pro touring lost its way????

[evilzee28]

Ok, tongue firmly stuck in cheek, here's a thought for you. Following on from the posting where there's talk of a set of billet hood hinges costing $1000.00, do you feel that Pro Touring has lost its way. A while ago there was a post on this forum asking where PT would be in a few years time & the majority showed concern that it didn't follow the Pro street thing, where it was a case of "monkey see, monkey do" looking like a race car, but couldn't be driven for more than a few miles, or the hot rod scene being watered down to the street rod scene, bling & billet everywhere & afraid to drive or use it incase it got dirty or marked. I know PT cars are able to cover large distances & that they've uprated brakes suspension etc, BUT & here's the big but, do you feel that PT is slowly starting to turn into the bolt on, bling brigade. Instead of individuality, it seems that it's turning into the norm to just buy stuff off the shelf, where is the originality of that?? My understanding was that the PT car, was a car that had immense amounts of power, that handled like a supercar, with the right stance wheels & attitude & would feel equally at home on the street or track.Do you think that the "must have bigger, better, louder, shinier" than the next man is taking over the true spirit of the PT movement??? OK, tongue out of cheek, time for me to stand in the corner now huh? Now, where was that dunces hat? :D

[Steve1968LS2]

How many people have a mill in thier garage?

I have no problem in bolt on parts.. the challenge is in combining the RIGHT bolt-on parts so the car has a personality all it's own and doesn't look cobbled together..

And besides, the hinges have zero effect on performance so it does not really equate to the "show-street" cars that can't perform.

You CAN look good and go fast.. it's a fact :)

[RussMS]

I think everyone wants to look good and those hinges are trick. The median Lat-G guy may want em but will have to really want em to shell out that kinda money.

I think if you arent trying to compete with those the eclipse yours means in the areas that matter to you, the car will reflect your personality and have a style that is "you." If you try to compete with everyone, then you will never be satisfied because there is always the next big thing. Anyone want to try and eclipse the power in Charley's new 3000HP car?

If you want to paint you car flat black and cover it in your favorite vendor/sponsors stickers and run the heck out of it every weekend, go for it. If you want to cover you car in bling and put it in a trailer everywhere it goes just to get the oohs and ahhs, that's fine too. Whos to say who will have more fun?

I think Pro-Touring should be what you make of it, but that is just me.

[Payton King]

Natural progression of the hobby/build style. People see land mark cars,the list is long and distinguished, and they want a car like that. In reality you can only do so much to a 69 Camaro so they will all look alike after a while...don't I know it.

I feel another reason these cars are moving more to the street machine catagory than really being used, is value. When all of this started you could pick up a 1st gen Camaro cheap, do your own mods, and have less than $20 grand in the car. Now these cars are bringing stupid money and people are spending obsence amounts of money on them..I resemble that last statement. When you have $50 to $100 in a car and 4 years of your heart in it, what you wanted to do with it when you started and what you are willing to do with it when finished has changed.

As far as the bigger, better, faster stuff...that is what this hobby, and really all competition, is founded so that is not that suprising.

[TravisB]

How many people have a mill in thier garage?



You CAN look good and go fast.. it's a fact :)

I don't want to sound like an ass here steve but we have one...lol
just got it, altough neither of us could make a product quite like that on it!

[TravisB]

I think Pro-Touring should be what you make of it, but that is just me.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[almcbri]

good point Russ. I agree

I like to see a large variety of cars being built with a PT style. Who cares what one guy does vs. the other. There is no set in stone way your car has to be built. Extreme Builds or stock who cares.

[jannes_z-28]

I think we can see parallells with the Hot Rod scene, all though the pace is faster in PT.

What was a modified, "do-it-yourself" thing hsa become an industry. People want Pro Touring styled cars because that is the hot thing for the moment and they are hip. The bar is always raised because he next guy want it done even more. Look no further than here, a lot of guys have started production of cool parts just because there was a need for it.

Then you have to set your own preference, is it show and shine, never drive it unless the sun shine, something Nigel and I have to dismiss otherwise we could never drive our cars. Or drive the tires of it just for the heck of it. I think most of us will be somewhere in between and we can enjoy everybody else no matter what.

For me the driving is the priority, dirt and water can be washed away.


Jan

[Smack_talker]

It seems that 69 Camaros are getting a little over populated in the PT scene. There are so many very nice ones already done. I would like to do a 70 Mustang fastback PT style...maybe with some Boss/Trans Am styling. :thumbsup:

[XcYZ]

It seems that 69 Camaros are getting a little over populated in the PT scene.

I agree with that - to a point. It seems that way online, Lateral-g and PT.com is saturated with them, but when I'm out on the local or regional car scene, there really isn't that much out there for g-machines. Yet. But of course I'm in the midwest where Cragars and air shocks are all the rage. :lolhit:

[evilzee28]

How many people have a mill in thier garage?

I have no problem in bolt on parts.. the challenge is in combining the RIGHT bolt-on parts so the car has a personality all it's own and doesn't look cobbled together..

And besides, the hinges have zero effect on performance so it does not really equate to the "show-street" cars that can't perform.

You CAN look good and go fast.. it's a fact :)


Hi Steve, I'm not disputing that you can't look good & go fast & I admit that not everyone has a mill in their 'shop, BUT,... with what seems to be an awful lot of people in the PT scene, with what appears to be a large amount of disposable income, why not get someone to make the parts to your design as opposed to buying off the shelf,'cos pretty soon it'll just look like all of the other cars that have had the parts bought.Now I wasn't at SEMA, but reading the web boards it seems to me that the three cars that seem to stand out were the Baldwin Camaro, the Ring brothers Mustang & the orange 'cuda. Why did they stand out??....... Because they had a lot of original thought put into them !! A lot of the things done to those cars wouldn't cost a fortune to do, but it would cost a lot of time & effort. Thats the difference isn't it, they're not belly button cars.There are plenty of skilled guys out there that could turn your dreams into reality for a reasonable sum.I agree totally that what makes a car is the combination of the right parts to make it look right, Streetkings Camaro is a case in point, it even has the original style interior ( for the time being at least) But what a stunning looking car & there aint any bling in sight, but a lot of thought about the final look.it's good to see marquez making different dash & interiors, they look stunning, but if I wanted a different interior I'd get it trimmed by a proffesional to my own design ( no disrespect intended Jody), it'd be unique. So I guess you can go fast whilst looking good, but remember it's a car at the end of the day & as such becomes an extension of YOUR personality, so maybe it's time to put your own identity in it . :yes:

[62fairlane]

I think it has been turning into alot of bling also. I remember some "early" Pt cars that were just a stock car with suspension under it (mostly homegrown) and usually had a OEM efi setup on them. I think the aftermarket that was helping it is going to turn it into pro street at the end....WAY high dollar cars that barely are streetable. I think the next growing trend seems to be the traditional hot rods (something else I am getting ready to do as my next project) They are low buck and easy to build at home since no fancy paint is needed or high dollar "bling" parts....granted some would call having to have vintage speed parts "bling"

yeah it seems like the two sites are ran by 69 Camaro's but there are also alot of mustangs with TCP or Global west parts on them also...and falcons...but I do like seeing the oddball cars like AMC's (like the Rambler on here) being built up. in my book I will always give more credit to someone that built their car instead of buying it. This is the reason I am not a big fan of imports. This might also be because I am a cheap ass and would rather build something then buy it.

[XcYZ]

Those 3 cars you listed were huge dollar cars. The numbers I was overhearing at SEMA were $200k for the Mustang, $400k+ for the Motion Camaro, and $750k+ for the Cuda. Billet hinges seem pretty darn cheap when you throw those numbers around. lol

[race-rodz]

Cragars and air shocks are all the rage. :lolhit:


:clap: LMAO :clap:

[MarkM66]

You're not the only one thinking $1000 for a set of hinges is outrageous. If someone spend that much of a set of hinges, the rest of the car better have the absolute best of everything. Anyway else would be foolish, IMO.

No way I'd spend that kind of money on such a item. Stockers don't look that bad.

I've seen the mustang. Did even notice the hinges, :eek: .

[jonny51]

I agree with that - to a point. It seems that way online, Lateral-g and PT.com is saturated with them, but when I'm out on the local or regional car scene, there really isn't that much out there for g-machines. Yet. But of course I'm in the midwest where Cragars and air shocks are all the rage. :lolhit:

Even in the bay area quality PT car's are few and far between.

What wrong with air shocks Scott? :D

Oh and as far as this thread goes... :beathorse

[TravisB]

Oh and as far as this thread goes... :beathorse

Exactly what I was thinking.....

[907rs]

What wrong with air shocks Scott? :D

Yeah, what's wrong with them? Fifteen years ago my Camaro sported a pair. :D

As far as Pro-Touring losing its way; there will always be those that build their cars as trailer queens - and nothing else. Just look at every segment of the hot rod community; they all have that same group of guys.

I personally don't think Pro-Touring as a whole will move that direction.......

[MarkM66]

Exactly what I was thinking.....

I know of another site that this Smilie could be used about 10 times a day, ;) .

[TravisB]

I know of another site that this Smilie could be used about 10 times a day, ;) .


Seems like we have had that converstaion once or twice before in fact....lol


907rs I think you are correct...you will always have your trailer queen crowd, the driver crowd, rat rod crowd, and then of course the guys with two much money that drive the piss out of there trailer queens....this has been going on with street rods for some time so it's only natural for that trend to continue with the growing popularity of G-machines

[evilzee28]

Those 3 cars you listed were huge dollar cars. The numbers I was overhearing at SEMA were $200k for the Mustang, $400k+ for the Motion Camaro, and $750k+ for the Cuda. Billet hinges seem pretty darn cheap when you throw those numbers around. lol

Yeah, ok, they may be extreme high dollar cars, but lets get real here......someone , somewhere is making an AAAAAAwful lotta money from it. Those cars could be built to the same standard for a fraction of the cost if someone had half a mind to do it. if you total up the cost of hardware, you know engine, wheels suspension etc there's still an enormous amount of money left to do the rest at those sort of costs.If you have the skills it's just gonna cost you time after the essential parts have been purchased.It's only when you invoice out at a ridiculous rate that it gets outa hand. the Prodigy is probably a good example here, once frank bought the essentials the rest was down to his time & imagination. I guess that if frank had half a mind to, he could produce something like those high end cars for a fraction of the figures being banded about.

Jonny 51 & Travis, As to the flogging a dead horse icon, whats the problem, does this "discussion" bother you? it's there to make people think about where they're going.

Travis, I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from here, 'cos you're involved in building cars. If you wanted to, I'm sure you could build a car to similar standards, but I bet a pound to a pinch of salt you'd prefer to make your own original stuff than pay extreme prices for it. :)

[XcYZ]

What's wrong with air shocks? When they leak down, you ruin your sidewalls! Ask how I know. :D LOL

[907rs]

if you total up the cost of hardware, you know engine, wheels suspension etc there's still an enormous amount of money left to do the rest at those sort of costs.If you have the skills it's just gonna cost you time after the essential parts have been purchased.It's only when you invoice out at a ridiculous rate that it gets outa hand.

That's just it, I'd say eighty to ninety-five percent of the parts on these cars are one-offs that the average joe couldn't produce in the back yard. And even if a guy could, there would be no way to meet the deadlines that are required to be at SEMA in a years time.


Jonny 51 & Travis, As to the flogging a dead horse icon, whats the problem, does this "discussion" bother you? it's there to make people think about where they're going.

I'm sure it doesn't bother them, it's just that this topic has literally been beaten to death over the last couple of years.

[evilzee28]

That's just it, I'd say eighty to ninety-five percent of the parts on these cars are one-offs that the average joe couldn't produce in the back yard. And even if a guy could, there would be no way to meet the deadlines that are required to be at SEMA in a years time.




I'm sure it doesn't bother them, it's just that this topic has literally been beaten to death over the last couple of years.

Even if you can't build the stuff yourself I'm sure there are people out there that can manufacture one off stuff far cheaper. Here in the UK there are always the little guys knocking out spectacular stuff from their sheds.It's far cheaper & better quality than the big guys,... they do it 'cos they wanna see if they can do it. I'm guessing you've got the same situation in the USA, it's just a case of finding them. Ok,so if you can't get the car finished for SEMA, build the car for SEMA the following year,

Sorry, I'm relatively new here & didn't know that this had been beaten to death before. :thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

Pro touring is just fine and getting better. The name pro touring should have many variations, and does. Build what floats your boat and enjoy it. If you think you should build it then beat it or carry it around in a trailer - go for it.

But don't think for a second you can build those three cars mentioned for a fraction of the cost - that ain't happenin. All high end cars have a huge amount of design, fabrication and labor time.

[zbugger]

I know of another site that this Smilie could be used about 10 times a day, ;) .
Yeah, but horsebeaters.com is going out of business soon due to PETA.

evilzee28, if you to to www.pro-touring.com you'll see this conversation at least once a month. Some people just don't get it. The main difference between pro-touring and pro-street is the fact that there is more utility out of a P-T car. That's why it will survive longer. Everyone knows that there will be trailer queens. My neighbor built his '65 mustang and drove it to work every so often. He just didn't want to take it to the track. I even offered a trailer. Hell, he didn't even care to show it. It was a beautiful car though. He built it for himself, and he didn't really give a damn what anyone else thought about it. I kinda wish more hotrodders were like that instead of keeping up with the Jones's.

[evilzee28]

Pro touring is just fine and getting better. The name pro touring should have many variations, and does. Build what floats your boat and enjoy it. If you think you should build it then beat it or carry it around in a trailer - go for it.

But don't think for a second you can build those three cars mentioned for a fraction of the cost - that ain't happenin. All high end cars have a huge amount of design, fabrication and labor time.

if it ain't happening in the USA, than maybe you'd be better off buying them from the Brits lol. High end labour costs here are about $80.00/hour. I built a hot rod a few years ago that won "Best In Britain" & 32 best of shows from 32 shows. An equivalent price now would be approximately $45000.00. it was a Ford Anglia, converted into a 2 door coupe, similar to a '34 ford. It was ALL steel & everything from the doors back ie, rear 1/4's rear decklid etc was hand fabricated from scratch. All painted black (won 22 best paint awards as well). Other Best In Britain cars cost a similar price now & the quality is equal to anything in the US. (to the point where quite a few cars have been bought & shipped to the USA.

[evilzee28]

Yeah, but horsebeaters.com is going out of business soon due to PETA.

evilzee28, if you to to www.pro-touring.com you'll see this conversation at least once a month. Some people just don't get it. The main difference between pro-touring and pro-street is the fact that there is more utility out of a P-T car. That's why it will survive longer. Everyone knows that there will be trailer queens. My neighbor built his '65 mustang and drove it to work every so often. He just didn't want to take it to the track. I even offered a trailer. Hell, he didn't even care to show it. It was a beautiful car though. He built it for himself, and he didn't really give a damn what anyone else thought about it. I kinda wish more hotrodders were like that instead of keeping up with the Jones's.

I'm a member of PT.com, but can't be arsed to post there & very rarely look in. What's PETA??

[Stuart Adams]

How many hours did you have in the car?

[Steve1968LS2]

If anyone can build me an EXACT replica of the Johnson 'Cuda for $300k then I would like two of them please :)

[zbugger]

$80 an hour is about average around here, and that's for basic work. Then again, that could just be because of where I live.

PETA = People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Many of them are the freakish do anything for the animals type. Not all though. Pamela Anderson is a member.

[907rs]

What's PETA??

PETA is a group of fun loving people in the US. The name stands for People for The Ethical Treatment of Animals, or People for Eating Tasty Animals. Take your pick..

[Ummgawa]

Well, now that its out in the open, I have just gotta say this. I am really gettin' sick and tired of coming to this site and seeing Pro Touring Cars!! I am also sick of all the Pro-touring Cars at PT.com.(sorry Scott) I am also sick of 69 Camaros and bolt on stuff. I am also sick of full custom cars that I will never be able to afford, Like the Motion Camaro, Ring Brothers Mustang and The Johnson Cuda.

Problem is, there are absolutely ZERO Pro-Touring cars where I live. I want to be cuttin edge. SO, as I am trying to fit in, I will drop insane amounts of money on body work, parts, wheels, turbos, rear ends, transmissions, paint jobs, HINGES, and more crap in boxes than 100 Christmas' could ever provide.

I also have a problem being a liar. I love the movement. I love 69 Camaros. Bolt on stuff, Custom Body work, expensive cars that I will never own. Meeting dudes that are cool and struggle like I do with the whole thing. Guys that don't criticise a guys direction or his budget or how much he's got in his car (Or how Little). I have always noted that the best car guys never criticise. If you are pissed that the PT movement is gettin "main stream", well, welcome to the real world. Grunge music went so commercial that Target was sellin' "Kiddie Grunge"clothes for school. You want new parts developed? It takes Cash and Lots of it. Oh my God!! It has gotten popular!! More parts, Less expensive parts!! The Sky is falling!!! I am going to start a Pro-Grocery cart movement. That will show em.

[TravisB]

Jonny 51 & Travis, As to the flogging a dead horse icon, whats the problem, does this "discussion" bother you? it's there to make people think about where they're going.

Travis, I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from here, 'cos you're involved in building cars. If you wanted to, I'm sure you could build a car to similar standards, but I bet a pound to a pinch of salt you'd prefer to make your own original stuff than pay extreme prices for it. :)


I definatly understand where you are coming from anyone that say our nomad at SEMA know how many one off billet parts were on it.....I thik it is good to be different and come up with innovative ideas. How ever there are a lot of people in the car world that would just assume buy the stuff already done..thats just the way it is! and they will it always will be

[XcYZ]

All I have to say is....



















I can build a car just like Jody's for $30k. :D

[Stuart Adams]

Me first.

Lets get real for a moment. The #1 reason people don't or can't build their dream car is COST. Everybody has imagination on a grand scale, right. But putting those images and ideas in the car is expensive. If people could build cars for a fraction of what the cost really is wouldn't everybody have a car on the level of the cuda, Impressions, Chezoom, etc.

Jim you da man.

[907rs]

All I have to say is....



















I can build a car just like Jody's for $30k. :D








Okay..........................

[TravisB]

Okay..........................


I'm with you am I missing something here...........

[XcYZ]

Inside joke, Jody will comment. :yes:

[zbugger]

All I have to say is....



















I can build a car just like Jody's for $30k. :D
Yeah, but isn't that expensive for a plastic 1:18 scale model you got from ERTL?

[TravisB]

If anyone can build me an EXACT replica of the Johnson 'Cuda for $300k then I would like two of them please :)


Ok steve for 300k I can get you a front end(carbon fiber of course) one 528 Indy Hemi(dry sumped), 16in titanium rotors, and one wheel

let me know when your ready.........lol

[XcYZ]

Yeah, but isn't that expensive for a plastic 1:18 scale model you got from ERTL?

LOL, damn, busted.

Travis, that was the point, Jody has been in a few discussions about his Yellow car and how guys could reproduce it for $30k. lol

[TravisB]

LOL, damn, busted.

Travis, that was the point, Jody has been in a few discussions about his Yellow car and how guys could reproduce it for $30k. lol


OK for a minute there I was thinking that you were the secret new owner of the project he just sold...I was thinking 30k dam you stole it.....

[907rs]

Ok steve for 300k I can get you a front end(carbon fiber of course) one 528 Indy Hemi(dry sumped), 16in titanium rotors, and one wheel

let me know when your ready.........lol

Not to get off-topic, but those titanium rotors are spendy..... Scott, Trush and I were checking them out.

http://www.reddevilbrakes.com/page/page/903312.htm

[XcYZ]

Man, I wish! But it's nothing like that, a few years ago on another Forum, there was a guy coming right out and telling Jody that hey, I can can duplicate your yellow car for only $30k.

[evilzee28]

How many hours did you have in the car?


The car had been rodded a few years before it came into me. It was a driver & had been featured in the British custom magazines when it was originally built, but came in partially dismantled. The car was bought for roughly $5000.00 in todays money. I spent a total of 12 long weeks with the help of my apprentice to detail the chassis & running gear, re assemble the car & to carry out the rear end fabrication & get it painted. (sometimes some friends would turn up at the shop & would help out, amazing what the offer of a few beers can do) I charged out at the equivalent (todays prices) of $40.00/hour 'cos I wanted to do it & to gain the media exposure that it would generate. (average accident unsurance rates here are currently $40.00/hour). A skilled panel beater (fender bender?) is paid approx $450.00/week now & that's deemed good pay.The owner did the interior work as he owned his own trim shop. :thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

12 weeks =480 hours x2=960 hours minimum for you and your apprentice@ 40.00 = $38,400. Before paint and upholstery, parts etc.

Not to be a hard ass, not my style, I just get offended when people say they can DUPLICATE something for a fraction of what it really costs. If so great, but I have not seen it yet.

No offense personally, hope everything is well your way.

[TravisB]

I would hate to think of the man hours it would take to duplicate that Cuda and if was someone that was not as good as the guys at Johnsons Rod Shop then it would take twice as long.....I have yet to see the car in person but I have heard nothing but great things about it...and I can see where every dime of that 750k to 1mil was spent and I'm sure Bob Johnson would gladly pay it again....

And it cars like this that keep us going and wanting to create something even more badass...I can only hope this industry keeps going the same way

[Stuart Adams]

I'll bet at least 5000 man hours.

[907rs]

I would hate to think of the man hours it would take to duplicate that Cuda and if was someone that was not as good as the guys at Johnsons Rod Shop then it would take twice as long.....I have yet to see the car in person but I have heard nothing but great things about it...and I can see where every dime of that 750k to 1mil was spent and I'm sure Bob Johnson would gladly pay it again....

And it cars like this that keep us going and wanting to create something even more badass...I can only hope this industry keeps going the same way

That is so true Travis. We spent a good 45 minutes just checking out the visible details. It's an amazing car for sure. I wish I could've crawled underneath to take a peek.

[evilzee28]

12 weeks =480 hours x2=960 hours minimum for you and your apprentice@ 40.00 = $38,400. Before paint and upholstery, parts etc.

Not to be a hard ass, not my style, I just get offended when people say they can DUPLICATE something for a fraction of what it really costs. If so great, but I have not seen it yet.

No offense personally, hope everything is well your way.

Hi stuart,no offence taken, thanks for the reply. I didn't charge out anything like $40.00 for the apprentice,but the point I was attempting to make was that I did it 'cos I "wanted" to do it,just as if it were my own car. It wasn't a profit making excercise & that if you're able to do the work yourself or have access to someone who can do work to the highest standards for you, then it's possible to get quality for a fraction of what some of the "big guys" charge.More indiviuality is needed IMOH. time for me to get my coat.....lol

[XcYZ]

No coat needed, Nigel. :thumbsup:

What I think is interesting is how this thread exploded... obviously there's a lot of passion in this hobby and I think it's great.

[Steve Chryssos]

Whatever. That's the beautiful thing about hot rodding--and art in general. If you don't like current trends, you can make a statement by building your car your way.

[TravisB]

Hi stuart,no offence taken, thanks for the reply. I didn't charge out anything like $40.00 for the apprentice,but the point I was attempting to make was that I did it 'cos I "wanted" to do it,just as if it were my own car. It wasn't a profit making excercise & that if you're able to do the work yourself or have access to someone who can do work to the highest standards for you, then it's possible to get quality for a fraction of what some of the "big guys" charge.More indiviuality is needed IMOH. time for me to get my coat.....lol


No one is aiming at you directly...this just the internet I think it has been a peaceful discussion thus far :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[evilzee28]

No one is aiming at you directly...this just the internet I think it has been a peaceful discussion thus far :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
it's ok I know that, thanks, it's been hard to keep up wit this one on times though lol. :D I think it's good that we can "talk" like this to air our opinions.I guess my biggest problem is that I've always done everything myself on my cars & have always thought "out of the box" to find ways to make form & function work well together, but without having to spend a fortune to get there. I really get a kick out of making stuff rather than buying it.I respect individuality. :yes:

[TravisB]

it's ok I know that, thanks, it's been hard to keep up wit this one on times though lol. :D


ya I know I came back from lunch and it was like I had been gone all day.....lol

[radrambler]

this thread is funny....this is what makes the world go around

radrambler

[Y-TRY]

this thread is funny....this is what makes the world go around

radrambler

True, and for some of us the World apparently goes around on a trailer.

[67Sally]

I knew there was a market for my old cragers...............I guess I should have included the air shocks in the auction and I could have made some real coin.
W.

[zbugger]

this thread is funny....this is what makes the world go around

radrambler
Is that why I'm so dizzy? :willy:

[TravisB]

True, and for some of us the World apparently goes around on a trailer.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Bill Howell]

Something hit me last night as I was pondering this thread. Wait, that may have been Melinda trying to get my attention.
Not trying to start a riot or anything, but this subject comes up so much, I thought I would point out something. Since I fall into the rodder side of things, I now have important proof to back up my way of thinking. We consider PHR our magazine of choice right? It is the one that covers our type cars. Well, get your latest issue out, and read the title of the mazagine. Popular HOTRODDING!!!!!
The point I am trying to make is this, right now our form of expression is what is popular in hot rodding. There is nothing wrong with that. Whether you do it in your garage at home or go extreme, it is still your representation of our hobby. As long as it meets certain critiria(sp?), it is protouring. We can not and will not all like the same thing. However, all the hot rods at SEMA proved to me that we are on the right track. I know my explaination is a play on words, but I just had to point it out. Popular Hot Rodding at this time is Protouring! SO protouring has to include rodding.

[Musclerodz]

Is it me, or does anyone else relate these "where has Pro-Touring gone?" threads to PMS. Every month it seems like this gets brought up somewhere and drives people nuts.

Nigel, I think the issue here is more that you here about all the bling stuff and high dollar builds because it commands attention. Not that it is the direction its going or the majority of what is out there, but that is what drives the masses interest.

Now that the be gentle side has spoke, my evil alter ego says this is another 7+ page thread of who cares! :D I might have come here originally for the cars, but I stay because of the people.

Mike

[evilzee28]

Is it me, or does anyone else relate these "where has Pro-Touring gone?" threads to PMS. Every month it seems like this gets brought up somewhere and drives people nuts.

Nigel, I think the issue here is more that you here about all the bling stuff and high dollar builds because it commands attention. Not that it is the direction its going or the majority of what is out there, but that is what drives the masses interest.

Now that the be gentle side has spoke, my evil alter ego says this is another 7+ page thread of who cares! :D I might have come here originally for the cars, but I stay because of the people.

Mike

I agree, I don't care either. I want a car I can drive & race rather than a gazillion horsepower, blinged up, trailer queen that can't be driven in all weathers or parked in Wal mart for fear of dust settling on it.Park these cars on a show field & all they're good for is holding down the grass lol

i'm just amazed at the amount of people that'll spend a small fortune on stuff, just to keep up with the next guy. :unibrow:

[Stuart Adams]

I think you care!! You are miffed at people who like nice things and spend money that you seem excessive on their car.

Build what ya like, but don't make statements about someone else putting money into a project just to keep up with someone else, maybe they have the same likes.

I don't particularly care for Civics with blowers running 9's, but that is cool for some - more power to them.

Don't get all butt hurt about a guy parked next to ya with Billett hood hinges.

Value is something that doesn't mean how much, if you spend 100K and sell for 100K then you did well and hopefully had fun doing it. If you spend 60K and sell for 40 K then you lost 20 K and SPENT less on the project and most likely did not have the Blings that the other guy had, but you lost out, because maybe your item appealed to less people in the market for that item when you sold it.

Less spent doesn't mean better value. That is why Intellichoice rates most Mercedes Products as the best value even though their purchase price is more than say a Maxima. Better resale value at the end.

[TravisB]

I agree with stuart...don't look down on someone because they have spent more money or because they want to trailer there car! You don't see me saying well if you don't trailer it then it isn't a nice car! I will be honest we trailer everything we build....yes I know hold to comments to a dull roar. The cars are either built to sell or built for a customer that would rather have there car delivered w/o dings or nicks anywhere
I think you care!! You are miffed at people who like nice things and spend money that you seem excessive on their car.

Build what ya like, but don't make statements about someone else putting money into a project just to keep up with someone else, maybe they have the same likes.

I don't particularly care for Civics with blowers running 9's, but that is cool for some - more power to them.

Don't get all butt hurt about a guy parked next to ya with Billett hood hinges.

Value is something that doesn't mean how much, if you spend 100K and sell for 100K then you did well and hopefully had fun doing it. If you spend 60K and sell for 40 K then you lost 20 K and SPENT less on the project and most likely did not have the Blings that the other guy had, but you lost out, because maybe your item appealed to less people in the market for that item when you sold it.

Less spent doesn't mean better value. That is why Intellichoice rates most Mercedes Products as the best value even though their purchase price is more than say a Maxima. Better resale value at the end.

[rockdogz]

I'll jump in with the "who cares" crowd...

I'm not building a Pro Touring car. I'm building a car the way I want it and if it's considered 'Pro Touring' then that's fine, but it's not the objective for me.

Why am I using a big block when that means the car will be nose heavy? Because I want to. Why do I want those trick Marquez billet tail light bezels? Because the Joneses are running them? No. Because they look cool and I like them. Can I make them myself? No. Can I do the paint and bodywork myself and make the car look the way I want it to? No. I could try, and with a lot of practice I could do it much better than I can today but I may never be as good as those that I hired to do it. Can I afford it? Yes. No. Err, topic for another discussion. :) Is it ok that someone else wants to do it themselves, even if it won't look as good - or if it will look better? Sure!

I guess I'm just echoing the sentiments of many others here who say to just build what you want, be happy, let's learn from each other, and don't put others or their ideas down. Discussion is great, it's what this board is all about.

[evilzee28]

I think you care!! You are miffed at people who like nice things and spend money that you seem excessive on their car.

Build what ya like, but don't make statements about someone else putting money into a project just to keep up with someone else, maybe they have the same likes.

I don't particularly care for Civics with blowers running 9's, but that is cool for some - more power to them.

Don't get all butt hurt about a guy parked next to ya with Billett hood hinges.

Value is something that doesn't mean how much, if you spend 100K and sell for 100K then you did well and hopefully had fun doing it. If you spend 60K and sell for 40 K then you lost 20 K and SPENT less on the project and most likely did not have the Blings that the other guy had, but you lost out, because maybe your item appealed to less people in the market for that item when you sold it.

Less spent doesn't mean better value. That is why Intellichoice rates most Mercedes Products as the best value even though their purchase price is more than say a Maxima. Better resale value at the end.

Sorry guys, but I really don't care !! I've the resources & collateral to build the top end cars, money for me isn't an issue. But I'd rather make something or get it made to my own design than buy in.I don't want a belly button car. What started this was the $1000.00 thing for hinges. In my opinion it's a total waste of money, period!! My opinion!! Each to their own, if people wanna bling up their cars fair enough. To me it seems like the hot rod/street rod thing. The cars are built to perform, but quite simply they probably don't. Is anyone gonna race the arse of their car, Uhhhh....No, why?? 'cos it's too precious. Pro touring originated with the Big Red thing, power, performance & handling in a stock looking car. Now to me it seems like all the wanabees are jumping on the band wagon, but have lost the spirit of what it's all about. Too much money, not enough imagination!! throwing money at a car doesn't make a good car, it just makes eye candy. Hell, Charlie even admitted himself that the car everyone creams over, the Mule, doesn't give him as much satisfaction as Red Witch. That cars a driver, the Mule in all honesty probably is a bit of a camel if the truth be known. Have a good day guys, I'm outta here!

[Steve Chryssos]

Have a good day guys, I'm outta here!

Wait! Come back! $1000 hood hinges--while silly--do not hinder performance. Pro-Touring will lose its way if the cars no longer stop, steer and accelerate better than stock.

The rest is subjective.

[Ummgawa]

I disagree with you Zee. Your sentiment seems that if not your way then no way. But we can agree to disagree and MOVE ON!!

[Y-TRY]

While not my cup of tea, I really dig the high-end type of cars. I think, for this type of car, they are exercises in what COULD and CAN be done. They are like factory concept vehicles. While many think "why build the concept if you have no intent of producing it?" the answer is "because I want to see if it can be done".

I like the cars at SEMA for pushing the envelope of what the rest of us think is impossible. They have me thinking beyond what I thought the ceiling was. They are PERFECT for that purpose, although maybe too expensive to drive or unrealistically low. It gets me thinking like, "I wonder if I can machine out some billet cigarette lighters to fit in the stock location?" You know, stuff like that.

[Buick Motorsports]

Wait! Come back! $1000 hood hinges--while silly--do not hinder performance. Pro-Touring will lose its way if the cars no longer stop, steer and accelerate better than stock.

The rest is subjective.

I've been a lurker on here for sometime. This statement right here...is so bang on the money. If the car is capable of these elements then IMHO it maintains the spirit of Pro-touring.

Now whether the owner of such a car chooses to drive it or not..... their money...their choice.


BTW....love the site and general comraderie. I've learned a great deal.

[TravisB]

Pro-Touring will lose its way if the cars no longer stop, steer and accelerate better than stock.

The rest is subjective.


qoute for the week.......well said :thumbsup:

[Ummgawa]

Fewer words. Well said Steevo. :yes:

[XcYZ]

BTW....love the site and general comraderie. I've learned a great deal.

Thanks! :)

As for the direction of the hobby, we all know the discussion will never end. I've always had the opinion that a person should build a car the way he/she wants it. If you want billet hinges, more power to you. If you want to build an old school Cup car, well kick ass. The day we start worrying about fitting into a classification is the day the hobby goes stagnant.

If you want REAL drama and dire discussions on what's right and wrong with a specific build style, stop by any custom chopper forum. OCC be damned. lol

[Huxsol81]

qoute for the week.......well said :thumbsup:

Ill 2nd that :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[DCreations]

If you look at Joe Rogan's cuda in the 05 sema pics u can tell that car get driven (I know it's not a pt car). I don't understand why the guys that love details get knocked. I will admit that I'm all about the shiny parts and badass paint jobs. Not everyone is into low budget street/track cars. I personally don't knock builds. People put a lot of time and money into them. That's why I like to know more about the builder/driver of the car. This way I know what the intentions of the car will be.


I'm jealous of anyone that has a running car. No matter how detailed or low budget it is. The feeling must be great and I hope one day I can have the same :D I don't like to categorize cars in groups. I just seen them as badass cars. The cars that can get you laid are the best though :unibrow:

[Steve Chryssos]

Here's a little something I typed up last week at 3AM in Vegas, but never posted. It was an ad nauseum response to yet another ad nauseum existential pro-touring thread. I believe the target du jour was 20" wheels. Maybe the words will carry some weight now. Here goes:

Message Board Myopia
Like everyone else, I click on threads pertaining to ongoing projects, view the images, make some knee-jerk reactions and post. But today, I realized how the process described above can be utterly myopic. I'm not knocking the process. It is entirely human. It's too easy to zero-in on one spec or parameter and rush to judgement.

But, what if you had a "DRIVE" button on your keyboard? Click on that thread; see a car that interests you; push the "DRIVE" button and...
Poof! You're there--keys in hand! You take the car for a spin and experience the whole car first hand and then pass judgement.

Well, I got to push the "DRIVE" button this morning. After an 8AM thrash to get Bill Howell's GTO ready for the SEMA show, I somehow ended up behind the driver's seat. Bill drove his truck. I got the goat. Cool! There I was cruising around Las Vegas between American Touring Speciaties shop and the convention center--just me and the BillyGoat. You better believe I took the long way between point A and point B.

It hit me: All of the message board quibbling and nitpicking over specific cars and parts is completely futile. While driving the BillyGoat, I understood that Bill Howell accomplished exactly what he was after:
An honest pro-touring car with jaw-dropping street rod influence.

---> From the curb, you see a two tone paint job, hyperdetailed custom stitched interior, and oversized rolling stock. The ride height and stance suggest air bags. You're first impression is "modern street rod" (aka Mod Rod). You guessed wrong. Too bad, so sad.
---> From the driver's seat, you experience a blown/fuel injected 6.0L LS1, Global West suspension with coil-overs, Wilwood brakes and an overdrive transmission. By comparison, a stock 65 GTO may as well be a horse drawn stagecoach. First impression aside, the BillyGoat is a Pro-Touring car. No doubt about it. It delivers a vast improvement over stock in each and every category. It is responsive. What is the exact percentage of improvement? It does not matter.

The decision to go with 20" wheels was calculated: Sacrifice ultimate performance in the name of presence. And the BillyGoat has presence!! That the car will perform better with 18's is irrelevant. How can that be? Because it's a hot rod. And hot rodding is open to interpretation. It is vehicular art. A sliding scale. If maximum performance were the only objective, pro-touring would NOT exist. For the money, we would be buying new Mustangs, used 4th gens or Z06 Corvettes instead. And if track days were the only mandate, we'd all be building spec Miatas. No thanks. Every pro-touring car blends performance and style. The ratios may vary, but they are all hot rods.

Before criticizing cars or parts posted on message boards, ask yourself what the owner/builder had in mind during design and execution. His goals and resources are probably different than yours. Put yourself in their shoes. Just pretend that you pushed the DRIVE button on your keyboard before drawing any conclusions.

[Steve1968LS2]

Sorry guys, but I really don't care !! I've the resources & collateral to build the top end cars, money for me isn't an issue. But I'd rather make something or get it made to my own design than buy in.I don't want a belly button car. What started this was the $1000.00 thing for hinges. In my opinion it's a total waste of money, period!! My opinion!! Each to their own, if people wanna bling up their cars fair enough. To me it seems like the hot rod/street rod thing. The cars are built to perform, but quite simply they probably don't. Is anyone gonna race the arse of their car, Uhhhh....No, why?? 'cos it's too precious. Pro touring originated with the Big Red thing, power, performance & handling in a stock looking car. Now to me it seems like all the wanabees are jumping on the band wagon, but have lost the spirit of what it's all about. Too much money, not enough imagination!! throwing money at a car doesn't make a good car, it just makes eye candy. Hell, Charlie even admitted himself that the car everyone creams over, the Mule, doesn't give him as much satisfaction as Red Witch. That cars a driver, the Mule in all honesty probably is a bit of a camel if the truth be known. Have a good day guys, I'm outta here!

So if the Johnsons Cuda kicked the crap out of your car in say the 0-200-0 competition and then smoked ya at a car show.. then what?

wow.. people are funny "it's either my way or the wrong way!!!" what a boring f'ing world it would be if we all had to fit in some sort of mold that someone (such as yourself) decided was THE way to do it..

No thanks.. oh, and it really does sound like you are bitter twords people with "too much money".. I guess you determine what is "too much".. :rolleyes:

[Bill Howell]

Steve,
I liked your quote so much, I made it my signature. :thumbsup:

[jonny51]

:beathorse :beathorse :beathorse :beathorse

[race-rodz]

:beathorse :beathorse :beathorse :beathorse


+1

however in regards to the billet hinges, as long as they save weight...they ARE functional "upgrade" parts. and they look cool too :D

[rockdogz]

Steve,
I liked your quote so much, I made it my signature.
__________________
"Pro-touring will lose it's way if the cars no longer stop, steer and accelerate better than stock. The rest is subjective."(Steve Chryssos)

Lose the apostrophe in its though.... :D

[camcojb]

Hell, Charlie even admitted himself that the car everyone creams over, the Mule, doesn't give him as much satisfaction as Red Witch. That cars a driver, the Mule in all honesty probably is a bit of a camel if the truth be known. Have a good day guys, I'm outta here!

What is a camel as relates to cars? :D

Jody

[Steve Chryssos]

What is a camel as relates to cars? :D
Jody

Uhh....Bigger gas tank?

[XcYZ]

What is a camel as relates to cars? :D

Jody

At least it doesn't have toes.

[Bill Howell]

At least it doesn't have toes.

That might be a good thing though. :yes:

[Ummgawa]

"Pro Touring will not stay Pro Touring unless Pro Touring is allowed to be Pro Touring, Camel Toe or not." - Heywood Jablomi

[Ummgawa]

:D :P :unibrow:

[lil427z]

:thumbsup: :hail: :willy: :eek:
rick kirkindall

[907rs]

Has Pro-Touring lost its way? I don't know, but I sure as hell did when I saw this at SEMA!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/896083/SEMA05160a.JPG

[race-rodz]

isnt that stiflers mom?

[Huxsol81]

thats what I said :eek:

[jonny51]

I gotta say in person much more impressive then stifflers mom :)

Maybe it was those boats.

[jonny51]

Pro-touring lost it's way HUH?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1102940/DSC03303.JPG

[Huxsol81]

Nice aftermarket parts :unibrow:

[Al Moreno]

This thread is going south quickly :_paranoid

[race-rodz]

that must be a PT bmw...... stupid audio video install and NX decals, big wheels and fender flairs......... but the "accessories"are nice :_paranoid

[Nine Ball]

Just saw this thread.

Does anyone know if I can order those billet hood hinges in 14K gold? I had $10,000 budgeted for hood hinges on this project, so $1K is a steal!

yay!

Tony

[Steve1968LS2]

This thread is going south quickly :_paranoid

Both north AND south look good to me :yes:

[TravisB]

Both north AND south look good to me :yes:


Better than where it;s been lol

[mstennes]

Ok Smack Talker I hope you dont live near Washington State LOL.... Your idea is what I have wanted to do for the past 3 years. I want to build a Pro-Touring 69 Mustang fastback and use Boss styling highlights. I've almost finished my Camaro and I always thought the revitalization of the old Camaro vs Mustang wars of the late 60's would be cool only with a modern twist. I guess I'll have to throw out my posters and miniture collection and go with my second choice. The AMC Gremlin done up like Wayne's in Waynes World.... Just kidding.... I think the movement is going 2 ways the show cars and the all out performance cars meant to be driven. To me the drive cars are not getting all the billet. The interiors have race seats, a few creature comforts are being deleted for the sake of weight and speed. The drive cars are not going so far out also in my thoughts is if you get to exotic what happens if something breaks? On my Camaro I wanted to be able to get something I may break out on the road pretty easy. Granted I may have to wait a day or 2 but that sure beats waiting for a coupla weeks stranded in some small town waiting for a custom this or that. I dont know maybe I way off base here but after going to a few races where these brute canyon carvers were running you could see the drive cars showed a little use/abuse where as the shiney billet cars looked real good but I never saw any real signs of hard use. Just to clean. Dont get me wrong I have my share of billet but before I bought it I made sure I was spending first where I needed to. Ok I I'm done now you can all slam me. I do like the direction its going, to me this is kinda like the trailer queen vs the driver on original cars. I know of a guy who has a real Yenko and he drives it and hard at time as he says that was how it was built to driven. He only trailers it to far shows just so he can save a little on gas.
Mike

[Stuart Adams]

Those chicks have odometers that are mileage exempt......

They will never drown....

[Smack_talker]

Ok Smack Talker I hope you dont live near Washington State LOL.... Your idea is what I have wanted to do for the past 3 years. I want to build a Pro-Touring 69 Mustang fastback and use Boss styling highlights. I've almost finished my Camaro and I always thought the revitalization of the old Camaro vs Mustang wars of the late 60's would be cool only with a modern twist. I guess I'll have to throw out my posters and miniture collection and go with my second choice. The AMC Gremlin done up like Wayne's in Waynes World.... Just kidding.... I think the movement is going 2 ways the show cars and the all out performance cars meant to be driven. To me the drive cars are not getting all the billet. The interiors have race seats, a few creature comforts are being deleted for the sake of weight and speed. The drive cars are not going so far out also in my thoughts is if you get to exotic what happens if something breaks? On my Camaro I wanted to be able to get something I may break out on the road pretty easy. Granted I may have to wait a day or 2 but that sure beats waiting for a coupla weeks stranded in some small town waiting for a custom this or that. I dont know maybe I way off base here but after going to a few races where these brute canyon carvers were running you could see the drive cars showed a little use/abuse where as the shiney billet cars looked real good but I never saw any real signs of hard use. Just to clean. Dont get me wrong I have my share of billet but before I bought it I made sure I was spending first where I needed to. Ok I I'm done now you can all slam me. I do like the direction its going, to me this is kinda like the trailer queen vs the driver on original cars. I know of a guy who has a real Yenko and he drives it and hard at time as he says that was how it was built to driven. He only trailers it to far shows just so he can save a little on gas.
Mike

There is room for two Pro-Tour Mustang fastbacks ...i think. Mine will be a 70 most likely with a modern twist...maybe a twin turbo 302 or blown 03 Cobra 4v motor. IF we were only allowed to build one of a specific model the 69 Camaro guys would be doing their own version of "survivor" :eek: By the way your safe in WA state...i'm in west Florida.

[61Bubbletop]

Hell with the cars...Me likey the chickies....http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/images/smilies/yumyum.gif

[race-rodz]

Hell with the cars...Me likey the chickies....http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/images/smilies/yumyum.gif


+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1

[Musclerodz]

Here's a little something I typed up last week at 3AM in Vegas, but never posted. It was an ad nauseum response to yet another ad nauseum existential pro-touring thread. I believe the target du jour was 20" wheels. Maybe the words will carry some weight now. Here goes:

Message Board Myopia
Like everyone else, I click on threads pertaining to ongoing projects, view the images, make some knee-jerk reactions and post. But today, I realized how the process described above can be utterly myopic. I'm not knocking the process. It is entirely human. It's too easy to zero-in on one spec or parameter and rush to judgement.

But, what if you had a "DRIVE" button on your keyboard? Click on that thread; see a car that interests you; push the "DRIVE" button and...
Poof! You're there--keys in hand! You take the car for a spin and experience the whole car first hand and then pass judgement.

Well, I got to push the "DRIVE" button this morning. After an 8AM thrash to get Bill Howell's GTO ready for the SEMA show, I somehow ended up behind the driver's seat. Bill drove his truck. I got the goat. Cool! There I was cruising around Las Vegas between American Touring Speciaties shop and the convention center--just me and the BillyGoat. You better believe I took the long way between point A and point B.

It hit me: All of the message board quibbling and nitpicking over specific cars and parts is completely futile. While driving the BillyGoat, I understood that Bill Howell accomplished exactly what he was after:
An honest pro-touring car with jaw-dropping street rod influence.

---> From the curb, you see a two tone paint job, hyperdetailed custom stitched interior, and oversized rolling stock. The ride height and stance suggest air bags. You're first impression is "modern street rod" (aka Mod Rod). You guessed wrong. Too bad, so sad.
---> From the driver's seat, you experience a blown/fuel injected 6.0L LS1, Global West suspension with coil-overs, Wilwood brakes and an overdrive transmission. By comparison, a stock 65 GTO may as well be a horse drawn stagecoach. First impression aside, the BillyGoat is a Pro-Touring car. No doubt about it. It delivers a vast improvement over stock in each and every category. It is responsive. What is the exact percentage of improvement? It does not matter.

The decision to go with 20" wheels was calculated: Sacrifice ultimate performance in the name of presence. And the BillyGoat has presence!! That the car will perform better with 18's is irrelevant. How can that be? Because it's a hot rod. And hot rodding is open to interpretation. It is vehicular art. A sliding scale. If maximum performance were the only objective, pro-touring would NOT exist. For the money, we would be buying new Mustangs, used 4th gens or Z06 Corvettes instead. And if track days were the only mandate, we'd all be building spec Miatas. No thanks. Every pro-touring car blends performance and style. The ratios may vary, but they are all hot rods.

Before criticizing cars or parts posted on message boards, ask yourself what the owner/builder had in mind during design and execution. His goals and resources are probably different than yours. Put yourself in their shoes. Just pretend that you pushed the DRIVE button on your keyboard before drawing any conclusions.
Should be a sticky IMO.

Mike

[Musclerodz]

Pro-touring lost it's way HUH?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-11/1102940/DSC03303.JPG
Is that a skirt or the bottom half of her tank top? Looks like the strippers has a day job for a week. lol.

Mike

[Smack_talker]

That looks good enough to :P

[mstennes]

Smack Talker I was hoping you would say you lived in Washington State as I was really getting into the idea of a LS powered C4 Gremlin in blue with flames... LOL I have not decided which to go with 69 or 70 yet but then the BMW above made me loose my train of thought. What were we talking about???

[trapin]

But of course I'm in the midwest where Cragars and air shocks are all the rage.
You know it's sad but I have to admit....I used to have air shocks and Cragers on my car back in High School. I even had (gulp!) shackle extensions to raise the back of my car up some too.

Good Lord......I feel dirty. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_18_5.gif

[67Sally]

You know it's sad but I have to admit....I used to have air shocks and Cragers on my car back in High School. I even had (gulp!) shackle extensions to raise the back of my car up some too. :D

Hey C'MON I was young.........I needed the money. :_paranoid

Good Lord I feel dirty. :( I need a shower or something.

My Stang came with all those attachments when I bought it in '92.........and it was painted purple too :eek: (yes the car came from........you guessed it the midwest)
W.

[67Sally]

Has Pro-Touring lost its way? I don't know, but I sure as hell did when I saw this at SEMA!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/896083/SEMA05160a.JPG

Nice throttle bodies :yes:
W.

[Bill Howell]

Has Pro-Touring lost its way? I don't know, but I sure as hell did when I saw this at SEMA!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/896083/SEMA05160a.JPG

I must really be getting old. I remember that booth, but all I saw when I walked by was all those unused chairs and I remember thinking how nice it would be to sit my fat ass down and take a load off my aching feet. I did not even see that honey. Maybe I need glasses. :_paranoid :cool:

[race-rodz]

i was gonna ask ya... after i heard the "redneck goin to vegas" comment... you werent by chance wearing your new blue stingray boots were ya? :D

[zbugger]

Bill, you didn't miss anything. In that picture, to me, she looks kinda used. While she did look better in person, I saw MUCH better. In fact, I almost walked into a car looking at her. I gotta quit looking at girls when I'm looking for parts and info.

[jonny51]

Bill, you didn't miss anything. In that picture, to me, she looks kinda used. While she did look better in person, I saw MUCH better. In fact, I almost walked into a car looking at her. I gotta quit looking at girls when I'm looking for parts and info.


She looks used,since when did that stop you? :P

[zbugger]

She looks used,since when did that stop you? :P
First thing I look for walking into the room is the light switch....... :yes:

[Roger Poirier]

Pro touring is just fine and getting better. The name pro touring should have many variations, and does. Build what floats your boat and enjoy it. If you think you should build it then beat it or carry it around in a trailer - go for it.

But don't think for a second you can build those three cars mentioned for a fraction of the cost - that ain't happenin. All high end cars have a huge amount of design, fabrication and labor time.

Agreed big time! Thats what makes a horse race. If we were all the same life would be boring. I use bolt on parts because they have already done the R&D for me. Less mistakes that way. I'm just a rookie. I have to go with something proven. My own car will be show and go. My money, my time, my vision, my car!

Is it still pro-touring? I beleive so! Some will say yes, others no. Who cares!

R.P.

[Ummgawa]

I must really be getting old. I remember that booth, but all I saw when I walked by was all those unused chairs and I remember thinking how nice it would be to sit my fat ass down and take a load off my aching feet. I did not even see that honey. Maybe I need glasses. :_paranoid :cool:


Same here Bill, I'll match asses with ya anyday. If I don't eat some twigs and Berries soon, I'll be renting ad space on mine. I already plan to install a recliner in my 69 Vert. Its bad when its really cold outside and you say"I'm freezin my ass off" and your wife sez "no Honey, you are good to about thirty below."

Go figure. :D

[Stuart Adams]

LMAO. You be one funny dude.

[camcojb]

Same here Bill, I'll match asses with ya anyday. If I don't eat some twigs and Berries soon, I'll be renting ad space on mine. I already plan to install a recliner in my 69 Vert. Its bad when its really cold outside and you say"I'm freezin my ass off" and your wife sez "no Honey, you are good to about thirty below."

Go figure. :D

:eek: :clap:

Jody

[XcYZ]

LOL, is it SEMA 06 yet?

[Stuart Adams]

Can't wait.

[907rs]

LOL! Yep, big Jim's da man.

Next year will be better.