When does a 69 Camaro cease to be a 69 camaro??

[tyoneal]

To Everyone:

In you all's opinion, how much can you change the body of a 69 Camaro, before it makes the lovers of such cars wince when they see it?

I know that the exterior is important for the optima challenge. It basically must look like what it is, or word there about.

I am having a hard times finding the, "line", on this.

Any thoughts?

"I leaning on the outer shape from a profile from the side, and from each end. Once someone who knows what to look for has a problem quickly deciding, then the line is crossed".

I look forward to hearing from everyone on this. Please be specific.

Thanks and take care,

Ty O'Neal

[rogue]

When an LSX powerplant is put in :lol:

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

when Baldwin Motion gets a hold of it.....:rofl:

[WSSix]

I'd have to say when you seriously change the body lines. I'm thinking fiberglass prostreet or funny car type bodies. Or many of the cafe racers from the 70s/80s. At those points, I believe it's more correct to say it started life as a 69 or mimics a 69. Subtle changes and refinements don't change it.

[Bakaruda]

I would say our cars(no matter what name is on them) are more like the new age streetrods. When people who are not car guys ask me what my car is. I say this, It was a 69 Barracuda. Now it is a streetrod. The only thing 69 on my car is the body.

[DFRESH]

I would say when the 80's snorkel hood scoop makes its appearance.

[phillym5]

I would say........ once the body is altered to the point it is unrecognizable...
But if the grill, head lights, fenders, and rear valance keep there original lines..(even if they are exaggerated) it still is a 69 camaro.

imo.

[mexMan]

As long as the body is made out of steel and it has a cool powerplant it's still a '69. I know why they love to use it, those side lines make it so hot and sexy. But I'm more a 67-68 Camaro guy, that's why I rather see Bad Penny over the Golden Coffin. But I'm more a functionality guy too, that's why rather drive the Golden Coffin over any of the leather seated and sound systems showcars.

Rouge: I'M GOLDEN COFFIN'S #1 FAN!

[nvr2fst]

I would say........ once the body is altered to the point it is unrecognizable...
But if the grill, head lights, fenders, and rear valance keep there original lines..(even if they are exaggerated) it still is a 69 camaro.

imo.

X2 although I dont have a problem with exaggerating certain body lines but from a close distance it still needs to look like a camaro. When Razor first came out you needed to really look at what they did (outside of the typical deck lid stuff and hood mods going on today) They widened the quarters, enhanced all the body line creases including adding a couple here and there and the way a car gets painted can also enhance the true camaro lines. Another example would be the G force Cuda, every piece was modified but in the end it still looked like a cuda representing its heritage. Over the next couple of years I feel that this is going to be the next phase of building custom cars. When you start getting into the body modifications that are typically "non removal" you need to take in consideration the cost. It becomes at times overwhelming and if your the guinea pig for that "new got to have it look" mod to go into production like CF fenders, quarters, etc. in the long run the following consumers will get it at a lower cost. The more custom parts parts go into production the more the custom builders need to go out of the box to the point the car IMO may become hideous. Ive been dealing with this on my car since its been at Ironworks from day one. I havent had any bad feedback on the mods yet..... but if there our opinions I would love to hear them.

Ty I returned your PM

[phillym5]

X2 although I dont have a problem with exaggerating certain body lines but from a close distance it still needs to look like a camaro. When Razor first came out you needed to really look at what they did (outside of the typical deck lid stuff and hood mods going on today) They widened the quarters, enhanced all the body line creases including adding a couple here and there and the way a car gets painted can also enhance the true camaro lines. Another example would be the G force Cuda, every piece was modified but in the end it still looked like a cuda representing its heritage. Over the next couple of years I feel that this is going to be the next phase of building custom cars. When you start getting into the body modifications that are typically "non removal" you need to take in consideration the cost. It becomes at times overwhelming and if your the guinea pig for that "new got to have it look" mod to go into production like CF fenders, quarters, etc. in the long run the following consumers will get it at a lower cost. The more custom parts parts go into production the more the custom builders need to go out of the box to the point the car IMO may become hideous. Ive been dealing with this on my car since its been at Ironworks from day one. I havent had any bad feedback on the mods yet..... but if there our opinions I would love to hear them.

Ty I returned your PM


I REALLY like the way yours is coming out. I did similar on my car (flaring the fender line).... but took a different route than yours. I CAN NOT WAIT to see yours done!!:wow:

[nvr2fst]

Also keep in mind it took years to get the performance aspect of the chassis and suspension mods to where it is today. We still have shops trying to achieve better geometry chassis, rear end setups and of course the motor builds to match. I still remember when I was younger the biggest body mod was smoothing the firewall. With all the aftermarket tail lamps, door handles, smooth glass, etc. becoming so popular you have to have the body match those components. Ex.- the wrong door handle or mirror on a stock door panel may look like crap but if the door was modified slightly for those addons you may have the next look.

[nvr2fst]

As long as the body is made out of steel and it has a cool powerplant it's still a '69. I know why they love to use it, those side lines make it so hot and sexy. But I'm more a 67-68 Camaro guy, that's why I rather see Bad Penny over the Golden Coffin. But I'm more a functionality guy too, that's why rather drive the Golden Coffin over any of the leather seated and sound systems showcars.

Rouge: I'M GOLDEN COFFIN'S #1 FAN!

Why does the body in your opinion need to made out of steel. No matter what type of panel structure your using (steel, CF, aluminum, fiberglass) doesnt affect the look of the body lines as to the original OPs question.

[GregWeld]

Ty --

That is such a difficult question to respond to "in writing" -- because the question you're asking is visual... some changes might look great while what seems to be a simple (hood scoop?) change might suck.

The only way you really know before the build is to have one of the guys do a rendering - post that up and see what people think.

I was trying to figure out why you asked the question in the first place - so had to assume that you're toying with body mods on your project... so that's why I said maybe to have a rendering done with what you're thinking.

I agree with an above post - when Motion got hold of something - they went for UGLY in the first degree... I don't care how 'rare' they are... sometimes 'rare' is rare because nobody wanted them then either! :woot:

[Kendall Burleson]

The car can have any material that make it look better(The 62 vette that the Roaster shop didn't hurt it look at all);) ;)

[nvr2fst]

I REALLY like the way yours is coming out. I did similar on my car (flaring the fender line).... but took a different route than yours. I CAN NOT WAIT to see yours done!!:wow:

There are certain things I like and there are certain things I dont like, hopefully when it all meshes together Ill be happy.

The stretching of the body lines is going to be a big hit IMO. Although Ive only come across a couple of builds with this starting from the Year one TA. I believe Rodger and Gonzo have something going on here and you knows what other car bodies it follows on. Cost is a major player for most consumers.
Weve been asked before if anybody would be interested in a Production Razor hood. Im not sure if that ever took off mostly because of cost. I feel Anvils costs on the CF parts they have are extremely reasonable. Most likely due to the fact that they know people will buy stock pieces in CF. Not speaking for Anvil, but IMO make a production piece that they feel only 5% of the market may buy would be tuff on profit margin. Trust me Ive asked Matt in the past, it not cheap.
Well all I can say is I see a poll starting on this.

[nvr2fst]

Greg, to all respect to what your asking I dont think Ty would want a rendering to be posted. There are some renderings out there with body mods. But as the saying goes... it looked good on paper. I think the more it gets done in "real time" the more opinions will come out. There has been only a few that have followed the look of there renderings on body mods. Most final cars Ive seen, one part or another changed from the original drawing or thought of modification that was intended including myself.

[fleetus macmullitz]

I would say when the 80's snorkel hood scoop makes its appearance.

Those were troubled times Doug. :eek:

[z4me69]

in my eyes the 69 camaro is the most beautiful car on the planet period .thats why i have 3. as far as changing the body lines. no need gm got it right for once and thats why the 69 is about the most popular muscle car on the planet :hail:

[chr2002ca]

When does a 69 Camaro cease to be a 69 camaro??


When you use a body manufactured in China.

[tyoneal]

To Everyone:

Thanks for the input so far. I know the question was vague and open ended, but that was the point, everyone will have an opinion.

All this being said, I'll add a few more items and see where these fall.

1) Many of the Builds being done now (I just used a 69 because I am working on one, but it can be any car for that matter for the question to be asked) look a lot like the "Base Car", on the outside, but look like something completely different once you get inside.

It was mentioned/hinting in some of the post that it lost it's identity once you couldn't tell want it is/was. That said, are some of the interiors technically a distraction, as you probably couldn't tell what car you were in, or at least what year of car it was? Thus, violation of the "Pro Touring" definition?

Pro-Touring technically is, "a old/vintage/classic car with updated driveline and suspension", that can handle as well or better than a modern sports car.

Isn't this correct?

As far as I know, the interior isn't part of that definition. Some of the "Classic", part of the Muscle cars is the design of the interior.

True or False?
============================
The Pro-touring car seems to be in a state of Evolution. The original definition seems somewhat out dated, as originally written. Now it is common to find larger/modified rear Spoilers, front Splitters, Functional Scoops, NACA ducts, Functional Brake Ducts etc. on, "Pro-Touring", cars.

As mentioned earlier the interior is also a part of this transformation, but sometimes even further along in the change.

Do we now accept these things as Pro-Touring, or are they another creature altogether? As performance becomes higher inside and out, and many of us now are running some kind of Roll Over Bar, or Cage thus rendering the rear seat useless, are we now becoming technically in the same league as the two seater sports cars, thus leaning more towards, "Grand Touring", or, "GT"? Like a Corvette, or racing cars in the GT1 form of racing?

Further, the cars in the higher end performing builds are using CF pretty regularly now days. On board, Zoned Fire Extinguishers, Data Acquisition Equipment, Cockpit Adjustable Boost and so on, are now really starting to incorporate true racing car amenities. Yes, we still have carpet, and most still have stereos, but many things now you cannot order even on a fairly high end car. The builds are becoming more, "Pro-Touring Super-cars".

Is that really what some of the cars are at this point?

3. In the past, "Hot Rods", segmented, into "Street Rods", "Street Machines", and so on and so forth.

Is this type of segmentation something that will, or should start happening in the Pro-Touring arena at this point? (Not to exclude, just to identify clearer)

4. Some of us have chosen the vintage, "Trans Am", Racer as a dominant or heavily influential part of it's design of look. Thus dawning the Vintage appearance of a 1960's Race Car, with the modern technology and equipment of contemporary Road Racing Cars.

Are these in somewhat of there own segmentation?

At this point having, "Pro Touring", "Pro Touring Supercar", and "Pro Touring Race Car"?

5. I have really enjoyed GM bring back the Camaro and it's reverse styling being a new car with vintage design hints.

As I look at the profile of the 2009 Camaro and if I were to try to describe the shape and style of it to someone else, as part of that description, I would say that it appears to have a slight, "Chopped", look to it of maybe an 1-1.5 inches.

As most people know who have enjoyed cars for a long time know, as people started modifying the cars to become Hot Rods, there was a point down the road when chopping, channeling, and other major shaping techniques started to take place. We appear to be on that same cusp now with Pro Touring.

What are your thoughts on these types of modifying techniques, as they relate to the Pro Touring styles of builds we have based much of our designs on?

Are they just a logical evolution in the realm of Pro Touring, or are these changes so vast as to look at the cars, and think the person is a douche for screwing up a scarce and beautiful muscle car?

or

Is this type of treatment just another option in Pro Touring building options?

I will see if I can add a poll to graphically show some support in these topics.

Thanks for reading.

Ty O'Neal

Ok, I'm a 'Tard. Can someone post a poll with the follow choices?

Should, "Pro Touring", be segmented in someway to help identify the Type or Class of Pro Touring project?

If so,

Which classes do you favor? Pro Touring, Pro Touring Super Car, Pro Touring Race Car, None of the above, all of the above.

If you think that Pro Touring is the ONLY phrase that should be used, is there anything that should be out of bounds doing a Pro Touring Build? Modifying the Interior completely, Drastic Body modifications. (Chop, Channeling, etc.)

Should a "Pro Touring", Car design try to stop where it would be considered hacking up a nice Muscle car?

On any of your responses, feel free to write extensively with your thoughts, so that you have had the opportunity to really consider the questions presented to you.

[tyoneal]

X2 although I dont have a problem with exaggerating certain body lines but from a close distance it still needs to look like a camaro. When Razor first came out you needed to really look at what they did (outside of the typical deck lid stuff and hood mods going on today) They widened the quarters, enhanced all the body line creases including adding a couple here and there and the way a car gets painted can also enhance the true camaro lines. Another example would be the G force Cuda, every piece was modified but in the end it still looked like a cuda representing its heritage. Over the next couple of years I feel that this is going to be the next phase of building custom cars. When you start getting into the body modifications that are typically "non removal" you need to take in consideration the cost. It becomes at times overwhelming and if your the guinea pig for that "new got to have it look" mod to go into production like CF fenders, quarters, etc. in the long run the following consumers will get it at a lower cost. The more custom parts parts go into production the more the custom builders need to go out of the box to the point the car IMO may become hideous. Ive been dealing with this on my car since its been at Ironworks from day one. I havent had any bad feedback on the mods yet..... but if there our opinions I would love to hear them.

Ty I returned your PM
============================

I looked for a PM, and didn't find anything. Any Ideas??

[deuce_454]

Im my oppinion it stops being a camaro when someone can say.. i built the frame for that thing.... i mean a schwartz full chassis camaro.. is a schwartz 2009 with a vintage camaro body on it...

so for me it looses its identity when major parts of the engineering gets replaced... things like the floor pan, subframe and bodylines need to be original...

widened fenders, minitubs etc is fine as ling as its modified camaro pieces, piecutting, sectioning, chopped roof or whatever kustomcar trick is played will IMHO change it from being a camaro.. to bearing the name of whoever built it...

[deuce_454]

another thing.... Some asswipe walked up to me a while back and said my malibu didnt qualify as pro touring but was a joe-touring car....

now ive sunk big money in it.. it has full aftermarket suspension, global west LCA, SC&C UCA. GW springs, double adj Varishocks, delalums, 1-5/8 GW sway bar.. boxed frame, solid body mounts, Currie curectrac rear controll arms, Fays 2 watts link, moser rear bear 12 inch rear brakes, ATS spindles, 13 inch Touring classics front brakes, hydra-boost, Heads, intake and Cam LS1 engine.. twistmashine paddleshifter, full leather interior, recaro seats and forgeline 18 inch wheels, two tone paint, adjustable spoiler, front splitter....but being a 79 malibu somhow disqualified it as being a Pro Touring car...


so can someone please tell me what ive built then if it isnt pro touring.... do is really need to be a 1. gen f-body????? WTF!

[XcYZ]

another thing.... Some asswipe walked up to me a while back and said my malibu didnt qualify as pro touring but was a joe-touring car....

now ive sunk big money in it.. it has full aftermarket suspension, global west LCA, SC&C UCA. GW springs, double adj Varishocks, delalums, 1-5/8 GW sway bar.. boxed frame, solid body mounts, Currie curectrac rear controll arms, Fays 2 watts link, moser rear bear 12 inch rear brakes, ATS spindles, 13 inch Touring classics front brakes, hydra-boost, Heads, intake and Cam LS1 engine.. twistmashine paddleshifter, full leather interior, recaro seats and forgeline 18 inch wheels, two tone paint, adjustable spoiler, front splitter....but being a 79 malibu somhow disqualified it as being a Pro Touring car...

so can someone please tell me what ive built then if it isnt pro touring.... do is really need to be a 1. gen f-body????? WTF!

Seriously? I would take that as someone who's jealous of what you've built.

[chr2002ca]

another thing.... Some asswipe walked up to me a while back and said my malibu didnt qualify as pro touring but was a joe-touring car....

now ive sunk big money in it.. it has full aftermarket suspension, global west LCA, SC&C UCA. GW springs, double adj Varishocks, delalums, 1-5/8 GW sway bar.. boxed frame, solid body mounts, Currie curectrac rear controll arms, Fays 2 watts link, moser rear bear 12 inch rear brakes, ATS spindles, 13 inch Touring classics front brakes, hydra-boost, Heads, intake and Cam LS1 engine.. twistmashine paddleshifter, full leather interior, recaro seats and forgeline 18 inch wheels, two tone paint, adjustable spoiler, front splitter....but being a 79 malibu somhow disqualified it as being a Pro Touring car...


so can someone please tell me what ive built then if it isnt pro touring.... do is really need to be a 1. gen f-body????? WTF!


Your car is pro-touring all the way. Don't pay any attention to that dumb sh_t.

[ironworks]

Im my oppinion it stops being a camaro when someone can say.. i built the frame for that thing.... i mean a schwartz full chassis camaro.. is a schwartz 2009 with a vintage camaro body on it...

so for me it looses its identity when major parts of the engineering gets replaced... things like the floor pan, subframe and bodylines need to be original...

widened fenders, minitubs etc is fine as ling as its modified camaro pieces, piecutting, sectioning, chopped roof or whatever kustomcar trick is played will IMHO change it from being a camaro.. to bearing the name of whoever built it...

So its OK to cut up certain parts but not others. So was Smokie Yunicks Chevellle not a Chevelle. Or how about Big Red, is that a Camaro. Or was Bob Johnsons Cuda not really a Cuda.

This whole argument is like saying my truck is not a truck since it has no bed floor......:D :D :D :D

[tones2SS]

another thing.... Some asswipe walked up to me a while back and said my malibu didnt qualify as pro touring but was a joe-touring car....

now ive sunk big money in it.. it has full aftermarket suspension, global west LCA, SC&C UCA. GW springs, double adj Varishocks, delalums, 1-5/8 GW sway bar.. boxed frame, solid body mounts, Currie curectrac rear controll arms, Fays 2 watts link, moser rear bear 12 inch rear brakes, ATS spindles, 13 inch Touring classics front brakes, hydra-boost, Heads, intake and Cam LS1 engine.. twistmashine paddleshifter, full leather interior, recaro seats and forgeline 18 inch wheels, two tone paint, adjustable spoiler, front splitter....but being a 79 malibu somhow disqualified it as being a Pro Touring car...


so can someone please tell me what ive built then if it isnt pro touring.... do is really need to be a 1. gen f-body????? WTF!

You should have laughed in his face and asked him what he considered pro-touring. :mad:
The Malibu sounds pro-touring to me!:cheers:

[70rs]

The Malibu sounds PT to me also. If you see the douche again give him a smack in the back of the melon for me please?:rofl:

[tyoneal]

another thing.... Some asswipe walked up to me a while back and said my malibu didnt qualify as pro touring but was a joe-touring car....

now ive sunk big money in it.. it has full aftermarket suspension, global west LCA, SC&C UCA. GW springs, double adj Varishocks, delalums, 1-5/8 GW sway bar.. boxed frame, solid body mounts, Currie curectrac rear controll arms, Fays 2 watts link, moser rear bear 12 inch rear brakes, ATS spindles, 13 inch Touring classics front brakes, hydra-boost, Heads, intake and Cam LS1 engine.. twistmashine paddleshifter, full leather interior, recaro seats and forgeline 18 inch wheels, two tone paint, adjustable spoiler, front splitter....but being a 79 malibu somhow disqualified it as being a Pro Touring car...


so can someone please tell me what ive built then if it isnt pro touring.... do is really need to be a 1. gen f-body????? WTF!
=================
Deuce:

If you like your car, tell the Turd Head that said something demeaning to you about your car to, "Go Piss up a Rope."

Don't feel obligated to spend extra money for anyones approval other than your own.

A car is a personal thing that is shaped by you, your funding, your spouse or a mixture of things. (.... and I have my Wife's Permission To Say So.) ;-)

Take Care and, "Nil Illigitum Carborundum".

Ty

[deuce_454]

"Nil Illigitum Carborundum".

Ty

LOOOL.. if my medical latin isnt mistaken.. that translates into: Never let the bastards grind you down!! :thumbsup:

[deuce_454]

So its OK to cut up certain parts but not others. So was Smokie Yunicks Chevellle not a Chevelle. Or how about Big Red, is that a Camaro. Or was Bob Johnsons Cuda not really a Cuda.

This whole argument is like saying my truck is not a truck since it has no bed floor......:D :D :D :D

exactly my point...

im not saying it isnt a truck... im saying its YOUR truck, and not any repainted, new wheels.. pickup.. and if somone were to sell it it would say "ironworks pro touring truck" and not "68 chevy puckup" in the ads headline..... just as everyone knows the Bob Johnson cuda, or "Big Red" and yould put them up for sale as such... im not being negative, im just stating that the GM built, boby by fisher camaro, stops being body by fisher, and gm built, when somone like you puts it on their own chassis and changes the body... its an Ironworks car...

(i know it isnt a 68.. but I cant remember the year off my head, just the crazy cool chassis and stack injected engineengine)

[DocJr]

I've only read the first page of responses on this one, I'll read the rest when I'm done giving mine haha.

Being one of the artists or designers on this forum, a young one yes, a newb yes, I want to contribute to this post.

I agree with what some guys are saying, for example "My car started out as a '69 Olds" However....it's still an Olds haha.

I don't think there is a "Line" and if you think there is a line, that's fine, but you changed you car as soon as you put on that new set of Rushforth wheels. If you feel wheels are too miniscule...As soon as you took off that polished trim, or fabricated a custom scoop of some sorts, you changed it. Crossing the line is just that, changing a piece of history, anything different from what the original designers penned it out to be.

I feel crossing the line is all or nothing, theres no in between, you crossed it or you didn't. The Baldwin Motion cars, The Ringbrothers, they not only cross it, they make it disappear, many of us just take a small step over it (Wheels, subtle mods) but then you have to ask...Does it matter?

[GregWeld]

I feel crossing the line is all or nothing, theres no in between, you crossed it or you didn't. The Baldwin Motion cars, The Ringbrothers, they not only cross it, they make it disappear, many of us just take a small step over it (Wheels, subtle mods) but then you have to ask...Does it matter?


And there ya have it.... Does it matter. I say NOPE... as long as the owner/builder loves it. Then who cares what other people think. It's your's
do as you feel.

It's the reason I quit doing NCRS Vettes... all they care about is what someone else thinks your car should be. If that's what they want to do with their car - I'm fine with that, I just don't have to be a part of it. Would I criticize them... nope. Would I cut up a numbers matching "real car" - no... but I'll cut up a "non collector version". Doing this stuff is a lot like ART.. beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people (damn few :rofl: ) think the Motion cars were the most beautiful thing they've ever seen. Great! I'm happy for them!

:lateral: :woot:

[tyoneal]

LOOOL.. if my medical latin isnt mistaken.. that translates into: Never let the bastards grind you down!! :thumbsup:

You got that translated spot on! It seems to be exceptionally helpful when your out in public and you just have to say something that fits.

Sometimes a Bastard needs to be called a Bastard, and nothing less. People who verbally "Dis" your ride that you have poured you Blood, Sweat, and Tears, not to mention a truck load of money on, need to be called out.

That's my .02. (I know your not suppose to give a sh*t what they think, but it still make my rear end red when it happens by a couple of jealous idiots)

Anyway, thanks for translating.

Ty

[phillym5]

do a google search on "rappers 69 camaro", that should give you a pretty good idea.

I just did and some pretty bad ass Camaro's popped right up. :D

[69x22]

When an LSX powerplant is put in :lol:

When it doesn't have a rear spoiler!
LOL!

[XLexusTech]

When it gets to the point where someone has to as themselves "What is it" that's a good hint>

I read the announcemet by the OP and saw his rendering... IMHO his "She Devil" is a hybrid and no longer anything but, a uniquie creation of its own.

Therfore by my measure its no longer a 69 camaro... its a she devil.
:cheers:

[Jim Nilsen]

When the VIN tag is no longer accepted as the way to title it and the inspection station says it doesn't look like a Camaro would be the point at which it will be a problem and then and only then should it be one.

My car is no Camaro for the most part but it looks like one because it is one!

At least everyone say's it is.

[Vegas69]

Scar...end thread.

[Matt@BOS]

Scar...end thread.

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one. Since Scar isn't technically a '69 Camaro, I'm going to post something that isn't technically a '69 Camaro either

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo103/69MSA/DSC_0627.jpg

...end of thread.

Matt