PLEASE help me find the right suspension for my Nova

[trueimport]

So I bought a 69 Nova a month ago with plans to start a transformation to a Pro-touring car without breaking the bank (if that’s even possible). I was VERY unfamiliar with the suspension set up on this car due to all my previous projects I worked on were standard coil over set ups with independent rear suspension so it made modifying the suspension very easy.

I've spent the last 3 weeks reading up on all different set ups for the Nova and I think I'm not more confused then ever. I've gone back and forth with saving for a 4 link then I saw some really good info on composite mono leafs and at the same time also seen people say phenomenal things about a good set of multi leafs and that’s just the dilemma in the rear, don’t even get me started on the front. Obviously for each good thing you read about a set up you can easily find the bad so here’s my goal for the car....
I want it to be a great street car with the occasional use on some road courses and drag strip (the racing is not nearly as important as the daily road capabilities). I'm looking for the lowest drop yet still maintain drivability. I also want to stick as much meat on all 4 corners as possible.

Any help here guys would be REALLY appreciated.



On a side note I wanted to ask what might be a stupid question but when it comes to tire sizes how come nobody ever pushes the outside edge of the tire to the outer most part of the wheel well? I know there is a good size lip there but that’s over came with a good lip roll. I see a lot of the import guys pushing tire sizes to the extreme and they seem to push beyond the fender lip while still tucking tire.

[novanutcase]

If you're going to be mostly streeting it then, IMO, I would go with a kit from a company like Hotchkis. If you were doing some serious tracking of the car then I would suggest someone like AME, TCI, Speed-Tech, etc.

As far as the lip rolling issue, I think a lot of it is the clearance issues that it presents. I'm sure a lot of guys are pushing tire width as far as possible but there is a limit to what you can do especially if you're slamming the car.

John

[dwfastcam]

Hey how's it going. Glad to see another nova project. From what I see, it's sounds like you and I are in the same boat with decisions. Sounds like your doing well with the research. I suggest to take everything in, and decide what is in the best interest of your needs and budget. Don't be afraid to be a bit conservative with suspension if it will help finish the car. It may not be as good as what's available but within reason, for our needs, it's not to far off. Here is what I decided on:
mopar performance leaf spring reloacion kit, moves them inboard 3".
I'll build my own panhard bar to help lateral sway. Coys c-5 20x10 with 5" backspacec, nitto nt-555 305/35/20. Global west del-a-loom bushings and make my own tubs and narrow the stock 8.5 and run he stock drum brakes. I'll move the shocks inboard as well. I'll build my own sub frame connectors, and brace the stock a-arms up front, larger front sway bar. Stock brakes. Probably qa-1s. This will all allow me to finish the car and not have to save up crazy amounts of money to buy top notch stuff. I admit, I would love to go with dse front and rear suspension, fiske wheels, but I just started a family and it's just not in my budget right now. Someday it will be, but hat will be a different car.
Good luck!

[scherp69]

Welcome to the site. Always nice to see another Nova build. I think alot of it will depend on what you're budget is. For some "breaking the bank" has a different meaning than others. The first person you will want to talk to when you start buying parts is Frank at www.gpsuperstore.com He goes by Prodigy Customs on here. He is a dealer for all the big name suppliers. Not saying he's the only one to buy from on here, but he is a wealth of knowledge and tests all the stuff he sells.

Like John said about, if it is going to be mostly street driven, a Hotchkis TVS kit would be a great improvement. Or if you want more serious you could go to a Alston g-bar set up, a DSE quadra link or go all the way and get a Art Morrison rear set up. There are also a couple truck arm rear suspensions now...Speed Tech and Jake's both have some that look pretty cool. I'm building a 68 right now and I have the prodigy bar triangulated 4-link (it's basically the original g-bar with mods done by Frank to make the arms adjustable). Up front I have a Speed Tech subframe with their high clearance arms. I just ordered new 18" wheels and will be running 18x10 with 305's in the back and 18x8 with 245's in the front. I decided to get the new subframe, but you can do a lot with the stock subframe and have a good handling car. Like I said above, the first thing is to decided what your budget is and go from there. Check out my build thread if you want some ideas.

[FreddieCougar]

I have to disagree with the assertion that our suspension system is better suited to track than street. I have driven the "shop" 69 Camaro on the street with and without passengers, and the ride quality is very nice. Controlled, predictable, and not at all harsh. This system works well at the track as well, as you can see on our website, we have videos of the car going around a road course. The stance is great, the performance is great, and the dollars are less than most of the competitors. Our rear torque arm requires a minimum of welding, other than that, it is all bolt in, front and rear.
Take a look at the site, or send me a PM if you have questions!
Tim

[trueimport]

WOW thanks guys for the quick response.

I would like to do a 4 link but it seems like it may be a little out of the budget if I want to do other things to the car as well then I just can’t go that rout. I was thinking about getting a set of Hyperco Composite rear leaf springs but I can’t find much about guys using them. What I have found was on this forum and its good things for the most part and its guys saying that a good leaf set up is really a good set up, is that true? What are the benefits of moving the rear leaf suspension inward? Is it solely done to allow for more tire?

I see a lot of guys running a 1.5” or 2” drop but I saw that DSE has rear leafs that drop 3" why doesn’t anyone use them? If I went with those how would I drop the front 3”? Do I have to go with a drop spindle or can I just get lowering springs or do you have to do both?

MAN I have a lot of questions, I'm just so confused at this point. Is it possible to get a decent suspension set up front AND rear for about 1000?

[scherp69]

For $1325 the Hotchkis TVS system would be a good start. It lowers about 2" front and 1.5" back. Talk to Frank, he can get you the TVS kit. http://www.hotchkis.net/6874_nova_tvs_system_small_block.html

[67ragtp]

WOW thanks guys for the quick response.

I would like to do a 4 link but it seems like it may be a little out of the budget if I want to do other things to the car as well then I just can’t go that rout. I was thinking about getting a set of Hyperco Composite rear leaf springs but I can’t find much about guys using them. What I have found was on this forum and its good things for the most part and its guys saying that a good leaf set up is really a good set up, is that true? What are the benefits of moving the rear leaf suspension inward? Is it solely done to allow for more tire?

I see a lot of guys running a 1.5” or 2” drop but I saw that DSE has rear leafs that drop 3" why doesn’t anyone use them? If I went with those how would I drop the front 3”? Do I have to go with a drop spindle or can I just get lowering springs or do you have to do both?

MAN I have a lot of questions, I'm just so confused at this point. Is it possible to get a decent suspension set up front AND rear for about 1000?

No you don't have to use a drop spindle, my 67 has 3" drop leafs from DSE and the DSE coil over relocation mod with stock spindles all done on the stock front subframe. You simply dial up and down the coil over shocks to adjust your ride height. Well its not as simple as I state, since the dse set up doesn't allow you to fit a spanner tool in the frame pocket to adjust up and down, so it has to be removed. I think you get my point, adjustable ride height. The rear leafs are 3 inch drop if you look closely the rear would look better if it could be dropped another inch, Im told the springs should settle although its been a while and it aint moving down. Overall it handles awesome, I dont think I would want to drive around in the car much lower especially with the condition of the roads where I live. Some say leafs drive harsh or a bit stiff, Ive never driven in a car with a coil over rear suspension so I dont no. I think with any well handling suspension set up the car has to get stiffer. Im no expert, but I can tell you if you have a budget some of these suspension set ups can get pricey.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u188/ragtp/DSC_0115.jpg

Rich

[trueimport]

No you don't have to use a drop spindle, my 67 has 3" drop leafs from DSE and the DSE coil over relocation mod with stock spindles all done on the stock front subframe. You simply dial up and down the coil over shocks to adjust your ride height. Well its not as simple as I state, since the dse set up doesn't allow you to fit a spanner tool in the frame pocket to adjust up and down, so it has to be removed. I think you get my point, adjustable ride height. The rear leafs are 3 inch drop if you look closely the rear would look better if it could be dropped another inch, Im told the springs should settle although its been a while and it aint moving down. Overall it handles awesome, I dont think I would want to drive around in the car much lower especially with the condition of the roads where I live. Some say leafs drive harsh or a bit stiff, Ive never driven in a car with a coil over rear suspension so I dont no. I think with any well handling suspension set up the car has to get stiffer. Im no expert, but I can tell you if you have a budget some of these suspension set ups can get pricey.


Rich

Thanks Rich,
First off I know this may sound a little wrong hahaha but that is one pretty 67 you have there.
So what would change if I added drop spindles? Does it actually lower the stance or does it just reposition the suspension geometry? So that’s what the 3" leafs look like, I would have thought it would have been lower. Don’t get me wrong it looks good but I would have to agree with you that it looks like it could use another inch. As far as the stiffness of the overall suspension is concerned doesn’t really bother me. My last car had a full race coilover set up on it that was 36 way adjustable with poly everything and every suspension bracing available for that car and I still drove it on the street. It was like driving a brick hahaha so no matter what I do to the Nova it will never be that stiff well I can’t say never but you know what I mean.

Here is how I would like my car to sit, just another inch or so lower though.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5600/196732.jpg (http://img200.imageshack.us/i/196732.jpg/)http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/196732.jpg/1/w1024.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img200/196732.jpg/1/)
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/7299/196733.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/i/196733.jpg/)http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/196733.jpg/1/w820.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img181/196733.jpg/1/)

This guy is running....
"Front suspension- stock arms, QA1 adjustable coilovers, Quickar (sp?) swaybar.
Rear suspension- 2 in. lowered leafs, DSE Koni shocks and mount, 1.5 in. billet lowering block with thrust angle adjusters, homemade lower links and perches"

I would assume that the DSE 3" would sit lower but it doesn’t look like it on your 67. Does his look lower because of the lowering block? What’s a thrust angle adjuster? Does a less arched leaf from 2” to 3” make for an even stiffer ride? So in essence can you take a 2” leaf and make it sit like a 3” by adding lowering blocks?

Again sorry for all the questions guys I just want to understand it all better.
Thanks,
John

[67ragtp]

I would think the 3 inch drop springs would be pretty close to the same look of the nova in the picture. Perhaps the my camaro is a bad example since the shape of the quarter panel on the nova is significantly different. If you have a 3" drop spring you are effectively doing the same thing as using a 1" lowering block with a 2" drop spring. Not much difference. In the end you really have no ride height adjustability with a leaf spring rear suspension.

Ive heard that many drop spindles do affect the steering geometry(and not for the better). The AFX spindle from ATS is an example of a spindle that will lower 1" of ride height and drastically improve the camber curve geometry, perhaps you may want to look at them.

Check this out for a rear suspension:
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=20049&highlight=prodigy

Then give Frank a call, he has good deals on all your suspension needs, great tech support too.

Rich

[Teetoe_Jones]

John-

I'm going to copy and paste something I wrote on another site to save typing time.

I disagree with the guys who are telling you that a Hotchkis kit will be the way to go mainly because it does nothing to correct any of the issues that make the X body handle terribly. Here is the thread:
http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46999

Here is the part I want you to read:

Because most people eat that sh*t up. The TVS kit does not address any of the main issues with the poor geometry of these cars. You get new springs/leafs, a super stiff bar for the front AND the rear, some leaf spring pads, and tie rod sleeves. You put it on a 42 year old car with worn out rubber bushings, sagging low rate springs, a tiny anti-roll bar and monoleafs and all of a sudden you have a Ferrari.

You don't have a Ferrari now, but because they've been around so long, and 90% of the guys at Camaros.net swear by it, it must be true right?

Wrong. You didn't add any positive caster, you didn't fix the bumpsteer, you didn't fix the lack of negative camber gain, and the car is far from seeing it's true effectiveness on the street. Is it better than it was? Sure. But it could be SOOOO much better. Worlds better. Ferrari better.

I can hear some of you saying:
"I don't intend to race my car. I don't really need anything better than this."

You would be missing the point. The point is to upgrade our cars to be more dependable, handle better, stop quicker, and be more like the BMW and Mercedes some are driving to work every day. Wouldn't you like your 42 year old muscle car to feel like your buddy's BMW M5? Or maybe you prefer your Boss's new C6 Corvette?
Point is that there are bolt on parts out there that will actually give you this level of performance; More importantly they will give your car the feel and confidence of a well refined modern day sports car.

If you want to refine your muscle car you should address these key areas in the suspension:

1. Fix the geometry- Tall spindles, the Guldstrand Mod, tall ball joints, etc. All of these help to give some much needed negative camber gain. Continue this trend with tubular upper control arms that ADD the amount of positive caster. If you added tubular control arms without adding a tall spindle, tall ball joint, or relocated the upper control arm, you essentially only added caster and didn't fix anything; you just vastly improved your alignment specs to more modern standards.
2. Steering. Most of us have factory frames with steering boxes still on them. If you do, get a new steering gear that uses the modern day R&P valving. The feedback of these boxes is more like the late model Aston Martin that you took for a test drive last summer. Replace all your worn steering items with new units. Get a modern day alignment with modern day specs. Throw the factory settings in the trash. The feel of the car is reflected back to you through the steering wheel, so you should have a steering system that gives you the feel and feedback performance you expect by driving any modern day vehicle.
3. Springs and shocks. This is one of the keys to a good handling, and great driving muscle car. Don't skimp here and you will be rewarded with precision, balance and comfort. Go the low road and you will feel all the harshness of the pebbles that litter the blacktop, and curse the 3 hour ride to Uncle Stewart's cabin late this fall.
4. Tires. Good tires are the last piece in this formula. Get a good sticky tire and enjoy the experience it gives when cutting through your favorite back road, or exiting the freeway off ramp a few MPH higher than the little yellow sign suggests.

Regarding the rear bar issue- I took a client-now-friend's newly acquired 67 Camaro out for a spin one day. I only drove it for about 3 minutes, and never looked under the hood or under the car before doing so. During our quick jaunt through our back industrial roads, I was fighting for control of the ass end the entire time and figured it was because it might have a rear bar on it. We get it back to the shop, throw it on the lift and there it was- Hotchkis rear sway bar. Curtis, the owner of said 67 Camaro, was advised to remove it when he wanted his car to behave better on the street. He ended up taking it off later that week and the car became much easier to drive at its limit, or in emergency maneuvers.

Bottom line is do your homework for your chassis. You will soon be able to weed out the real stuff from the real fluff. Companies push what sells and what makes money; if all of you keep buying it without doing your due diligence, they will keep pushing it on the masses. I like when a company educates you on why you should buy a part instead of telling you that it's 25% off and in stock. The more questions you ask these companies, the more they are going to need to have answers, and not just marketing knowledge.

Tyler

Hope that helps your education some.

Tyler