Low dollar verses high dollar susp upgrade

[64skylarkls1]

Hey all,

I'm a newbie to this forum and to this 60's and 70's era of car collecting. I've been a street rodder (pre 1949 cars) for many years but also have a 98 WS6 Ragtop TA. I recently purchased a solid 64 Skylark convertible as I've wanted to do a mid 60's mild custom for some time now and this car is the perfect candidate. The power plant will be a LS1 with 6 speed from wrecked 02 camaro.

In recent weeks I've been researching suspension for this early A body and and I'm not yet convinced that the benefit you get from the upgrades is worth the big money spent. It's a no brainer with a '32 Ford that came with a straight axle. Dropping in an independent front suspension made a huge impact on not only the performance but also in safety.

Front end: This A-body came with a nice independent front suspension. I want the car to be about 3 to 4 inches lower all the way around. As long as the stock A arms are in good shape with new bushings, why not just use 2" dropped front spindles, cut a coil out of the original spring, pick up a used heavier '66 stablizer bar and finish it off with a good stiff shock? Can someone convince this engineer that spending more money up front will yield enough benefit to justify it?

Same goes for the rear suspension. I know the rear axle should probably be changed going for a posi unit but again, its all relative. I'm not taking this car to the strip, it will be my daily driver when finished. I'm thinking new bushings in all the pivot arms, a 1" stabalizer bar, shorter coil springs and a stiff shock.

Once again, could anybody convince me that spending thousands of dollars on the aftermarket goodies is going to be worth it? Is there good hard data to back it up? I will be going with disc brakes front and rear as I have the components already and the performance gains are undenyable.

I'm sure interested in what you all have to say.

[gearheads78]

Welcome to the site. I wonder where you heard about this place :D

[64skylarkls1]

Welcome to the site. I wonder where you heard about this place :D


:cheers: Yup!!! It's me!!! Here's to ya!

[rogue]

You can spend all the money you want on your car. In the end, its the driver that makes the car go fast. My own car is setup with modified stock subframe, hotchkiss leafs, iron big block, carb, no power steering. Old school technology compared to some of the cars in the community. It puts down lap times comparable with some of the top dollar cars on this site.

Fancy parts are nice and I'm glad we have access to all the great aftermarket support. In the end, it doesnt matter how many go-fast parts or how much money you throw into a car. Its how its driven. I've been lapped by a miata with 130whp. Anyways. Build your car how you want it. Theres nothing wrong with keeping a car semi-traditional when it comes down to the suspension and build. Can they keep up with a high dollar build? Yes.

The best go-fast part you can buy is track time/seat time. And driving instruction at events.

[Vegas69]

Bring it into the 21st century with some basic suspension parts, alignment, and most importantly a sticky set of tires and you'll be amazed.

[64skylarkls1]

Bring it into the 21st century with some basic suspension parts, alignment, and most importantly a sticky set of tires and you'll be amazed.

Meaning..:question: :question: :question: It already has "basic suspension parts" on it:rolleyes: What would make a BIG improvement for the money over a freshened lowered stock set up like I mentioned:question: :unibrow:

[Vegas69]

Improved camber gain, more positive caster, more negative static camber, lower ride height, more sway bar, larger tire contact patch, lower tread wear tire.... :D I'm no Buick guy so you'll have to source the parts...

[rogue]

Meaning..:question: :question: :question: It already has "basic suspension parts" on it:rolleyes: What would make a BIG improvement for the money over a freshened lowered stock set up like I mentioned:question: :unibrow:

Some adjustable QA1 Coilovers, find out who makes some aftermarket leafs, add some sway bars, some 17" wheels and some quality tires will make a HUGE difference.

No need for aftermarket subframes, control arms, 4 links or 3 links.

Avoid cutting coils. Find out who makes some adjustable coilovers.

[rogue]

I'm no Buick guy so you'll have to source the parts...

I'm not even sure whats out there for Buicks. I'd assume some height adjustable coilovers, some lowering leafs, and some sway bars/tires is all he would need to feel much improvement and on a decent budget as well.

[rogue]

I also just noticed you're interested in building a 60s styled custom. I think you might not find much info here in regards to that. You might want to check out the traditional rod and custom forums like the HAMB.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5

They cater to and specialize in traditional cars, just be sure not to mention the LSX powerplant as they can be sticklers over there about tradition :lol:

[Vegas69]

I'm not even sure whats out there for Buicks. I'd assume some height adjustable coilovers, some lowering leafs, and some sway bars/tires is all he would need to feel much improvement and on a decent budget as well.

That would be a great start.....only thing I would add is a modern alignment.

[GregWeld]

Welcome to the site!! 'Tis the best!!

Okay - my own real time seat time -- no "engineering" included. I had the stock frame under my 56 Nomad - I decided to upgrade to some new tubular A arms... what these arms did - was improved the straight line tracking because I could now dial in some caster... BIG IMPROVEMENT. You go from 0 or 1 degree of caster to 5 -- BIG difference...

Now -- The tubular A arms also allowed me to run coilovers -- I have QA1 - but that's just a brand -- what this allowed me to do is --- SET RIDE HEIGHT --- and Dial in the rebound on the shock to SUIT ME... and the ride I want.

So another BIG improvement... Expensive yes --- Worth it..... Well -- for me it was so worth it -- I bought a whole new frame! LOL But now my handling is 100 X's better and the ride is better - because the frame is 'stiffer' - and because it has coilovers all the way around... and Rack and pinion steering is responsive and tight - as is the suspension...

But I did it "because I could" and "wanted to".... So in the end - it's still as you said - depends on how you're going to use it and what turns your crank.


:cheers: :woot:

[Vegas69]

I'll just apologize in advance.... http://www.detroitspeed.com/productpages/product_page_6472abody.htm Dse stuff is top of the line and will get you right where you want to be...

[GregWeld]

Oh oh.... I smell plastic burning!!

It's like I tell the wife -- "I'm not broke - just bent"...


:rofl: :rofl:

[gearheads78]

Make the call to SC&C like I mentioned in the email and you won't be sorry. Best thing you can do without breaking the bank.

[pro-tour79]

64 Skylark and leaf springs!? but I digress, welcome to the board as an "engineer" I would think that a quick analysis of what is needed to improve upon a system would be the first place to start, understanding how suspension geometry changes as it operates affects the loads placed on the tires, knowing this will tell you what it tacks to achieve you goals how ever loafty those may be, btw goals and $ have a VERY close tie ;)
So a nice set of modern tires will improve the handling feel but will transfer more load to the suspension and chassis now you need a better suspension...it's a never ending quest ultimatly the driver is the limiting factor.

[ParkerRS]

As stated above there are many routes to take. They depend on your end goal as well as budget. Most times if you are dealing with reputable sources such as SC&C, DSE, Morrison, Etc you will get what you pay for. The question then is what you desire.

You say that you want the car to be a daily driver somewhat. If your used to driving a '98 bird you will soon find out the serious shortcomings of a stock rebuilt '64 suspension and brakes when compared. As stated above, you don't have to break the bank. On my gray car I simply used some global west control arms coupled with hothkiss springs to both lower and slightly stiffen along with large sway bars also from hothkiss. The difference was amazing, I also installed a quick ratio steering box from Lee manufacturing and it is a wonderful street car. I upgraded the brakes to 13" front disc and 12" rear disc, brakes are some of the best money you will ever spend on one of these cars considering the wieght compared with the 30's street rods. There are many suppliers for big brake set-ups just choose your budget and goals. There are Kore3, touring classics, baer, wilwood, and others also if you prefer power brakes don't forget hydraboost as it is well worth the cash on a daily driver, you can't beat the difference it will make. I will not build another car without it.

Tires and wheels will make the major difference, but don't jump the gun. Bigger brakes will require bigger wheels. Stickier and wider tires will increase the suspension load exponentially and can overwhelm the stock suspension. After all the stock suspension was designed in '64 to run a 6" wheel width with 78 series bias-ply tires, not 8" wheels with 245 sticky radial rubber. As an engineer you should have a greater understanding of this than I do.

Sorry to be long winded. Some of the new products will greatly improve your car without breaking the bank and are a very worthwhile investment. Take your time, do the research, and you can work it out a few parts at a time to ease the blow. Most all of the manufacturers and suppliers will be happy to discuss their products with you at length and answer your questions. Welcome to the site.

[Roger M]

Jason Rushforth Installed some Hotchkis (http://www.hotchkis.net/search.html?Make=5&Model=1025&SubmitForm=Search) stuff on his Buick. He has put it through the cones and I believe that he is happy with the results. Maybe he will chime in here.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff169/72tunaboat/100_0792.jpg

[Norm Peterson]

Meaning..:question: :question: :question: It already has "basic suspension parts" on it:rolleyes: What would make a BIG improvement for the money over a freshened lowered stock set up like I mentioned:question: :unibrow:
Let's just say that the devil is in the details. The "basic suspension parts" that are on the car now were chosen and geometrically arranged to suit the mass market demands of the early 1960's, with all of the cornering performance limitations that are implied by that statement. What I'm getting at is that it isn't as much about the presence of some basic suspension part as it is about how well it is tuned for what you're going after. Just having a front sta-bar (as opposed to not having one at all) doesn't really mean much, and having a "SLA" (aka A-arm) suspension does not mean that it has to be in the best-handling geometric arrangement possible. Or even in a good one.

I'm a little curious as to what sort of engineering you work with, as suspension (re)design is only an example of an engineering field that's partly mechanical and partly structural.

I recommend that you start with some reading - Fred Puhn's "How To Make Your Car Handle" is a decent place to start, as it provides more than a simplified overview without dragging in an overload of math. Read it for the formulas and the discussion rather than for details of specific manufacturer's cars and parts data.

Don't confuse the appearance of better cornering/handling performance with having the real thing. Some of the consequences from lowering may not be favorable, again depending on the specifics of your suspension. For example, running a ball joint out of angular travel in either bump or rebound (because the lowering has used almost all of it up) is clearly something to avoid. The relation of front vs rear roll center height will likely change, which will have some effect on the way the car "feels", not only in a steady-state corner such as a 270° Interstate on-ramp, but also during the transient period time that it takes to get to that steady cornering state from straight ahead. This might affect what you end up with in terms of springs and sta-bars.

Drop "spindles" might limit your wheel choice, as interference between the outer tierod ends and the wheel/tire happens sooner. This may or may not be an issue in any given case, but you should at least be aware of it. My '79 Malibu wears 15 x 8.5 front wheels that have less than 1/32" clearance to the outer tierods, just to throw out a real-world example. Yes, I knew it was going to be tight . . . did LOTS of measuring.


BTW, don't overlook the circle track supply houses for suspension bits. You can, for example, get springs in a wide range of rates, rather than spending to go the coil-over route.


Norm

[Mkelcy]

Hey all,

I'm a newbie to this forum and to this 60's and 70's era of car collecting. I've been a street rodder (pre 1949 cars) for many years but also have a 98 WS6 Ragtop TA. I recently purchased a solid 64 Skylark convertible as I've wanted to do a mid 60's mild custom for some time now and this car is the perfect candidate. The power plant will be a LS1 with 6 speed from wrecked 02 camaro.

In recent weeks I've been researching suspension for this early A body and and I'm not yet convinced that the benefit you get from the upgrades is worth the big money spent. It's a no brainer with a '32 Ford that came with a straight axle. Dropping in an independent front suspension made a huge impact on not only the performance but also in safety.

Front end: This A-body came with a nice independent front suspension. I want the car to be about 3 to 4 inches lower all the way around. As long as the stock A arms are in good shape with new bushings, why not just use 2" dropped front spindles, cut a coil out of the original spring, pick up a used heavier '66 stablizer bar and finish it off with a good stiff shock? Can someone convince this engineer that spending more money up front will yield enough benefit to justify it?

Same goes for the rear suspension. I know the rear axle should probably be changed going for a posi unit but again, its all relative. I'm not taking this car to the strip, it will be my daily driver when finished. I'm thinking new bushings in all the pivot arms, a 1" stabalizer bar, shorter coil springs and a stiff shock.

Once again, could anybody convince me that spending thousands of dollars on the aftermarket goodies is going to be worth it? Is there good hard data to back it up? I will be going with disc brakes front and rear as I have the components already and the performance gains are undenyable.

I'm sure interested in what you all have to say.

Several observations:

No doubt, the front suspension on the '64 Skylark is significantly improved over the stock suspension on the '32 Ford, it is, after all, 32 years newer, incorporating 32 years of development of suspension and tire technolgy.

This is 2009 and the Skylark's suspension design was laid down (probably) 47 years ago. Similar to the '32 Ford to '64 Skylark gap, there has been substantial development of suspension and tire technolgy in that period. The "expensive" aftermarket products incorporate a lot of that development.

That said, if the improved handling isn't worth it to you it's not worth it. Use your drop spindles, don't do anything to correct the camber curve, cut the coils without changing rates, throw some sway bars in, top it off with KYB shocks and call it good. If you're happy with that no one here can or should talk you out of it.

And I'd certainly take Norm's advice - the man knows what he's talking about.

[64skylarkls1]

I also just noticed you're interested in building a 60s styled custom. I think you might not find much info here in regards to that. You might want to check out the traditional rod and custom forums like the HAMB.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5

They cater to and specialize in traditional cars, just be sure not to mention the LSX powerplant as they can be sticklers over there about tradition :lol:

:_paranoid Hold on! Don't paint me as a grandpa yet (that should not happen for at least another 7 years - I hope) No, not looking for a 60's style custom but a 60's mild custom. I love the pro tour look and the efficiency and power of the LS1 not to mention the fun of the 6 speed. I will be going with 17's to 20' and as wide as I can stuff under it and drop it 3 to 4 inches. I would love for it to handle like my '98 WS6 TA but that would really take some money.

The point of my post is this: if I can only gain a 20% gain in handling after spending $2500 to $3500 I don't think I would do it. This 64 Shylark is the same chassis as the chevelle 64 through 67 so there is much available for it.
I just want to do what makes sense.

Came with coils in the rear, not leafs. Would coil overs be worth it? Would that reduce wheel hop for the occasional lead foot?

Would it be worthwhile to cut out the top of the spring towers in front to mount taller coilovers up there?

I'm just looking for the best bang for my limited buck. There's a lot for show but how much is really for go?

[Mkelcy]

:_paranoid Hold on! Don't paint me as a grandpa yet (that should not happen for at least another 7 years - I hope) No, not looking for a 60's style custom but a 60's mild custom. I love the pro tour look and the efficiency and power of the LS1 not to mention the fun of the 6 speed. I will be going with 17's to 20' and as wide as I can stuff under it and drop it 3 to 4 inches. I would love for it to handle like my '98 WS6 TA but that would really take some money.

The point of my post is this: if I can only gain a 20% gain in handling after spending $2500 to $3500 I don't think I would do it. This 64 Shylark is the same chassis as the chevelle 64 through 67 so there is much available for it.
I just want to do what makes sense.

Came with coils in the rear, not leafs. Would coil overs be worth it? Would that reduce wheel hop for the occasional lead foot?

Would it be worthwhile to cut out the top of the spring towers in front to mount taller coilovers up there?

I'm just looking for the best bang for my limited buck. There's a lot for show but how much is really for go?

I'd talk to Marcus at SC&C. He won't try to sell you on anything, but will give you an idea what works and how much it costs. My guess (not an A body guy) is that you can do a lot for a lot less than $2,500. You can also visit his site by clicking on his sponsoship logo on the left of the screen.

[64skylarkls1]

:bow: :bow: :bow:

Okay guys, I'm impressed with all of your insight and have learned a lot. To answer some questions... I'm a mechanical/manufacturing engineer of 25 years and jack of all trades EXCEPT BODY WORK no patience! I can fab whatever is needed and love turning the hobby wrench. The car is a convertible so it does have some additional stiffness already. Yes, it will be a daily driver and there are no road courses by me nor is that my intent. Yes, my 98 Trans Am handles incredibly but I don't need to get there with this car.

What it comes down to is that I don't know enough about this era of car to know where the money is best spent concerning the suspension but I don't want to tear up tires or be bottoming out all the time either. So many suppliers and products.:willy: I will make the calls to the contacts you recommended.

I would love to hear from a few early A body guys, what you did, cost.... benefit... What would be considered necessary and what would be a waste.

You've given me much to think about and I have much to learn!!

Thanks to all!!!:thumbsup:

[64skylarkls1]

I'll just apologize in advance.... http://www.detroitspeed.com/productpages/product_page_6472abody.htm Dse stuff is top of the line and will get you right where you want to be...


:wow: :faint: Yeah, that is some nice stuff to say the least and I could really see it on the car...........someday. I'll have 10 g wrapped up in it as is. Wife, four kids you know.... got to find some middle ground.

Nice stuff though.

[JRouche]

Hmm, sounds like your budget is the major factor. Priorities are a sound way to build a car. If money was no object then you wouldnt be asking here, you would just go with all the top of the line parts and mods that Im sure you have already researched.

But thats not very realistic, cause we ALL have a budget. So you want the most bang for the buck.

Well, I like to start outward. The wheels. If you get too ahead of yourself, and put in some parts just to find out you are limited on the wheel/tire package it gets old.

So think about the look, yeah, yer not asking about looks. But you should think about the look. For example if you are gonna try and stuff a 8" wheel on the front after you did some mods and it rubs the fenders then you will be back asking how to fit the wheels.

Start with the wheels you want to use, you may already have them. If they are stock then you prolly dont. If they are 6" wheels then you will build up the front and think hey, some wider meats on the road will really help all the mods I did, may be too late. The tires ARE a critical suspension component. Think about those first.

So anyway. Yer prolly not gonna modify the car alot from what I see. So Im thinking the stock control arms are gonna be saved.

If so, if you are looking to keep the stock suspension I would look at an entire rebuild of it. All the wear items. Bushings, steering gear (all the joints, the arms are still good), ball joints. If there is a roll bar new bushings all around. If there isnt a RB then one should be put in.

The steering gear box should be replaced with a modified piece.

After you remove and replace ALL the consumable items from the front end you should do the same with the rear end.

After ALL the original suspension components have been refreshed, including new springs and decent shocks you will see the price tag is still gonna be up there. And I didnt even talk about a brake upgrade. That should be a focus also.

The car will handle so much better than it does now. But it still wont be great, it will be firm and controllable. A nice street car really... And thats what it looks like you want, a nice street car that is fun to drive.

The limiting point is the alignment. You might be held back with the 60s alignment. Meaning you cant take advantage of some decent caster numbers and god forbid stuck with a positive camber number.

And thats one of the reasons folks go with aftermarket arms on a street car, to get a better alignment, more suited to the bigger tires that can handle the loads that the skinnies of the 60s could not.

So Im back to tires. They are the ending result for any suspension work. Keeping the tires on the ground. Even luxo boats like a large cadillaic can feel great at speed on the street, cause they keep the tire on the road.

IMO a street car has the best setup when the driver is comfortable driving it. The steering is solid (doesn't feel like an old truck). The suspension handles the bumps without pushing the car around. And the brakes are dependable and predictable....

Predictable cars are more fun to drive then a car that makes you think OH CRAP, is this stop or turn gonna work.

So anyway. Im going on and on, it friday :) Having a beer and smoking a cheap cigar..

My point, look at what you want from the car, you already have a corner turner (the 98). Ya want decent stopping, solid steering, good tracking, and a lil more performance. IMO I would work with what you have and replace ALL the wear items. Thats bushings, shocks and springs, steering box and movable links. All of them. Anything that moves in relation to another part, consumables. Front and rear. With taht some additional components that might not be there now, like a roll bar (front and rear) and decent brakes (front and rear..

You do all that and you will spend some money..

But if you need the extra alignment flexibility then some control arms are in the pic too. One of the best improvements in steering (if your steering gear is solid) is some additional caster. Even with a sloppy spring setup and no roll bar. Its all about the feel for a street car. If you can steer a pig (heavy car, weak springs) into a turn and it feels solid then thats a good thing, it feels soild. And a high degree of caster will get you some camber gain. Tires on the road in a turn. Hmmm, dont know why I keep talking about the tires.

If the tires are planted, even though the car body feels like its over by 7 degrees then you are driving. Street car guys..

New bushings, springs, shocks, steering gear, ball joints and ya might make a fun car. JR

[jhiphopjunky]

Try www.classicperform.com

I used all of they're products on my A-Body (Tubular upper and lower control arms, Tubular Trailing arms, Front and Rear Disk brakes and booster/master cylinder, 2 in drop spindles and 3 in rear lowering spings) I also bought QA-1 coil over adjustables and Hotchkis sway bars. All at a very affordable price being that the aftermarket for suspension can be very expensive.

My Chevelle handles like my 09 Lexus is350 and stops almost as well.

They're products may not be for you and im sure everyone on this site has an opinion on what the "best" is but if you lookin for quality and affordability this is your place.

Ask Jason at Gearhead Garage. He said my car "drives way better than he expected" LOL:D

Ill take that as a compliment.

Good luck with your project. :thumbsup:

P.S. look for the classic performance parts ebay store for a lil' better price than they're website

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g207/jhiphopjunky/IMG_0425.jpg

[crazycarl]

Welcome to :lateral:

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said already. Most of the major suspension companies, and a few of the smaller ones, make a myriad of parts that will fit your car. I would suggest checking out Jason Rushforth's build thread on HIS 64 Skylark. There are lots of great pictures and he is pretty detailed. http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=21361

Also, you might check out this thread about the same car once it was done. http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=22550

:cheers:
Carl

[64skylarkls1]

You all have helped me learn a lot but it will be hard making the final descision on the suspension thats for sure. I've dumped in a fair amount of dough already and have barely started.

More Newbie questions. What does PT style car stand for? Like I said before, I've been into street rods and customs but didn't know this latest craze of the car hobby had taken off like it has. Guys dump a ton of money in these cars. Where do they normally go to sell them? I guess I'm wondering how much return one gets on their investment down the road. Not that I'm looking to get it all back but when a guys builds a streetrod or custom he had some idea what certian models and features will mean for reasale down the road. Yes! I am in it for the love of the hobby but the money tree in my yard gets picked over more every day by my teenagers.

Next question. I picked up an 02 Z28 LS1 6 speed for the donor. I know the traditional small block very well but I'm so impressed with the LS motor that I couldn't wait to build a car with one. I would love to have personal correspondense with someone who has done a few of these swaps before. It would help a ton. I should start another thread posing such a question or would I be better off on an LS1 forum?

Thanks Gene

[jhiphopjunky]

Although i love this site for all it has to offer, i would check out the "conversions and hybrids" thread at www.ls1tech.com that thread can answer almost any question you have on an LSX swap.

[crazycarl]

More Newbie questions. What does PT style car stand for? Like I said before, I've been into street rods and customs but didn't know this latest craze of the car hobby had taken off like it has. Guys dump a ton of money in these cars. Where do they normally go to sell them? I guess I'm wondering how much return one gets on their investment down the road. Not that I'm looking to get it all back but when a guys builds a street-rod or custom he had some idea what certain models and features will mean for resale down the road.
Thanks Gene

I don't know that there is enough of a history to really give an accurate answer to your question of resale value. It really just depends on the buyer. I can say with a certainty that Pro-Touring is not going to go away. The concept of driving a car instead of staring at it seems like a no-brainer to me but more and more people are catching on. Many cars, like yours, can be extensively upgraded with parts that will allow it to be returned to stock. That keeps the value high.

Now, if you call up one of the superstar builders and hand him a blank check you are going to lose your behind when you go to sell the car but that's a different story.

A lot of the questions you will ask have been answered before. Take some time and look around; I know it's hard to resist reading stuff that isn't relevant so it will probably take a while.