Calling ALL pro's, I JUST CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE!

[camaro1969]

okay, my starter issue has rose again! Every time i turn the ignition, i hear grinding, bad grinding, sometimes it starts, sometimes it doesnt, battery is FULLY charged, oil is topped and has break in mix, trans is topped with atf, it just does not want to start, why am i having this issue!! could it be my timing is not 100% perfect, that is miss fires and requires the engine to keep turning, weird thing is, even if the engine was miss firing, it wouldnt sound the way it does, this is a LOUD grinding. Engine is brand new, starter is brand new and SHIMMED, the pinion gear comes out, sticks to the flywheel when ignition is hit, and goes back in once the flywheel turns. I have spent way to much time reading and asking people what to do, i have no where else to turn to!

Also, anyone in VANCOUVER BC or LOCAL, please, help me, ill pay you in beer!! (or coffee) or if you rather have cash!

[ccracin]

First, if you want a Pro I believe Blake at Killer Customs is in BC. I don't know how close. He is a vendor to the left here. Look under Speed Tech. That is his company as well. How did you pick the correct shims for the starter. A good rule of thumb is to use a medium paper clip as a gauge. Pull the pinion out of the starter so it engages the teeth on the flywheel and lock it down with something. With the Chevy mini starters I just use a wooden wedge. Then straighten the paper clip out and stick it in between the tip of the pinion gear tooth and the root of the flywheel teeth. This should slid in with minimal drag. If it is loose adjust your shims. If it will not go in, adjust your shims. I have helped several friends with this. All had shimmed them based on just getting the pinion to engage. When they were too tight, they made a horrible grinding noise. Anyway I hope you find the issue. Sorry for the long post if you have already done this. Good luck!

[waynieZ]

That is good information, I'll have to remember when I do mine.

[camaro1969]

does the paper clip suppose to slide in when the teeth of the pinion are meshed up with the fly wheel gear or when the teeth tip to tip?:willy:

[waynieZ]

I think he's saying the tip of the starter tooth and the valley of the flywheel teeth.

[Vegas69]

You need feeler gauges and pin type feeler gauges. You need to check the distance from the end of your starter pinion to flywheel and the distance from the tip of your starter tooth to the flywheel indention. If those are both dialed in correctly, your starter will work flawlessly unless you have chewed up your flywheel teeth. I have to run but there are specs for both measurments. If you starter is to close to your flywheel, it nose must be shimmed as shown below. My advice is to find both specs and make sure they are within tolerance. I bet they aren't.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/IMG_0775.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/IMG_0777.jpg

[waynieZ]

Todd I was trying to find the post where you told me how to check. Your too fast for me.

[GregWeld]

does the paper clip suppose to slide in when the teeth of the pinion are meshed up with the fly wheel gear or when the teeth tip to tip?:willy:

You would use the "paper clip version" (about .035 to .040") to check the space (gap) between the ROOT of the flywheel and the tooth of the starter pinion... a view like this.... if this works using the keyboard here.

So that gap is checked between these two points = <.< = The first < being the root in the flywheel - the second is the tooth of the pinion on the starter. The dot is the end of the paperclip. EXCEPT that I can't place the DOT in the crotch of the V's using my keyboard.

Make sense??

[GregWeld]

Todd --

No offense - But I think your demo is incorrect...

What you're trying to set is the gap BETWEEN teeth....

[camaro1969]

okay,

i have a starter that looks like this,

http://www.transmissionadapters.com/Pics/Hitachi%20mini%20hi%20torque.jpg

and one that looks like this,

http://i17.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/33/a1/d814_1_sbl.JPG

i am currently using the second type of starter, and when i engage the starter, the pinion pops out, and the gap between the "< <" (meshing of the pinion and the flywheel) is the diameter of a large paper clip. The pinion pops out, BUT does not retract back UNLESS the flywheel is turned, which, i turned manually when i was trying it out, it went back in.

When i use the 1st starter, pictured in the first link above, the pinion is already out, and touches the flywheel when mounted, i removed all shims to make it fit, but still have problems! so i went back to my old one.

I think im going to call someone to check it out, and just pay to get it done, because at the end, ill go through 5 starters!

[GregWeld]

Camaro --

There are three different flywheel "tooth counts"... and some starters might only mesh with one or the other.

One is 142 teeth, one is 158 teeth - the other is 163

Divide your flywheel/flexplate by quarters and count the teeth and multiply by 4 - to be certain what you have.

RE: The 'grinding' you mention. Is this only when trying to crank the beast over? Does it stop when you disengage the key?

Do you know how to set your static (initial) timing before starting the engine?? If not I can tell you how to get it VERY close for startup...

[Vegas69]

You need to re read my post. There are "TWO" measurments to make a starter work correctly.

1. The distance between the end of the sterter pinion and flywheel teeth. (What is pictured in my thread previous) Must be over .100 but not greater than .150 from memory.

2. The distance between the tip of the starter tooth and the gut of the flywheel. (how many different size paperclips are there?) I have about 6 in my office. Probably not the best way to check it. Go to sears and get you a set of pin gauges. .035-.060 sounds close.

In picture number two in my previous post, you see a shim sitting on top of the starter housing. This is moving the pinion gear farther away from the flywheel teeth. If it is to close, you starter will not engage properly and will stick in the flywheel teeth. By the way, it's either a 153 or 168 tooth flywheel. If the gears mesh, they mesh.

[GregWeld]

Sorry Todd --

You're right on the money. I spoke before I really looked. My apologies!

[MarkM66]

Camaro --

There are three different flywheel "tooth counts"... and some starters might only mesh with one or the other.

One is 142 teeth, one is 158 teeth - the other is 163

Divide your flywheel/flexplate by quarters and count the teeth and multiply by 4 - to be certain what you have.

RE: The 'grinding' you mention. Is this only when trying to crank the beast over? Does it stop when you disengage the key?

Do you know how to set your static (initial) timing before starting the engine?? If not I can tell you how to get it VERY close for startup...

I'm not following your "tooth counts" are we not talking chevy's here?

There's 153 and 168, both of which are irrelevant to starter gears.

[70rs]

Speedtech is very close to you. Take your car there. Good luck.:thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

I'm not following your "tooth counts" are we not talking chevy's here?

There's 153 and 168, both of which are irrelevant to starter gears.

Yeah Mark -- we ARE talking Chevys...

There are also 142 tooth CHEVROLET flywheels and 139 tooth flexplates....

Which is why I said maybe he should count them - because who knows?? Maybe he's got a 142 and the gears don't mesh... since we're not there to see for ourselves - might as well cover all the bases!

Here -- go buy a 139 tooth flexplate...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEZ-FPT300/

There are also MANY 142 tooth flexplates AND flywheels for MANY chevrolet engines small and big block.

Since we have no idea of the SOURCE for his parts - might just double check!

[GregWeld]

As long as you're ordering that 139 Tooth flexplate... might as well get one of these chevy small or big block 142 starter motors to go with it.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TIL-54-20057/


:hail: :hail:

[camaro1969]

okay, i am going to try the new starter, which has the removable mounting block.

I have: Removed the nose piece, installed a a shim in the mounting block, alighted gasket and housing, and put shim in position, installed back the 3 bolts, made sure armature is sitting flush with mounting block.

i will be making sure that my ring gear clearance (pinion not engaged, measuring to .100 inch)

also, making sure the backlash of the pinion and the flywheel mesh is .15 inch


The thing i am worried with this starter is, the pinion gear is already meshing with the flywheel, and the clearance i would need would require a large shim to move the whole starter back, while leaving the mounting block still bolted to the engine, this would ultimately move my pinion back, and i would be able to to have a clearance or .100

AH so hard to explain, which we could have a video chat with like 10 of us and me explaining lol!

I ll take pictures!


also,

vegas69 right on the money, you were right, look below


http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/camaro_1969/DSC00910.jpg

[70rs]

Speedtechs number is (local to you) 604-460-0204. Call them if this does not work out for some reason. It looks like you have all the information there now so I hope it all works out. Let us know!:cheers:

[camaro1969]

also, i have pin gauges, maybe 50 of them, one is a classic snap on one, maybe worth something now LOL..

ill keep you guys updated, i now owe, 2 beers (vegas69, 70rs) and a coffee(greg)


:cheers:

[GregWeld]

Okay -- hope that works for you... if not... I'll come up there myself!! In the interest of good international relations. LOL
:cheers:

[Vegas69]

No problem man, I've been there done that and if you get everything within spec it will work flawless. Remember that you have + and _ of the spec. The best way to check it is go or no go.

For instance on your ring gear clearance, take a .060 feeler gauge and a .140 feeler gauge. The .060 should go and the .140 should not. The same will hold trud on the pinion back lash. You will need to stack your feeler gauges for the ring gear clearance.:thumbsup:

[camaro1969]

:hail:
:thumbsup:



No problem man, I've been there done that and if you get everything within spec it will work flawless. Remember that you have + and _ of the spec. The best way to check it is go or no go.

For instance on your ring gear clearance, take a .060 feeler gauge and a .140 feeler gauge. The .060 should go and the .140 should not. The same will hold trud on the pinion back lash. You will need to stack your feeler gauges for the ring gear clearance.:thumbsup:

[MarkM66]

Yeah Mark -- we ARE talking Chevys...

There are also 142 tooth CHEVROLET flywheels and 139 tooth flexplates....

Which is why I said maybe he should count them - because who knows?? Maybe he's got a 142 and the gears don't mesh... since we're not there to see for ourselves - might as well cover all the bases!

Here -- go buy a 139 tooth flexplate...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEZ-FPT300/

There are also MANY 142 tooth flexplates AND flywheels for MANY chevrolet engines small and big block.

Since we have no idea of the SOURCE for his parts - might just double check!

I still don't understand why you stated this:

"There are three different flywheel "tooth counts"... and some starters might only mesh with one or the other. One is 142 teeth, one is 158 teeth - the other is 163"

So why no mention of the most common 153 and 168?

Then you give a link to a 139 count, which also isn't included your three set of numbers.

When I search flexplate on the summit website, flexplate-Chevrolet, I get that one with 139, 25 at 153, and 42 with 168 .

Not trying to argue, just wondering.

[ccracin]

also, i have pin gauges, maybe 50 of them, one is a classic snap on one, maybe worth something now LOL..

ill keep you guys updated, i now owe, 2 beers (vegas69, 70rs) and a coffee(greg)


:cheers:

Hey I'm the one that came up with checking the engaged clearance of the pinion gear in the first place!! :( Just kidding. I'm glad you are on your way to solving the problem. I only mention the paper clip as most people don't have or know where to get pin gauges. The "medium size" is just a rule of thumb to get you a usable clearance.

I am however concerned with one of your statements. When the starter you showed first is mounted, the pinion should not be extended nor engaged without actuating the starter solenoid. If it is, I believe you have an issue with that starter. The picture you show in this link http://www.transmissionadapters.com/Pics/Hitachi%20mini%20hi%20torque.jpg is showing the pinion in it's retracted position for this type of starter. When you bolt it up, you should not have to shim it much to get the .100 clearance. It should absolutely not be engaging the flywheel. Can you get some photos? Unless I misunderstood, that shouldn't be.

[Vegas69]

Chad.....my mini starter is almost identical to the one you posted a link to. I had almost no clearance between the pinion and flywheel. The shim is about .100 thick.

[camaro1969]

when mounted the unengaged pinion is TOUCHING the flywheel, therefore i have to shim the so that armature sits back and therefore sits my pinion further back, this will make it so that my pinion will only touch the the flywheel when engaged.

I will take pictures tonight and show you what i mean, that is if it touches again, i shimmed the starter with the expose pinion to fit further back, so wish me luck tonight!

:captain:

[GregWeld]

when mounted the unengaged pinion is TOUCHING the flywheel, therefore i have to shim the so that armature sits back and therefore sits my pinion further back, this will make it so that my pinion will only touch the the flywheel when engaged.

I will take pictures tonight and show you what i mean, that is if it touches again, i shimmed the starter with the expose pinion to fit further back, so wish me luck tonight!

:captain:

THAT would explain the grinding you heard perhaps!!

[70rs]

also, i have pin gauges, maybe 50 of them, one is a classic snap on one, maybe worth something now LOL..

ill keep you guys updated, i now owe, 2 beers (vegas69, 70rs) and a coffee(greg)


:cheers:

If you make it down here (I am only 2 hours south of you) I'll take Gregs coffee. :rofl:

Seriously, I didn't do anything at all. I hope it works out. Maybe you will drive it down for one of the shows here? GG Puyallup, Seattle Roadster show? Then I'll get to see it !

[ccracin]

Chad.....my mini starter is almost identical to the one you posted a link to. I had almost no clearance between the pinion and flywheel. The shim is about .100 thick.

Todd,

I never would have guessed that could happen. I have mounted 5-10 of those in the past on small blocks in circle track cars and have never seen that. Learn something new everyday! I had a couple that I would have liked to machine the mounting block to pull it forward, but even then only .02 or so.


THAT would explain the grinding you heard perhaps!!

Greg,

Absolutely

You're on it's tail now!

[Vegas69]

Most minin starters are set up for multiple applications. Most will work with 153/168 flywheels and evidentally two different flywheel depths. My engine has been line bored and has an aftermarket crankshaft and flywheel. That definitely comes into play as well. I have the GMPP mini starter so I know it's built to GM specs.

[ccracin]

Most minin starters are set up for multiple applications. Most will work with 153/168 flywheels and evidentally two different flywheel depths. My engine has been line bored and has an aftermarket crankshaft and flywheel. That definitely comes into play as well. I have the GMPP mini starter so I know it's built to GM specs.

All this proves you have to sweat the details. Hopefully Camaro1969 gets his problem resolved. Good stuff here.

[camaro1969]

THAT would explain the grinding you heard perhaps!!

I never used this starter on the car yet, i only mounted it, and once i noticed it touched, i went back to my older starter. I am yet to mount the mini starter with mounting block that i have shimmed.

70rs, yes i will definintely come down south, i bought the car from monroe, and i hear monroe has awesome car shows!

[70rs]

I never used this starter on the car yet, i only mounted it, and once i noticed it touched, i went back to my older starter. I am yet to mount the mini starter with mounting block that i have shimmed.

70rs, yes i will definintely come down south, i bought the car from monroe, and i hear monroe has awesome car shows!

There are some decent shows and a pretty good swap meet at monroe. I am about 30 min west of there. Next time you come down let me know, I'll drag you all over the place and show you the local "car stuff" and a few shops and dealers down here. I can easily burn a whole day just farting around looking at car related places down here. We have a really good interior shop, a couple of good speed shops/tuners, one dealer that is fun to go look at but I would never buy anything there. I'll send you my cell number in a PM.:thumbsup:

There are also a couple of decent cruise ins on Friday night and Saturday nights but they end around the first of October and start back up in the spring. There are also a bunch of teamchevelle and Nastyz28 members around here and all are good people to hang out with.

[chr2002ca]

I'm a little late to the party here, but I just wanted to add that sometimes a freakin starter will gag on the flywheel no matter how well you shim it. I bought a brand new Powermaster mini starter and attached it to my brand new, unmodified GM crate motor and that frickin thing would occasionally just gag and crunch on the flywheel. I had both sets of clearances perfect and the thing still did it occasionally. At first, I thought it might be an insufficient voltage or ground causing the problem, but it wasn't. I pulled that started and replaced it with a Tilton(no shims needed) and the Tilton has worked perfectly every time. It's very possible the Powermaster unit I got wasn't any good. Maybe it was a factory defect or something. It happens all the time so it wouldn't be surprising. I bought it new from Summit and it comes with 'starter dyno' sheet from Powermaster but that doesn't mean it couldn't have a flywheel engagement problem. Anyway, the moral to my long-winded story is, sometimes it's just the friggin starter and you should try a different one.

[GregWeld]

I still don't understand why you stated this:

"There are three different flywheel "tooth counts"... and some starters might only mesh with one or the other. One is 142 teeth, one is 158 teeth - the other is 163" THIS IS JUST A TYPO I MEANT 153 AND 168 I DIDN'T MENTION THE 139 BECAUSE BOTH THE 139 AND 142 ARE RARE WHACKO COMBO'S - BUT WANTED HIM TO CHECK WHAT HE HAD BEFORE PROCEEDING.

So why no mention of the most common 153 and 168? PER ABOVE

Then you give a link to a 139 count, which also isn't included your three set of numbers. I WASN'T TRYING TO CONFUSE THE ISSUE WITH DATA - I WAS REALLY JUST POINTING OUT THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENT FLYWHEELS AND FLEXPLATES - SO MAKE SURE WHAT YOU'RE WORKING WITH.

When I search flexplate on the summit website, flexplate-Chevrolet, I get that one with 139, 25 at 153, and 42 with 168 . RIGHT - MANY DIFFERENT ONES - THUS IT PAYS TO CHECK WHAT YOU HAVE... RATHER THAN JUST ASSUME YOU HAVE A CERTAIN VERSION.

Not trying to argue, just wondering. NO PROBLEM NO ARGUMENT - IT'S ALL GOOD.

[camaro1969]

as of right now, starter works fine, ill probably message back with another problem! thanks again to the members that helped :cheers:

[GregWeld]

Vic ---

Better come down to the Monroe Swap Meet on Saturday!

If you are -- PM me and I'll give you my cell number...

[Vegas69]

Glad it worked out......always happy to help.

[camaro1969]

#@$% #**& !!!!!!!!!!!

i dont know what to do, issue is back, i thought i was able to do it, but i cant...

i called blake at killer customs, $90.00 an hour, may take a few hours, plus travel time, hate to do it, but i cant afford to pay over 200.00 for something that should be done so easy! I even called a local automotive place, and they told me they dont want to get involved in that, and actually hung up on me! i removed both starters and car is just sitting there,, kills me to see it like this.. dont know what i can do!

I used that one that looks like this, and its hard to measure when the engines in the car, i have less than a foot of space to work under, and pinion is hidden

http://i17.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/33/a1/d814_1_sbl.JPG



The one i have that looks like this (below), the shim that moves the pinion close and further to the flywheels (so that i have a gap of .100 inch, i cant even get the thinest filler gauge in between! and i have already installed the provided shim

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/Product/91066258_L.jpg

[70rs]

Do you have my email address? PM me when you have time please.:thumbsup:

[David Pozzi]

#@$% #**& !!!!!!!!!!!

i dont know what to do, issue is back, i thought i was able to do it, but i cant...

i called blake at killer customs, $90.00 an hour, may take a few hours, plus travel time, hate to do it, but i cant afford to pay over 200.00 for something that should be done so easy! I even called a local automotive place, and they told me they dont want to get involved in that, and actually hung up on me! i removed both starters and car is just sitting there,, kills me to see it like this.. dont know what i can do!

I used that one that looks like this, and its hard to measure when the engines in the car, i have less than a foot of space to work under, and pinion is hidden

http://i17.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/33/a1/d814_1_sbl.JPG



The one i have that looks like this (below), the shim that moves the pinion close and further to the flywheels (so that i have a gap of .100 inch, i cant even get the thinest filler gauge in between! and i have already installed the provided shim

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/Product/91066258_L.jpg

http://i17.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/33/a1/d814_1_sbl.JPG
This small starter uses different mounting bolts! Be very careful in matching starter bolts to the starter!
That small GM "metric" starter is first off, not a good starter, it lacks power, and it uses different diameter bolt shanks than the older large starters. They are still 3/8" coarse thread in the block but lengths and shank diameters are slightly different between that one and the old standard large starters. Use the wrong bolts, and the starter will twist after a few starts and will no longer be 90 degrees to the flywheel and bind. The large and small OEM GM starters require bolts with knurl where the bolt engages the block.

A tilton type mini starter should use knurled shank bolts too.

[GregWeld]

I would have ASSumed that this "newly purchased" starter came with the proper bolts - and some shims even????

[camaro1969]

yes, the small starter came with grade 8 knurled bolts, but the mini torqure starter, that didnt, i didnt install there bolts OR starter. I spent 4 horus under the car working with it, and i think i may got it for a bit.. my alternator no longer gets hot, just warm, but after 3 minutes of running (idling only) the battery juice was just drained, barely wanted to turn over for the second time! so maybe thats my problem now, the alternator not charging my bat, and therefore starter gets out align and causes my grinding...

i only have on wire going from my alternator to my starter solenoid, which is on the same bolt as my red 12 gauge batter cable, which is returned to the battery.

[GregWeld]

Vic --

Your one wire alternator is hooked up fine --- a HEAVY gauge wire from the lug on the alternator = down to the POSTIVE battery cable terminal on your starter..

Now here's the thing that most don't know about ALTERNATORS -- they have to be "rev'd" to a certain RPM BEFORE they'll get "excited" and start charging.

Given that you're most likely just starting the car - and letting it idle - might explain why it's not kicking into charge mode.

Give your battery a good overnight charge -- get your motor started -- then don't forget that all important cam break in -- while you're doing that - you can drop a volt ohm meter on the battery and check that it's being charged.

[ccracin]

You beat me to it Greg1 Very good advice. I'll have to look, but there is an old circle track trick for one wire alternators. You can hook up a switch to manually "excite" the alternator to charge. However, when the switch is off, the alternator does NOT charge. This was so while racing, you could turn it off and not rob power. During caution or pace laps, you could turn it on and add some juice. It was very simple if I recall. Maybe someone can chime in before I dig for it.

Using the correct bolts is also a very good call. I ASSumed just like Greg that the starters came with the correct bolts.

You can buy shim material From McMaster Carr or MSC. It may take time, but if you buy like .010", you can trace your shim that was provided and cut it with an X-acto knife. Be careful, but it can be done. Then just cut as many as you need and stack them up. Worth a shot to try the mini starter.

Good Luck!

[camaro1969]

thanks

im intereted in the trick your talking about, would be nice to have the car start at least 3 times before the battery is completely drained.

Is it normal thought for the the old cars, that if you start it, and the battery isnt charging, until driving, that you can only maybe start it 1 or 2 times before theres not enough juice to start?

I have my rad fan connected directly right now to cool it during the idle, plus doors open, so courtesy lights are on, heater fan is also blowing so the bats taking a beat without it actually charging.

[ccracin]

Depends on how much cranking is needed to get it started. If you are doing the cam break in, the idle should be high enough to charge the battery. Go to Harbor Freight and get your own battery tester. Fine for personal use. When it gets started see if you are charging. I'll try to dig up the switch trick. I can't promise anything. It was quite awhile ago I did it. I later changed to 16 and 18 volt stuff.


thanks

im intereted in the trick your talking about, would be nice to have the car start at least 3 times before the battery is completely drained.

Is it normal thought for the the old cars, that if you start it, and the battery isnt charging, until driving, that you can only maybe start it 1 or 2 times before theres not enough juice to start?

I have my rad fan connected directly right now to cool it during the idle, plus doors open, so courtesy lights are on, heater fan is also blowing so the bats taking a beat without it actually charging.

[GregWeld]

Vic --

One more thought on the grinding noise you're hearing while it's running or starting...

Did you use the proper flywheel and or flexplate bolts?? They are "special" to the application... and have a thin - weird looking head (how's that for a description)...

Use the wrong ones -- and you're going to have all manor of racket!

Also - I've helped guys that have installed the wrong "dust cover" on the bottom of the bellhousing -- It covers the open flywheel/flexplate.... and that can make one hell of a racket if it has some kind of interference.

[camaro1969]

yes, I bought my flex plate and torqure convertor bolts from the autopart store, used the correct thing head short thread bolts.

dust cover is not install yet because ive been fiddling non stop with the starter! Grinding has not occured again, and ive turned it over 3 times now!

what RPM does the alternator start to charge?

[GregWeld]

GOOD MAN!!

Various RPM's for "exciting" the alternator - kind of like a woman... they're all different!

Typically 1300 or so should get 'er done -- and you only need "blip" the rpm's up there to get 'er started (unlike a woman)... So if you can take it to 2000 and hold it a minute -- then you'll be sure it's started charging. It only takes once per "start" to kick it in -- then the internal regulator takes over.

[camaro1969]

i see...

why couldnt you have been my neighbor? lol

[David Pozzi]

If you have a digital volt meter, here's a handy chart for battery state of charge:
STATE OF CHARGE ----VOLTS engine off.
100%---------12.66
75%----------12.45
50%----------12.24
25%----------12.06
0%-----------11.89

Radiator fans draw a lot of amps and can run a battery down in a short time.

[waynieZ]

Alot of good information in this thread. I'm glad you asked this question, I'm learning alot of things I didn't know.

[GregWeld]

i see...

why couldnt you have been my neighbor? lol

VIC --

We are neighbors -- only about 135 miles and a couple of fences between us...

BTW -- this is EXACTLY what these forums are about right?! People helping other people. Sharing their excitement! Sharing a piece of themselves! It just doesn't get any better than that!''

PS BTW -- I like lots of the people on here - can't say that about a couple of my neighbors!!! :rofl: I'm waiting for the guy in back of me to kick/move -- then I'll buy his house and doze it... put up a "clean space" over there... and would have 2 1/2 acres and complete privacy.

[camaro1969]

... and would have 2 1/2 acres and complete privacy.

i would be lucky to get 10000 sq ft if i dozed my back neighbors house down lol!

You know what I am starting to believe, that my battery is not holding enough amps for my car, after 3 starts, the completely charged battery should not struggle, or would it? its a brand new battery and i have had it tested and it holds its capacity and is perfectly fine..

thanks pozzi for that chart, def will print it out when doing my tests... and i was running the fan direct prior to my engine being started.. i just dont want to have a hot date and it having trouble starting! i have a reputation to keep to, all my friends say

"...if you dont get to sleep with white milfs on a regular basis, this car is a complete waste of resources, and i don't think i want to be your friend.."

[ohcbird]

Still sounds like your killing the thing with a bad ground loop or something. If your battery is 100% & it's dying after 3 start attempts, you're still pissing up a rope.

1. Take off both battery leads.

2. Check the resistance from the battery ground wire to the starter body / mounting bolt. It should be less than 2-3 ohms (calibrate your DVM first to see what your baseline # is).

Let me know what you get. I'd recommend getting rid of that 1-wire alt. Unless it's a street rod, the extra few wires you'll gain will be worth the low-RPM charge. Once you do this, you'll never look back. The racecar trick sounds cool, but you wind up with just about the same amount of wiring that you'd have with a normal setup.

[ccracin]

The racecar trick sounds cool, but you wind up with just about the same amount of wiring that you'd have with a normal setup.

You are correct. Obviously this trick was done for a specific reason. I have been sifting through folders and can't find the diagram yet. I'm still trying. However, i'm not sure if this was stated, but once you get the one wire charging, does it not stay charging at any RPM? So a good throttle blip should get you there. I could be completely wrong here.

[camaro1969]

welcome back to my never ending starter problem. Hopefully will get the regulars! :willy:

anyways, video's are easier than words... Why am i getting this noise from the pinion and starter, the pinion is popping out, and hitting the flywheel, but as you can see with the video, sometimes it hits, and sometimes it meshes perfectly to turn the flywheel... as of right now, i have it shimmed at .040" right now, clearly its not enough.. but will shimming it more fix the problem, won't i be going to far away with .060"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12AvWBHLB4w

[GregWeld]

Vic --

It's so hard to diagnose this stuff over the internet...

Is this the same starter you've had all along? To me it "sounds" weak... not sure if that would be because your battery is low or the starter bendix is weak - or the wiring is too light of gauge etc....

Does your battery cable connect to the starter?

Does your alternator connect there too?

What's the voltage of your battery?

The shimming is more about the retraction of the starter motor - and to have enough clearance etc... not the actual engagement. You're having an engagement issue. Of course this could cause an engagement issue if the starter gear was too tight to the flywheel - but you seem to understand that part and I'd assume you have it shimmed just fine.

Did you put a Ford starter on your Chevy??:rofl:

[thedude327]

welcome back to my never ending starter problem. Hopefully will get the regulars! :willy:

anyways, video's are easier than words... Why am i getting this noise from the pinion and starter, the pinion is popping out, and hitting the flywheel, but as you can see with the video, sometimes it hits, and sometimes it meshes perfectly to turn the flywheel... as of right now, i have it shimmed at .040" right now, clearly its not enough.. but will shimming it more fix the problem, won't i be going to far away with .060"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12AvWBHLB4w

Looks like a bad starter. Also check your timing next time the engine is running because it looks like the flywheel is trying to spin backwards indicating base timing is off.

Paul

[camaro1969]

Looks like a bad starter. Also check your timing next time the engine is running because it looks like the flywheel is trying to spin backwards indicating base timing is off.

Paul

timing was dont after the video..

and as you can see the pinion hits the flywheel, it moves the flywheel, like a pushing motion, and u can see the flywheel move a tad..

battery is connected to starter, and then 12gauge to the alternator from there, the battery is fully charged also.

BTW it is a new mini starter, the other one i got rid of after giving me so many problems, ended up being a issue with the pinion being bent, which i assume was after all the times the flywheel would backfire!

[Vegas69]

What's you clearance between the pinion and flywheel. I see you are now running a stock type starter, are you running the brace?

[camaro1969]

i was told that if it isnt a stock starter, i dont need a brace!?

Todd, either i fly you or Greg to vancouver, and i may get to drive this car by at least 2015 :rofl:

[thedude327]

timing was dont after the video..

and as you can see the pinion hits the flywheel, it moves the flywheel, like a pushing motion, and u can see the flywheel move a tad..

battery is connected to starter, and then 12gauge to the alternator from there, the battery is fully charged also.

BTW it is a new mini starter, the other one i got rid of after giving me so many problems, ended up being a issue with the pinion being bent, which i assume was after all the times the flywheel would backfire!

Base timing being too far advanced will cause a kickback problem that will damage the starters pinion gear/bendix assembly. Get a buddy to sit in the drivers seat with the engine idling in gear and the vacuum line to the distributor removed and plugged and check your base timing. It should be no more than 12 degrees advanced especially if you are running a compression ratio over 10:1 on your engine. Oh and one of your other vids showed a backfire through the carb which is caused by the wrong timing setting.
Good Luck!!
Paul

[camaro1969]

Base timing being too far advanced will cause a kickback problem that will damage the starters pinion gear/bendix assembly. Get a buddy to sit in the drivers seat with the engine idling in gear and the vacuum line to the distributor removed and plugged and check your base timing. It should be no more than 12 degrees advanced especially if you are running a compression ratio over 10:1 on your engine. Oh and one of your other vids showed a backfire through the carb which is caused by the wrong timing setting.
Good Luck!!
Paul

idle without vacuum is 18 and 35 at 3000 rpm.. the older videos are from 2009, i fixed those problems.....i hope...

[T_Raven]

If a starter will kick out like that but only spin sometimes, it's bad contacts in the solenoid. The solenoid has two functions, move the bendix gear out, and at the same time, there's a plate that completes the circuit between the two big studs on the solenoid.

[GregWeld]

Base timing being too far advanced will cause a kickback problem that will damage the starters pinion gear/bendix assembly. Get a buddy to sit in the drivers seat with the engine idling in gear and the vacuum line to the distributor removed and plugged and check your base timing. It should be no more than 12 degrees advanced especially if you are running a compression ratio over 10:1 on your engine. Oh and one of your other vids showed a backfire through the carb which is caused by the wrong timing setting.
Good Luck!!
Paul


Really...... So the 30* locked out timing on my race car engine running 13:1 is just all wrong. Geez.... who knew?

Paul - Not sure where you've gotten this information on base timing but it's just flat incorrect.

[camaro1969]

If a starter will kick out like that but only spin sometimes, it's bad contacts in the solenoid. The solenoid has two functions, move the bendix gear out, and at the same time, there's a plate that completes the circuit between the two big studs on the solenoid.

never thought of that, like usually i will turn the key, and it will make that noise of hitting the flywheel, so i get outta the car, take a breaker bar and move the engine by hand, and then crank again, and usually it wont work, so i try again..

I never had THIS issue with my other starters, but I will take a look at my connection, does this mean my solenoid on the starter is no good, or just needs a better connection?

-----------------------------

Greg, now now, Paul meant well! :rofl: i really appreciate all the support, at this point im taking all your guy's suggestions into consideration

[GregWeld]

Vic ---

I know people mean well... and usually bite my tongue - but bad info is not what this forum is all about. And that was just plain BS info wise. Can't have people come on here and put up info that might be taken as "gospel" by some less knowledgeable person. We have to remember that LOTS of people read this stuff -- and many aren't members even... Any given day - there are usually more people reading than there are members.... So you (not you personally) post up crap info and people go way either thinking that Lat G is a bunch of bozos and not worth joining -- or newbies go away with some garbage info stuck in their sweet little heads. :rofl:


Almost ANY of the real gearheads on here - would tell you (confirm) that Pauls timing statement is just BS. I don't know where he got that - I've certainly NEVER heard a rule like that - EVER... and I've been doing this stuff for going on 40 years now... lots of motors - lots of races - lots of car builds... I'm sure he meant well - and probably believes his statement - but he shouldn't because it's not correct. :cheers:

[ccracin]

Vic ---

I know people mean well... and usually bite my tongue - but bad info is not what this forum is all about. And that was just plain BS info wise. Can't have people come on here and put up info that might be taken as "gospel" by some less knowledgeable person. We have to remember that LOTS of people read this stuff -- and many aren't members even... Any given day - there are usually more people reading than there are members.... So you (not you personally) post up crap info and people go way either thinking that Lat G is a bunch of bozos and not worth joining -- or newbies go away with some garbage info stuck in their sweet little heads. :rofl:


Almost ANY of the real gearheads on here - would tell you (confirm) that Pauls timing statement is just BS. I don't know where he got that - I've certainly NEVER heard a rule like that - EVER... and I've been doing this stuff for going on 40 years now... lots of motors - lots of races - lots of car builds... I'm sure he meant well - and probably believes his statement - but he shouldn't because it's not correct. :cheers:


Well said Greg. I agree that piece of info is as far from the truth as it can be! Go to any Dirt Late Model race and you will see 14:1 motors locked out at 30+ degrees. An engine is an assembly of systems that need to work correctly for the whole to work. One problem can be caused directly by another. A thorough walk through of one thing at a time verifying each area is correct no matter how insignificant it may seem is sometimes the only way to solve an issue you have been working on for a long time. When frustration sets in you start going blind. (Figuratively) Step back and start at the beginning. I don't car how many starters you bought, get another one. Start over with the alignment and go from there. Breathe and take it one step at a time, but do it with a different starter. Good luck.

[camaro1969]

yeah, but i need a mentor, too young and lack of experience makes me do stupid things lol! so....

im GOING TO BLAKE!! thanks greg, you wrench head :rofl:

ill call him tomorrow, see what we can do!

[GregWeld]

Good idea if you can.... because it could save you a motor - or some other major costly headache.

Having just run a new motor on the dyno - and spending some time in the 'cell' as they call the dyno room.. with the operators/engine builders... there was a lot of good discussion about how quickly a good motor can go bad with nothing more than running it too fat (too rich). This knocks the rings out apparently REALLY quickly and they never will seal once they're toasted.

I'm not saying you've done this - or anything like it - it was just an interesting item that I learned. While motors and trannys are generally pretty 'tough' - very small things can cook their goose quite quickly. Maladjusted TV cable on a 700r4 can destroy a tranny in a few blocks... etc.

The motor I just rebuilt (professionally) was a $14,000 'mistake' by the previous builder when he used flat tappet valve springs on a hydraulic roller motor... DOH! Little details like that are fatal.

Ain't old cars fun!?!?!? :rofl: :woot:

[1970judge]

This is odd. I had the exact same problem on my camaro. It was always very bothersome. I narrowed it down to two solutions that may or may not have been the fix, I will never know as I recently sold my car and engine and trans.

1) Retard the timing a bit, and see if it starts up.

2) If #1 does not work, I would look at the flex plate being bent.

I retarded the timing a great deal and it actually started a little easier than normal, with minimal(but still there) grinding. I had concerns the cam was installed wrong. After further review my engine builder flipped around and gave me good cause to believe it was not, take it for what it is worth. I trust my engine builder with my life, so I trust him with my engine's as well.

[camaro1969]

i no longer have the grinding, it was my bendix/pinion that was out of align from being backlashed from a too far advanced dist... anyways i got a new starter, and its since then ive been having this "clicking" noise, so today i removed the starter, and gonna get it tested from the place i bought it, and tell them that i never had the problem with my old starter, which these 2 are like identical!

so i will be trying to make some good progress this weekend, and then once starter issue is dealt with, i am going to take it to blakes, to get a check on why my engine has a fuel pressure of 9psi, and drop 250-300 rpm when i put it in gear! I idle at 900-1000, and drop to 550-700 when put into gear, seems like its gonna stall when i hit the gas.. and it has before too..

itll be the day when my car has NO problems (stopping me from driving the bit*h :rofl: )

[thedude327]

Really...... So the 30* locked out timing on my race car engine running 13:1 is just all wrong. Geez.... who knew?

Paul - Not sure where you've gotten this information on base timing but it's just flat incorrect.


Greg,

I'm just getting back to this thread only to find you have thrown me under the bus. Look, 12 degrees base timing is a good setting for a street engine. With his first starter damaged and his vid showing a backfire, it looks like his base timing was too far advanced causing a kickback damaging the starter. Now are you trying to compare a street engine to a race engine that may run down the quarter mile for 10 seconds under full throttle? Here's a real world example........look at the GM performance parts catalog which lists base timing recommendations for all of it's crate engine at 10 degrees. Why do they do this? Because they are want their customers to have a good running engines in their street cars without detonation. Now lets talk about what happens when you advance an engines timing, the spark occurs before the piston reaches TDC on the compression stroke. This works well at higher rpms but can cause problems at lower rpms and if too far advanced, can cause kickback during cranking damaging starters.

Paul

[Vegas69]

It really depends on the engine. A factory type engine with a small camshaft is going to deliver higher cranking compression. A bunch of initial timing is going to shorten the life of the starter. I've always run 18-23 degrees of initial but my cam is more than likely much larger than Vic's.

[ccracin]

Base timing being too far advanced will cause a kickback problem that will damage the starters pinion gear/bendix assembly. Get a buddy to sit in the drivers seat with the engine idling in gear and the vacuum line to the distributor removed and plugged and check your base timing. It should be no more than 12 degrees advanced especially if you are running a compression ratio over 10:1 on your engine. Oh and one of your other vids showed a backfire through the carb which is caused by the wrong timing setting.
Good Luck!!
Paul

Paul,

No disrespect here and I won't put words in Greg's mouth. But, when I agreed with Greg my motivation was from the generality of your comment. In general your comment is not accurate. You made no mention of race versus street in the above post. In actuality it really doesn't matter in the context of this thread. Would you want a 13.5:1 Engine locked out at 30deg. on the street maybe not. However after getting the engine running most likely with less base timing and getting it tuned, you could then lock out the timing and it would start without ill effects using a starter rated for the job. Would you want to do it with an off the shelf replacement stock starter, probably not. The point for me is that a lot of people can read these forums and some may not even be members. Not everyone has a firm grasp on all these concepts and they come here to learn and will a lot of times take what they read here as gospel. So making a comment that come off as absolute fact can be mis-leading if in fact the information is not accurate across the board. I truly suspect that Greg's intent was not to trash you and it absolutely was not my intention. It's just to correct the facts being thrown out. I can tell you first hand that I have been around a bunch of engines that start and run perfectly with the exact combination you say is a problem. Can it be a problem, absolutely. But not always. It's all good. The fact that you are willing to try and help is what's most important. In my opinion and the only reason I take the time to respond to your recent post is because I have stuck my size 14 im my mouth plenty and I'm sure I will do it again. I just use this to try and remember when I am posting advice to sure of what I am saying. And if I am wrong and get corrected, I take it as something new learned.

:lateral: :cheers: :lateral:

Later,

[GregWeld]

Greg,

I'm just getting back to this thread only to find you have thrown me under the bus. Look, 12 degrees base timing is a good setting for a street engine. With his first starter damaged and his vid showing a backfire, it looks like his base timing was too far advanced causing a kickback damaging the starter. Now are you trying to compare a street engine to a race engine that may run down the quarter mile for 10 seconds under full throttle? Here's a real world example........look at the GM performance parts catalog which lists base timing recommendations for all of it's crate engine at 10 degrees. Why do they do this? Because they are want their customers to have a good running engines in their street cars without detonation. Now lets talk about what happens when you advance an engines timing, the spark occurs before the piston reaches TDC on the compression stroke. This works well at higher rpms but can cause problems at lower rpms and if too far advanced, can cause kickback during cranking damaging starters.

Paul


Paul --

Don't take it personally -- but that is just pure nonsense. Just because GM Crate motors use some timing setting doesn't mean that's best in all cases or by default is the "maximum or minimum" timing a guy should use.

Detonation doesn't occur at idle. It occurs under LOAD... and generally from a too far advanced TOTAL timing setting. That is not controlled by the INITIAL timing of an engine - but rather - is controlled by the advance CURVE and the TOTAL timing of the distributor.

A typical MSD distributor has multiple choices of controlling the total timing and the curve. They include in their distributors (when new) stop bushings - and several spring choices - allowing the user to customize his distributor curve etc to match the engine. For an example - if a guy changes out the stop bushing to the 18* version - his distributor would have a total advance capability of 18*. So if you wanted to have 36* total advance - then the initial would automatically begin at 18*.

Timing is totally CUSTOM and depends on a great deal of factors. Head choice - cam choice - compression (really should be called cylinder pressure) - gas quality...

I agree with you that too much timing will cause problems - just as too little will do. But the oldest "rule" in the book when it comes to timing - is to run as much as possible without causing detonation. What that number is - is completely variable. And it sounds to me that you're used to only running stock distributors with stock curves in them. If that's the case - then yes - 12* would be "the max" a guy could live with because when you're advancing the initial - you're also advancing the total... and in a SBC after 36* or 38* you're in trouble..But again - that would depend entirely on what the distributor is set up for. If it has 24* of advance built in - then the max initial timing you'd want to set would be @ 12* and so on. Frankly - the best way to set timing is to set it at total - and let the initial fall where it will... and adjust your idle etc to work there. If the initial is too low or too high - then you have to modify the distributor to get you to what is needed by the application.

My new 408 has a total of 32* - it ran stronger and made more TQ at 32* than it produced at 34* or 36*. The MSD in it has the 18* stop bushing (giving it 14* of initial) - one light blue and one light silver spring for the curve control.

My brother in laws blown 355 with iron heads and blower cam - runs 30* of initial timing and goes all the way to 32* total. It's street driven and fires and runs flawlessly.

Just FYI -- back in the day (I crewed for McCulloch and Whipple) we ran 70* of timing in the nitro hemis of the day. :woot:

My only point is that when someone asks "what's the best timing"? The response would be "that depends"... :cheers:

[GregWeld]

It really depends on the engine. A factory type engine with a small camshaft is going to deliver higher cranking compression. A bunch of initial timing is going to shorten the life of the starter. I've always run 18-23 degrees of initial but my cam is more than likely much larger than Vic's.

Oh nice one Todd.... here we go with the "mine is bigger than yours"....:hail: :hail: :rofl: :rofl: