Would this be one of the better Road Race Specific 6 Speeds?

[tyoneal]

To All:

I am looking at upgrading to a 6 Speed Gearbox because the engine I am putting in the car will far surpass the torque rating of the current transmission.

Since I intend to Track the Car a fair bit, I was looking for a close ratio transmission. Here is what I found:
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http://www.sdparts.com/product/RG7051626AA/Richmond6SpeedTransmissionFBody.aspx

The Richmond Six Speed overdrive transmission was designed with the driving enthusiast in mind. The six speed transmission is made in the U.S.A. by American Craftsmen using the latest CNC machining and in house heat treat. Based on our bullet proof five speed design, the Richmond ROD has another gear-to-grab overdrive!

Note: Includes cross member, speedo cable extension and special shifter for torque arm hook up.
Gear Ratios: 3.27 / 2.13 / 1.57 / 1.23 / 1.00 / 0.76
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I am going to follow up on the internals, however the gear ratios appear to be more suited for RR.

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I also like this one from ATS:

http://store.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=ats&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=884716212&Count2=801856637


Product Description Price
LSX T-56 six speed
LSX style T-56 six speed transmission with Viper internals $3,600.00


Ship To:
USUALLY SHIPS IN: 3-5 Days


View Enlarged ImageTremec T-56 six speed manual transmissions are one of the most popular swaps into muscle cars today. American Touring Specialties now offers a bolt in T56 for your LSX conversion capable of handling the power levels of modified LS7 engines, and the extreme abuse associated with road racing. We begin with a brand new LS1 T-56 from the 98-02 Camaro/Firebird vehicles and completely disassemble and upgrade the internals of the case. This upgrade includes triple cone syncros made of Kevlar, a steel 3/4 shift fork, and a heavy duty Viper output shaft capable of handling up to 750 ft lbs of torque. the entire transmission is reassembled with precise tolerances, and blueprinted to ATS specifications. the units include a factory cast aluminum bellhousing, case to bellhousing bolts, all electrical Sensor, and shifter stub. Optional viper yoke shown in picture available for an additional $190.00 to ease driveshaft fabrication.
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The internal information on the ATS is much more specific, however the Ratios are not published.

Any thoughts, or other suggestions?

In the mean time, I will be calling these companies for more information.

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

[GregWeld]

Ty --

I put in a Richmond 5 speed in a Camaro I owned... it was without a doubt the worst transmission I've ever owned and that would include a top loader Ford in a 56 pickup. That damn thing was just junk! Seriously. It shifted like a truck transmission and there was no way of adjusting it to make it any better... and it used a LONG brand shifter with nice heim joints etc. It's the internals that made it hard to shift.

SO -- There might just be a good reason why EVERYONE on here uses a TREMEC... ya think??

Just my useless .02 worth...

[tyoneal]

Ty --

I put in a Richmond 5 speed in a Camaro I owned... it was without a doubt the worst transmission I've ever owned and that would include a top loader Ford in a 56 pickup. That damn thing was just junk! Seriously. It shifted like a truck transmission and there was no way of adjusting it to make it any better... and it used a LONG brand shifter with nice heim joints etc. It's the internals that made it hard to shift.

SO -- There might just be a good reason why EVERYONE on here uses a TREMEC... ya think??

Just my useless .02 worth...
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Yep! I bet that's the truth.

For a POS however, they sure advertise a lot, and evidently sell quite few as well.

I have ZERO experience with them though.

Thanks for the tip.

Ty

[Ron in SoCal]

Larry over at PT has (had?) a Richmond in Motiv8r. In one of his vids he montioned it was top of the list to change out. Watching him shift the thing made me stay away from it.

Just a guess, but I think they sell alot due to price and some Nascar reference?

[BBC69Camaro]

6l80e with paddle shiftershttp://www.lateral-g.net/forums/images/smilies/tongue1.gif

[Flash68]

Ty -- what is the current trans you are looking at replacing and what is the power rating that you feel you are exceeding? They are often very conservative and many have proven (the TKO 600 for example) to be very okay with hundreds of horsepower more put behind them.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Larry's transmission is junk.

You need a T56 Magnum, best shifting transmission at a resonable budget and will handle 700 LB FT TQ. And i have pushed them WAY beyond that 700 mark

[tyoneal]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I currently have a 3550 (I think) I don't have my notes with me, but I know it is the light Duty 5 speed.

Since I am building a 1969 Camaro and a 1964 Vette, I bought a Keisler Road and Track (T-56) for one, (I really think they are cool) and I will buy either a TKO-600 if I put the R&T into the Camaro as it has 600+ Hp, and the TKO-600 will Fit the Vette Console if I use one). If I put the R&T in the Vette, I am thinking about the T-56 Magnum for the Camaro, and just not use a console in the Vette. More than likely I wouldn't use the console anyway because it is the "Grand Sport Model by Mid-America", that I'm putting together and console look silly in them. The TKO will also fit the Trans Tunnel without any modifications, where the T-56 requires some modification in the Vette.

Thoughts?

Ty

[Flash68]

If you don't already have a TKO 600... don't get one now. Wait a couple months and get the new RS600. That is essentially replacing the TKO 600 for the same approx price.

[tyoneal]

If you don't already have a TKO 600... don't get one now. Wait a couple months and get the new RS600. That is essentially replacing the TKO 600 for the same approx price.
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Flash:

Thanks for the information.

Any Idea what the difference is between the two?

Ty

[Flash68]

No worries. Best info so far is here:

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?74448-Keisler-Tremec-RS600&highlight=rs600

[eldercaddy]

Hi Flash68. I agree with you. RS 600 is more appropriate than TKO 600. I have just realized that after I bought a RS 600. :)

[Flash68]

Hi Flash68. I agree with you. RS 600 is more appropriate than TKO 600. I have just realized that after I bought a RS 600. :)

You already installed your RS 600? Into what?

I was told they are pre-selling them now but not avail for delivery til Feb at the earliest?? :question:

[tyoneal]

Ty -- what is the current trans you are looking at replacing and what is the power rating that you feel you are exceeding? They are often very conservative and many have proven (the TKO 600 for example) to be very okay with hundreds of horsepower more put behind them.

-------------------------------------
Flash:

Sorry to be writing so late.

I am replacing a 3350 Tremec.

Engine will be another LS3 or a LS7.

Will have at least 600+ at the crank. I'm going to put the 3350 in a mild 64 Corvette Convertible.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,

Ty

[tyoneal]

6l80e with paddle shiftershttp://www.lateral-g.net/forums/images/smilies/tongue1.gif
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I had thought about this, however I really would like to practice and become proficient with the classic "Heel-Toe", Blipping of the Throttle, and becoming good at shifting without a clutch.

[tyoneal]

Larry's transmission is junk.

You need a T56 Magnum, best shifting transmission at a resonable budget and will handle 700 LB FT TQ. And i have pushed them WAY beyond that 700 mark

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The T-56 Magnum is one of the boxes I'm looking at. I have a R/T-56 from Keisler that will either go in the Grand Sport, or the Camaro. It would be a logical match to go with the T-56 Magnum as everything other than the dog gears is the same.

Is this logical?

[moparnut]

You already installed your RS 600? Into what?

I was told they are pre-selling them now but not avail for delivery til Feb at the earliest?? :question:

What IS the delivery dates on the RS600??? It keeps changing. Anyone heard news, I'm growing impatient.:(

[parsonsj]

I had thought about this, however I really would like to practice and become proficient with the classic "Heel-Toe", Blipping of the Throttle, and becoming good at shifting without a clutch.I'm with ya right up to the shifting without a clutch. There's never a need for that, and it will wear your transmission out much faster.

Learn to heel-toe (actually more like ball-of-foot / side-of-foot) and smooth upshifting. Your tranny will love you and your lap times will be faster.

jp

[tyoneal]

I'm with ya right up to the shifting without a clutch. There's never a need for that, and it will wear your transmission out much faster.

Learn to heel-toe (actually more like ball-of-foot / side-of-foot) and smooth upshifting. Your tranny will love you and your lap times will be faster.

jp
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John:

The R/T 56 I thought might be a good way to learn without tearing up a tranny while learning.

From what I understand, once you get the rev matching down, shifting up or down without the clutch is not that difficult.

Truckers do it all the time.

Ty

[parsonsj]

From what I understand, once you get the rev matching down, shifting up or down without the clutch is not that difficult.

Truckers do it all the time.Sure. Of course all that is true.

I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm saying it's not useful.

You'll never do clutch-less shifting while driving your car on a track, and doing it on the street will cause increased wear on your transmission.

[68protouring454]

once i roll out of the pit in my race car I do not use the clutch for upshift or downshifting. In certain turns, long double apex increasing radius turns that need a 2nd downshift in them i will heel and toe to not unsettle the car mid turn. Most of our cars are not momentum cars, so the need to carry momentum is not there, its more important to slow down and get on the power early as with the tq we can get the car to rotate and get out quickly.

I tore down the jericho over winter and there was no wear indicated that needed servicing, while shifting like this will require upkeep, its what the transmissions were designed for.

[parsonsj]

Jake,

This is a dog-ring transmission? (not synchronized?) Is that what we're talking about here?

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/road_racing_transmission_tech/index.html

Maybe clutch-less shifting has some utility in a dog-ring transmission. I thought we were talking about street transmissions like a T56 or TKO or an RS600.

But the idea that our cars aren't "momentum" cars is false. Our cars driven with the skill that "momentum" car drivers typically have (which means the use of heel-toe downshifting) will be faster. If you're unsettling the car as part of getting to an apex in a turn, you're leaving tenths of seconds out there on the track.

[68protouring454]

your calling a 3000 plus lb, 600 hp pro touring car a momentum car? Miatas and bmw spec e30 are momentum cars. Watch a rolex gt race or trans am race, they use engine braking, during downshifting all the time, on certain corners they will heel and toe because they can enter the turn at a certain speed but as they go thru it they need a gear change, so AS TO NOT UNSETTLE THE CAR, you would blip throttle and change gears.
Our cars are so fast you need to find the quickest way to slow down before turn in, as to allow susp to come out of bump, and in big hp 3000lb cars this is braking hard and engine braking, it doesnt mean your going slower entering the turn, it means your carrying so much more speed up into the turn you need to do this. But hey what do i know.

[parsonsj]

your calling a 3000 plus lb, 600 hp pro touring car a momentum car? Nope. I'm saying that smooth driving is faster driving, which is what I think you mean by a "momentum" car. Drive your Camaro smoothly, carry as much speed as possible through the turns and you'll go faster. Remember that we're not talking about passing during a turn, like in a T-A race where one gains position by out-braking into a turn, we're talking about HPDEs where the cars are separated and measured by lap times.

I see you didn't answer me: does your transmission use dog-rings? :)

jp

[68protouring454]

i would not shift a synchronized tranny without the clutch ever, total destruction if on the track
of course it is a dog ring transmission. i have a jericho and a t101 close ratio road race trannys.
hpde or not i drive the car as it should be driven.
my 69 with only 420 hp, i drove like a momentum car as i had to, to be fast.
my aix race car is over 600 at the wheels, and is driven like a gt race car as it has to be.
i never mentioned not being smooth.

i think ty is talking about 2 kinds of trannys in this thread.

a dog box will jump into gear when downshifting if you not on the throttle without the clutch, upshifting is similar, no harsh noise, just super fast shifts

[parsonsj]

i would not shift a synchronized tranny without the clutch ever, total destruction if on the trackExactly. That was my original point to Ty, and shifting without a clutch on the street isn't at all useful either.

As far as driving styles go, I'll bet there are many that work well. I learned from the guys at Spring Mountain, and we get pulled aside if we drove "GT race" style. They are relentless about smooth upshifts and downshifts, and engine braking isn't taught at all.

Anyway, the best part of all of this is time spent on the track. :cheers:

jp

[68protouring454]

there are many ways to drive. Using downshifting, correctly you will brake hard, slow speed downshift,slow speed more then downshift again if needed.
not down shift like coming to a stop sign on the street or something when your downshifting and not using the brake, I am talking balls out, you wont make turn in if you dont do it.
I admire pro drivers that drive like that for 2-3 hrs.its a hard thing to do to keep a car that on edge for every single turn,braking point etc. I am not talking tire squeel on the edge, i am talking oh crap i am not going to make it every turn in.
hpde schools teach safe on track driving. Not the fastest way around the track.

[funcars]

Somehow the question about 6 spds changed to dog ring 4 spds and how some choose to use them. I was hoping (like the OP) to get some more info on high rpm shifting capability, accuracy of gear changes and durability for a 6 spd road race application that uses syncros and is more street capable.

I also prefer to change brake rotors and pads instead of trannies and clutches.

I also have a ZF6 in my c4 corvette track only car and it shifts very nicely but I only use it up to about 6500 rpms. They are just too big to fit in a 70 Mustang trans tunnel, need too much work to adapt and cost a fortune to rebuild.

Anyway - for high rpm use with syncros what works well? I have a POS Richmond 5-spd that needs to go in the trash and want something that works well with a 600 hp 7800 rpm dry sump motor on the road courses. No drag racing is in it's future.

[Flash68]

Somehow the question about 6 spds changed to dog ring 4 spds and how some choose to use them. I was hoping (like the OP) to get some more info on high rpm shifting capability, accuracy of gear changes and durability for a 6 spd road race application that uses syncros and is more street capable.

You seem perturbed, but I've actually really enjoyed the slight detour this thread has taken and the dialogue between Jake and John. Some threads evolve like that.

[funcars]

I thought it worth a try to get a bit more relevant tech info before it ends elsewhere. Might have been useful. No worries though -at least it's a spiritied discussion...

[68protouring454]

ty is going to have both transmissions in his cars. He has talked about both synchronized transmissions and face plated dog ring transmissions in his posts

t-56's hold up plenty well with good syncros and steel shift forks and a few other goodies, we have had one in a time trial car for 3-4 years and its just getting tired, and its behind a 686hp, 580 tq 427ls
we run that to 7200-7400, gear changes are precise.
are you not sure what you will be doing, you mention road race and street use in the same sentence?
Liberty can face plate/dog ring 1-4 and leave 5 and 6th synchronized, which just may be the ticket for your hi revving engine.

[Croaker]

For the record, the Keisler R&T T-56 ty was referring to is designed to be shifted clutchless. It goes without saying you wouldn't want to attempt that with a transmission with traditional synchros.

http://www.keislerauto.com/recent-news/the-all-new-road-a-track-6-speed.html

[68protouring454]

For the record, the Keisler R&T T-56 ty was referring to is designed to be shifted clutchless. It goes without saying you wouldn't want to attempt that with a transmission with traditional synchros.

http://www.keislerauto.com/recent-news/the-all-new-road-a-track-6-speed.html
exactly:thumbsup:

[tyoneal]

Somehow the question about 6 spds changed to dog ring 4 spds and how some choose to use them. I was hoping (like the OP) to get some more info on high rpm shifting capability, accuracy of gear changes and durability for a 6 spd road race application that uses syncros and is more street capable.

I also prefer to change brake rotors and pads instead of trannies and clutches.

I also have a ZF6 in my c4 corvette track only car and it shifts very nicely but I only use it up to about 6500 rpms. They are just too big to fit in a 70 Mustang trans tunnel, need too much work to adapt and cost a fortune to rebuild.

Anyway - for high rpm use with syncros what works well? I have a POS Richmond 5-spd that needs to go in the trash and want something that works well with a 600 hp 7800 rpm dry sump motor on the road courses. No drag racing is in it's future.
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funcars:

Sorry it took a while to get back to you on this. Here (I hope) are the things that will help answer your questions.

Here is the information on the Transmission:

http://www.keislerauto.com/recent-news/the-all-new-road-a-track-6-speed.html

Take a look at the 6 pages here that speak about the transmission. I think it will answer a lot of your questions. This transmission can be used on the street with a clutch or without. The only time a clutch HAS to be used is for launching the car, or stopping.

Take a look at this and let me know what you think based on your background. By the way, I appreciate your comments and input.

Thanks,

Ty O'Neal

[funcars]

Ty,
Thanks for the info. Maybe a face-plated trans is something to consider - as long as there isn't too much routine maintenance.

[tyoneal]

Ty,
Thanks for the info. Maybe a face-plated trans is something to consider - as long as there isn't too much routine maintenance.
======================
Funcars:

At least according to Shafi, these transmissions are supposedly pretty tough.

I had originally bought it for the Camaro, but I'm going to stick it in the Grand Sport for now (Since it will be done first) and get the hang of it. I should be at a point with the Camaro sometime next year, (Hopefully) where I can pull it from the Corvette and replace it with a T-56 Magnum. Then run the hell out of it in the Camaro.

I'm going to start a thread and see if any other people on this forum have been using it.

Take care,

Ty