1969 Firebird Project - SR71

[Josh69]

I'm continuing this from the project introductions, but at this point, SR71 probably isn't the best moniker. I went with the original Parchment interior and didn't go as far with the monotone scheme as I originally envisioned. In any case, it'll be easier for me to find it this way, LOL!

The car ended up being a bolt-on style car built on a reasonable budget and done mostly by yours truly. I chose the '69 T/A as a source of inspiration and used a few of those styling elements, along with painting the front bumper body colored much like a '70 GTO. It looks infinitely better that way, IMHO. It must not look too dated, I was recently asked if it was a new Challenger....well, let's assume that guy knew NOTHING about cars, HAHA!

[Josh69]

The car came with new quarter skins, one already tacked on so we worked with what we had. The outer wheelhouses were replaced along with the trunk outer dropoffs. The rear valance was partially missing, so we grafted on a '69 Camaro rear which had the added benefit of a more flushed license plate. I used the Camaro fuel door/license plate holder also. I also had the PONTIAC holes welded and covered above the bumper for a cleaner look.

[Josh69]

The original doors were in overall good condition, but needed a patch in each corner. I didn't want to use aftermarket doors if possible because of the thinner metal...or so I'm told. As long as the doors were off, we rebuilt the hinges and made sure everything was cleaned up and coated with epoxy and sealer. I got a good pass. ft fender from Franks Pontiac, and we patched the drivers side on the bottom by the door. We fitted the T/A heat extractors after everything was blocked out and sealed.

[Josh69]

I was really torn on the T/A hood versus the '400' style hood. I felt that the '400' hood was actually a better fit design-wise when used with the T/A fender extractors. They perfectly mimic the '400' scoops, and the T/A hood was just kind of awkward to me. John Haley here in town has a real T/A hood and is making the molds for carbon fiber versions with it...so I may change my tune once I see one of those babies. In any case, with the T/A spoiler and fender extractors some may think it odd to see a '400' hood on there, but that was my line of thinking, fwiw. :_paranoid So I picked up a new '400' hood from Goodmark. I ended up buying two rear spoilers. The first one was twisted, the 2nd one was better...but not by much and took a bit of work to live with. I hear they have an ABS version out, that has to be better than the fiberglass ones.

[NovaBlue71]

Nice project,keep us updated when you get color on it. Joe :thumbsup:

[Josh69]

It's already in color Novablue71, I'm just late to the party with the build thread!

In order to make sure everything was fairly square, I replaced the broken rear leafs with DSE's 2" drop leafs and we welded in the Global West tubular subfame connectors and fitted the solid aluminum body bushings before the majority of the bodywork was done. I had to replace all the hardware for the front leaf spring cups, the bolts were turning in the clips. We ended up cutting access holes in the floor then covering those back up. Since the car had to be mobile during the bodywork phase, the drivetrain was left in place.
What started as a quick quarters, prep and paint job, turned into a full blown restoration somehow....still not sure how or when that exact change happened. But I'm pretty sure it was before I spent two weekends in 95F heat in a blasting suit and $500 in blasting materials later underneath the car.:willy: Some may say I was committed at that point...others would say I needed to be committed. I was glad I blasted the entire bottom though, we found some pinholes so we welded in new front floorpans. Once everything was sealed and epoxied, we sprayed the bottom satin black.

Here is the car finally in paint, and on it's way home from the painter...I think it was about 8F that day...but I was glad to avoid any salt spray from the winter roads. Trust me, it's not as dull as it looks in the pics...it was covered in dust and my old crappy digital camera, I think 2megapixels was all. The gentleman that did all the bodywork and paint is a neighbor of my parents, and one of the few guys around that still has the patience to do the necessary metal work on these old cars. Speaking of patience, it took a full year to get to this point.

[Josh69]

Along with the DSE 2" drop rear leafs, I went with a set of Hotchkis 2" drop BBC front springs. I probably could've used SBC springs, but figured the Pontiac mill weighed about in the middle of the two. I went for the firmer rate and could probably stand to cut a half a coil out, it sits a little higher in the front than I'd like but still has a bit of rake to it. I chose not to use coilovers because there just isn't enough spring to do the job with these heavy motors. I chose Speed Tech's tubular upper control arms with del-a-lum bushings and performed the Gulstrand mod in conjuction with these. Since I wasn't doing coilovers, I had the original LCA's powdercoated and installed del-a-lum bushings as well. I also used Koni single adjust shocks front and rear. I've had good luck with these in my past BMW's. To round out the front suspension, I picked up a 1-1/8" hollow Hotchkis sway bar.

Since I wasn't thrilled with the design of the Firebird steering linkage, I switched to a Camaro set up and had the center link powdercoated, along with the steering arms. I picked up the complete front end rebuild kit from DSE with all the MOOG goodies, etc. I painted the stock drum spindles with cast iron paint after the local machine shop drilled and threaded them for the Wilwood brackets. I also picked up a reman'd Iroc Z high ratio steering gear from the local parts house and a set of Lee's hose adapters to use the original rebuilt power steering pump.

I got one of the initial sets of 6-piston Wilwoods with the 12.2" rotors from Frank and had them shipped out in Red. I used a matching set of rear 4-piston Wilwoods with the Explorer style E-brake and the Wilwood billet manual master cylinder. I used stainless hard lines from Inline Tubing and braided lines with the Wilwood prop valve, and finished it off with a Lokar E-brake cable set.

[Josh69]

The rearend is a Moser 12 bolt I ordered through Frank as well. It runs a Detroit Tru Trac with 3:73 gears and 30 spline alloy axles with 1/2 studs front and rear. I went with the Torino style big bearings so no need for c-clip eliminators. The housing is narrowed for future expansion to minitubs if desired. It's as narrow as they could go with the spring pad in the stock location. This allowed a deep offset on the American Racing TTII's for that minitub look with a 10" rim. I was able to fit 275's on the 18x10's since we trimmed the quarters when they got welded up. The car has 18x8's up front with 235's and wears BFG KDW2's.

[waynieZ]

Nice job the car looks good.

[Josh69]

Motorvation

When I got the car it had the original 350 and was supposedly rebuilt. It ran, but I drained about 2 gallons of gas/oil out of the pan and knew the bearings were toast. The previous owner kept flooding it in his attempts to move it around the storage areas over his period of ownership.

That brought up an interesting dilemma. It's a Pontiac, so pretty much any displacement block will fit right in it's place. What to do, what to do. A stroked 400 or 455 seemed too easy. I felt somewhat required, or rather, possesed, to do something with the original block since it was still serviceable. About this time Pacific Performance Racing had some cranks made with a 4" stroke and small journal 3" mains. This was a 428 crank essentially. When combined with a 350 block bored .030 it would produce 383 cubes. That seemed like a match made in heaven, and you can imagine the quizzical looks I get when I tell people it's a 383 and they are clearly looking at a Poncho. Ace at PPR just so happened to have built one for High Performance Pontiac magazine. It churned out 462hp and 446ft lbs of torque. More torque than any stock stroke 400 with similar modifications could hope to manage. Since this was a street car with 18" radials, I figured that would fit the bill. I called Ace and had his ultra light balanced rotating assembly sent to me. His motor had a Crower hydraulic roller. I chose to run a Crower hydraulic flat tappet, but had the same essential lift and duration. His heads are fully ported iron 76cc heads. Mine are pocket ported and milled 67cc closed chamber '67 GTO heads I had with big 2.11 and 1.77 stainless valves. As fate would have it, the '69 350 blocks were blessed with valve reliefs on both sides which helps unshroud these monster valves. I don't know what the output is, but it should be in the neighborhood of 450hp. An otherwise completely stock version of the stroker still managed 440ft lbs, so torque is abundant in the little 350 that could.

The machine work and short block assembly was handled by a local machinist I've used frequently and is a big Buick guy, so he understood some of the nuances of properly building a Pontiac.

The specs:
.030 over 1969 354 Pontiac, 3.905 bore
4.00 Tomahawk crank, ultralight forged pistons and rods with ARP bolts
Fully balanced and blueprinted
Stock windage tray and pan
1967 #670 heads, 2.11/1.77 valves with guideplates and 3/8" studs with Crower springs, milled to 67cc
PRW 1.52 roller rockers
Static CR 10.75:1
Crower 292 Hi-Draulic Hauler Cam, (236/242 @ .050) .516/.523 total lift
Tomahawk single plane intake
PPR Aluminum valley cover
Quick Fuel/Pro Form 750cfm dp built by Mark Sullens for E85
RobbMC 550hp Pontiac mechanical fuel pump
PRW aluminum equal flow water pump
R.A.R.E aluminum pulley set, clear powder coated
Professional Products Harmonic Balancer
Hedman 1-3/4 ceramic coated headers

To round out the exhaust I went with Flowmaster's American Thunder system because I like the sound of Flows and I liked the stainless tips. With the rowdy cam and flows, it has just the right amount of attitude. That might be an understatment for some. :unibrow:

[Josh69]

The easy choice for the transmission was a Tremec TKO600. I went with a .64 OD. Hindsight being 20/20, I would either have chosen some 4:11's or a .82 OD to make 5th gear more useful at 55mph. I think if the car ever gets EFI, that would help when cruising under 2K. A double pumper probably wasn't the wisest choice for economy. I suppose doing 55mph in this thing wasn't the main idea and once I get a wideband O2 in there, my tune should improve as well.

I got the entire kit from Keisler since my car was an automatic. What nobody knew, is that the pedal set the catalogs sell only fits a Camaro pedal bracket...the part under the steering column. I had to pull the Firebird bracket out and weld on some tubing to get the correct width for the pedal bushings to ride in. Ah...the joys of a Firebird restoration.

I don't have too many pics of the transmission, so here are some of my buddy Sean and I getting it ready for lift off and into the patiently awaiting engine bay.

[Josh69]

The electrical portion was what I feared most. And that may explain why I am still using the original fuse block and interior harness, as well as the front light harness. A SPO's attempt at a one wire alternator and jimmy rigged wipers left the original engine harness in a pretty serious mess. Exacerbated by the awfully dreadful OEM buss fuse connection for distributing power...I had no choice but to dive in. Out came the manuals and wiring diagrams. I was installing an MSD ignition and an HEI distributor so a few more changes were in order. I ended up using a Jeg's distribution block with all new fusible links and tossing the majority of the stock harness. I installed a trunk mounted battery along with a remote solenoid since the headers made accessing the starter impossible and I wanted to use my bump starter for initially setting the valve lash. Someday if I still have the car and am feeling the need for self induced torture, I may convert the whole car to the new Isis multiplex system, that seems nifty...albeit confusing. But what the heck, I built a car in my garage...what could be worse? :_paranoid

I also chose to run a set of Spaghetti Engineering's Digitails. Man are they cool...I've got them set on sequential, it freaks people out. I mostly wanted the minivans to not rearend me on my way to the office. I shuddered at the thought of using 40 year old incandescent bulbs and engineering in today's traffic...especially at Sun up and Sun down. There is a LOT of wires for those babies though, and most of it is still in the trunk....

[Josh69]

Interior

For the interior, I decided to keep the original Parchment color as a tribute to the original. It went against my original design for the car, but in my mind's eye, I knew it would be incredible once finished. I had Arizen Racing stitch up the front buckets in OEM vinyl but chose the stitching from a 2002 T/A...since they had the right pleating for the look I was going after. Along with the fronts, Arizen made a rear seat cover to match using my original vinyl as a pattern since my car had a fold down rear seat, which differed from the Camaro's. With the new seats, the original standard interior door panels would not suffice, especially since their pattern was much different than the seats. I chose to convert the car to the Deluxe interior for the more modern formed door panels. That also meant all new door mechanisms. It was worth it, they work perfectly with the seats.

When the seats arrived, HOLY DISCO BATMAN! I didn't realize how pearlescent they would be. But they are quite stunning and with the rest of the interior in, I wouldn't trade them for anything. They seem to attract quite the crowd.

I also put down 3-4 layers of Raammat throughout (like dynomat, but without the molestation). Scraping the original liner off the roof is no fun, no fun at all. But I wanted the car to be cool and quiet so it was worth it. Also, my dear friend Sean to whom I owe much gratitude for his assistance is an audiophile. His ambition and my wallet are not on speaking terms...but in the near term the sound deadening was a necessity.

[Josh69]

The headliner wasn't fun, but I employed a trick I read about on the internet and stretched it in place and clipped it all the way around with some of those black binder style paper clips I repurposed from my office...ssshhhh. I simply removed some, spread the glue, clipped them back on and so on around the perimeter until it dried. Returned the clips to work, nobody was the wiser.

I employed all new weatherstripping throughout, and I must disclose that I'd rather rot in prison than try to align the door windows again...and I may very well be on my way there if the secretary notices the glue on her paper clips.

I chose a Budnik GTO steering wheel for obvious reason. If they aren't obvious, please go back to a Camaro thread before the 'others' find you out. In case you haven't noticed, the answer is yes, I've begun drinking....since it's Friday night and my nieces are playing hungry hungry hippo and I do believe they intend to harm me.:cheers:

For safety's sake, I picked up a pair of Corbeau's new 3 point retractable harnesses. I couldn't have harness slots in my seats and not use them. It has rendered my backseat a tight fit...but since I'm married, why not. The fold down seat still works and the harnesses easily unclip behind the front seats to allow stowing things, or small passengers if necessary. That leaves the front passengers with lap belts only, but hey, if it was good enough for 1969, it should be good enough for the cops.

[70rs]

Very cool car. And story too. I got to read about your whole build and laugh too. Thanks for posting. Watch out for the hippos.....:_paranoid
(and you are right, ambition and wallets do not make good friends too often lol!!)
:cheers:

[Josh69]

I'm glad you are enjoying it and I hope the other members are too. I've always felt that my ambition was only ever matched by my lack of funds. Until tomorrow..... :cheers:

[Ron Fox]

Nice project Josh. I am glad to see another '69 Bird in the House.

I am curious on why you did not install the mini tubes.

Did your TKO600 fit right in or did you have to modify anything?

Thanks.

[Josh69]

Ron, in hindsight I wish I would have done the minitubs to start with. I initially was just planning to finish the bodywork and do a quick paintjob and interior, and drive it. So the first thing we did was the outer wheelhouses and the quarters. It wasn't until about 6 months into the bodywork phaze that I decided to go this route. I wish I had done it at the time, but I was trying to be budget concious, at least initially. Also, for some reason I was convinced that an 18x10 was good enough. In person they look great, but in pics they do tend to look a bit skinny. Especially after seeing all the tubbed cars online. However, in person alot of people think it is tubbed due to the dish on the rims. Standing over it gives a much different perspective than the low wide angle camera shots do.

Another thing I considered is that I want to learn to weld myself someday, and figured that would be a good place to start with assistance of course. Maybe by then my budget would allow a 4-link as well.

The TKO went right in. The crossmember worked perfectly and that was my only real concern, I'm not sure if it's a Firebird specific part or not, but everything lined up well using Kieslers Firebird kit. I found a nice original bellhousing and used that since the dial-out was ideal and with my attempt at budget awareness, I couldn't justify a blow-proof bellhousing with the hp level and intended usage. The pedals will be an issue if you are converting an automatic as I mentioned earlier. I would recommend finding a used set from someplace like Frank's Pontiac Parts. If you already have pedals you are in good shape.

Since I was also using a Chevrolet style 12 bolt and pinion yoke, I measured for the driveshaft after the install rather than having them ship me the standard Camaro shaft. I was the first customer to do that, so we weren't sure how close it would be. It turns out the Camaro shaft will work just fine. The measurement is the same.

[Josh69]

Here are some pics of the completed car taken in my driveway this fall. I drove it work several times a week during the summer and I couldn't be happier with it's performance. It tracks straight, handles like it's on rails and is surprisingly compliant over bumps. I expected a much firmer ride. It's still firm, but I would categorize it more like an RX-7 R1, rather than a grain truck. It's alot better than my wife's lifted Rubicon was.

I'm averaging around 10mpg on E85 even with OD. That's not too bad though considering they say one uses about 25-30% more fuel by volume due to gasolines higher efficiency. It's also hard to not punch it whenever possible! I chose to run it since it's 105 octane and is readily available and cheap here in MN. As I said earlier, a good wideband O2 would help with the tune. I haven't dyno'd it yet either because I wanted to get it closer before spending my time and money there. Edelbrock is coming out with some new D port aluminum heads that would allow me to use my existing headers this winter. If I chose to go that route, my SCR would be low enough to run pump gas and would enable a conversion to EFI. FAST's new EZ EFI would be perfect. I already have a nice throttle cable bracket and lokar adj thottle cable, etc. Their system would let me re-use all of that and my air cleaner, etc. If I don't sell the car, I'll likely consider that when I can afford it. E85 is a good psyche out fuel though...when I idle through a cruise in, everyone assumes it's race gas. It has a unique smell to it so I field alot of questions on that subject.:lol:

[DOOM]

Josh........... !!!!!!!!! Beautiful man :hail:

[Roger M]

Nice work, Josh! Very tastefully done.

I really like the painted front bumper. IMHO it looks much better than the chrome(on the 69 birds anyway).

The Interior looks awesome!

:thumbsup:

:cheers:

[Vegas69]

Nice project Josh, thanks for sharing. I'd put some negative camber in her as well.

[Josh69]

Thanks for the kind words gentleman! Here is the car at it's very first show this fall. I had a bit of a drive to get there so I didn't get there in time for the voting, but the response was amazing. :lateral: The last pic is of my Dad and I. If it wasn't for his red '68 Camaro with a white bumblebee stripe I grew up in, I'd probably be free of this hot rodding curse...but what fun would that be!

[Josh69]

Nice project Josh, thanks for sharing. I'd put some negative camber in her as well.

I agree, right now the camber is about 0 to -.25*. Good for tire wear, not so much for a track day. With the G-mod and the tubular arms, we started getting into high caster numbers. After discussing it with Frank, I think we could move into neg camber safely. I had hoped the front springs would settle in the meantime. Maybe after sitting all winter I'll be able to get it on a rack again and see what can be done.

[Flash68]

The easy choice for the transmission was a Tremec TKO600. I went with a .64 OD. Hindsight being 20/20, I would either have chosen some 4:11's or a .82 OD to make 5th gear more useful at 55mph. I think if the car ever gets EFI, that would help when cruising under 2K.

Josh, I feel the same way after putting a couple hundred miles on my .64 TKO 600, and I do have EFI. I have 3.70s (should have stayed with my original 3.89s but downsized out of concern for traction issues). I try to keep the rpms at least 2100-2200rpms but I cam is pretty big as well.


Great lookin Bird and nice recap. Nice to see you and your dad together with it. Thanks for sharing! :woot:

[mdprovee]

Josh,

Great work with the car, it turn out really nice.

[tones2SS]

Very nice Josh. Car came out great.
GOOD WORK!:cheers:

[waynieZ]

Nice job the car looks sweet.

[tony byram]

Beautiful car Josh! Great job!:thumbsup:

[Josh69]

Thanks again for the kind words guys! I'm very happy with how it turned out, it's exactly what I had in mind once I settled on the direction. I tried very hard to create a PT car that relied heavily on it's classic styling...as if it could have been from that era in an alternate reality. ;)

I picked up these sweet vintage style valve covers this fall since I felt they fit the car better than the stamped Edelbrocks it came with. Enjoy!

[tones2SS]

Very nice Josh!:cheers:

[Over Actor]

Hey Josh do you have any more good exterior pics? Im about to get pretty hot and heavy into my 69 bird and its been hard to find some good clean exterior shots of 69's to get some ideas from.
I like the t/a spoiler and extractors along with the 400 hood. great choice and very clean car!

[Josh69]

Hey Josh do you have any more good exterior pics? Im about to get pretty hot and heavy into my 69 bird and its been hard to find some good clean exterior shots of 69's to get some ideas from.
I like the t/a spoiler and extractors along with the 400 hood. great choice and very clean car!

These last few pretty much complete what I have for exterior pics. If there is something specific you need to see for your project, just send me a PM and I'll try to take one for you. In case anyone is wondering, the hood pins are the billet ones from Hoodpins.net, one of the site sponsors. I've heard there are two versions of the Goodmark hood, a '67 style catch and a '69 style catch. I honestly don't know if that is a fact or not. What I found was that on my hood, the secondary catch prevented the primary catch from latching. I ground this down just far enough to allow it to work. The secondary catch still works, but I was unsure if it would hold at high speed in the event of a problem. So the pins were my fail safe...and I thought they fit my theme well.

[Over Actor]

Thanks josh. I like the lines of the classics but some of the modern twists, Your pics are clear in focus and of a great looking car. So if I want to make a new chin spoiler ect I can sketch them or photoshop them in and see what it looks like.

Matter of fact thanks to your car and your attention to detail and blacking out the front bumper ect my wife said she actually likes hat. Shes been hounding me to make my bird a camaro lol. thanks again

[Josh69]

Cool, I'm glad you like the painted nose. I've had a few '69 Camaro's and while I still love them, I felt the Firebird could compete if it was done right. I see too many mediocre Firebirds at the car shows and it bothered me enough to do something about it. At first my friends thought the T/A rear spoiler was too much, but once I got the nose on there it balanced it out nicely.

I have an aluminum splitter for the front spoiler as well, just haven't decided if it's the right look for the car. I was planning on using some Nascar style spoiler supports from the lower valance to the splitter.

The front spoiler is a Camaro part and I used the Camaro mounting kit and support rods behind it. The only thing I had to do was Dremel out a couple of notches in the top of the plastic to clear a couple of small humps in the bottom of the valance. It even used some of the existing holes, most notably the center hole which was nice for lining it up. I've gotten quite a few compliments on the front spoiler from other bird owners. If you didn't know better, it looks factory.

[Over Actor]

Its well rounded. The front spoiler and the t/a spoiler even in out. The 69's unlike the previous 2 years just look like they are lacking in the front. Your lip levels it out perfect. The factory nose hangs out alittle too far pastthe chin so to say.

I havent decided a solid direction in my build I like to road course race and drag race a bit. I have a grand national drivetrain Im thinking about dropping in. who knows. Might drop in a motor I scored from a 69 judge.

Thanks again for answering my question and for the pics.

[Ron Fox]

The front spoiler looks nice Josh. I will probably add one to my '69. Is it flat black?

[Josh69]

The front spoiler looks nice Josh. I will probably add one to my '69. Is it flat black?

It the natural plastic finish, made from ABS plastic I think. It's stiff enough to hold it's shape, but I think it would deflect enough on a slight impact to keep from shattering. They make carbon fiber versions as well, but alot more coin. I think this part from OER is like $40.

[Josh69]

Its well rounded. The front spoiler and the t/a spoiler even in out. The 69's unlike the previous 2 years just look like they are lacking in the front. Your lip levels it out perfect. The factory nose hangs out alittle too far pastthe chin so to say.

I havent decided a solid direction in my build I like to road course race and drag race a bit. I have a grand national drivetrain Im thinking about dropping in. who knows. Might drop in a motor I scored from a 69 judge.

Thanks again for answering my question and for the pics.

Thanks, and you are welcome. I also think the spoiler plays a big role in keeping the front from looking too expansive. It visually stops the eye at a point ahead of the wheels, essentially shortening the nose. Otherwise, it's a long, long beak hanging out there which contributes to an oddball look when combined with the chrome bumper.

I had the splitter fabbed up to help take some visual weight off the back, but now that it's pretty much done, I like it as is. If the day came and I still have the car, I would minitub it and put some black powdercoated Fiske FM10's on there and then do the splitter. I think that would give it a meaner, more track oriented look.

Sounds like you have a tough decision on the motor. They did put the 3.8T in the T/A Anniversary cars, and Pontiac has offered other Turbo's in the 2nd Gens. I think you could get away with it from that point of view. Any early GTO motor is a good starting point too. I'll be watching your build!

[68400BIRD]

Just finished reading the entire post. Lots of time and thought were put into this car. Now I just need to steal a few ideas. Great looking car.

[vannatta20]

Awesome build! I have been thinking about changing my interior to white as well. I bought camaro 4th gen seats that are white leather and i think it will turn out all right.

[Josh69]

I've got some updates coming so I'll post up pictures as I go.

The car is getting the following:

KRE 260cfm Aluminum D port heads, bowl blended and port matched, 2.08/1.66 valves
Isky 224/232 @ .050 cam, .528/.533 lift with PRW Stainless steel 1.65 Rockers
Quick Fuel 735VS carb w/gasoline tune
Vintage A/C
Covan's Thunder Road black ABS dash insert
Auto Meter American Muscle gauges
Alpine CD player, 6.5" components in a set of Screamin' Performance fiberglass kick panels
DSE Wipers
Modo Innovations pedal cover set

I decided to get rid of E85 in order to run an aftermarket EFI system when my budget allows


WOOT! :unibrow:

[67rstbkt]

Awesome car:thumbsup: Quick question about the steering. You said that you would rather go with the Camaro setup over the Firebird. Why? I ask becaus I bought a Camaro subframe last year and it came with all new components. I was thinking about using the steering setup, but noticed that the Firebird center link appears to be lower. Can you provide more details? Did you use the Camaro tie rods and the Firebird center link?

Thanks

[Josh69]

Awesome car:thumbsup: Quick question about the steering. You said that you would rather go with the Camaro setup over the Firebird. Why? I ask becaus I bought a Camaro subframe last year and it came with all new components. I was thinking about using the steering setup, but noticed that the Firebird center link appears to be lower. Can you provide more details? Did you use the Camaro tie rods and the Firebird center link?

Thanks

I did so because it's easier and cheaper to replace the tie rods with Camaro parts in the event of a failure. I used a '69 Camaro centerlink, idler arm, and tie-rods. I used the stock Firebird steering arms and spindles (s/b the same as Camaro parts, the arms could differ but not likely). You will also need a '68 Firebird pitman arm because it's curved to fit around the headers. The Camaro pitman is straight and will hit the exhaust. The Firebird centerlink is not serviceable, meaning the balljoints cannot be repaired, you need a whole new centerlink if it fails. The Camaro part is just a bar with tapered holes for the joints, so much simpler. Plus, the Pontiac part is crap and was designed terribly. There is what is referred to as a 'tight' joint on one end of it to give it just enough play to not bind, but is not actually a balljoint, and that is the reason it's not serviceable. Using all new parts, the cost is about the same. I had the used Camaro centerlink and my steering arms and spindles powdercoated. Everything else was new. The '68 pitman wasn't cheap at around $130, but spending $300 on a '69 Firebird centerlink was less appealing, much less so dealing with a repair. This car is a driver, so it was worth it to make the change IMHO.

It sounds like the only change you need to make is the pitman arm.

It clears my stock as well as an aftermarket stock replacement oil pan. I am a little nervous about the Canton pan, but we'll find out soon enough.

[Warpath Pontiac]

Those upgrades sound pretty solid. I've heard a lot of good things about those KRE heads. I'll be interested in hearing how they turn out since I'm looking at doing a major overhaul to my 350 (stroker kit, Edelbrock or KRE heads, and other upgrades) sometime in the future.

And I would second the camaro steering setup (Thanks Josh for helping me out with that one). I'm just swapping my stuff over now and getting rid of the 20 some odd year old suspension rebuild.

[Josh69]

Those upgrades sound pretty solid. I've heard a lot of good things about those KRE heads. I'll be interested in hearing how they turn out since I'm looking at doing a major overhaul to my 350 (stroker kit, Edelbrock or KRE heads, and other upgrades) sometime in the future.

And I would second the camaro steering setup (Thanks Josh for helping me out with that one). I'm just swapping my stuff over now and getting rid of the 20 some odd year old suspension rebuild.

Thanks, and you're welcome! I'm planning a trip to a dyno to find out what this thing really puts out. At this time, I think there are only two aluminum headed 383 Pontiacs in existence, so I'm real curious. The other one is in Iowa, he hasn't dyno'ed his either.

I'm hoping for somewhere close to 475hp. I really wanted to see 500hp out of a 354 Pontiac block, and I probably could with the cam I already have and a spacer on this intake...but it's pushing it on the street. I went with a smaller cam for better driveability at cruise and in traffic since I commute with the car on nice days. I went with 1.65 rockers though to net a higher lift than before to take advantage of these heads, which should support 550hp.

[67rstbkt]

I did so because it's easier and cheaper to replace the tie rods with Camaro parts in the event of a failure. I used a '69 Camaro centerlink, idler arm, and tie-rods. I used the stock Firebird steering arms and spindles (s/b the same as Camaro parts, the arms could differ but not likely). You will also need a '68 Firebird pitman arm because it's curved to fit around the headers. The Camaro pitman is straight and will hit the exhaust. The Firebird centerlink is not serviceable, meaning the balljoints cannot be repaired, you need a whole new centerlink if it fails. The Camaro part is just a bar with tapered holes for the joints, so much simpler. Plus, the Pontiac part is crap and was designed terribly. There is what is referred to as a 'tight' joint on one end of it to give it just enough play to not bind, but is not actually a balljoint, and that is the reason it's not serviceable. Using all new parts, the cost is about the same. I had the used Camaro centerlink and my steering arms and spindles powdercoated. Everything else was new. The '68 pitman wasn't cheap at around $130, but spending $300 on a '69 Firebird centerlink was less appealing, much less so dealing with a repair. This car is a driver, so it was worth it to make the change IMHO.

It sounds like the only change you need to make is the pitman arm.

It clears my stock as well as an aftermarket stock replacement oil pan. I am a little nervous about the Canton pan, but we'll find out soon enough.


Thanks for the info. My main concern when looking at the parts was that the center link seemed to sit higher up on the Camaro setup. I did not realize that the pitman arm was different; I'll have to check it out. My entire Firebird subframe is in my backyard with all the steering components attached so I can compare the two. :cheers:

[Warpath Pontiac]

I'm hoping for somewhere close to 475hp. I really wanted to see 500hp out of a 354 Pontiac block, and I probably could with the cam I already have and a spacer on this intake...but it's pushing it on the street. I went with a smaller cam for better driveability at cruise and in traffic since I commute with the car on nice days. I went with 1.65 rockers though to net a higher lift than before to take advantage of these heads, which should support 550hp.

I think you should be able to get pretty close or achieve that. I saved this article HPP did a long time ago and got 462HP out of an iron head 383 pontiac.
http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_0712_small_bore_pontiac_engine_build/index.html
I would imagine with the better flow numbers out of the KRE or Edelbrock heads 500hp shouldnt be too difficult.

[Josh69]

I have been working diligently on the updates, boy, some of this stuff takes alot longer than it should!

I got the the old heater out, and the new A/C unit mounted under the dash. I used a factory style heater delete plate on the firewall instead of welding in a smooth panel. I think it looks clean, like it could've came that way from the factory, so I'm really happy with it. I used the formed hard lines that came with the Vintage Air kit, and the block off panel that came with the kit that goes on the inside of the firewall to help with noise and heat control. I covered that with dynamat on the inside. That piece was thick enough that I drilled and tapped it for some small black allen head bolts to fasten the heater delete plate from the firewall for a clean look.

I mounted my relays and circuit breaker behind the glovebox and above the evaporator. That way I can easily access my electronics by simply removing the glove box. I also mounted a two post distribution block there from Jeg's. I have the small post wired to 12v switched, and the larger one to 12v constant from the battery so I can easily add anything to the system in the future in a central location....like my ipod adapter/charger for the Alpine that is coming in the mail. I powered my DSE selecta speed wipers off that dist block also, using a relay. I have the original harness/fuse block in the car so I wanted to have a separate fused power supply for all my new accessories and stereo, etc.

I mounted my Covan's Thunder road dash with American Muscle series Autometer gauges, my Alpine CDA 9813 and two round vents that mimic the factory Astro Vents. I used '68 style vent balls because I like the two horizontal lines better than the crosshair style on the '69 bird. The hvac controls are the black anodized 3 knob billet ones from VA. Can't really see them in the pic. I had John Covan send me extra plastic so I cut that out to fit the new, smaller controls and glued it in from the back side to fill the rectangle factory hvac control hole. The dash already had a nice beveled finish on that edge so it blended real nicely, can hardly make out the seam in the shadows of the interior.

My Alpine has a built in tilt function, so that allowed me to bolt the stereo in flush with the dash so it's neat and tucked up without anything unsightly around it. I can then tilt it up to my preference once it's powered up. It's really slick. The old center speaker mount had a clip and bolt in it after I removed that speaker and it lined up perfectly with the stereo so I ran a strap of metal from the bolt in the back of the head unit up to that speaker mount...may slow down a thief, but surely secured the deck from moving around.

Everything is currently powered up and appears to work. I have to run the RCA's and speaker wire through the car then I can re-install the interior. I also picked up a set of Screamin' Performance kick panels that are molded to run 6.5" components. I'll be using a set of Alpine tweeters and Coustic drivers, and an old school Rockford Pro 12" Sub I had laying around.

The motor is at the engine builders getting the KRE heads installed and new cam, etc. He'll break it back in on his test stand and I hope to have a running car within a couple of more weeks.

Here's some crappy cell phone pics of the new dash and firewall. I have better ones on my digital camera, but haven't found time to download them yet.

:lateral:

[68400BIRD]

Josh, it's looking great. Nice choice on the gauges, they really look nice with the rest of the interior. How long before the engine is complete? I might have to take a trip back out to see the car.

[Josh69]

Thanks Rob! I was told it'd be a week to finish once he starts, and he would be starting it this week. So we'll see, but I sure hope it's soon now that the interior is about to go back in!! :yes:

[Josh69]

I've made alot of progress, but haven't taken the time to snap many pics or download them, so I'll just post a few cell phone pics.

The car is pretty much complete other than the trunk detail. I also added the DSE fender struts, and some Ring Bros hardware under the hood, and eventually would like a set of Ring Bros hinges..lots of exposed bolts holding up the nose on the bird that could use a little dress-up.

One of my favorite touches was a set of billet 9mm locks, had to re-tap them to fit my car.

[Josh69]

I put about 50 hours into wet-sanding and buffing the car prior to Car Craft last weekend. I started on the prior Saturday, and realized quickly that I was going to be short on time. In only got through the 2nd stage of buffing (swirl-mark remover). I intend on going back over the whole car with the extra cut compound since the hood was the last thing I did, and I perfected my method and realized the rest wasn't good enough. All in due time, it's time to enjoy the car, but at least now the orange peel and fisheyes are gone. :woot:

I used all 3M compounds and pads with a Makita buffer. I'll get some pro pics up of the final product when I get a chance.

[XcYZ]

Awesome. :cheers:

I can't remember if I asked you before, but where in MN are you?

[Josh69]

The best change I've made is the new aluminum radiator and twin Spal electric fans with digital controller. I just got the install finished last night. It was running hotter than I'd liked (200-210*) and got especially warm at the Car Craft show where I had to pull over and let it cool down on the show grounds, which was not fun. Staring at my new Autometer temp gauge the whole time took alot of fun out of it.

Fortunately, my buddies tents were right next to Universal Parts Inc, an outfit out of Humbolt, IA that specializes in aluminum radiators with Spal fans. I got the whole set-up for $800, with the digital controller, relay, sensor, etc. I bought it on the spot. It's the best looking, and highest quality set-up I've seen for that kind of money. Fully welded, no epoxy.

Drove it to work today, and am very pleased. So much quieter and smoother without that big mechanical fan blowing. I was in such a state that I didn't realize the one I got was for an Automatic...it didn't occur to me that they may have a Manual version. Well, not much difference other than the fittings for the trans cooler. I am going to block them off with some plugs for now, but am thinking about turning it into a PS cooler...not sure if it'll be adequate for an oil cooler.

[Josh69]

Awesome. :cheers:

I can't remember if I asked you before, but where in MN are you?

I'm in Rockford, just west of Plymouth.

[Ron Fox]

Nice additions Josh. The 9mm locks are a nice touch. Where did you get them and where did you mount the piece that goes with it? :unibrow:

I see in the pics you have added AC. Does it get hot in MN? It's freakin hot here in TN.

Thanks for the pics. Hope you post more.

[Josh69]

Nice additions Josh. The 9mm locks are a nice touch. Where did you get them and where did you mount the piece that goes with it? :unibrow:

I see in the pics you have added AC. Does it get hot in MN? It's freakin hot here in TN.

Thanks for the pics. Hope you post more.

Thanks Ron! The locks are from Steeda for Mustangs. I thought they would drive the point home if someone was foolish enough to start fiddling with it. ;)

The thread is wrong, likely metric, but it's the correct diameter, so I figured there was enough material to just re-tap them, which I did and it works.

It gets very hot and humid here in the summer. Land of 10K lakes. It's in the mid 80's most of the summer and hits 90's now and then, but the real problem is the humidity. As they say, it's not the heat, it's the humidity!

I put about 100 miles on it yesterday just wandering the countryside aimlessly with the wife, and I can't express how much more she enjoys the car now. It got downright miserable without A/C last summer...stopping at every shady bench we could find. This year, we've reached a whole new level of enjoyment.

Even with the added cost of the new radiator and fans, my wife exclaimed yesterday that it was the best $2500 I've ever spent. :cool:

[deanmellos]

Josh,

The car looks great. I am in the market now trying to find a classic car and I came across your blog. How much are you selling it for?

[Josh69]

Josh,

The car looks great. I am in the market now trying to find a classic car and I came across your blog. How much are you selling it for?

Details here:

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=28378

Edit: not really trying to sell it anymore, but if the price is right, everything is for sale. ;)

[fleetus macmullitz]

Nice mods Josh.

Your engine compartment looks good too.

[Josh69]

Finally got the trunk splatter painted and installed my DSE battery mount and Optima red top. I found out the water based trunk paint takes FOREVER to dry. Also, my rear spoiler holes weren't sealed so I had to seal those.

[68400BIRD]

Finally got the trunk splatter painted and installed my DSE battery mount and Optima red top. I found out the water based trunk paint takes FOREVER to dry. Also, my rear spoiler holes weren't sealed so I had to seal those.

Looks great Josh. You did put the clear coat over that water based paint right?? I'm getting close to the headliner install,hint hint.

[Josh69]

Looks great Josh. You did put the clear coat over that water based paint right?? I'm getting close to the headliner install,hint hint.

Busted, no, I still need to clear it. I just did two cans of splatter and it isn't quite enough. I'm ordering two more cans today and then I'll clear it. How long did you wait before clear coating after you sprayed the splatter?

I've still got the clips I used for my headliner, so I can help you through that. It's not too bad, painting the trunk was worse. :cool:

[68400BIRD]

Busted, no, I still need to clear it. I just did two cans of splatter and it isn't quite enough. I'm ordering two more cans today and then I'll clear it. How long did you wait before clear coating after you sprayed the splatter?

I've still got the clips I used for my headliner, so I can help you through that. It's not too bad, painting the trunk was worse. :cool:

I waited around a week. It took ever to feel like it was dry. Spraying the clear is not as esay as you would think. Or maybe it's just me. I had a hard time keeping the clear coat all wet with out having a cloudy overspray look. The clear just hangs in the trunk and then leaves a cloudy look on what ever was painted last. My final coat of clear was brushed on.