Best bolt in subframe for the money????

[x-tream]

For the money what is the best bolt in front sub frame for a 67-69 camaro. Perferably a hub to hub kit.

[lil427z]

www.martzchassis.net
is a good choise. :thumbsup:
rick kirkindall :)

[Mean 69]

Currently, I'd say a modified stock frame, with well thought out parts that compliment the rear suspension. For now, anyway. The ATS solution holds a lot of promise, it improves some of the inherent geometry issues, and allows the use of contemporary brakes. You will get a ton of opinions on this and that, but at this point, I feel that a well executed stock unit will kepp up with, or out-do any of the aftermarket frames, for a fraction of the price. Pretty good value.

Mark

[Payton King]

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Everyone has different performance goals and budgets. I am using a 21st century subframe with C5 stuff. They are a sponsor on this site.

Payton

[TravisB]

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Everyone has different performance goals and budgets. I am using a 21st century subframe with C5 stuff. They are a sponsor on this site.

Payton

there set up does look very nice

[Steve1968LS2]

Best Subframe (IMO) - the 21st Century deal, a close second is Wayne Due

Best Subframe on a budget.. modified stock

"for the money" is such a relative term.. for the lowbuck approach you can't beat a well done stocker.. If you take $$$ out of the equation then see my first comment.

Also, there are several new front subs on the horizon from DSE, lateral dynamics and more.. but for now my statement stands :)

[XcYZ]

http://www.lateral-g.net/products/21stCenturyStreetMachines/21stCSM

[Rob07002]

Currently, I'd say a modified stock frame, with well thought out parts that compliment the rear suspension. For now, anyway. The ATS solution holds a lot of promise, it improves some of the inherent geometry issues, and allows the use of contemporary brakes. You will get a ton of opinions on this and that, but at this point, I feel that a well executed stock unit will kepp up with, or out-do any of the aftermarket frames, for a fraction of the price. Pretty good value.

Mark

How can you say a fraction of the price when if you add up the cost of parts a new aftermkt jambony looks to be the better deal:

Tubular uppers and lowers = $700 avg
Rack & Pinion = $800 avg
Brakes = $1100 - 1700 Baer track's or Wilwood's 6 piston
Time to perform g-mod = ????
Misc, Ball joints, hardware, motor mounts = $300

$2900 conservatively, $3500 with upgrades

Maybe I'm missing something, but for the money wouldn't one be better off going w a new frame, that improves geometry, allows for wider tires, that bolts up, in a nice complete package. Plus what if you just want to go aftermkt, wow factor, or if existing frame is damaged?

For what its worth, I'll be buying an aftermkt frame when the time comes, Any updates on the DSE or other units coming out.

My $.02

[907rs]

Until there is a definitive head to head comparison by a third party, I say you're on your own.

As of yet, I've only seen performance/road tests published for a couple of manufacturers.

[Mkelcy]

How can you say a fraction of the price when if you add up the cost of parts a new aftermkt jambony looks to be the better deal:

Tubular uppers and lowers = $700 avg
Rack & Pinion = $800 avg
Brakes = $1100 - 1700 Baer track's or Wilwood's 6 piston
Time to perform g-mod = ????
Misc, Ball joints, hardware, motor mounts = $300

$2900 conservatively, $3500 with upgrades

Maybe I'm missing something, but for the money wouldn't one be better off going w a new frame, that improves geometry, allows for wider tires, that bolts up, in a nice complete package. Plus what if you just want to go aftermkt, wow factor, or if existing frame is damaged?

For what its worth, I'll be buying an aftermkt frame when the time comes, Any updates on the DSE or other units coming out.

My $.02


In a budget build, you can reuse the stock UCAs & LCAs - so knock off $700.

I wouldn't do a R&P in a budget build, just get a good box, say $350, knock off another $450.

Brakes are going to be the same from stock to aftermarket subframe, but you can do LS1 13" brakes on a stock subframe for under $500.

Time to perform G Mod? - Please we're hobbyists!

Misc, Ball joints, hardware, motor mounts = $300 - okay

You forgot DSE or GW UCA & LCA bushings, a good sway bar, shocks and springs and solid subframe to body mount bushings - Say $900.

So I can do a first class rebuild of a stock subframe, with a new fast ratio steering box, 13" LS1 brakes, aftermarket Delrin or Delalum UCA and LCA bushings, a sway bar, rebuilt steering linkage, new shocks and springs and solid subframe to body bushings for about $2,200. It will accept 245-45-17's and handles extremely well, as this is exactly the setup I have on my car now.

I've ordered the 21st Century subframe, and let me tell you, by the time all is said and done, it'll be well in excess of $6,000 before it hits the road and that's trying to do it inexpensively. If you have 21st Century supply the C5 suspension bits and brakes, you're looking at close to $7,000 before even thinking about their $1,800 headers, which they say are needed with their subframe.

So which is the better bang for the buck? Don't misunderstand me, if you're doing a price is no object performance car (sort of my current project), the aftermarket subframes are probably the way to go. But you can get wonderful performance with a stock subframe and control arms put together with well chosen after market parts.

[Mean 69]

How can you say a fraction of the price when if you add up the cost of parts a new aftermkt jambony looks to be the better deal:

You forgot to factor in one very, very important aspect: performance. Don't disregard the strength of the stock frame, in and of itself. It is a hell of a lot more rigid than folks give it credit for, and not as heavy as one might think. The rack unit that you listed is not possible, there is no good way to convert to R&P in the stock frame/rear steer configuration. But, a good reworked steering box and good links will make you believe you have one, the feel is perfect, and the response is crisp. Plus, you can do it in stages if you are on a time-budget.

Believe me, I agree that a really good aftermarket solution is necessary for ultimate performance, we will be making one in the near future that will be a bit different than the others out there, but the proposition is not cheap by any means. You would really be surprised what a good upgrade to the stock stuff will muster though, don't look only at cost, and especially not at "bling."

Mark

[Edward Bednar]

I know that cost is an important factor in driving the decision about your upgrades.I can't tell you the number of people though who have called us though complaining that they've spent $4500.00 on other's upgrades and their impression is that it hasn't made a substantial difference. This obvioiusly is very frustrating to the customer.Our subframe was packaged to provide what we felt was a significant upgrade at a reasonable price. I offer to any prospective customer the chance to drive our test car and make up their own mind about it's performance characteristics. In our shop we now have a saying. If they drive it they buy it. It 's that true.
Steve Rupp should about now be getting his package.Once installed he has promised me he'll flog it and that's what we invite. You'll get those updates sometime in the future in PHR.
MKelcy has weighed in and I appreciate that and his order. I hope Mike I didn't give you the impression that you absolutely need our headers.The reason we provide headers is so you have the option of a no hassle install. The packaging of the C5 suspension in the tight confines of the 1st Gen Camaro makes packaging headers very difficult. My chief fabricator has been making headers for somewhere around twenty five years and it took him twice as long to fab up on a couple of versions as he originally thought. The headers are a stepped racing header. They provide great low end torque and high end horsepower. Most of our customers run significant power plants with signifcant performance in mind and to choke off the motor with a set of headers doesn't make much sense. Our headers are competitive with the prices of similar headers in the marketplace. Also you can change the spark plugs without having to remove the headers.Believe it or not alot of custom aftermarket headers can't make this claim.We also have headers for nearly any drivetrain you want to run which is unusual as well.I have had the guys over at the engine shop run motors with ours versus other aftermarket headers and they say they are finding significant performance gains. Again I know price is important but getting your money's worth is just as well.
Scott put up our featured add coming up in the next couple of months.It shows our intent to provde all kinds of options to upgrading the 1st gen.It truly is a system since you can do as little or as much as you'd like and in your own time frame. The system was also designed to provide for an ease of installation by you and your buddies with some versions being able to be installed in a weekend or two including the front subframe and and most of our rear end options including the medium tub kit.
The 1st gen system is nearly complete and the second gen is on the way with Chevelles soon to follow.
I hope as time passes our customers will be able to relay to you firsthand the value in our products.
Ed

[awr68]

The rack unit that you listed is not possible, there is no good way to convert to R&P in the stock frame/rear steer configuration.

I disagree, I own Unisteer's R&P kit (http://www.unisteer.com/product.php?productid=16218&cat=250&page=1) for the first gen camaro and honestly love the fitment and extra header clearance it allows. I have yet to drive the car, but if works as good as it bolted right up it is by far the best kit available...with very, very little bump steer...unlike the others! It doesn't hang down below the x-member and cleared a standard oil pan too...it appears someone did their homework on this one!

[Rob07002]

In a budget build, you can reuse the stock UCAs & LCAs - so knock off $700.

I wouldn't do a R&P in a budget build, just get a good box, say $350, knock off another $450.

Brakes are going to be the same from stock to aftermarket subframe, but you can do LS1 13" brakes on a stock subframe for under $500.

Time to perform G Mod? - Please we're hobbyists!

Misc, Ball joints, hardware, motor mounts = $300 - okay

You forgot DSE or GW UCA & LCA bushings, a good sway bar, shocks and springs and solid subframe to body mount bushings - Say $900.

So I can do a first class rebuild of a stock subframe, with a new fast ratio steering box, 13" LS1 brakes, aftermarket Delrin or Delalum UCA and LCA bushings, a sway bar, rebuilt steering linkage, new shocks and springs and solid subframe to body bushings for about $2,200. It will accept 245-45-17's and handles extremely well, as this is exactly the setup I have on my car now.

I've ordered the 21st Century subframe, and let me tell you, by the time all is said and done, it'll be well in excess of $6,000 before it hits the road and that's trying to do it inexpensively. If you have 21st Century supply the C5 suspension bits and brakes, you're looking at close to $7,000 before even thinking about their $1,800 headers, which they say are needed with their subframe.

So which is the better bang for the buck? Don't misunderstand me, if you're doing a price is no object performance car (sort of my current project), the aftermarket subframes are probably the way to go. But you can get wonderful performance with a stock subframe and control arms put together with well chosen after market parts.


Don't get me wrong I hear what your saying. I agree 100% that you can make a stock sub perform extremely well with fairly economical upgrades, but its comparing apples to oranges.... The point I'm trying to make is if you tried to recreate an aftermkt SF with a R&P, tubular uppers and lowers, sway bar, brakes and all the other added bennies ONLY using a stock Subframe Core, the price would be very close...... In other words if you want all the Cool stuff whether or not the benefits are very noticable your probably better off going aftermkt..... Subframes like 21st Century and Wayne Due are in a different catagory IMO, I'm just talking one or two levels above stock.... Like a Martz, or Chassisworks, or even Fatman for that matter. I personally would rather chuck a rusty piece and replace with fresh new metal, even if it doesn't blow away an upgraded stock sub....

[x-tream]

The reason i asked the question is my car doesn't have a front frame to start with. so regardless i have to buy a front frame. and i am not looking for a stock frame with new bushings. it would like some good handling.

[Rob07002]

I guess you really didn't get an answer to your question.... I suppose right now do to the lack of any real performance numbers its left up to personal preference and budget. Some will say a well tweaked stock sub will beat most aftermkts, with a Wayne due's C5 and 21st Century or C.A.R.S sub being the exception. If money is not a concern then you won't go wrong with the three mentioned above, if your on a budget, like most then it depends on what you want. Till there is hard proof from a track test or some sort of subframe "shootout" speculation and personal pref abounds....

[Stuart Adams]

DSE sub that is coming. :thumbsup: :yes: :yes:

[Steve1968LS2]

Until there is a definitive head to head comparison by a third party, I say you're on your own.

As of yet, I've only seen performance/road tests published for a couple of manufacturers.

Well we will be putting the 21st Century deal though the paces.. It came in the other day and it is one well made piece.. I will snap some pics.

As for the headers.. on the non lowered frame I don't see why you couldn't run your own headers or have some made. But they are NICE headers, stepped and equal length with nice collectors..

A head to head comparisson would never work unless it was done with the same car the same driver and the same everything cept the sub.. Not exactly an easy task to do (swapping frames at the track).. so many variables.

The best way is to outfit a car and run it though the cones..

And there is NOTHING wrong with a well done stock subframe..

[JamesJ]

DSE sub that is coming. :thumbsup: :yes: :yes:
Thats what I am waiting for.

[x-tream]

DSE sub??? were do you get info on that???

Or what do you know about it????

[XcYZ]

It's been in the works for a long time, but I couldn't wait any longer and went with a Wayne Due subframe.

No date has been set for availability.

[Stuart Adams]

Patents and things are taking time, should be cool, considering their suspension engineering experience at GM and learning off what else has been used before. :thumbsup:

[x-tream]

What about Fat man Fabriication hub-hub kit?? looks like the cheepest so far.

[Steve1968LS2]

What about Fat man Fabriication hub-hub kit?? looks like the cheepest so far.

Hmmm.. well...

Have you considered the new spindle from ATS????


So, what your looking for is the cheapest?

[mazspeed]

What about Fat man Fabriication hub-hub kit?? looks like the cheepest so far.
I have that installed on mine. I heard it was pretty good, but will see. I am curious if you can change the front A arms on the fatman and stick the DSE one's on. One thing I noticed was that the arms with the bushings have no greese fittings on there.

[x-tream]

So, what your looking for is the cheapest?

No I am not looking for the cheepest. I am looking for them best one for the best price. This happens to be the best price i have found so i am wondering how it compares to others. if someone was to come on here ans say don't get that one it is cheep because nothing fits, it is worse then stocker, or something like that, then great, i know to stay away form it.

[Stuart Adams]

I would not skimp in this area. That is where the DRIVE in driving your comes in. It all depends what you want. I'm not saying you should buy the most expensive part but, if what you want is 1K more, buy it. That savings is tittley winks compared to all the moolah and hours that go into these cars. It's not like you want to be changing subs all the time.

[comp-spec]

Im running a fatman in the orange 67 and I had trouble with the motor,sway bar, streering joints and rack :mad:

Im doing a 69 with fatman same thing :mad:

Im doing a 68 with Chris Aslton much nicer :D

Im also doing a 68 with Wayne Due nicer then both. :thumbsup:

[awr68]

Im running a fatman in the orange 67 and I had trouble with the motor,sway bar, streering joints and rack :mad:

Im doing a 69 with fatman same thing :mad:

Im doing a 68 with Chris Aslton much nicer :D

Im also doing a 68 with Wayne Due nicer then both. :thumbsup:

Business is good I take it!! :thumbsup:

[comp-spec]

Ya shop is very busy