Last try to solve this issue! ( So far 0 for 1000)

[BC69]

Okay, so I am sure if you research my old posts I have brought this up 15 times. But it is still persistent, and a huge headache at times.

Problem: Basically, since the car was completed, it randomly will not start. Pull in to get gas, won't restart. Stop for food, won't restart. It doesn't turn over or anything. Just completely battery dead. Battery gauge while driving (and I check constantly now) is right at 14. But when you go to start, seems to be down to 8, like something is bleeding the battery.

Fix AttemptsFirst time it happened, my shop changed a couple wiring harnesses, even though they had all been brand new. And ultimately believed it was the neutral safety switch on the transmission. But I don't believe that anymore.

Since then, if it happens, generally the car will start after a jump, or if you just let it sit sometimes it will start. Which makes me think it could be heat related. But this has happened 2 minutes into driving or 2 hours. So while I still think it could be heat, how would that drain the battery? I can see heat impacting the starter, but the battery?

The starter and battery are both brand new. Engine is 350 with 3 speed auto. Harnesses are all new. Alternator is a bit older, but has been tested and is fine.

Right now my car is in storage at a mechanic's house, he has tried to get the car to duplicate this non-start issue, but never can. What is funny is he will let it run for a while to heat up, cruise neighborhood and see if it will not start. No luck. I will take the car out, drive 1/2 mile to the gas station, and it will die!

This is seriously frustrating and its been to the shop a few times, but I think to diagnostically figure it out would need some luck, getting the car to do it, or a random electrical system hunt which could cost a bundle.

So once again, I ask for some ideas on what could be causing this? Free beer to anyone who can solve it!

Thanks,
Tim

[camcojb]

sounds like a grounding issue or loose connection to me. Have you ever tested the battery voltage at the battery when this condition occurs? I'm going to guess that the battery voltage is probably not real low, but a poor/missing ground or loose positive or negative connection is what's happening.

I would also rig up a manual bypass for the neutral safety switch just in case to test when it happens again; if the switch is faulty or misadjusted it will not turn over at all. Do the lights work when this happens or is everything dead?

Jody

[Vegas69]

Intermittent problems are the hardest to figure out. Carry a multimeter with you so next time it happens you can diagnose the problem. I'm leaning towards a battery cable or battery cable connections. That could also include a problem inside the starter solenoid housing. You can perform a voltage drop test on both your battery cables by placing the leads on both end of the positive cable.(Battery side and starter side) and your negative by battery side and say the cylinder block or frame. You should see say .1 or .2 volts max. When it happens, I would like to see you check the votage at the battery itself. If you have 12.8 volts or 13 or whatever and your volt gauge reads 8, you know you have a cable issue, intenral starter issue, and quite possibly a ignition switch issue depending on where your volt gauge is wired into the system.

[BC69]

Good suggestions on the battery. Haven't tested the voltage at the battery itself when this happened.

Lights and radios are working, just not enough power for it to turn over. Battery cables are new too.

I have had issues with the gauges before, replaced the tach and the speedo works when it feels like it.

[GM Muscle]

bad ground.

[DOOM]

sounds like a grounding issue or loose connection to me. Have you ever tested the battery voltage at the battery when this condition occurs? I'm going to guess that the battery voltage is probably not real low, but a poor/missing ground or loose positive or negative connection is what's happening.

I would also rig up a manual bypass for the neutral safety switch just in case to test when it happens again; if the switch is faulty or misadjusted it will not turn over at all. Do the lights work when this happens or is everything dead?

Jody

I think Jody is on to something here . I just had a car in my shop with the same problem. I just put a battery in the car about 4 months earlier. The car would be fine , then all of a sudden it would'nt start. It would jump right off with the jump pack . But I never thought of the battery because I just put it in.Spent countless weeks with this problem. After I really sat down and went through all I did and checked. I did what Jody is telling you and it turned out the new battery was junk .. (DELCO) just must of gotten a bad one... All is good now.

[AJSZR2326]

sounds like something is loose, when you try to duplicate the problem have you tried jamming on the brakes, taking hot corners or accelerating? could be battery( take one out of neighbors car and try) you know its electrical so there's a start. you only need a battery ,solonoid and starter to make a car turn over, electrically speaking.whats the status of the starter?

[BC69]

The thing is, that when this started, I replaced the battery. And the one that was taken out was tested and actually OK. Just replaced it to be certain. So it has done this same thing with two batteries. The starter is also new, has maybe 1000 miles on it now. Cables have 4k miles on them. Might replace the cables though now....

[monza]

I had exactly the same problems you are describing , drove me nuts!

Finally traced it down to the fuse box and the connection between the firewall side and the dash side specifically the ignition wire connection in the fuse box. At some point this connection became loose and looked like it was electrical arching between the two sides causing the plastic to become brittle and loosing a solid connection... I assumed continually getting worse and worse.
I bypassed the fuse box with that particular wire and it was fixed.

The actual cause was created by the bolt that connects the firewall side and interior side of the fuse box, at some point it looks like it was connected cross threaded, or a bad thread from day one? It seemed tight but it was not, it was cross threaded and could not tighten anymore (the T-nut embedded in the plastic was spinning) although from all indications it was tight.

Might be something to look at hopefully it helps??? Next time it happens go giggle the fuse box.... and try and start it, or have someone giggle the fuse box while you start it?

[jcal87]

bad ground.

x2 sounds like it needs to be checked

[killerdiller]

engine block grounded correctly??

[TreySmith]

Maybe your timing is horribly off, my car won't start some times after it has been running a while. I fixed the timing and it starts up just fine. Just a guess.

[tones2SS]

sounds like a grounding issue or loose connection to me. Have you ever tested the battery voltage at the battery when this condition occurs? I'm going to guess that the battery voltage is probably not real low, but a poor/missing ground or loose positive or negative connection is what's happening.

I would also rig up a manual bypass for the neutral safety switch just in case to test when it happens again; if the switch is faulty or misadjusted it will not turn over at all. Do the lights work when this happens or is everything dead?

Jody

I agree with Jody here. If you say the battery is brand new and the alternator/starter is in good condition, it sounds like a grounding issue or loose positive/negative connection.
GOOD LUCK!!:thumbsup:

[wedged]

Ok, odds are slim, but it could still be the battery. I'm going to vote for a bad connection somewhere- possibly a ground, but maybe not. I would test the battery with a load tester- do a few times allowing the battery and tester to cool between tests. I've run into problems like this on customer cars and they'll tell you everything under the hood has been checked and/or is new. Then when the problem is located you get "....but I just replaced that and it's good, I checked it." Re-check EVERYTHING you've already checked and recheck it all during one session so you don't skip or miss anything.

You need to carry with you a test light, a volt/ohm meter and a jumper pack until you find the problem.

[tones2SS]

Did you get the problem resolved? If so, what was the problem?

[BC69]

Did you get the problem resolved? If so, what was the problem?

I am meeting up with a mechanic friend tomorrow morning to go through all of your advice to see if we can find a problem. Getting the car to duplicate the issue is tough though, you never can tell when it will or won't start haha! Generally the farthest point from home is a good spot. :rolleyes:

I will update everyone tomorrow night. Thanks for the suggestions and I hope we find the issue!

[tones2SS]

I am meeting up with a mechanic friend tomorrow morning to go through all of your advice to see if we can find a problem. Getting the car to duplicate the issue is tough though, you never can tell when it will or won't start haha! Generally the farthest point from home is a good spot. :rolleyes:

I will update everyone tomorrow night. Thanks for the suggestions and I hope we find the issue!

Good luck!!:cheers:

[HRBS]

I had a similar problem with a street rod. It was so sporadic it drove us nuts. LONG story short the starter wasnt engaging properly with the flex plate. The starter wasnt shimed properly and the selenoid would throw the shaft and get lodged in the teeth making NO noise or sign of trying to crank. Sometimes it would engage and sometimes it wouldnt.
Try cranking yours when COLD. Do it several times over and over and see if it happens when the engine is cold. If it does you can rule out the hot/cold idea. I know this doesnt explain the low voltage issue, but thought I'd make a different suggestion.
Another idea is like Trey suggested. Timing could be off that when it is hot it wont crank.
Either way... I feel for you. Electrical gremlins are a PITA to diagnose. :willy:
Good luck..... be sure to let us know what is was when you find out.

[rustbucket69]

I had a very similar issue on a truck I had in college. It turned out to be a relay in the Code Alarm that was installed for the ignition switch. Fortunately, the truck had a manual transmission, so I could still push start it (and became very good at doing it until I discovered the relay). Similar to how you describe your issue, everything electrical worked except for the starter.

Maybe?

[BC69]

Thanks for all the help guys.

So here is what we did this morning.

I took the car out to get it hot (never had issues with a cold start). It was in the 90's here today, so I had it up to 205 after about 45 minutes. Came back, turned it off, let it sit for a minute. And........ It Started Right Up!

We kept trying, but it wouldn't reproduce. Regardless, we cleaned up the main ground connections, and remounted the starter, reconnected all the cables, cleaned up the battery mounts as well. Making sure everything was flush, and tight. We checked the fuse box, no problems there. Followed the electrical lines to see if any problems there.

We must have started the car 50 times during this whole time. Never had an issue at all. So, honestly, I don't know if what we did solved it or not, and won't know until it does it again, or doesn't haha!

The car has a console shifter, but the column itself is for a column shifted car. We played around with this, and the shifter to see if maybe it was a neutral safety switch problem. But nothing, started fine no matter what we did with the column or console shifter.

So, I appreciate all the help, we went through alot of your suggestions, and still have a checklist to run through if it actually does this again.

Thanks,
Tim

[tones2SS]

Glad to hear that the problem went away (HOPEFULLY).
Always seems to happen doesn't it. Everytime you're ready to diagnose the problem, the problem seems to disappear.
GOOD LUCK!:cheers:

[slammed68]

the problem sounds like a voltage issue that isnt allowing the solinoid to engage. i had this problem with my 68... i could drive it 2 min to the gas station and it wouldnt start back up. the problem was the heat from the headers right next to the solinoid. im not sure if it was the heat increasing the resistance or not but i ran a ford solinoid inline to insure full voltage and it works like a champ.

[BC69]

Well.....its back!!!!!!!!!!!!


I took a couple days off for the long weekend and the gremlin is back. Before getting home, I actually had my mechanic take the car out a couple times this week to see if it would replicate, and it didn't! Just when I am in the car I guess.

First Time: I had the car out for maybe 1 hour, and stopped to wash it. It was sitting in the shade for 2 hours while I cleaned it. Got in, and it wouldn't start! All I did was get out and mess with the cables a bit (no tools with me to diagnose anything at that time). And it Started! Wierd!

Last night: I spent the day at Lime Rock park, about 2 hours away. The car was parked there all afternoon in the sun, but it started no problem when I went to leave. Drove the two hours home and parked it here for dinner. About 3 hours later, went back out to go for a spin...wouldn't start!

I put the battery charger on it for about 30 minutes, checked all the cable connections. This time none of that worked. I am at my moms and have no tools here. I have yet to go out this morning to check. I give it 50/50 it starts right now. If it doesn't, I will run to store to get a voltage meter and start some testing. But it is back!

I think we can say its not heat related, and its not a bad ground. The ground was taken care of a couple weeks ago when we redid all the connections.

So...more thoughts?

It was also my Birthday yesterday! It should not do that on my bday! haha.

Thanks

[BC69]

Well....I just walked outside this morning. Fired right up!!!!!

Last night, it had been sitting long enough that the exhaust manifolds were cool to the touch, so I don't get how the extra time over night to cool would change things. And now I can't diagnose anything either haha.

[tones2SS]

Happy belated birthday by the way.:cheers:

[540]

I had a similar problem with my Impala spent days trying to figure it out alarm,battery, stater, was goin crazy. The car had a side post repair kit installed that when you moved things around a bit the car would start right up.

Loose connection. that is what this sounds like something that you have check many times but it is there. This is very hard to find becouse sometimes it all works good but hit a bump and there it does it again. Try to add a second ground to the motor also the starter might have a loose connection,sometimes you make the connections and then you install it and it loosens up becouse you moved it.
The fact that you move things around and sometimes it works it is the samething that happen to me. Next time just use a meter or test light to check wiring.

put a second wire going to the stater solenoid put a push start switch and next time it does not start see if by activating the second switch it turns over.

It could be you ingition switch.

Good luck.

[GregWeld]

My vote is the ignition switch...

[Novette_71]

I had the same thing years ago. Went to gas station or 7-11 to pick up some stuff, came out, engine wont crank.

Very frustrating. My problem was heat related and very obvious. When the engine is hot the piston rings close the gap, the compression is higher, my starter wouldnt be able to handle it.

You try a couple of times and because the amp drain is so high the battery was dead very quickly. If I just waited long enough (I mean looooong enough) the engine cooled down abit and I could start it up again.

Installed a new 150 bucks mini starter and never had a problem again. Another advantage is that even when your battery is low the ministarter can still crank it up because of the gear reduction, so with one like this you might even solve your prob even if it is NOT starter related.

[fasbird]

My vote is the ignition switch...

Seems logical if all the stated connections have been checked. If a starter relay was installed a quick by-pass check can eliminate the ignition switch.

:question: I feel your frustration, but as stated by many, you need to carry a few small (read: very small) tools around with you until you solve the problem. Not to sound goofy, but with all the aggrevation you have had, how hard is it to carry a test light, volt/ohm meter and a couple small screw drivers and wrenches for testing in the trunk or glovebox? Just thinking out loud.

Good luck in finding the solution! :thumbsup: