Older Richmond 5-Speed in My 1969 Firebird

[Ron Fox]

Occasionally my builder has access to parts and cars from others who are trying to sell such items. He has found an OLDER Richmond 5-speed and says he has seen the inside of the transmission and it looks good. He mentioned that the seller has replaced a few internal parts as well as clean the entire transmission. The seller also has a Hurst Shifter to go with the Richmond also.

I guess I have several questions about this transmission.

Is this OLDER Richmond transmission just as good or equal to a NEW Richmond 5-Speed?

Is this a good deal? ($1,400 for all)

Will the transmission fit into my '69 Firebird without any modifications?

Can I use my original console?

Can I use my original Hurst stick?

How much torque can this OLDER transmission take?

Also, can this OLD Richmond be turned into an overdrive? My builder says yes with the correct rear gear, etc. (3.08 or 3.23 gear)

I am not a gear head and I trust my builder but I like to get opinions and information from others.

Thanks for the help.

[GregWeld]

Ron --

A couple things ---

"older" means what?

I had a Richmond 5 speed once - hated it. It shifted like a truck transmission - maybe worse. It used LONG brand shifter and the shifter was beautifully made but no matter what I did to adjust it - it shifted like a truck.

Second -- beware that some Richmond 5 speeds have a compound LOW not an overdrive 5th gear - be sure you know what you're buying.

[GregWeld]

Not to cast any "dispersions" on your builder - but you don't turn a transmission into an over drive by changing out the rear end gears.... The Richmond 5 speeds that I know of - had 1:1 final drive ratios... THAT is not an overdrive... an overdrive has something LESS than a 1:1 ratio -- more like .70:1 or .49:1

What he's trying to say is that you could have acceptable highway cruising RPMS by changing the rear end ratio to the 3:23 or 3:08 gears... but that is not what you'd do if you want some performance AND acceptable highway RPMs... if you want that combo -- you need to buy a REAL OVERDRIVE transmission such as a Tremec 5 or 6 speed. Also note that with the Tremecs, you can place the gear shift in different locations.

Check out Keisler Transmission for some information on this kind of stuff. Placement of shifter and gear ratios etc and how they affect cruise rpms etc.

http://www.keislerauto.com/

[Ron Fox]

Ron --

A couple things ---

"older" means what?

I had a Richmond 5 speed once - hated it. It shifted like a truck transmission - maybe worse. It used LONG brand shifter and the shifter was beautifully made but no matter what I did to adjust it - it shifted like a truck.

Second -- beware that some Richmond 5 speeds have a compound LOW not an overdrive 5th gear - be sure you know what you're buying.

It's an older transmission meaning several years old.

Please be more specific on how your Richmond shifted. Was it a short gear from 1st to 2nd gear?

At the moment I have not done my homework on transmissions so please educate me on "compound low."

Thanks for your help.

[Ron Fox]

Not to cast any "dispersions" on your builder - but you don't turn a transmission into an over drive by changing out the rear end gears.... The Richmond 5 speeds that I know of - had 1:1 final drive ratios... THAT is not an overdrive... an overdrive has something LESS than a 1:1 ratio -- more like .70:1 or .49:1

What he's trying to say is that you could have acceptable highway cruising RPMS by changing the rear end ratio to the 3:23 or 3:08 gears... but that is not what you'd do if you want some performance AND acceptable highway RPMs... if you want that combo -- you need to buy a REAL OVERDRIVE transmission such as a Tremec 5 or 6 speed. Also note that with the Tremecs, you can place the gear shift in different locations.

Check out Keisler Transmission for some information on this kind of stuff. Placement of shifter and gear ratios etc and how they affect cruise rpms etc.

http://www.keislerauto.com/

The early plan for the '69 Firebird is to have an engine putting out maybe around 550 to 650 hp with high Pontiac torque. If I remember correctly (and I am probably saying this wrong) my builder said with this type of hp I may not like taking off in first gear or taking off in first gear would be difficult. That it would be difficult to drive in bumper to bumper traffic. This is why he likes the Richmond 5-Speed with the high hp application.

Like I said earlier, I am no gear head so please keep the info coming.

Thanks.

[GregWeld]

I steered you where to go to check out the other 5 speeds on the market...
Make sure you check them out before committing.

A Richmond 5 speed (non overdrive version) has a 3:28 first gear

A Muncie 4 speed (non overdrive) has a 2:56 or 2:52 first gear.

The 1st gear in the Richmond has you shifting out of first gear in about 10 feet... sorta like an old pickup truck that had a compound low - it's very powerful but you're not going to move very far very fast.

When I said the Richmond shifts like a truck - I meant it shifts HARD -- and SLOW - and is NOTCHY... A new Corvette 6 speed (Tremec) would best be described as a "snick snick" shift - super easy - quick - positive. An old Muncie - when adjusted properly - would also be an easy to shift transmission - and with a "short throw" linkage set up - would also be "snick snick".

[Ron Fox]

Would a short 1st gear be needed in a high horsepower and somewhat of a middle to large cam car? I have never driven a car with extremely high hp so I do not know what it is like taking off in 1st gear. My builder said it would not be pleasant driving in bumper to bumper traffic (that it would be like taking off in 2nd gear in my Toyota truck like you mentioned)

Personally I do not like the short 1st gear but then again I do not want it to be difficult to take off in 1st gear in a high hp car.

[Flash68]

Would a short 1st gear be needed in a high horsepower and somewhat of a middle to large cam car? I have never driven a car with extremely high hp so I do not know what it is like taking off in 1st gear. My builder said it would not be pleasant driving in bumper to bumper traffic (that it would be like taking off in 2nd gear in my Toyota truck like you mentioned)

Personally I do not like the short 1st gear but then again I do not want it to be difficult to take off in 1st gear in a high hp car.

What are the specs of this motor? Does it have some nice off-idle torque? Or is it a peaky small block?

I am guessing you do not want this tranny, and for a little more money you can get either a TKO or a T56. I have the TKO and it has a relatively short 1st gear and I would not want anything any shorter like your Richmond likely has.

And I do believe they made a Richmond OD tranny so maybe it does have an overdrive 5th or 6th gear?

[GregWeld]

Would a short 1st gear be needed in a high horsepower and somewhat of a middle to large cam car? I have never driven a car with extremely high hp so I do not know what it is like taking off in 1st gear. My builder said it would not be pleasant driving in bumper to bumper traffic (that it would be like taking off in 2nd gear in my Toyota truck like you mentioned)

Personally I do not like the short 1st gear but then again I do not want it to be difficult to take off in 1st gear in a high hp car.

Your builder sounds very inexperienced. I would be questioning his judgement.

You asked for an opinion. I've given mine. I owned this transmission and it was a HUGE mistake... I hated it, for all the reasons given. I can afford to tear it out and replace it. Which is exactly what I did.

[Ron Fox]

What are the specs of this motor? Does it have some nice off-idle torque? Or is it a peaky small block?

I am guessing you do not want this tranny, and for a little more money you can get either a TKO or a T56. I have the TKO and it has a relatively short 1st gear and I would not want anything any shorter like your Richmond likely has.

And I do believe they made a Richmond OD tranny so maybe it does have an overdrive 5th or 6th gear?

At the moment my car is still waiting for metal work to be completed. The engine has not yet but the plan is for a 455 or slighty larger ci.

Richmond does make a true overdrive called the Super Street Overdrive.

I guess my MAIN CONCERN is taking off in 1st gear with high hp. I do not want the car to bog down when taking off. Please educate me on this but do all High hp cars bog down? I am just in the dark when it comes to transmissions, etc.

Do you like your TKO? Is your car a high hp car and if so does it tend to bog down taking off or difficult driving in traffic?

Thanks for your help.

[Ron Fox]

Your builder sounds very inexperienced. I would be questioning his judgement.

You asked for an opinion. I've given mine. I owned this transmission and it was a HUGE mistake... I hated it, for all the reasons given. I can afford to tear it out and replace it. Which is exactly what I did.

He is experienced in restoring and modifying cars. I have seen his past work and the cars he is restoring at the present time. That is why this site is so very helpful getting the knowledge and opinions of others is extremely important to me.

If I did buy this Richmond would it be difficult to sell it in the future?

Thank you for your help and your opinion.

[GregWeld]

500 hp from a 455 cubic inch motor is almost STOCK...

My 427 small block chevy makes 489 foot pounds of torque as measured at the REAR WHEELS...it idles @ 900 rpms - runs A/C... etc.

Taking off in first gear with 455 cubic inches "or more" is NOT going to be an issue. If you were running 800 hp from a N/A small block... that might be an issue...

[GregWeld]

He is experienced in restoring and modifying cars. I have seen his past work and the cars he is restoring at the present time. That is why this site is so very helpful getting the knowledge and opinions of others is extremely important to me.

If I did buy this Richmond would it be difficult to sell it in the future?

Thank you for your help and your opinion.

Ron,

Do some more research BEFORE you buy. Why would you ask an opinion - and then turn right around and go against that advice - and then ask what it would take to bail out of that dumb decision? Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind - you trust your builder. I would bet he's never driven a car with this transmission... 'cause if he had he wouldn't be recommending it.

[GregWeld]

Ron --

Why don't you look into doing a POLL here -- you can post a poll - and get votes on various transmissions - 6 speed - 5 speed od - 5 speed richmond non od - muncie 4 speed etc.


My guess is you'd not get one single vote for the Richmond non OD transmission. Seriously -- post up a poll. It would be interesting to see what the response would be.

[Ron Fox]

500 hp from a 455 cubic inch motor is almost STOCK...

My 427 small block chevy makes 489 foot pounds of torque as measured at the REAR WHEELS...it idles @ 900 rpms - runs A/C... etc.

Taking off in first gear with 455 cubic inches "or more" is NOT going to be an issue. If you were running 800 hp from a N/A small block... that might be an issue...

This is why I like the opinions and advice from others. The overall plan for the car and engine is not set in stone. I have thrown out to my builder that I want a high torque 550+ hp with Butler Performance building the engine. Butler has a 474 to a 501ci that looks temping.

[Mkelcy]

There are two issues being mixed up here - the overall ratio in first gear and the ease or difficulty of shifting the transmission.

Many trucks have a very low (high numeric) first gear to get a heavy load going. The 3.28 first gear of the Richmond coupled with a "normal" rear end ratio in the mid-3.XX or higher numerically, would give you a super low first gear - you'd be wound out at 20mph. But if the car is geared for the transmission, this can easily be avoided.

The overall gearing of a Tremec TKO600 with the .67 5th gear and a 3.55 rear from first to 5th is as follows: 10.19 - 6.71 - 4.54 - 3.55 - 2.38

The overall gearing of the Richmond which has a 1.0 5th gear and a 3.08 rear from first to 5th is as follows: 10.10 - 6.56 - 4.84 - 3.82 - 3.08

So the two can be made very comparable until you look at 5th gear. To put it in more understandable terms, the Richmond would have you turning about 2,700 to 2,800 rpm at 70mph, the Tremec would have you turning about 2,100 to 2,200 rpm at 70mph. Also, depending on what rear is in the car, the Richmond may require a change in rear ratio, but if you're planning on redoing the rear end anyway, that may not be a big issue.

The second issue is shift quality. An internal rail shifter (the Tremec) is likely to be smoother than the external shifter (the Richmond) if for no other reason than it's protected from the elements. I drove one Richmond and found it very notchy. My internal rail T56 shifts like butter.

There have been some issues with the 2-3 shift in the Tremec TKO600, but most attribute those problems to operator error. I'd also check out the size of the Richmond shifter. I saw a first gen F-body with either a Richmond 5 or six speed that required a lot of cutting on the trans tunnel to accommodate the Long shifter.

Overall, if it were me, I'd skip the Richmond and go with either a Tremec TKO600, a Magnum T56 six speed or a used T56 six speed.

[Ron Fox]

Ron,

Do some more research BEFORE you buy. Why would you ask an opinion - and then turn right around and go against that advice - and then ask what it would take to bail out of that dumb decision? Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind - you trust your builder. I would bet he's never driven a car with this transmission... 'cause if he had he wouldn't be recommending it.

I am definitely going to take more time to research transmissions and talk to others about this subject. I am very picky and I want to do it right the first time around.

He has mentioned that he has used the Richmond in the past.

[Ron Fox]

Ron --

Why don't you look into doing a POLL here -- you can post a poll - and get votes on various transmissions - 6 speed - 5 speed od - 5 speed richmond non od - muncie 4 speed etc.


My guess is you'd not get one single vote for the Richmond non OD transmission. Seriously -- post up a poll. It would be interesting to see what the response would be.

How do you post a poll?

Thanks.

[Mkelcy]

How do you post a poll?

Thanks.

The main thing a poll will determine is who has the most successful advertising department.

[GregWeld]

The main thing a poll will determine is who has the most successful advertising department.

I don't know how or why you'd say that. A poll on this website would give you a broad array of some very knowledgeable people - who've been there and done that. In fact - if you just looked through the "project introductions" on this website - or over at Pro-Touring.Com - my guess is you wouldn't find a single person planning on using a Richmond non OD 5 speed. There's a very good reason for that... and it has nothing to do with "advertising". You know that because you've shifted (driven) one of these beasts - and have compared it to the far superior Tremec.

I have no axe to grind in this - I don't care what he does - I won't have to drive it. He asked for opinions on this transmission and I have TRIED to give him some honest no BS feedback.

Now -- I hope he buys it -- so when he drives it he can come back and post "dang! I should have listened to you"! :rofl: :cheers:

BTW - RON - Your builder must have a personal interest in this particular used transmission - otherwise there is NO WAY he'd advise you do put it behind a HUGELY TORQUEY Pontiac big block... particularly since this is an all new fresh build - so tranny tunnel mods etc should not be any issue... and NOBODY puts in a non overdrive transmissions these days... it would just be a complete waste of time and money. The beauty of having an overdrive transmission - is because you can have performance AND cruisability - something that was unobtainable "back in the day".

[GregWeld]

How do you post a poll?

Thanks.

Follow the instructions.


http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/faq.php4?faq=vb_read_and_post#faq_vb_poll_explain

[Mkelcy]

I don't know how or why you'd say that. A poll on this website would give you a broad array of some very knowledgeable people - who've been there and done that.

For my part I prefer hard data and information to random expressions of opinion. Although there are people here with great experience, a poll isn't going to show who's voting. So all you get is numbers.

It's been my observation that people tend to recommend what they've purchased themselves, even if it's still sitting in the box because their car isn't done yet. That's a recommendation that's pretty worthless to me. You and I have said the Richmond is notchy, that Tremecs shift smoother, and I gave a comparison of the the gear ratios for the two. A request for input comparing the shifting of the two might be useful; a poll - not so much.

[GregWeld]

For my part I prefer hard data and information to random expressions of opinion. Although there are people here with great experience, a poll isn't going to show who's voting. So all you get is numbers.

It's been my observation that people tend to recommend what they've purchased themselves, even if it's still sitting in the box because their car isn't done yet. That's a recommendation that's pretty worthless to me. You and I have said the Richmond is notchy, that Tremecs shift smoother, and I gave a comparison of the the gear ratios for the two. A request for input comparing the shifting of the two might be useful; a poll - not so much.

Good point.

I was thinking though - that given the amount of OVERWHELMING choices that a poll would show - might convince him that MOST people are not looking to install a clunky old skool Richmond.

[Ron Fox]

Thanks Mike and Greg. This is what this site is all about.

Please keep the information coming because I am trying to soak up all the car information I can.

Please talk more about the cause and solution of the bogging down issue with high hp.

Thanks.

[Mkelcy]

Thanks Mike and Greg. This is what this site is all about.

Please keep the information coming because I am trying to soak up all the car information I can.

Please talk more about the cause and solution of the bogging down issue with high hp.

Thanks.

What engine are you putting in the car, what heads, how big are the intake runners, how big a cam, what induction system and what transmission and rear gear are you going for? My guess is you don't need to worry about a bog off idle, but some info on your build might help.

[camcojb]

I have owned a couple of Richmond 5 speeds, and driven several more. I would never buy one again when there's the TKO and T56's out there that are MUCH nicer shifting (my opinion) and give you overdrive. I also think $1400 is high for that trans.

My two cents.

Jody

[Ron Fox]

What engine are you putting in the car, what heads, how big are the intake runners, how big a cam, what induction system and what transmission and rear gear are you going for? My guess is you don't need to worry about a bog off idle, but some info on your build might help.

I am still waiting on metal work to begin and the engine decision (among other things) has not been make just yet. I want a built 455 and my plan is to have Butler Performance in on the build. So when the engine time comes I will get with Butler and others to see what is the best choice for me. (which will be another thread in the future).

But it sounds like most everyone in here so far does not think Richmond is the way to go. Please keep the information coming on the experiences with Richmond and other transmission. Also please give all the benefits of the TKO's, etc.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

I have owned a couple of Richmond 5 speeds, and driven several more. I would never buy one again when there's the TKO and T56's out there that are MUCH nicer shifting (my opinion) and give you overdrive. I also think $1400 is high for that trans.

My two cents.

Jody

Please give me your pro's and con's on your TKO.

Thanks.

[camcojb]

Please give me your pro's and con's on your TKO.

Thanks.
The TKO and T56 are stronger, smoother shifting, and both give you an overdrive gear (T56 has two). Really no comparison. When Doug Nash (now Richmond) came out with the 5 speed it's main benefit was less rpm drop between gears, and with the lower first gear ratio you could run a taller rear gear and lower your cruising rpms as compared to the factory Muncies.

But they just don't shift all that well, and since they do not have overdrive the TKO's and T56's are a much better alternative.

Jody

[Mkelcy]

Please keep the information coming on the experiences with Richmond and other transmission. Also please give all the benefits of the TKO's, etc.

Thanks.

You've gotten three responses from people who have driven both transmissions. All three thought the Tremec shifted much nicer than the Richmond. You've had the gearing explained and an example of the resulting rpm range given.

Here's where (I think) it gets to be you who needs to do some of the work if you really want an explanation of "all the benefits of the TKO's, etc." A simple search will get you lots of information.

That said, I'm surprised you still need further explanation given the the Richmond is 0 for 3 based on personal experience.

[Ron Fox]

The TKO and T56 are stronger, smoother shifting, and both give you an overdrive gear (T56 has two). Really no comparison. When Doug Nash (now Richmond) came out with the 5 speed it's main benefit was less rpm drop between gears, and with the lower first gear ratio you could run a taller rear gear and lower your cruising rpms as compared to the factory Muncies.

But they just don't shift all that well, and since they do not have overdrive the TKO's and T56's are a much better alternative.

Jody

Is there an rpm drop with the TKO?

[camcojb]

Is there an rpm drop with the TKO?
as compared to what? Compared to a Richmond 5 speed, yes, the TKO has an overdrive gear for fifth instead of the Richmonds 1:1 fifth gear. If you're cruising down the freeway at 70 mph with the Richmond and you're turning say 2800 rpms, you'll be between 1800-1900 rpms at the same speed with the TKO, depending on whether you run the TKO500 or the 600 (one is .64 overdrive fifth and the other is .68).

Jody

[Flash68]

At the moment my car is still waiting for metal work to be completed. The engine has not yet but the plan is for a 455 or slighty larger ci.

Richmond does make a true overdrive called the Super Street Overdrive.

I guess my MAIN CONCERN is taking off in 1st gear with high hp. I do not want the car to bog down when taking off. Please educate me on this but do all High hp cars bog down? I am just in the dark when it comes to transmissions, etc.

Do you like your TKO? Is your car a high hp car and if so does it tend to bog down taking off or difficult driving in traffic?

Thanks for your help.

As was already stated... a big cube torquey engine will have no problems taking off, but it will be a bear with a short 1st gear.

All high hp cars do not bog down. There is no generalization. This is why we are asking about your motor specs as that will tell what driving characteristics it will have. 2 motors with the same hp number can operate and drive night and day differently. EFI vs carb has something to do with low speed drivability too.

I like my TKO so far (only 250 miles) but I wish I woulda got a T56 for the taller first gear. I have an EFI procharged small block with a fairly big cam, but taking off is not a problem.

The only way I could see you using this Richmond trans is if it was free or $100. It is way overpriced I think, and there is a good reason everyone is running either a TKO or T56.

This is one of those times it's okay to follow the masses. :D

[Ron Fox]

You've gotten three responses from people who have driven both transmissions. All three thought the Tremec shifted much nicer than the Richmond. You've had the gearing explained and an example of the resulting rpm range given.

Here's where (I think) it gets to be you who needs to do some of the work if you really want an explanation of "all the benefits of the TKO's, etc." A simple search will get you lots of indformation.

That said, I'm surprised you still need further explanation given the the Richmond is 0 for 3 based on personal experience.


Like I said earlier I am not a gear head and talking about the good and bad about a part or item in depth gives me better understanding and teaches me about cars in general. And I admit I do sometimes ask the same questions but it's just to learn more.

I appreciate all the help but with more opinions comes more knowledge for me.

And yes the TKO sounds like the way to go.

[Ron Fox]

as compared to what? Compared to a Richmond 5 speed, yes, the TKO has an overdrive gear for fifth instead of the Richmonds 1:1 fifth gear. If you're cruising down the freeway at 70 mph with the Richmond and you're turning say 2800 rpms, you'll be between 1800-1900 rpms at the same speed with the TKO, depending on whether you run the TKO500 or the 600 (one is .64 overdrive fifth and the other is .68).

Jody



You mentioned when Doug Nash (now Richmond) came out with the 5 speed it's main benefit was less rpm drop between gears...so does the TKO have a drop off between gears?

[Ron Fox]

As was already stated... a big cube torquey engine will have no problems taking off, but it will be a bear with a short 1st gear.

All high hp cars do not bog down. There is no generalization. This is why we are asking about your motor specs as that will tell what driving characteristics it will have. 2 motors with the same hp number can operate and drive night and day differently. EFI vs carb has something to do with low speed drivability too.

I like my TKO so far (only 250 miles) but I wish I woulda got a T56 for the taller first gear. I have an EFI procharged small block with a fairly big cam, but taking off is not a problem.

The only way I could see you using this Richmond trans is if it was free or $100. It is way overpriced I think, and there is a good reason everyone is running either a TKO or T56.

This is one of those times it's okay to follow the masses. :D

Now I see. So when building my motor I need to be specific (with the builder) on what type of motor I want.

The T56 taller first gear means....you can hold it longer?

Thanks.

[camcojb]

You mentioned when Doug Nash (now Richmond) came out with the 5 speed it's main benefit was less rpm drop between gears...so does the TKO have a drop off between gears?
every transmission has a drop off between gears; that's what makes the car go faster as you upshift. If the gears did not change the car would not accelerate.

The TKO is like a 4 speed with an overdrive gear to lower rpms for fifth gear. The Richmond 5 speed would have less drop between gears as it has five gears from start to 1:1 ratio gear whereas a TKO and T56 have 4............. however, the Richmond doesn't have the overdrive which is a big deal to anyone who goes on the freeway or takes long trips. The overdrive fifth gear will lower engine rpms, less wear and tear, less engine noise when cruising, engine will last longer, and better fuel economy as it isn't spinning as fast.

[Mkelcy]

With respect, I'm a little worried about what you're embarking on.

You needn't be an automotive engineer to own one of these old, retro-modded muscle cars, but a fair amount of familiarity with cars, how they work, basic trouble shooting techniques (is the noise associated with engine speed or car speed) and the like is awfully helpful, otherwise you are at the mercy of your local mechanic, who may or may not even be willing to work on an older, modified car.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but rather to urge you to do a lot of reading, starting with the basics of how engines, transmissions, rear ends, etc. all work, and moving up from there. You also need to know every part that's on your car - i.e., the front brakes came from a 2002 Corvette; the transmission is out of a 2000 Camaro - just to be able to get parts and to get it worked on.

[awr68]

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!! :)

[Vegas69]

Come up with a plan that will make the car as reliable as possible. Putting an old richmond behind a big block pontiac probably isn't a wise choice. When I put my foot on the floor I want to feel confident that I'm not going to scatter a tranny, rear end, drivshaft, etc. So.....
What is your intended purpose for the car?
How much power do you plan to generate?
What rear gear ratio will you be running?
What highway speeds do you frequent?

I would plan on a blow proof bellhousing and a tko 600 or t56 magnum for the power you should generate out of a 455 Pontiac. Otherwise, you will eventually be on the side of the road scratching your head and wishing you put a tranny behind it that was meant to hold up to the torture. If you are a car show guy that putts around, then you can get away with almost anything.

[GregWeld]

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!! :)


Tony --

This is why I said to him earlier -- I wouldn't trust whoever is building the car for him. He's giving him total BS guidance if this is what he's telling him. Or the guy (builder) is clueless. Nobody would build a modern build from the ground up - and put a Richmond 5 speed (non OD) behind a big block built Pontiac. It would be different (MAYBE) if he planned to race it or something like that - where there was a clear reason why you'd do that... but in this case - no such plan has been offered.

RON -- When you say your builder is experienced... what does that mean? Is he a bodyman? A general service shop? A restoration expert? What? What else is he telling you to do with your car?? Spill it all out here and let us try to see what's going on. Do you have pictures you can post? Of the shop? Of the car? Of "before and after"?

[Ron Fox]

every transmission has a drop off between gears; that's what makes the car go faster as you upshift. If the gears did not change the car would not accelerate.

The TKO is like a 4 speed with an overdrive gear to lower rpms for fifth gear. The Richmond 5 speed would have less drop between gears as it has five gears from start to 1:1 ratio gear whereas a TKO and T56 have 4............. however, the Richmond doesn't have the overdrive which is a big deal to anyone who goes on the freeway or takes long trips. The overdrive fifth gear will lower engine rpms, less wear and tear, less engine noise when cruising, engine will last longer, and better fuel economy as it isn't spinning as fast.

Great lesson.

[Ron Fox]

With respect, I'm a little worried about what you're embarking on.

You needn't be an automotive engineer to own one of these old, retro-modded muscle cars, but a fair amount of familiarity with cars, how they work, basic trouble shooting techniques (is the noise associated with engine speed or car speed) and the like is awfully helpful, otherwise you are at the mercy of your local mechanic, who may or may not even be willing to work on an older, modified car.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but rather to urge you to do a lot of reading, starting with the basics of how engines, transmissions, rear ends, etc. all work, and moving up from there. You also need to know every part that's on your car - i.e., the front brakes came from a 2002 Corvette; the transmission is out of a 2000 Camaro - just to be able to get parts and to get it worked on.


I am trying to soak in all the knowledge I can about my car and cars in general. I know I can't learn everything over night.

[Ron Fox]

FWIW, Larry, the owner of PT.com has a Richmond in his car and says it's getting swapped out SOON!

I have driven cars with T56's and liked them a lot! I have a T56 for my car and got it for $1100 and it's a fresh rebuild out of a '97 Camaro.

There ya go....in my mind, I have a far better trans for less money and wouldn't even consider buying the Richmond.

Remember, just because you hired a builder doesn't mean they get to choose the parts....this is your car/build and you make all final decisions...otherwise this isn't going to end well! Job one is to know what you are building and understand it....you are talking a lot of money here, especially when you are paying for labor! Don't get in a hurry...you have time to learn....we all had too!! :)

My car is totally disassembled. It has been media blasted and is in apoxy waiting on metal work to start. He actually has not started on my car at all. I try and go to the shop once a week to look at the progress on the other cars in the shop. When I hang out with him I tend to ask questions about the other builds in the shop. Why did he do this, what's he going to do with this, etc. He explains things to a T. There has been several nights I left the shop with the sun coming up. When I am in the shop we usually talk about the plans for my car. And with each part of the plan I usually ask why do it that way and what are the other choices out there. My builder never pushes anything on me. He gives me options on everyting. I ask alot of questions about my car and I sometimes tend to go overboard.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

Come up with a plan that will make the car as reliable as possible. Putting an old richmond behind a big block pontiac probably isn't a wise choice. When I put my foot on the floor I want to feel confident that I'm not going to scatter a tranny, rear end, drivshaft, etc. So.....
What is your intended purpose for the car?
How much power do you plan to generate?
What rear gear ratio will you be running?
What highway speeds do you frequent?

I would plan on a blow proof bellhousing and a tko 600 or t56 magnum for the power you should generate out of a 455 Pontiac. Otherwise, you will eventually be on the side of the road scratching your head and wishing you put a tranny behind it that was meant to hold up to the torture. If you are a car show guy that putts around, then you can get away with almost anything.

The intended use is for the street. But listening to you guys on here talk about the autocross at places like the Good Guys shows makes me want to try it out.

Hp- 550-650??

Rear not sure.

Highway- I would like to hit the highway a cruise to different gatherings and events and weekend cruise in's, etc.

I want to drive my car and have fun with it on dry, nice days. I have had the car for 28+ years and it has been down for oh I don't know maybe 15 years so I want to drive it again.

Thanks.

[GregWeld]

If he's not 'pushing' stuff on you - and if he's steering you to make the right choices... Then why the heck is he trying to sell you a Richmond 5 speed?

Those two statements don't mesh. I'm not trying to argue with you here - what I'm trying to do is to "enlighten" you just a little bit... or at the very least to start to question who's judgement you're going to follow.

If you hang here long enough - and really read the build threads... you'll find there are people here that have built some pretty serious stuff.. some of us have been building these cars for years and years (about 40 for me personally)... and there is a collective "experience" here that you are (and should continue to) seeking advice from. Advice, however, is different from a total education about every nuance of a build... It seems to me that you don't really have a plan for you build yet. That is a dangerous way to start out. You don't plan these builds as you go. You set a plan - parts selection - looks - feel - paint etc out all in advance. Pro touring cars are a matched set of parts - not a collection of what you can get cheap - or used - or someone has laying around (that is how you build a Rat Rod).

I asked you earlier in this thread - what are your plans for the car - and what are the major parts you plan to use. Engine? Rear end and suspension. Front end suspension. Tire sizes - Wheel sizes. Gearing. etc. How do you plan to use the car? Weekend cruising or Auto X'n or Drag racing or all or what? Because this knowledge makes a HUGE difference on what advice someone would give you. If you don't plan to make huge power and only want to drive to car shows within 50 miles of your house and sit in a parking lot all day and then drive home - you could stick in a 4 speed and probably be happy. If you want drive up the California coast and be able to handle the twisties - then an overdrive transmission is a better choice. If you plan to actually be able to use some of the HP that you've tossed out - then you need a rear end and tires that will allow that. You put a 550 hp Pontiac in there and try to run that into a 10 bolt - and want to be able to light the tires up whenever you want to - you'll be FORD in no time flat. So give us a build sheet...

[GregWeld]

The intended use is for the street. But listening to you guys on here talk about the autocross at places like the Good Guys shows makes me want to try it out.

Hp- 550-650??

Rear not sure.

Highway- I would like to hit the highway a cruise to different gatherings and events and weekend cruise in's, etc.

I want to drive my car and have fun with it on dry, nice days. I have had the car for 28+ years and it has been down for oh I don't know maybe 15 years so I want to drive it again.

Thanks.

My post crossed with yours ---

I'm going to sound really negative here - and I'm not trying to be - what I'm trying to be is dead on honest and I'm trying to HELP you so read it in that light.

Statements like what you've just posted above - are the worst types of "builds" to start with. YOU don't have a real vision for what you want with the car - and that - I can tell you from experience - will lead to a car that isn't going to make you happy - and is going to cost you more money and take longer to build. Here's why I say that.

You've already "changed" what you want out of the car... a driver - that can auto X - and go for cruises because "maybe" you'd like to try that. You have a HP number in your mind - but don't have a rear end choice - and we know you don't have a tranny choice yet. My guess is you haven't even thought about tire/wheel size... and you don't mention anything about suspension... Or BUDGET. Are you on a budget? Or can you just CL it and throw whatever it takes to get 'er done?

A budget will determine what parts get suggested for a build. Big different between the parts on a $35K build - and a $150K build. Are you a competitive guy - ie - you go to a show - do you want to trophy? Or are you happy just to hang out. Ditto - let's say you enter a local Auto X -- and kind of like it (it's addicting) -- are you going to be happy finishing 12th... or are you the type that is going be planning how to improve big time? It doesn't make any difference to anyone here - what personsality you are - but it does - IF YOU'RE HONEST ABOUT IT - help us to guide you. It also helps to connect the personal type (A vs B) with the budget. A type A with limited budget - can build a great handling car on leaf springs (think POZZI'S car for an example - he/she beat everyone in the Auto X - on leaf springs!) - or a type A with a hefty wallet - can build a car with all the "stuff" that they're going to end up with anyway... so if you can afford it - might as well do it now - rather than build the car about 4 different times (Me <---------).

:cheers:

[Ron Fox]

Tony --

This is why I said to him earlier -- I wouldn't trust whoever is building the car for him. He's giving him total BS guidance if this is what he's telling him. Or the guy (builder) is clueless. Nobody would build a modern build from the ground up - and put a Richmond 5 speed (non OD) behind a big block built Pontiac. It would be different (MAYBE) if he planned to race it or something like that - where there was a clear reason why you'd do that... but in this case - no such plan has been offered.

RON -- When you say your builder is experienced... what does that mean? Is he a bodyman? A general service shop? A restoration expert? What? What else is he telling you to do with your car?? Spill it all out here and let us try to see what's going on. Do you have pictures you can post? Of the shop? Of the car? Of "before and after"?


It took me almost 2 years to find the builder I am using. At car shows and gatherings I would ask everyone for information about builders and restorers. When I found my builder, Mike, I talked to him for several months about his experience, his knowledge about cars, his past builds, plans for my car, etc. before he came and picked up my '69. I am a very picky person and I have owned my '69 Firebird for 28+ years and the car is like family to me (odd to say). I got 10 references and talked to a few car owners. 2 guys are even return customers with more than one car.

Mike works out of his large and very nice and clean shop at his house. At the monent he is the lone worker in the shop but has a brother and nephew who help him out from time to time. The shop has its different areas...tear down area, body work area, paint booth, and finishing area. Mike does it all from start to finish. But in the beginning to told Mike that I may part out certain parts of the car like the motor, rear end, etc.

Eventhough I am not a gear head I have helped out by tearing down certain parts of the car, cleaning and media blasting small parts and doing what I can to learn and to save (hourly) money. I have spent many hours in the shop and have learned by this process more about my car.

I have many photos of my car. Not sure if I have too many of the shop. I am at work so I will try and post them soon.

But in general I have faith in my builder. Even though my build has not started we talk back and forth about idea's for my car which are not always set in stone. And of course I will have the final say so before certain work begins and which direction I go. And I will always come on this site to get idea's and opinions from all you guys.

Thanks.

[GregWeld]

Sounds good....

:cheers:

[Vegas69]

I'm sure he's a perfectly good wrench and does quality work. Here's the deal. He may not be experienced in this genre. Going from a turbo 350 to a richmond is probably a nice upgrade. You get the point. When I speak, I speak from experience. It's not because of some parts I have sitting in the corner or what somebody else told me. I built my car, I drive my car, I race my car, I've worked countless bugs out of my car... This site is at the top of the heap as far as innnovation goes. Most of us are chasing the ultimate pro touring car. With that said, don't get sucked into always buying the newest and best thing out there if you have something that works. Only you know what your budget and expectations are. Do yourself a favor and sit down and think about you car, budget, and expectations and put it in writing BEFORE you start slinging money around. Frank @ Prodigy Customs is a really good resource for parts and advice.

[70rs]

I think the bottom line is that everyone with experience with the Richmond is telling you that you probably will not be happy with it. There are better choices.

I am also new to all of this. The advice I have recieved from everyone on this forum and everyone that responded to your questions has been dead on and saved me a ton of headaches. I trust these guys to give me sound advice witout bias.

I hope your build goes well for you and that you get the car of your dreams. But do your research, make a solid plan and then stick to it. Making changes part way through will cost you more time and money that you can imagine.
:cheers:

[Ron Fox]

My post crossed with yours ---

I'm going to sound really negative here - and I'm not trying to be - what I'm trying to be is dead on honest and I'm trying to HELP you so read it in that light.

Statements like what you've just posted above - are the worst types of "builds" to start with. YOU don't have a real vision for what you want with the car - and that - I can tell you from experience - will lead to a car that isn't going to make you happy - and is going to cost you more money and take longer to build. Here's why I say that.

You've already "changed" what you want out of the car... a driver - that can auto X - and go for cruises because "maybe" you'd like to try that. You have a HP number in your mind - but don't have a rear end choice - and we know you don't have a tranny choice yet. My guess is you haven't even thought about tire/wheel size... and you don't mention anything about suspension... Or BUDGET. Are you on a budget? Or can you just CL it and throw whatever it takes to get 'er done?

A budget will determine what parts get suggested for a build. Big different between the parts on a $35K build - and a $150K build. Are you a competitive guy - ie - you go to a show - do you want to trophy? Or are you happy just to hang out. Ditto - let's say you enter a local Auto X -- and kind of like it (it's addicting) -- are you going to be happy finishing 12th... or are you the type that is going be planning how to improve big time? It doesn't make any difference to anyone here - what personsality you are - but it does - IF YOU'RE HONEST ABOUT IT - help us to guide you. It also helps to connect the personal type (A vs B) with the budget. A type A with limited budget - can build a great handling car on leaf springs (think POZZI'S car for an example - he/she beat everyone in the Auto X - on leaf springs!) - or a type A with a hefty wallet - can build a car with all the "stuff" that they're going to end up with anyway... so if you can afford it - might as well do it now - rather than build the car about 4 different times (Me <---------).

:cheers:

This is what I would like to have:

455+ CI (with mods)
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread)
Mini Tubes
335 tires
Wheels (difficult decision-Probably Boze)-Size similiar to Todd Akes set up.
Like to have the DSE sub
Rear 12" (from DSE if I go the total package)
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc.

I want to get the car out on nice days. I want to hit the interstate and the curvy back roads and just drive. I want a nice show like car but I plan on driving it. The auto X would be fun to get into but the wheels and tires I plan on using is not correct for the course.

The budget vision of the car is $50 plus. I don't have all the necessary money up front which will cause the build to take longer. (and my builder know this)

In general I have a vision for my '69. I know what I want but it needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

I'm sure he's a perfectly good wrench and does quality work. Here's the deal. He may not be experienced in this genre. Going from a turbo 350 to a richmond is probably a nice upgrade. You get the point. When I speak, I speak from experience. It's not because of some parts I have sitting in the corner or what somebody else told me. I built my car, I drive my car, I race my car, I've worked countless bugs out of my car... This site is at the top of the heap as far as innnovation goes. Most of us are chasing the ultimate pro touring car. With that said, don't get sucked into always buying the newest and best thing out there if you have something that works. Only you know what your budget and expectations are. Do yourself a favor and sit down and think about you car, budget, and expectations and put it in writing BEFORE you start slinging money around. Frank @ Prodigy Customs is a really good resource for parts and advice.

This is the ultimate site. You guys in here are extremely good at what you do. If I only had half the experience and know how.

I try to step back when I see a new product and like you said not get sucked into buying it because even though it is new it may not be the best or cost efficient for my build. But I like to upgrade in areas like handling, etc.

I guess I should sit down and write out what I want for the car and what I want to get out of the car.

I did send Frank a privite message to chime in on my thread.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

I think the bottom line is that everyone with experience with the Richmond is telling you that you probably will not be happy with it. There are better choices.

I am also new to all of this. The advice I have recieved from everyone on this forum and everyone that responded to your questions has been dead on and saved me a ton of headaches. I trust these guys to give me sound advice witout bias.

I hope your build goes well for you and that you get the car of your dreams. But do your research, make a solid plan and then stick to it. Making changes part way through will cost you more time and money that you can imagine.
:cheers:

Yea, the guys in here know their stuff. I have been behind the scenes for a while reading everyone's problems and solutions. The advice in here is priceless.

I plan on talking to my builder this weekend.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

I had emailed Richmondgear.com several days ago asking about their Richmond 5-Speed. I just got a return email. Thought I would post it anyway. His response:

"If this is a Richmond 5-speed, it would be the same as we manufacture today. The Street 5-speed is a 1.00 to 1 direct drive trans. Not an od. With proper rear gear ratio it can act like an od just from the stand point of reduced rpms. 2.73-3.08 rear gears would allow the trans act as an od."

[Mkelcy]

This is what I would like to have:

455+ CI (with mods)
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread)
Mini Tubes
335 tires
Wheels (difficult decision-Probably Boze)-Size similiar to Todd Akes set up.
Like to have the DSE sub
Rear 12" (from DSE if I go the total package)
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc.

I want to get the car out on nice days. I want to hit the interstate and the curvy back roads and just drive. I want a nice show like car but I plan on driving it. The auto X would be fun to get into but the wheels and tires I plan on using is not correct for the course.

The budget vision of the car is $50 plus. I don't have all the necessary money up front which will cause the build to take longer. (and my builder know this)

In general I have a vision for my '69. I know what I want but it needs to be fine tuned.

Thanks.

455+ CI (with mods) - figure $6K - $8K or so for a good reliable build (with carb, not EFI) at the power levels you're talking about
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread) - Figure $6.5K plus labor
Mini Tubs - Probably $2K (including third party labor)
335 tires & Wheels - Anywhere from $3K to $5K
Like to have the DSE sub - Another $7K or so
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc. - Like Recaros? Figure another $2.5K

So I make it about $29K before body work, paint, powder coating, interior, sound and heat insulation, gauges, HVAC, radio, electrical, engine accessories, headers and exhaust, clutch, fuel system, brakes, engine cooling, transmission, subframe connectors, and all of the other small bits (weather stripping, trim, emblems, etc.).

Your $50K budget is toast already.

To give you some idea, I'm building a '68 Camaro with aftermarket subframe and rear suspension, nice (but not custom) interior, really good seats, BUDGET paint, budget wheels, a GMPP 376/480 engine and so on, and I'll have about $80K - $90K in the car, not including the cost of the car. I've done all the work to the car except media blasting, rust repair and paint and body, so there's very little labor in that number. I have all of the major components sitting here already and I'm in the process of doing final assembly, yet I still find myself ordering $500 worth of stuff from here and $500 worth of stuff from there.

A counter example. I have my "driver" '68 Camaro with stock subframe, stock control arms, Guldstrand mod, SBC, T56, leaf springs, 10 bolt rear and C5 Corvette wheels on adapters. I track the car, take it on multi-thousand mile summer trips, play in the local mountains, etc. It would cost less than a third of what the '68 I'm building will cost to duplicate the "driver" but it's still a fun car that gets lots of comments.

This is a very expensive hobby, and can get totally out of control if you're not careful. So I urge you, as everyone else already has, to sit down and figure out what you want to do, and what it will cost; then double it and that'll be a decent estimate of what it will cost. When that number stuns you, start paring your project and figuring out what's really important and what's not. You may find that a modest build will do everything you want, including being affordable and a project you can actually complete.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I would not mess with the Richmond. I would do TKO600, T56 Magnum, We will have the New Mcloeds in early spring. But no Richmond.

If $50k is our number, we are going to need to trim a few things. A little project planning would go a long way for you.

Let me know if I can be of any help

[GregWeld]

Well.... I'm glad you guys jumped in here on this "budget vs wish list" -- 'cause when I saw it - I said to myself.... "Self!... and Self says to me... Greg!... the list of mods and the list of money don't match...

Ron --- I'm being "funny" here - but it's not funny of course. Cars are like remodeling a house... you make a wish list ... get some "bids" -- then tear into the job. The wife then says -- Well... as long as we're here we might as well do X and X... to which you agree - and then you add - well if we're going to do X and X then I want to do Y and Z... and then the builders budget has change order charges - and you start with the cost overruns. It's why people hate remodel jobs. Personally, I absolutely LOVE remodeling houses - because I don't care what it costs and normally don't even ask for a bid - I just say "this is what I want - is this good or can we do it better"? "What else should we do to make it killer?"

Many of the cars on here - are of the later... in other words - they're exercises in "how do I want it done? Period". "Is it done yet?" LOL

I agree with Frank and Mc - that said - you'll have to do some serious soul searching and figure out what you're going to be willing to sacrifice to the budget god. You can build your car with your budget... but not with the list you tossed out there. If it was me... I'd skip the:

DSE clip and go with Tubular control arms New springs and good shocks
add a sway bar

If the car was a big block - you already have a good rear end? If not - go with a 12 bolt - new leaf springs - good shocks - urethane bushings etc and maybe add some cal tracs

If you have a bb pontiac - just give it a good top quality rebuild - a decent cam -- and maybe for driveability - toss on the FAST EZ EFI - some headers - nice 2 1/2" exhaust.

If you don't have the bb - then just splurge and order a MILDLY built 500 or LESS BB Pontiac - and use the difference for the FAST EZ EFI and headers and Vintage Air or similar serpentine belt set up.

ADD if it doesn't have it already - A/C -- all modern builds should have A/C... it makes the wife want to go - it makes your life nicer - and it increases the value of the car and build. It's easy to add now - and a bitch to add later.

Do a Tremec overdrive transmission - don't cut this corner.

Do disc brakes all the way around. They don't have to be mondo size - and they don't have to be Brembo etc - there are lots of great retro kits out there that will get this car stopped in plenty of time and far better than it did when new.

Do a nice single stage paint job - spend more money on PREP than on paint... the most expensive paint on a poorly prepped body is a total waste! A well prepped laser straight body - with a decent paint job on it is killer - pay more attention to the details of body fitment - door gaps - trunk gaps etc... that is what makes a "quality" car.

DO THE DSE mini tubs... skip this part now - and forever be sorry. With the mini tubs installed - you can run a nice fat tire - and nice looking wheel with modern sizing. To me - this is like the difference between sinks and carpet - you can replace the carpet relatively simply - so no point in spending huge money on it - it gets dirty and dated and is cheap and easy to replace... but how many people do you know rip out their sinks and faucets? So put the money into the stuff you don't "replace"... a hardwood floor is NOT a replacement item - paint on the walls is.

Do the "STRUCTURE" - mini tubs - Engine - Transmission - Rear end - paint and body work. You don't go back to redo these items. Suspension - is a "weekend" project - Brakes are weekend projects - Interiors can be "modified" as money is available... so my advice is - think about what can't be "undone" and redone... if you have to have items hit the cutting room floor. Infrastructure is (to me) - motor/headers - cooling system - steering components (ie - power or rack vs stock etc)... tubs - body - fit and finish - transmission - rear end "housing and axles and gears".

Weekend projects are intake manifolds - carbs - plug wires - valve covers - any and all "dress up" items... not the INTERNALS. Get the suspension "right" - you can upgrade the brakes from a CPP kit to Wilwoods or something like that LATER... Do the dash and it's wiring etc NOW - this is a mess trying to go back and hack it later... Do the Dynamat NOW - you can add electric windows later...

Just "talking here" -- think of it like we were hanging in the garage and blabbing about what you want to do with YOUR car...

[gearheads78]

Lots of good advice from Greg above.

Another vote of an internal rail shifter. I love my TKO600. Its not anything like driving an old car with a muncie and thats what DougNash / Richmond 5 speed would be like.

[70rs]

I want to know how often Self and Greg have conversations.......:_paranoid

And which one wins when you argue?:lol:

[Ron Fox]

455+ CI (with mods) - figure $6K - $8K or so for a good reliable build (with carb, not EFI) at the power levels you're talking about
4-Link set up (preferable DSE but that is another thread) - Figure $6.5K plus labor
Mini Tubs - Probably $2K (including third party labor)
335 tires & Wheels - Anywhere from $3K to $5K
Like to have the DSE sub - Another $7K or so
Upgrade the interior somewhat-seats, etc. - Like Recaros? Figure another $2.5K

So I make it about $29K before body work, paint, powder coating, interior, sound and heat insulation, gauges, HVAC, radio, electrical, engine accessories, headers and exhaust, clutch, fuel system, brakes, engine cooling, transmission, subframe connectors, and all of the other small bits (weather stripping, trim, emblems, etc.).

Your $50K budget is toast already.

To give you some idea, I'm building a '68 Camaro with aftermarket subframe and rear suspension, nice (but not custom) interior, really good seats, BUDGET paint, budget wheels, a GMPP 376/480 engine and so on, and I'll have about $80K - $90K in the car, not including the cost of the car. I've done all the work to the car except media blasting, rust repair and paint and body, so there's very little labor in that number. I have all of the major components sitting here already and I'm in the process of doing final assembly, yet I still find myself ordering $500 worth of stuff from here and $500 worth of stuff from there.

A counter example. I have my "driver" '68 Camaro with stock subframe, stock control arms, Guldstrand mod, SBC, T56, leaf springs, 10 bolt rear and C5 Corvette wheels on adapters. I track the car, take it on multi-thousand mile summer trips, play in the local mountains, etc. It would cost less than a third of what the '68 I'm building will cost to duplicate the "driver" but it's still a fun car that gets lots of comments.

This is a very expensive hobby, and can get totally out of control if you're not careful. So I urge you, as everyone else already has, to sit down and figure out what you want to do, and what it will cost; then double it and that'll be a decent estimate of what it will cost. When that number stuns you, start paring your project and figuring out what's really important and what's not. You may find that a modest build will do everything you want, including being affordable and a project you can actually complete.

I understand it can be very expensive and is very expensive to build a car. I have researched the prices on the item's I would like to have and they are not cheap. I know everything adds up even the small parts. A while back my builder asked me what I wanted out of my car and what parts I had in mind (engine, rear end, suspension, etc.) He said Ron you know you are talking about a $75 to $80K car. My answer above was $50 PLUS depending on which way I go with certain parts such as an after market sub or use of my stock sub, a somewhat stock/modified 455 or a heavy modified motor, high end wheels or cool budget wheels, etc.

Is it possible to have a plan A with all the parts and upgrades I want and then waver with a plan B with only the parts needed to get me up and running? Or do I need to stick with one or the other? I can build the car I want but it will take me a few extra years to complete it.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

I would not mess with the Richmond. I would do TKO600, T56 Magnum, We will have the New Mcloeds in early spring. But no Richmond.

If $50k is our number, we are going to need to trim a few things. A little project planning would go a long way for you.

Let me know if I can be of any help

Thanks Frank for your Richmond opinion. Looks like TREMEC is the way to go.

$50K PLUS is the low end of the build. And yes I need to set down and put my thoughts and prices on paper. A high end build is not out of my reach (it would just take me longer to build) but it also may not be the right way to go.

Are you able to get certain parts at better prices?

Thanks.

[camcojb]

Thanks Frank for your Richmond opinion. Looks like TREMEC is the way to go.

$50K PLUS is the low end of the build. And yes I need to set down and put my thoughts and prices on paper. A high end build is not out of my reach (it would just take me longer to build) but it also may not be the right way to go.

Are you able to get certain parts at better prices?

Thanks.

build something that you can afford to do in a reasonable time frame. You don't want to do a long term proiject, too easy to lose interest, constantly changing directions as new things come to the market, plus even though it's cool and modern when designed could be dated by the time it's done.

Build a car that fits the budget and make further changes as money allows. You can actually plan it this way so you're not buying everything twice...........

Jody

[Ron Fox]

Well.... I'm glad you guys jumped in here on this "budget vs wish list" -- 'cause when I saw it - I said to myself.... "Self!... and Self says to me... Greg!... the list of mods and the list of money don't match...

Ron --- I'm being "funny" here - but it's not funny of course. Cars are like remodeling a house... you make a wish list ... get some "bids" -- then tear into the job. The wife then says -- Well... as long as we're here we might as well do X and X... to which you agree - and then you add - well if we're going to do X and X then I want to do Y and Z... and then the builders budget has change order charges - and you start with the cost overruns. It's why people hate remodel jobs. Personally, I absolutely LOVE remodeling houses - because I don't care what it costs and normally don't even ask for a bid - I just say "this is what I want - is this good or can we do it better"? "What else should we do to make it killer?"

Many of the cars on here - are of the later... in other words - they're exercises in "how do I want it done? Period". "Is it done yet?" LOL

I agree with Frank and Mc - that said - you'll have to do some serious soul searching and figure out what you're going to be willing to sacrifice to the budget god. You can build your car with your budget... but not with the list you tossed out there. If it was me... I'd skip the:

DSE clip and go with Tubular control arms New springs and good shocks
add a sway bar

If the car was a big block - you already have a good rear end? If not - go with a 12 bolt - new leaf springs - good shocks - urethane bushings etc and maybe add some cal tracs

If you have a bb pontiac - just give it a good top quality rebuild - a decent cam -- and maybe for driveability - toss on the FAST EZ EFI - some headers - nice 2 1/2" exhaust.

If you don't have the bb - then just splurge and order a MILDLY built 500 or LESS BB Pontiac - and use the difference for the FAST EZ EFI and headers and Vintage Air or similar serpentine belt set up.

ADD if it doesn't have it already - A/C -- all modern builds should have A/C... it makes the wife want to go - it makes your life nicer - and it increases the value of the car and build. It's easy to add now - and a bitch to add later.

Do a Tremec overdrive transmission - don't cut this corner.

Do disc brakes all the way around. They don't have to be mondo size - and they don't have to be Brembo etc - there are lots of great retro kits out there that will get this car stopped in plenty of time and far better than it did when new.

Do a nice single stage paint job - spend more money on PREP than on paint... the most expensive paint on a poorly prepped body is a total waste! A well prepped laser straight body - with a decent paint job on it is killer - pay more attention to the details of body fitment - door gaps - trunk gaps etc... that is what makes a "quality" car.

DO THE DSE mini tubs... skip this part now - and forever be sorry. With the mini tubs installed - you can run a nice fat tire - and nice looking wheel with modern sizing. To me - this is like the difference between sinks and carpet - you can replace the carpet relatively simply - so no point in spending huge money on it - it gets dirty and dated and is cheap and easy to replace... but how many people do you know rip out their sinks and faucets? So put the money into the stuff you don't "replace"... a hardwood floor is NOT a replacement item - paint on the walls is.

Do the "STRUCTURE" - mini tubs - Engine - Transmission - Rear end - paint and body work. You don't go back to redo these items. Suspension - is a "weekend" project - Brakes are weekend projects - Interiors can be "modified" as money is available... so my advice is - think about what can't be "undone" and redone... if you have to have items hit the cutting room floor. Infrastructure is (to me) - motor/headers - cooling system - steering components (ie - power or rack vs stock etc)... tubs - body - fit and finish - transmission - rear end "housing and axles and gears".

Weekend projects are intake manifolds - carbs - plug wires - valve covers - any and all "dress up" items... not the INTERNALS. Get the suspension "right" - you can upgrade the brakes from a CPP kit to Wilwoods or something like that LATER... Do the dash and it's wiring etc NOW - this is a mess trying to go back and hack it later... Do the Dynamat NOW - you can add electric windows later...

Just "talking here" -- think of it like we were hanging in the garage and blabbing about what you want to do with YOUR car...

Great advise Greg. I agree with you about doing the structure items, tubs, motor, rear end, transmission (TKO of course) paint and body. With these areas I do not want to have to go backwards and redo. An after market sub would be nice but not necessary. Is it possible to get the killer stance without a new sub and 4-link set up? The mini's are a must since the car is stripped down to the shell.

I agree with the weekend projects. All these area's can be dealt with without going backwards.

Actually your advice sounds like the advice my builder gave me a year or two ago (after I told him what I wanted). He said just get a stock 455 add some upgrades with a good cam, heads, carb, etc. and I would have a great motor to play with.

Again, great advice. Sorry to get subject away from transmissions but I am glad we did.

Thanks and please keep the info heading my way.

[Ron Fox]

Lots of good advice from Greg above.

Another vote of an internal rail shifter. I love my TKO600. Its not anything like driving an old car with a muncie and thats what DougNash / Richmond 5 speed would be like.
Thanks for the TKO vote.

[Ron Fox]

build something that you can afford to do in a reasonable time frame. You don't want to do a long term proiject, too easy to lose interest, constantly changing directions as new things come to the market, plus even though it's cool and modern when designed could be dated by the time it's done.

Build a car that fits the budget and make further changes as money allows. You can actually plan it this way so you're not buying everything twice...........

Jody

I have not bought anything just yet (except for quarters, rockers, used hood, new trunk and floor). I don't want to buy anything new now because like you said something else new will come out before I end up putting on the part. Actually at the moment I just want the metal work stage to begin.

I have heard of people losing interest but I don't think it will happen to me. I have always had a vision of rebuilding my '69 and I made a promise to myself a long time ago to rebuild it one day. I actually wanted to do this project with my father (he was a gear head) after he retired but I waited to late. He passed away a little over 5 years ago.

Thanks for your advice.

[GregWeld]

Ron --

Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one! LOL

I think you've got a good handle on it. Don't forget to write it all down - stick to it. Anyone will tell you when building a car - it's so easy to loose sight of the ball... and it's like Chess... you add one piece - you have to move or redo two... and then you're in the spiral.

STANCE is all about wheels and tire sizes --- and your suspension. It's all a "trade off" - low stance has it's own set of issues like hitting bottom over big driveway humps etc - but nothing beats the look IF you've willing to make the trade off. Ditto big wheels with rubber band tires - it's the old "pea under a mattress"... you'll feel every pot hole - and undulation in the road. But you gain looks and performance... Somewhere in between is the right combo for YOU... what do you want to trade? Stance is so important - if you want a "looker" - and let's face - who doesn't? That's why body fitment and flatness is so important... Stance - nice paint - great body - the right set of tires and wheels -- you got it going on!

Your builder should MOCK UP the stance before you ever buy a single part... You'll see this being shown/done on almost every build posted here. It's SO IMPORTANT... because you can't get there from here if you don't have an address and a map! Set up the look - take pictures - tape them on the car - or near the car - for reference. People will let you "borrow" tires... as long as they're not MOUNTED on wheels - and you don't mess them up... Well - and as long as you're not a pest...

When I'm looking for tires and wheels - I go to shows and when I see something I like - I do the digital picture thing --- take a close up of the size so you don't forget - and the car and the stance. Once you have a firm grip on what you want - show your builder and he should know how to mock it up from there.

A funny 'story' on this "posting pictures on the car"... I had a 36 Ford - real Henry - 5 window - body was done - and in primer... patch panels etc all done... I mocked up the fenders and running boards - hood - grill. Had to tack weld them on using some 1" square tubing... but you have to SEE the car.... so I've got colored quickly printed pictures all over the trunk lid - one showing the color I like - the other a set of wheels I liked - a couple more of similar cars with the stance... one with the door handles on - and another with it slicked... I pushed this car around in the shed for a year... changing the pictures with updated versions as I found them. Now I'm getting closer to having the car in my mind - but - BIG BUTT - I'm really trying to make the 36 five window into a 37 three window with a chopped top. I wanted to change the hood - the trunk - the 5 windows gone and so that was chop and section the lid etc.... FINALLY I realized I didn't want to build the 36 --- I wanted a 37 ! So -- sold the 36 and shopped 'til I found a suitable 37 --- and NOW I'm happy. Sometimes you just have to "live with it" awhile before it dawns on you what it is that you really want. :rofl: :rofl:

[Ron Fox]

Ron --

Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody has one! LOL

I think you've got a good handle on it. Don't forget to write it all down - stick to it. Anyone will tell you when building a car - it's so easy to loose sight of the ball... and it's like Chess... you add one piece - you have to move or redo two... and then you're in the spiral.

STANCE is all about wheels and tire sizes --- and your suspension. It's all a "trade off" - low stance has it's own set of issues like hitting bottom over big driveway humps etc - but nothing beats the look IF you've willing to make the trade off. Ditto big wheels with rubber band tires - it's the old "pea under a mattress"... you'll feel every pot hole - and undulation in the road. But you gain looks and performance... Somewhere in between is the right combo for YOU... what do you want to trade? Stance is so important - if you want a "looker" - and let's face - who doesn't? That's why body fitment and flatness is so important... Stance - nice paint - great body - the right set of tires and wheels -- you got it going on!

Your builder should MOCK UP the stance before you ever buy a single part... You'll see this being shown/done on almost every build posted here. It's SO IMPORTANT... because you can't get there from here if you don't have an address and a map! Set up the look - take pictures - tape them on the car - or near the car - for reference. People will let you "borrow" tires... as long as they're not MOUNTED on wheels - and you don't mess them up... Well - and as long as you're not a pest...

When I'm looking for tires and wheels - I go to shows and when I see something I like - I do the digital picture thing --- take a close up of the size so you don't forget - and the car and the stance. Once you have a firm grip on what you want - show your builder and he should know how to mock it up from there.

A funny 'story' on this "posting pictures on the car"... I had a 36 Ford - real Henry - 5 window - body was done - and in primer... patch panels etc all done... I mocked up the fenders and running boards - hood - grill. Had to tack weld them on using some 1" square tubing... but you have to SEE the car.... so I've got colored quickly printed pictures all over the trunk lid - one showing the color I like - the other a set of wheels I liked - a couple more of similar cars with the stance... one with the door handles on - and another with it slicked... I pushed this car around in the shed for a year... changing the pictures with updated versions as I found them. Now I'm getting closer to having the car in my mind - but - BIG BUTT - I'm really trying to make the 36 five window into a 37 three window with a chopped top. I wanted to change the hood - the trunk - the 5 windows gone and so that was chop and section the lid etc.... FINALLY I realized I didn't want to build the 36 --- I wanted a 37 ! So -- sold the 36 and shopped 'til I found a suitable 37 --- and NOW I'm happy. Sometimes you just have to "live with it" awhile before it dawns on you what it is that you really want. :rofl: :rofl:

Yea, I like the killer stance with the right wheel choice. I do not like the skinny tires that a lot of people run. I want the car with a good stance but l don't want to have to worry about bottoming out wherever I go.

I have seen on this site how everyone mocks up their stance. I told my builder awhile back that I want the stance mocked up as well (and even the car mocked up after metal work and before paint to make sure all body panels fit correctly.)

I have taken many photos of cars at shows and cruise in's. The photo's give me future idea's of what I want. (wheel combo, engine bay color, body color, interior, etc) I also have many car magazines with more good idea's for my car. I have gone to shows with my builder showing him what I like which is a huge plus. At work on my computer I have downloaded several hundred car photo's to get examples also. I actually like the look and stance and even the wheels of Todd Akes '69.

Funny story about your '37.

Thanks.

[T_Raven]

It looks like you've already decided against the Richmond but I'd like to add a few things for anyone that might debate this later. And it's good general info about gear sizes.

I was looking at a 69 Firebird that had a Richmond 5 speed and 3.55 rear gears. That would make for 3500 rpms at 75 mph, definitely not acceptable. A TKO 600 with a .68 5th gear would be closer to 2500 rpms at 75, so that's much better. To turn 2500 rpm @ 75 with a 1:1 5th gear you'd need about a 2.40:1 rear gear and I don't even know where to buy anything numerically lower than 3.08, so gears would cost more and offset the savings of a Richmond 5 speed for anyone debating the two.

Richmond advertises that they made a 1:1 5 speed because it's quieter. At a 1:1 ratio you can design a trans to lock the input and output shafts rather than spinning gears to get an over drive, making less noise. I've never noticed an over drive trans to be too noisy though so that's a pointless way to do it in my eyes. To make up for no over drive they gear the whole thing lower so you can use taller rear gears and still have similar gearing overall and low cruise rpm, but like I said, where do you find 2:40:1 gears? Also having a 3.28:1 1st gear is part of what makes the Richmond weeker. To have a higher ratio the two gears need to be further apart in size making for less contact between the two, making for a weeker pair of gears. This is why the TKO 500 with it's 3.27:1 1st gear is weeker than the TKO 600 with it's 2.87:1 1st gear.

The Richmond was part of the reason I didn't buy the dude's car. I would've had to spend quite a bit to change that and a few other things and he wouldn't come down on price enough.

[Flash68]

Like Greg said, run a poll and you will get 100 answers for TKO and Tremec, but 1 or 2 at best for Richmond.

[andrewb70]

I have the Richmond 6spd in my car and its a decent trans. Many times the shifting problems that people experience are self inflicted. This can also be said about the TKO-600 that many people complain about with shifting into 3rd gear. The Richmond uses an older style synchro design that needs lube with MORE friction. I initially was running GL5 spec synthetic and the transmission shifted very poorly. I later switched to some GL4 conventional fluid and the shifting improved tremendously. The Long shifter is very precise when it is adjusted correctly.

As for the gear ratio issue, the Richmond has better ratios by far. I would run a 2.56 gear in a Pontiac with the Richmond 5spd. This will give you great highway cruising RPM and have enough gear to get you out of the hole, given the 3.28 first gear. One thing that many people don't consider is driveshaft speed. Using a trans with a 1:1 first gear and a higher rear end ratio (low number) will reduce the driveshaft speed compared to a lower rear end ratio (higher number) and an overdrive transmission. Food for thought.

Andrew

[GregWeld]

Well Flash - we have one of the two votes you predicted!!! :rofl: :rofl:

[andrewb70]

Well Flash - we have one of the two votes you predicted!!! :rofl: :rofl:

I did not vote for anything. I just pointed out an angle that no one has mentioned. There are many things to consider when choosing a transmission. Driveshaft speed is a very legitimate concern. There is a reason why Pontiac chose different gear ratios for the 2004-2006 GTO. There is also a reason why 4th gen f-bodies were never offered with any ratio above 3.42.

Andrew

[GregWeld]

Pontiac Firebird -- in this year (1969) used a GM - BOP rear end - the lowest gear set I found at Randy's Ring and Pinion was a 3:36

The gear set you used (2:56) is offered - as long as he has a completely different rear end - and was used from 1970... so not compatible with the carrier in his (assuming he has stock rear end) car.

Using the Richmond he was asking about - would have him turning 3000 rpm's at a whopping 69 mph - using an assumed tire diameter of 26 inches.

Plain and simple - there's no compelling argument one could make for using this transmission given his intended use. We weren't discussing a Richmond 6 speed - only the Richmond 5 speed - typically called a 4 + 1. Since he's starting off with a fresh build - "we" (most of the respondents here) were advising to go with an OVERDRIVE transmission for best all around drivability - gas milage - and fun factor.

[andrewb70]

Pontiac Firebird -- in this year (1969) used a GM - BOP rear end - the lowest gear set I found at Randy's Ring and Pinion was a 3:36

The gear set you used (2:56) is offered - as long as he has a completely different rear end - and was used from 1970... so not compatible with the carrier in his (assuming he has stock rear end) car.

Using the Richmond he was asking about - would have him turning 3000 rpm's at a whopping 69 mph - using an assumed tire diameter of 26 inches.

Plain and simple - there's no compelling argument one could make for using this transmission given his intended use. We weren't discussing a Richmond 6 speed - only the Richmond 5 speed - typically called a 4 + 1. Since he's starting off with a fresh build - "we" (most of the respondents here) were advising to go with an OVERDRIVE transmission for best all around drivability - gas milage - and fun factor.

You sure can talk, but you don't listen at all, do you?

Andrew

[GregWeld]

I listened -- read your post TWICE -- your facts just don't hold much water. You are recommending a gear ratio that doesn't exist for his application... so your facts are based on erroneous data.

As for driveline critical speed... a typical 3.5" mild steel driveline of 50" length has a critical speed exceeding 9000 rpms...

So if you crank in your hypothetical 2:56 gear set - and a 1:1 final drive - using a 26" diameter tire... He'd have to exceed 300 MPH. Pretty impressive - but hardly worth discussing.

Using an overdrive trans - as above with a 3:73 -- he'd only have to exceed 150 MPH to achieve the magic critical speed number... again - I'm thinking he's not going to be running the car that much at these speeds. If he is - he can order a driveline that will handle it with ease.

:cheers:

[GregWeld]

I did not vote for anything. I just pointed out an angle that no one has mentioned. There are many things to consider when choosing a transmission. Driveshaft speed is a very legitimate concern. There is a reason why Pontiac chose different gear ratios for the 2004-2006 GTO. There is also a reason why 4th gen f-bodies were never offered with any ratio above 3.42.

Andrew

Using this same logic - ya think there's a reason that Pontiac didn't use a RICHMOND? :rofl:

[andrewb70]

Using this same logic - ya think there's a reason that Pontiac didn't use a RICHMOND? :rofl:

I see you are still trying to pick a fight, and that's OK. You obviously had a bad experience with the Richmond transmission and now you are on a mission to enlighten the masses. Kudos to you.

Shifting quality can be effected by any number of things. Certainly the design of the transmission internals is important, as is the design and adjustment of the shifter. The other factors that are often overlooked are fluid type and clutch adjustment. I mentioned before that the Richmond requires a lubricant with MORE friction. This allows the synchros to have more "bite" which improves the shift quality tremendously. It is also vital that the air gap on the clutch is properly set. Any drag on the clutch disk during a shift will make the shifting feel "hard."

Every transmission has pros and cons. The weight of each pro and con is very subjective. Some people want ultimate strength. Others want shift quality. For others, a quiet transmission is most important. We are blessed to have such a great number of available transmission options on the market today. 25 years ago it was simple. Do you want a wide ratio Muncie or a close ratio Muncie? If strength was more important, then the M22 was king, but you were stuck with a 2.20 first gear.

Here are a list of pros and cons regarding the Richmond.

Pros.

Great gear selection http://www.richmondgear.com/07pdfs/RG24.pdf
No major transmission tunnel surgery required (big issue for a-bodies)
Easy to service
Great parts availability (most parts stocked by Jegs and Summit)
Relatively light weight (especially compared to T56)

Cons
Ultimate strength (although I have yet to see a documented case of major carnage)
Shift quality (much of this is user induced due to poor lubricant selection and clutch adjustment)
Price
External shifter design (although this can be a pro when you consider the ease of adjustability compared to an internal rail design)

My point is that every product has pros and cons that must be examined in the context of the application. To make blanket statements like "All Richmond transmissions are junk," is just immature and naive.

Andrew

[camcojb]

I'll stop short of calling the Richmond "crap", but after owning two of them and driving several of their 5 and 6 speed trannies, I'd never buy another. I just think the TKO's and T56's are better in pretty much every way, and can be found used for the same or less than this particular used Richmond.

Jody

[GregWeld]

Andrew -

I was not trying to pick any fight... and I have 1100 posts on this board that would prove that fact. My "fight" is with facts that don't jive...

I understand what you're saying about the Richmond transmissions - adjustment - and gear oil (same holds true for posi rear ends BTW). But I'll return to the original post - which was "should he buy a Richmond 5 speed". And the overwhelming advice - from people who know - was ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Your post was defending your choice of a Richmond 6 speed... a completely different transmission... Yes - the argument that Richmond has some nice choices for gear spread can be made. But that is really kind of a mute point for a street cruiser unless there was a reason for needing the tighter gearing for less rpm drop. Your defense of using the Richmond 5 speed was based on a gear ratio that doesn't exist as a choice... and then you sprinkled in critical speed of the driveline... Which is also useless info, unless it was based on some facts that would support the reason for tossing it in. In other words - if he should choose to use the 2:56 gear, and was going to spin his motor to 7000 rpms, and is trying to set the land speed record at Bonneville... Then, yes, he should watch out for driveline critical speed problems which would occur at 6000 rpms with 26" tires and 300 mph. I was merely showing that those issues aren't supported by the facts - so are really not part of the discussion. There is support of the fact that the Richmond 5 speed is a notchy shifting transmission. Anyone that has shifted one would not argue that point. Are they road worthy and beefy... sure.

I am not arguing your choice of a Richmond 6 speed either. Nor would I argue whether or not it can/could be a good choice... Just be FACTUAL. If not, then expect to get your azz handed to you. These forums need to be factual - and informed - otherwise we get a bunch of yahoos on here espousing useless rumor and speculation about what could be because their buddy once was going to do it... So lets kiss and make up. We all want to learn things - I just don't want to lean things that aren't factual/useful.

:lateral: :cheers:

[Ron Fox]

It looks like you've already decided against the Richmond but I'd like to add a few things for anyone that might debate this later. And it's good general info about gear sizes.

I was looking at a 69 Firebird that had a Richmond 5 speed and 3.55 rear gears. That would make for 3500 rpms at 75 mph, definitely not acceptable. A TKO 600 with a .68 5th gear would be closer to 2500 rpms at 75, so that's much better. To turn 2500 rpm @ 75 with a 1:1 5th gear you'd need about a 2.40:1 rear gear and I don't even know where to buy anything numerically lower than 3.08, so gears would cost more and offset the savings of a Richmond 5 speed for anyone debating the two.

Richmond advertises that they made a 1:1 5 speed because it's quieter. At a 1:1 ratio you can design a trans to lock the input and output shafts rather than spinning gears to get an over drive, making less noise. I've never noticed an over drive trans to be too noisy though so that's a pointless way to do it in my eyes. To make up for no over drive they gear the whole thing lower so you can use taller rear gears and still have similar gearing overall and low cruise rpm, but like I said, where do you find 2:40:1 gears? Also having a 3.28:1 1st gear is part of what makes the Richmond weeker. To have a higher ratio the two gears need to be further apart in size making for less contact between the two, making for a weeker pair of gears. This is why the TKO 500 with it's 3.27:1 1st gear is weeker than the TKO 600 with it's 2.87:1 1st gear.

The Richmond was part of the reason I didn't buy the dude's car. I would've had to spend quite a bit to change that and a few other things and he wouldn't come down on price enough.

Thanks T for your info. How far along are you on your '67 Bird? Did you ever use the T56? If so how do you like it?

Are you still in Iraq or are you finally home?

[Ron Fox]

Thanks Greg and Andrew. It's good to see a healthy debate over Transmissions and it opens up my eyes to what's out there.

Hopefully more chime in to this debate.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

Are there any representatives from TREMEC or Richmond on this site?

Thanks.

[T_Raven]

Thanks T for your info. How far along are you on your '67 Bird? Did you ever use the T56? If so how do you like it?

Are you still in Iraq or are you finally home?

I'm still in Iraq, hopefully I'll be done within the next year.

I'm not too far with the car, mostly just gathering parts. I have everthing to put the t56 in but haven't done it yet. I have been satisfied with the t56 cars I've driven though. My 01 shifts hard but with 160k miles I think a new clutch would solve that. A TKO would probably be an easier install, but I got my t56 cheap and I'm pretty tall so I like that the t56 puts the shifter farther back. I won't be using a factory console anyway.

Good luck with the build. I think this has made for a good thread for anyone debating this in the future.:thumbsup:

[Ron Fox]

I'm still in Iraq, hopefully I'll be done within the next year.

I'm not too far with the car, mostly just gathering parts. I have everthing to put the t56 in but haven't done it yet. I have been satisfied with the t56 cars I've driven though. My 01 shifts hard but with 160k miles I think a new clutch would solve that. A TKO would probably be an easier install, but I got my t56 cheap and I'm pretty tall so I like that the t56 puts the shifter farther back. I won't be using a factory console anyway.

Good luck with the build. I think this has made for a good thread for anyone debating this in the future.:thumbsup:

I have not done all my homework about the TKO 500 & 600 but do both of these fit into the '69 Firebird (with a console) without any problems?

Thanks for your service!!

[T_Raven]

I have not done all my homework about the TKO 500 & 600 but do both of these fit into the '69 Firebird (with a console) without any problems?

Thanks for your service!!

Yeah with the different shifter placements you can get the shifter in the right spot. I just saw on p-t.com that Mcleod will be releasing their new M800 5 speed that is designed to fit w/o mods to floors and such. It won't be available until March but it looks pretty sweet. http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62594

[Ron Fox]

Yeah with the different shifter placements you can get the shifter in the right spot. I just saw on p-t.com that Mcleod will be releasing their new M800 5 speed that is designed to fit w/o mods to floors and such. It won't be available until March but it looks pretty sweet. http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62594

I do not know anything about the Mcleod trans. (and just learning about the other trans as you can tell lol)

Do you know anything about the Mcleod's?

Thanks.

[T_Raven]

I only found out about it today in that thread. It was just debuted at sema. I guess it's rated at 800 ft lbs, is physically smaller than other over drives, and should cost around $2300 from what Frank at Prodigy Customs said. The Mcleod guy said they won't be out till march though.

[Ron Fox]

I only found out about it today in that thread. It was just debuted at sema. I guess it's rated at 800 ft lbs, is physically smaller than other over drives, and should cost around $2300 from what Frank at Prodigy Customs said. The Mcleod guy said they won't be out till march though.


I like the torque rating and the smaller size. If Frank is using them then it should be a good product.

[Ron Fox]

Would everyone please tell me what transmission you are running, your car's hp and torque rating, your 1st gear ratio, what rear gear you have, and what your 5th gear rpm is. I am just curious on everyone's response.

Thanks for the help.

[Flash68]

Would everyone please tell me what transmission you are running, your car's hp and torque rating, your 1st gear ratio, what rear gear you have, and what your 5th gear rpm is. I am just curious on everyone's response.

Thanks for the help.

Wow Ron I thought I had analysis paralysis. :lol:

TKO 600 w/ .64 OD
650-750hp/tq depending on boost
2.87 1st gear
3.70 rear gear
5th gear rpm around 2200rpm @ 75mph on recent road trip.

[Ron Fox]

Good one Flash.

This may sound like an odd question but would a high hp motor like yours with a low rpm 5th gear (2200) damage the motor in anyway?

Thanks.

[Flash68]

Good one Flash.

This may sound like an odd question but would a high hp motor like yours with a low rpm 5th gear (2200) damage the motor in anyway?

Thanks.

No damage at that rpm that I am aware of. I have EFI which definitely helps, but if you are carbed and running at maybe 2000rpm or much lower you could get some bogging and bucking I guess? I don't know at what point/scenario some specific damage might occur though. I'll let someone more knowledgeable answer that one.

[GregWeld]

:beathorse


:cheers: :woot:

[Ron Fox]

I know I know but I can only learn by asking questions.

Thanks.

[Ron Fox]

Let me ask this question.

What first gear and what rear gear would I need to have a comfortable take off from 1st to 2nd gear in bumper to bumper traffic or pull up in and backing up in a parking spot without the car wanting to take off on me? (with 600+ hp)

Thanks.

[camcojb]

Let me ask this question.

What first gear and what rear gear would I need to have a comfortable take off from 1st to 2nd gear in bumper to bumper traffic or pull up in and backing up in a parking spot without the car wanting to take off on me? (with 600+ hp)

Thanks.
it doesn't work that way. Just because it has 600 hp does not mean it wants to "take off on you......." You still control the gas pedal.

[GregWeld]

Ron --

You need to understand HORSEPOWER.... You don't have "600 Horsepower" at idle or just off idle -- or even at 1500 rpms....

The questions you're asking are just all wrong. Nobody can answer them. There are so many variables - like tire size - cam - cubic inches - rear gear...

Is the motor RADICAL - or is it a pretty tame build - that just happens to make that HP - a Twin Turbo small block can make 1000 hp and drive like a Lexus around town... a big block Pontiac will make so much low end torque (the only good part of any Pontiac motor) that you won't need HORSEPOWER - which by the way - is ONLY a mathematical equation of how much TORQUE you make and what RPMS you're turning...

So if you're big block motor is built with a .700 lift cam - with radical duration - and doesn't make ANY torque below 2500 RPMs -- you're going to have a motor that SUCKS big time for the kind of driving you're asking about... but if you build a nice big block Pontiac with 455 cubic inches and are making 400 ft lbs of TQ at 2000 rpms --- it's going to drive easy - and like a street car should. It's going to FEEL powerful - without being a beast to drive.

So if you build a drivetrain like everyone is telling you to --- a 500 hp 455 Pontiac - Tremec 5 or 6 speed OVERDRIVE - 3:70ish rear gears.... 18" 40 series or 19" 35 series tires -- you're going to have a very nice combo that you'd love to drive and will be hugely powerful without issues. You want to snot it up a couple of notches and start making 700 hp - then it's still all about the CAM and where it makes it's power... and THEN you figure what gears/tranny you NEED to make that combo work.

[Ron Fox]

Thanks Greg and JB and everyone else for your in site, opinions, and help.

I will have more questions about my car and parts as each stage of my build comes along. Now if I could only get my builder to start the metal stage...

Thanks.

[Vegas69]

Good one Flash.

This may sound like an odd question but would a high hp motor like yours with a low rpm 5th gear (2200) damage the motor in anyway?

Thanks.

I can cruise at 1600-2000 rpm in 5th with mine and it's got a pretty big cam on a 114 lobe separtation. Of course I only do it on flat ground under minimum loads. Big block torque.:D

[Ron Fox]

I can cruise at 1600-2000 rpm in 5th with mine and it's got a pretty big cam on a 114 lobe separtation. Of course I only do it on flat ground under minimum loads. Big block torque.:D

Is there any possibility of damaging the motor (with a high hp or even a not so high hp motor) if rpm's go below a certain number?

Thanks.

[David Pozzi]

My wife has a Richmond 5 speed in her 73 Camaro. To me it's about as hard to shift as a Muncie 4 speed, maybe a little bit stiffer. It got a lot easier to shift after some break in miles, we use regular non-synthetic oil. Mary loves it and has no complaints, but the shift effort is more than a T56. We have the Hurst shifter which is probably easier to shift than the Long shifter, the long has a shorter stick.

I love the closer gear spacing of the Richmond, but it MUST be used with a 3:08 rear gear or taller. I drove a BB Chevelle with a Richmond and 3:73 rear gears the gears were WAY too close and close gears are not needed with BB torque. You really feel this when just loafing along from a stop light and you are rowing through the gears just to get up to 65 mph. I think the Richmond is more suited to a small block, especially a higher revving small block.

I have been told they are not as strong as the other choices out there. The Richmond has a 450 foot lb rating. This is probably a conservative rating allowing the trans to last many many miles. It does lack support of the gear train in the center which is where failures are reported. The main case splits in half so it's very easy to work on. 5th gear ratio is 1 to 1 so the drive shaft is not spinning faster than your engine.

With your hp and torque, I'd look at a Tremec or T56, especially if you want to do hard drag launches. Common performance gearing for the T56 is 3:90, but you may want to gear a bit lower numerically.
Here's a gear chart I did for our Richmond to plot shift points and rpm drops. Follow the chart to your shift rpm, then draw a line down to the next gear to read your rpm's you will be at after the shift.

FYI, a new Richmond is around $1900. The Hurst shifter is another $300, plus shipping and tax, then add a new yoke.


http://www.pozziracing.com/Media/richmond_chart.gif
Here is a tremec for comparison. I did this chart a few years ago, so this isn't the newest Tremec model. Verify the gear ratios of whatever Tremec you are considering.
http://www.pozziracing.com/Media/Tremec_chart.gif

[Ron Fox]

My wife has a Richmond 5 speed in her 73 Camaro. To me it's about as hard to shift as a Muncie 4 speed, maybe a little bit stiffer. It got a lot easier to shift after some break in miles, we use regular non-synthetic oil. Mary loves it and has no complaints, but the shift effort is more than a T56. We have the Hurst shifter which is probably easier to shift than the Long shifter, the long has a shorter stick.

I love the closer gear spacing of the Richmond, but it MUST be used with a 3:08 rear gear or taller. I drove a BB Chevelle with a Richmond and 3:73 rear gears the gears were WAY too close and close gears are not needed with BB torque. You really feel this when just loafing along from a stop light and you are rowing through the gears just to get up to 65 mph. I think the Richmond is more suited to a small block, especially a higher revving small block.

I have been told they are not as strong as the other choices out there. The Richmond has a 450 foot lb rating. This is probably a conservative rating allowing the trans to last many many miles. It does lack support of the gear train in the center which is where failures are reported. The main case splits in half so it's very easy to work on. 5th gear ratio is 1 to 1 so the drive shaft is not spinning faster than your engine.

With your hp and torque, I'd look at a Tremec or T56, especially if you want to do hard drag launches. Common performance gearing for the T56 is 3:90, but you may want to gear a bit lower numerically.
Here's a gear chart I did for our Richmond to plot shift points and rpm drops. Follow the chart to your shift rpm, then draw a line down to the next gear to read your rpm's you will be at after the shift.

FYI, a new Richmond is around $1900. The Hurst shifter is another $300, plus shipping and tax, then add a new yoke.


http://www.pozziracing.com/Media/richmond_chart.gif
Here is a tremec for comparison. I did this chart a few years ago, so this isn't the newest Tremec model. Verify the gear ratios of whatever Tremec you are considering.
http://www.pozziracing.com/Media/Tremec_chart.gif

Thanks David for your thoughts. I see you have not voted in my transmission poll. I am surprised no one voted for the TKO 500 but I guess it's because of the torque rating.

Let me ask you this...can a crusin RPM be too low for a 5 or 6 speed? Can anything below or around 2,000 RPM's damage a high performance motor?

Thanks.