Please Help - Broken Starter and Hot Alternator!? *pictures*

[camaro1969]

I have a really loud grinding when i try to start the car the car, could it be that the starter is not hitting the fly wheel properly or one bolt is torqued more than the other, causing very small, maybe even 1/64th of in inch incline, would this cause the starter to grind? Seems like the little gear in the starter does not want to retract back into the starter after cranking (picture 1)

I re-torqued my start bolts, i cranked it once to see if it fixed the problem, and this is what happened (Picture 2)

ALSO, my alternator gets extremely hot after few seconds of running (when i had it running before the grinding), after like maybe 30-45 seconds, the alternator is really hot, could it be backwards wires? (picture 3)

Picture 4 is the way i wired my alternator to my starter solenoid.

Please help, im unforturnate that i am building this car myself, i have no past experience, and so far have built my car off reading A LOT of your threads, dont post much because a lot of the topic i need to know about are cover.. but please PM if you need more information or pictures.. thanks, thanks in advance!! :willy:

Picture 1

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/camaro_1969/DSC00793.jpg

Picture 2

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/camaro_1969/DSC00797.jpg

Picture 3

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/camaro_1969/DSC00774.jpg

Picture 4

http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo52/camaro_1969/DSC00786.jpg

[67rstbkt]

It kind of sounds like your starter is bad, maybe the solenoid is getting stuck? As far as the alternator, if you followed the diagram posted, you should be o.k. Has the car been running fine and this just happened? Or are you starting it up for the first time?

[camaro1969]

i started it maybe first time 2 weeks ago, havent been running a lot, havent broke in the engine yet... havent ran if for more than 3 mins, havent had it idle at 3k rpm for like 20 mins.. just making sure it turns over and starts.. but for the 3 minutes it ran, the alternator did heat up, and has been ever time i start it, even for liek 30 seconds, itll start to get warm..

[jy211]

where are you located?

[GregWeld]

Okay -- so here's something VERY important.

IF you have a flat tappet cam -- cranking over the engine and starting it etc WITHOUT proper cam break in - is really asking for trouble (flattening the cam). This break in procedure is even more critical with todays oils. The reason it needs to be started and then brought up to 2500 rpms or so - is to splash oil on the lifters/cam lobe. Without that critical oiling and break in - you risk a problem down the road.

THIS is not a problem - and not required - if you have a ROLLER CAM.

Okay -- Starter motor had to have big torque applied to it to break an ear like that. There are clearances for proper starter motor install. I can't remember what they are exactly but I'm thinking .040 between the flywheel teeth and the starter gear - someone jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong. Lacking that - do some research and check what this figure should be. There are SHIMS that might be needed between the block and the starter motor mounting face. There are also special bolts that must be used -- they have a knurled shoulder on them.

ALTERNATOR:

On a ONE WIRE alternator - there is no need for the RED wire loop even though it's shown in the wiring diagram. All you need is ONE wire for charging. The PIX also show a brown wire == I ASSume this is going to a volt meter?? You don't need that either. The volt meter can come off any 12V + "hot when switched" wire - and will read the system voltage.

I would make sure that you have GROUNDS from the battery to body/frame/motor. Remember that the ground (-) is every bit as important and carries just as much load - as the positives! It's all part of the circuit. Make sure you clean the area between connections to BARE METAL. Don't use the motor mount as a ground - it's RUBBER between the frame and motor -- if you do -- I loop the ground between the frame bolt and the motor side bolts.

Have your battery load checked. If it's been sitting for awhile - it could be low (and the alternator is really trying to pound some amps back in it) or be "sulfated" - or you could have a bad cell not taking a charge - and that might make the alternator try to overcome this... but shouldn't (IMHO) as the alternator is internally regulated.

When you say the alternator is getting "hot" -- explain what your idea of hot is - or what you're observing.

[GregWeld]

Noticed your wiring diagram includes a BALLAST RESISTOR on the coil side -- DO NOT USE THAT (the resistor) IF you're running a NON POINT type distributor. The resistor is in the circuit to lower the voltage (to 7 V's) to the POINTS... that is for "back in da day" points distributors and you don't want to lower the voltage like that in modern 'systems' using MSD or similar distributors.

That's not part of your problem -- I just noticed its inclusion while checking out your wiring diagram.

[71RS/SS396]

your starter needs to be shimmed to get more clearance between the flywheel and starter gear,any autoparts store will have shims for this. also make sure your battery is up to full charge I have seen a low battery cause the engine to turn over slow and kick back and break the starter and check your timing to be sure it is not tofar advanced. Good luck

[GregWeld]

Do you know how to set up your timing - before starting the motor?? If not I could type up some 'help' for you. It's pretty simple but if you don't know how it's done I'd be willing to do a write up. That would help you get started and have it running pretty 'well' right off the bat.

[71RS/SS396]

Okay -- so here's something VERY important.

IF you have a flat tappet cam -- cranking over the engine and starting it etc WITHOUT proper cam break in - is really asking for trouble (flattening the cam). This break in procedure is even more critical with todays oils. The reason it needs to be started and then brought up to 2500 rpms or so - is to splash oil on the lifters/cam lobe. Without that critical oiling and break in - you risk a problem down the road.

THIS is not a problem - and not required - if you have a ROLLER CAM.

Okay -- Starter motor had to have big torque applied to it to break an ear like that. There are clearances for proper starter motor install. I can't remember what they are exactly but I'm thinking .040 between the flywheel teeth and the starter gear - someone jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong. Lacking that - do some research and check what this figure should be. There are SHIMS that might be needed between the block and the starter motor mounting face. There are also special bolts that must be used -- they have a knurled shoulder on them.

ALTERNATOR:

On a ONE WIRE alternator - there is no need for the RED wire loop even though it's shown in the wiring diagram. All you need is ONE wire for charging. The PIX also show a brown wire == I ASSume this is going to a volt meter?? You don't need that either. The volt meter can come off any 12V + "hot when switched" wire - and will read the system voltage.

I would make sure that you have GROUNDS from the battery to body/frame/motor. Remember that the ground (-) is every bit as important and carries just as much load - as the positives! It's all part of the circuit. Make sure you clean the area between connections to BARE METAL. Don't use the motor mount as a ground - it's RUBBER between the frame and motor -- if you do -- I loop the ground between the frame bolt and the motor side bolts.

Have your battery load checked. If it's been sitting for awhile - it could be low (and the alternator is really trying to pound some amps back in it) or be "sulfated" - or you could have a bad cell not taking a charge - and that might make the alternator try to overcome this... but shouldn't (IMHO) as the alternator is internally regulated.

When you say the alternator is getting "hot" -- explain what your idea of hot is - or what you're observing.

I have always used a straightened out paper clip to get the right amount of clearance on both sides of the gear. You will have to turn the gear out by hand on the starter to do this.

[camaro1969]

first off, much appreciated for all the response, dunno where id be without this forum!

okay, ill try to answer all the questions so you guys dont have to keep asking questions:

My cam;
Comp Cams #249-CL12-242-2

Xtreme Energy XE268H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft & Lifter Kit
Lift: .477''/.480''
Duration: 268°/280°
RPM Range: 1600-5800

It is a flat tappet, how do i break this in properly? i havent had a chance to break it in, ive started it maybe 3 times since i got it started the first time, for always less than a few mins.

I am located in Vancouver BC Canada, its impossible to find ppl that know about these types of cars, cant even ask anyone for help, without paying hundreds of dollars to have someone come check it out for even 20 mins!!

I am not using my BUS/Horn relay, the diagram didnt say i needed on, and my relay for my horn is now under the dash! Do i need to put my alternator wire to the BUS bar?

I am NOT using a ballast resistor.

I had a feelign i had to shim it, but the started i bought does had weird shims that didnt seem like they would fit the block? I need to now buy a new starter for my car, any suggestions!:willy:

How do i measure the distance of the starter gear to my flywheel, if the little gear in the starter shoots back into the starter, and comes out only when cranked?

My alternator has one BAT, and 2 male connector slots, does that mean its a 3 wire or a 1 wire? I can put up more pictures if required. If i just connect the bat, do i not need all the other stuff on my alternator? like the red wire from BAT to the 2 male slots on the alternator.

Alternator being hot, means HOT, like unbearably hot if i leave my hand on it for more than a second

Timing is not 100% but, it idles, and you can watch video of it idling on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPa1X6i-EkM

Battery is a new battery, if i ever feel it needs a little more juice, i jump it, otherwise, i havent charged it since I got it new(charged up ready to go when bought, 6 year warranty, bought a month ago)


Ground from battery termal is done to frame(same bolt for my engine mount), and then is split from frame to engine block, and another spilts to the body of the car.

My starter/solenoid had my red battery termal cable (12 gauge one), the red wire from my alternator, which turns into the blue (as you can see from the diagram) and brown, that comes from the alternator also. I had a purple, which was from my ignition going to my solenoid also, but on the little bolt of my starter, the other 3 were on the bigger bolt on the solenoid, and the last bolt had the starter cable to the solenoid.

Thank you, and sorry, i know newbies can be a pain :rolleyes:

[GregWeld]

first off, much appreciated for all the response, dunno where id be without this forum!

okay, ill try to answer all the questions so you guys dont have to keep asking questions:

My cam;
Comp Cams #249-CL12-242-2

Xtreme Energy XE268H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft & Lifter Kit
Lift: .477''/.480''
Duration: 268°/280°
RPM Range: 1600-5800

It is a flat tappet, how do i break this in properly? i havent had a chance to break it in, ive started it maybe 3 times since i got it started the first time, for always less than a few mins.

Break in on a flat tappet cam should be 20 / 25 minutes of high idle (2000 to 2500 RPMS varying this RPM without "revving it up"). What this does is makes sure during the 'break in period' that the cam get adequate oil splashed on it while the lifters and cam face "seat"... make sure you have adequate cooling during this period -- a fan placed in front of the car helps - and don't run this bad boy in your closed up garage!! LOL That just wouldn't do. Check your gas tank level too -- don't want to run out of gas!

I am located in Vancouver BC Canada, its impossible to find ppl that know about these types of cars, cant even ask anyone for help, without paying hundreds of dollars to have someone come check it out for even 20 mins!!

I am not using my BUS/Horn relay, the diagram didnt say i needed on, and my relay for my horn is now under the dash! Do i need to put my alternator wire to the BUS bar?

NO -- The alternator wire can go down to the starter motor lug where the battery cable comes in and connects. If you're going to crank on a big azz stereo, i.e, carry big loads - bigger never hurts! Remember that you're asking the alternator to carry loads that you can weld with!

I am NOT using a ballast resistor. GOOD! You'd be surprised how often I go to a show or something and see this still installed -- along with a new MSD ignition system...

I had a feelign i had to shim it, but the started i bought does had weird shims that didnt seem like they would fit the block? I need to now buy a new starter for my car, any suggestions!:willy:

Pull the flywheel guard off -- you should be able to access the starter / flywheel engagement from the front of the motor looking to the rear. You can engage the starter gear using a screw driver - it will freely go in and out. It will SPRING back if you let it = but you can easily hold this out long enough to check the engagement 'gap'. Use a BIG paper clip - straighten it out - and poke it between the teeth - the tooth on the starter gear should be the "male" side and it should be fully engaged to a "female" side of the flywheel. You may need to use a big screwdriver or something to engage the flywheel and "spin" the motor to a point where you can accurately measure this gap. If it's too tight - you'll need to use the proper shim (judgement used here) to increase the gap. It SHOULD NOT BE too tight. If it is - then the spring won't be able to retract the starter gear.

How do i measure the distance of the starter gear to my flywheel, if the little gear in the starter shoots back into the starter, and comes out only when cranked? SEE ABOVE

My alternator has one BAT, and 2 male connector slots, does that mean its a 3 wire or a 1 wire? I can put up more pictures if required. If i just connect the bat, do i not need all the other stuff on my alternator? like the red wire from BAT to the 2 male slots on the alternator. It's a one wire - internally regulated. You only need ONE wire -- attached to the point you have it now - the LUG on the back... the other wires are generally used when you have an "idiot light" and want to still use it. There is a ton of info - almost too much - on www.madelectrical.com - should you want to know more about this. This guy - Mad Electrical - is a bit over the top and likes the old style wiring used in new style cars... but he does know what he's talking about.. and it's always good info. Having said all that - you only need the CHARGE wire on the big lug to a 12V positive source - such as the starter lug...

Alternator being hot, means HOT, like unbearably hot if i leave my hand on it for more than a second -- SOMETHING WRONG THERE -- can't diagnose this without "being there" but try rewiring it per above and see if that helps that problem. Also - make sure your battery is up to snuff BEFORE you start the cam break in procedure.

Timing is not 100% but, it idles, and you can watch video of it idling on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPa1X6i-EkM

GOOD VIDEO -- motor sounds good -- just do the above - plus anything else someone else is willing to add... and BREAK IN THAT CAM! :>)

Battery is a new battery, if i ever feel it needs a little more juice, i jump it, otherwise, i havent charged it since I got it new(charged up ready to go when bought, 6 year warranty, bought a month ago) -- BATTERY SHOULD BE FINE THEN...


Ground from battery termal is done to frame(same bolt for my engine mount), and then is split from frame to engine block, and another spilts to the body of the car. GOOD -- just make sure they're not itty bitty wires - they need to carry 200 AMPS

My starter/solenoid had my red battery termal cable (12 gauge one), the red wire from my alternator, which turns into the blue (as you can see from the diagram) and brown, that comes from the alternator also. I had a purple, which was from my ignition going to my solenoid also, but on the little bolt of my starter, the other 3 were on the bigger bolt on the solenoid, and the last bolt had the starter cable to the solenoid.

YOU ARE WELCOME ---- we are all happy to help -- we've all been there done that!! OKAY --- too many wires down on the starter --- the purple is correct -- that is from the switch to the solenoid -- and it's connected correctly --- ditch the other wires off your alternator - sounds like you've got a "loop" going.... so read the statement on the ONE WIRE alternator.... and you should be good to go.... I hope. :>)

Thank you, and sorry, i know newbies can be a pain :rolleyes:
:cheers: :woot:

[camaro1969]

thanks SOO much! you live in bellvue, i owe you a beer!

I will try all the things u said, order a new starter, and get the cam ready to go!

ps i bought the car in monroe washington too :cheers:

[71RS/SS396]

I see you are running a flat tappet cam. I will tell you this in case you don't know make sure you use diesel formula oil or racing oil that has zddp (zinc) in it or you will wipe out the cam lobes in short order. All the standard oils nowadays are formulated for modern engines with roller cams and don't contain zinc because it kills the catalytic converters.

[camaro1969]

i am using just a 10w-30 right now, should i convert to the diesel formula oil or racing oil that has zddp after i change my oil for the 1st time?

[GregWeld]

i am using just a 10w-30 right now, should i convert to the diesel formula oil or racing oil that has zddp after i change my oil for the 1st time?

NO -- CHANGE IT NOW... or at least buy some zinc additive - several brands - one of the best can be bought from your local GM dealer parts department...

It's the very first few times you run the motor that it all has to work right and seat/break in. Don't wait on this.

EEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[camaro1969]

will do, ill pick it up from an automotive shop tomorrow:D

[Vegas69]

Greg...you sure are a fart smeller. Great advice. Valvoline Vr1 has the zinc you need and can be bought at most parts stores.