Control arms/coil overs - any difference?

[mrr1999]

Hey guys-

I am looking to purchase a set of control arms for my 69 Camaro (running a big block). I am leaning towards a kit by either DSE or Speed tech. Is one better than the other, or maybe the better question is what is the difference between the 2? (performance, feel, installation?) Also, each set comes with coil overs. DSE's come with Koni's and Speed tech has QA1's. Same question - is there a major difference in performance and/or feel? Thanks!

[dhutton]

I thought the DSE kit requires that you weld in their brackets using their alignment jig. This can only be done with the engine out of the car. You also have break the balljoint and drop the control arm to adjust them. I think the ATS setup is easier to use and install if you want to weld in the brackets.

The Speedtech ones are just bolt in as far as I know.

Don

[Heidts#14]

What are you looking to get out of the car? Are you looking for killer performance or an upgrade from stock?

:cheers:

[mrr1999]

The car will be 95% street (for now). I would like to get into something that I won't outgrow if I decide to autoX or road race in the future, but realistically I wont do it all that often. It's the old standard - I want to get the maximum performance at the best price. I see comparable systems out there fluxuating in price by $600-700. Some are MIG welded, some are TIG. Some are 100% bolt in and some require some minor fabrication. Different groups of guys swear by all of them so I am assuming most kits are pretty close in performance and quality...however I could be horribly mistaken. :rolleyes:

[DFRESH]

I was in your space awhile back---ended up with complete Speedtech setup, coilovers, their reccomended sway bar, and ATS spindles. I was going to do the frame mod for the DSE coilover and use their speed 3 kit (I believe that was the one), however it didn't make sense since my car was together. I have yet to be in a similar equiped DSE car, but mine handles very well, mostly street and will be used for autocrossing and some track days. Roger, Blake and the guys at Speedtech are great to deal with as well.

Doug

[JRouche]

Dont mean to add any confusion into the mix but SPC also makes some quality parts. I bought some CAs from them. Got them from SC&C. JR
http://www.spcperformance.com/PROD_DIR/PERF_MUSC_DIR/SPCPerf_MUSCLECHEVCAM.html

[mrr1999]

Good info, thanks. The more suspension info the better, so keep it coming.

Since the cost of the ATS spindles is pretty high for my budget, how much of a difference do they make? I know guys have been going crazy over them, but with a good set of UCA's and LCA's, a sway bar, coil overs, the G-Mod and steering box is it worth the associated cost (granted I could find a pair) for a 95% street car?

[g_vanlaar]

You could do the tall upper ball joint and get some of the gain the afx spindles will give you for the fraction of the cost. Also, if you do go with the afx spindle, it will save money when it comes time for brakes.

[mrr1999]

How so? Less components? I was looking at a Wilwood setup now that has all of the pieces.

[dhutton]

How so? Less components? I was looking at a Wilwood setup now that has all of the pieces.

AFX spindles allow you to use stock C5 calipers, abuttments and rotors. This is usually a substantial savings over other solutions depending on where you buy them.

Don

[g_vanlaar]

Also, if you are dead set on coil overs (may not be the best for you) Chris Alston has a bolt in coil over for your car that is IMO better than the QA1.

[mrr1999]

Will that bolt into Speed tech's UCA and LCA? There have been a few people steering me away from the QA1 coil over. Why do you think the coil over might not be the best route? Too harsh for mostly street?

[camaro2nv]

PM Blake from speedtech. Hes very helpful.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/member.php4?u=1034

[skatinjay27]

if your trying to truley get the best performance for the least amount of money the you really shouldnt bother with the lower control arms... and since you dont plan on getting heavily into racing you dont need them.
also the speedtech lowers have no performance gain over stock LCA's,the dse lowers are built with aditional + caster but you really dont need them unless you push you car to the limit...
people were probabaly trying to steer you away from qa1 due to the fact that more than less people have had negative reviews on them concerning quality control issues.

why are you set on coil-overs for your mainly street car esp. if your concerned about budget? a conventional coil spring/strut setup will be perfectly fine for you.

best performance for a lower budget for the front end I would sugest
any upper that arent just street rod pieces and are actually geometry corrected like DSE,speedtech,global west,spc just to name a few(brand loyalty;) ) stock lowers with delrin/del-a-lum bushings,hotckis(just example) coil springs with a bb i would say atleast 600# + ,good shocks ie: koni,bilstien,varishocks,etc(adjustable is better but thier not a MUST)
baer bump steer eliminators,a good 12:1 steering box personally i would go with a lee speq'ed box for ATS or SC&C. and if you can swing it DEFFINATLY get the AFX tall spindles... like mentioned above you can just bolt up corvette c5-c6 brakes right to them and they are a much cheaper option but will be more than enough braking power for you.
hope theres some usefull insite there for ya.

[mrr1999]

Great info! Thanks. I was leaning towards the coil-overs for a couple of reasons. One, if I decide to get more into racing, they are already there and wont have to be upgraded - granted I choose the correct set up. Second, I'm sure its a mental thing, but I didn't want to have the "I shoulda's" after I finish building the car. Now I will be totally honest, after all of these years of building cars, I have only done stock resto's, mild resto-mods and drag cars (way back). as far as a handling car, I really don't know what to expect from any of the parts I select (coils vs coil overs, 3 link vs 4 link vs lowered leafs). All I currently know is that the original set up is pretty much a death trap :) I guess in the grand scheme of things, I assumed coil overs were just the best way to go from the majority of cars running them.

Budget is definitely huge on this, but if there is a major improvement in feel and performance by spending $1-2K more on the build, I figure I should go for it. Thanks for your help!

[skatinjay27]

no there isnt any real big performance gain by going coilovers over conventional coil springs... all you'd really gain by going with coil overs is that youll have adjustable ride height and they weight less.even if you get into racing youll be very competetive with leafs and conventional coils...
and as far as leafs to a 3/4 link go, a car with leafs can perform just as good as a car with a 3/4 link rear suspension its just that you have to sacrifice ride quality to do so. lowered leaf springs will just have a stiffer ride.

[Blake Foster]

no there isnt any real big performance gain by going coilovers over conventional coil springs... all you'd really gain by going with coil overs is that youll have adjustable ride height and they weight less.even if you get into racing youll be very competetive with leafs and conventional coils...
and as far as leafs to a 3/4 link go, a car with leafs can perform just as good as a car with a 3/4 link rear suspension its just that you have to sacrifice ride quality to do so. lowered leaf springs will just have a stiffer ride.


what about the shock damping adjustibility?
and why sacrifice ride quality
the speed tech lowers have a performance gain over the stock arms in that they are far more ridgid, the bushings are delrin and they will accomidate the coil overs with out the posibility of cracking at the shock mount as for the positive caster that can be gained in the upper arm.
just something to think about
the quality issues with qa1 we have not seen and have sold hundreds, i am sure qa1 has sold a few also.
i have herd more issues with some of the other shocks you mention

[skatinjay27]

forgive me but how does a coil-over offer more shock dampening adj. over a conventional setup?
"why sacrifice ride quality" i just meant that for the rear suspension but to answer that question... $$$;)

unless theres something I'm missing all you gain by going coil-over is adj-ride height, less weight, and a more modern look bundled up in a neater smaller package.

I was just answering his question about people mentioning to stay away from QA1 and suggested maybe that why they said that... no need to be condescending.:P

I dont want you to take it as I'm bashing your product, but if the guys saying he wants to keep the budget down but looking for the best performance for the $$$ then why spend the extra for coilovers and LCA but have doubts on getting the spindles?

[JRouche]

Hey Mike, feeling dizzy yet LOL I feel yer pain, SO many options to go with. And just as many opinions too. Options and opinions, DIZZY!!

But.... You are getting some good ideas Im sure. And in the end you will go with what suits you, cost, performance, upgradability, looks, ease of installation, and other stuff.

Ok, some more opinion fer ya :) The advantage of going with one supplier of all the components you want is they have gone through the issues of compatibility. You may pay slightly more (worth it for compatibility testing), maybe even get a better deal than piece mealing a system together. And IMO even if a part isnt gonna add mountains of performance, say the lower CAs, if they match the uppers then the aesthetic value can be worth it. Looks are more important on a street car than a track car. So if the arms match, it looks like a package, not a half azzed approach to getting some improvements. And the aftermarket lowers do add in strength besides looks. Remember, the entire front end load is placed on them. The uppers just control the uprights placement.

Coilovers? I dont have them but I would have them over stock springs. Tunability means alot to me. More spring rates available. And again, they just look better.

And I would get the AFX uprights while yer at it. Dont know what the cost of them are but they appear to be the hot ticket.

All about the money really. Its kinda an endless road with the parts available but the wallet will dictate alot of what happens. Cant wait to see what you come up with. JR

[Vegas69]

I'd just go with a DSE subframe. :rofl: I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a Hotchkis TVS kit. Then you could do a gulstrand mod for camber gain and an upper like a speedtech with more caster.

[Blake Foster]

forgive me but how does a coil-over offer more shock dampening adj. over a conventional setup?
"why sacrifice ride quality" i just meant that for the rear suspension but to answer that question... $$$;)

unless theres something I'm missing all you gain by going coil-over is adj-ride height, less weight, and a more modern look bundled up in a neater smaller package.

I was just answering his question about people mentioning to stay away from QA1 and suggested maybe that why they said that... no need to be condescending.:P

I dont want you to take it as I'm bashing your product, but if the guys saying he wants to keep the budget down but looking for the best performance for the $$$ then why spend the extra for coilovers and LCA but have doubts on getting the spindles?


not ment to be condescending :)

you forgot to mention the damping adjustment option of QA1 coil over and im not saying the QA1 is the be all end all but it is a GREAT option for 450 bucks easi to install no modifications and they make a big differance. and hey i would do the spindles also if i had the 800 bucks and then brakes if you already have some??? like some one else said opinions,opinions everyone has them and thank god for that

[mrr1999]

Thanks, guys. really good insight about the pros and cons of going in several directions. You do bring up a good question, though: if the AFX spindles can fit in the budget, does it make a world of difference even on a car used mostly on the street? Lets say the control arms (uppers or uppers/lowers) and coil overs get installed. 12:1 steering box goes in. Maybe even do the g-mod, do $800 spindles make that much of a difference or is it a slight increase in performance?

I guess my research would be a whole lot easier if there were more opportunity to feel all of these parts in action. Since there isn't, I'll keep asking questions. :thumbsup: Thanks again!

[skatinjay27]

I guess my research would be a whole lot easier if there were more opportunity to feel all of these parts in action. Since there isn't, I'll keep asking questions. :thumbsup: Thanks again!actually you do...:unibrow:
theres a member on here that doesnt post much but hes here in vegas also and has the hotckis TVS kit and global west uppers and tylers AFX spindles in a 68 with a BB!
also theres todds car! but i wouldnt even go look at his car if you wanna keep you projects budget reasonable! lol

im sure both of them wouldnt mind taking ya for a ride!:thumbsup:

[Blake Foster]

Also keep in mind if you do the Guilstrand mod you don't need the spindles and visa versa one or the other, will you notice it on a street droven car. ??????

[mrr1999]

Thanks, Blake. Regarding the spindles, that's the answer I was looking for. I am doing the g-mod either way, so that takes care of that. Even if it doesn't significantly help a street car, it only costs time (which I have).

[JRouche]

Maybe even do the g-mod, do $800 spindles make that much of a difference or is it a slight increase in performance?


OUCH!!! I had NO idea they were that expensive, really, 800 dollar spindles. Ummm, in my humble and not rich opinion the answer to your question is no. I was thinking they were around 350-450 a set.

I would go the route you described, arms, coilover, G-mod and save the 800 bones for something that you will notice the performance on a street car. I had no idea you guys were plopping down that kind of money. Man, I gotta go back to the junk yard car forum LOL JR

[awr68]

Well to add to the confusion! ATS does offer the spindle in a stock height as well for those that already have the DSE coil over conversion or G-mod done to their frame. This allows you to use the better C5 bearing pack and Vette based brakes......

[speedjohnston]

I bought the AFX spindles and even though they cost a little more, they reduced the price of the equivelant brakes had I have kept the stock spindle.

[mrr1999]

Good point. I'll do the math between the corvette components vs the Wilwood setup I was looking at. If the combination cost is similar, then it's definitely a consideration. It's funny. I never figured choosing control arms and brakes would be so much of a process! :willy: Thanks again.

[tones2SS]

I'd just go with a DSE subframe. :rofl:

What Todd said. I know you said no auto-x for the car, but maybe in the future. In that case, why not be "ahead" of the game and get the DSE? It's got a "proven" track record, no pun intended.
I am not putting down Speed-Tech's stuff at all, they make some killer stuff as well. I've seen both,the DSE and Speed-Tech first hand in person and if I wasn't going DSE, Speed-Tech would be my first choice. (I actually may still go with the Speed-Tech sub frame and rear suspension.)
GOOD LUCK and let us know what you did chose.:thumbsup: :cheers:

[mrr1999]

If a new sub frame wasn't possible due to budget, would you say the control arms between DSE and Speed-Tech are comparable in feel/performance? I know the welding processes are different, but since I won't be hard-core autoX or road racing it ever, I doubt that weld strength will ever be an issue.

Also, I read somewhere that the DSE arms do not require the g-mod due to the construction geometry. Is that true? Thanks for your input.

[Vegas69]

Actually, DSE has their own specific template for the gmod. I was going that route before I decided to swap subs.

[mrr1999]

Actually, DSE has their own specific template for the gmod. I was going that route before I decided to swap subs.

Thanks, Todd.

[JRouche]

would you say the control arms between DSE and Speed-Tech are comparable in feel/performance? I know the welding processes are different, but since I won't be hard-core autoX or road racing it ever, I doubt that weld strength will ever be an issue.

I just went to both web sites, read the description just for the upper arms. They are both solid pieces. Whats the diff in the welding process? Both appear to be tig welded, in a jig Im sure. The welds wont be an issue with either arm. They both use a great bearing surfaces too, no poly there. Both use a delrin bushing. One is a Acetron GP. I personally like Delrin AF. But anyway, both much better than poly.

Decent site that talks about the diff delrins. http://www.quadrantepp.com/default.aspx?pageid=78



Ill be honest, I dont see too much of a diff for quality just from the pics. The geometry looks to be similar too.

The speedtechs are 150 bucks less if that means anything. JR

Oh yeah, one more thing I noticed. The speedtech uses a castle nut and cotter pin. In a way I like those more than the nylocks. Never had a nylock come loose, but the castle nut is a positive locking nut. But.... I like the nylocks for being able to creep up on the side load of the bushing and get it just right. And if you also like nylocks they can be put on the speedtech arms. I actually like solid metal locknuts. They have more cycles for on and off. Nylocks are good for three or so cycles they say. I usually dont like to remove and use them more than twice. On my car I use metal locknuts for the lower arm bolt cause the nut is just about touching my header tube, gets kinda warm there.

Ok, Im not done picking the nits LOL Im looking at the bushing setups. It appears DSE uses an aluminum sleeve between the plastic and the CA. And the ST uses the plastic between the CA and shaft. I dont see too much of a prob with the aluminum sleeve as long as it stays tied to the CA in rotation. If it slips and rotates separate of the CA I can see some galling taking place between the aluminum and steel. I like the two bearing surface bushings (CA to plastic then plastic to shaft) of the ST VS the three bearing surface (CA to aluminum, aluminum to plastic, plastic to shaft). Im sure they dont have a problem, just my preference. I imagine they did it to be able to have a nice machined surface (the aluminum sleeve) riding on the plastic VS the DOM tube of the CA. But both surfaces of the bushing, OD and ID shouldnt be in rotation, just one. So if the plastic grabs the steel CA and slides on the shaft then thats a good setup.

Ok, how bout the lowers. They both look like solid pieces, well constructed and powder coated for the duration. Looks like with the ST arms you can use either stock springs or coilovers. The DSE you buy which arm you want for which spring you are gonna use. They both have steering and bump stops and delrin bushings. Whats odd is I didnt see the zerk fitting to grease the bushings, and even delrin can be helped with some grease. I like lubriplate "special auto-marine grease" Surpasses some of the better synthetic greases in a couple specs.

Oh, and the prices for the lower arms are about the same. List prices. Im sure one of the dealers here can get you free shipping or 10% list on the arms. common dealer discounts.

Ok, so there is my look on it. They both have great arms. I dont think you will go wrong with either company really.. Drop the hammer!!!!!

DSE uppers
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/Steves%20Nova/DSE.jpg

Speed Techs uppers
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/Steves%20Nova/speedtech.jpg

DSE lowers
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/Steves%20Nova/DSE-1.jpg

Speed Tech lowers
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Jrouche/Steves%20Nova/ST.jpg

[mrr1999]

Wow. Thanks for going way beyond. :hail: That pretty much sums up the whole control arm question. Now for the other 200 parts I have to compare. Once again, thanks for all of your research. I appreciate it.

[JamesJ]

Or if you really want to save some money you can always just fix whats wrong...


http://www.pozziracing.com/first_gen_suspension.htm

[Marcus SC&C]

The OP asks about contral arms. Of the two choices presented both are very good quality and offer easier - camber/+ caster alignment and comparable bushings. That being the case I`d go with the less expensive choice and say SpeedTech. Both offer a coil over option but they`re apples and oranges. The SpeedTech is a straight bolt on coil over (hybrid) conversion with no other mods. The DSE involved cutting and welding to install a conventional coil over along with new upper A arms mounts which incorperate a version of the venerable G Mod. This gives you some modest geometry improvement but prevents you from using AFX tall spindles or our X-tall Severe Duty tall ball joints which can offer larger gains (especially the AFX tall spindles). Typically we start where the car has the most trouble, fix that issue then move on to the next one and so on. The geometry on these cars is what`s really bad, also the factory bumpsteer so I`d prefer to see you fix those issues first. That may entail tall spindles, some variation of the G mod (no bumpsteer correction) or a tall balljoint/tie rod end package like our Stage 2-Plus etc. Correcting this fundamental geometry is a real game changer! We`re not talking small incremental improvements, but rather making it drive like a whole new car. When you alter the geometry you`ll almost always have to change the upper A arms to ones made to work with that new geometry. Once installed you`ll also be changing the alignment to more performance oriented settings which will add more performance. Then complete the system with performance rate springs, lowered stance and performance shocks , preferably adjustable. The car can`t tell if you`re using coil overs mounted in the stock location or coil springs and shocks. The coil overs give some adjustment but not as much as you`d think, they have a number of functional limitations based on travel,spring length etc. You can also get adj. ride height with factory type performance springs if you run SPC Performance lower A arms with their modular adj. height lower spring seats. They give you a larger usable range than a coil over conversion but without the worry of setting them up wrong. Combine it with a good adj. aluminum shock and you have a system you can dial in to the height you want and run for 100,000 miles with rock solid reliability. Mark SC&C

[mrr1999]

Thanks, Mark. I just sent you a PM.

[70rs]

PM sent in reply to yours Mike.
Where can I find pictures of your project?

[Serpa69]

I did DSE uppers and lowers with Gulstrand Mod(Thought they looked cool and I like the bushings) Stock spindles Timken bearings (my car does not got 200MPH so I don’t care about sealed corvette bearings really, what the is the point of ATS spindles???? a ton of money) C5 brakes with a speed tech bracket kit and a QA1 coilover I have adjusted them several times (very easy) mostly because the springs have settled. I think the car works great I do not have half the money most people do on these sites. Honestly if I was going to dump any more money than what I have currently, I would have purchased a total after market frame/suspension set up. I go to several open track days and the only thing I do is set the tire pressure and turn up the compression and rebound knobs and get to work. That is just my two cents. I will post a picture of the tire at full lock so you can see how much camber you get with this set up. It blew my mind when I saw it after the changes. It also made a big improvement in how much confidence I have with the car now.

[Teetoe_Jones]

I did DSE uppers and lowers with Gulstrand Mod(Thought they looked cool and I like the bushings) Stock spindles Timken bearings (my car does not got 200MPH so I don’t care about sealed corvette bearings really, what the is the point of ATS spindles???? a ton of money) .

They could be compared to what the DSE hydroformed frame is able to put down. The G mod is an improvement over stock, but the AFX spindle goes well above and beyond what the G mod can do by itself. We correct bumpsteer, give a much more aggressive camber curve, shed unsprung weight, increase strength, add larger wheel bearings with WSS, etc. The benefits are worth the price as our spindle by itself has geometry figures that exceed the DSE frame. We have proven our design countless times in a variety of venues.

Tyler

[XLexusTech]

They could be compared to what the DSE hydroformed frame is able to put down. The G mod is an improvement over stock, but the AFX spindle goes well above and beyond what the G mod can do by itself. We correct bumpsteer, give a much more aggressive camber curve, shed unsprung weight, increase strength, add larger wheel bearings with WSS, etc. The benefits are worth the price as our spindle by itself has geometry figures that exceed the DSE frame. We have proven our design countless times in a variety of venues.

Tyler


Yep what he said! :hail:

Tyler what is the wait like for tall spindles these days I know they have been fluig out the door but I was goig to wait until things normilised a bit (gen 1 F body)

[mrr1999]

Thanks Tyler. What is the difference in performance using the AFX spindles with the G mod vs without the G mod?

[GM Muscle]

i would talk to frank at prodigy. he has some good info on the coilover vs conventional battle.. i went with speedtech uppers and lowers. circle track 650lb springs with adjustable cups and qa1 shocks..

[dhutton]

What is the difference in performance using the AFX spindles with the G mod vs without the G mod?

The G mod is not recommended for use with the tall version of the AFX spindle.

Don

[Serpa69]

I did the Gulstrand mod with DSE uppers. I really cant justify the cost of ATS spindles. Maybe you all can. With the car lowered down the way it is there really is no noticeable bump steer. Again they are really nice to look at and a really nice product but I would race any one with a stock arm and a ATS tall spindle all day. There are many ways to skin a cat, I just preferred the tubular arm/gmod over a tall spindle. I am curious what the weight difference is between a stock spindle with aluminum hubs and a tall ATS spindle. Also I am sure that you have proven the quality of your product I have no doubt that it is great, but since you brought it up, I would like to see a head to head against a stock frame ATS setup vs. a DSE frame equipped car. Maybe one lap vs Blue bomber

I am kind of a bang for the buck Guy that buys parts as I can afford them. So if it doesnt have a big bang I dont buy it.

[redfire69]

I did DSE uppers and lowers with Gulstrand Mod(Thought they looked cool and I like the bushings) Stock spindles Timken bearings (my car does not got 200MPH so I don’t care about sealed corvette bearings really, what the is the point of ATS spindles???? a ton of money) C5 brakes with a speed tech bracket kit and a QA1 coilover I have adjusted them several times (very easy) mostly because the springs have settled. I think the car works great I do not have half the money most people do on these sites. Honestly if I was going to dump any more money than what I have currently, I would have purchased a total after market frame/suspension set up. I go to several open track days and the only thing I do is set the tire pressure and turn up the compression and rebound knobs and get to work. That is just my two cents. I will post a picture of the tire at full lock so you can see how much camber you get with this set up. It blew my mind when I saw it after the changes. It also made a big improvement in how much confidence I have with the car now.

Any issues installing the QA1 coilovers with the DSE upper and lowers? I like the idea of coilovers with DSEs on a stock SF w/out cutting it up.

[Serpa69]

The only issue I had was the adjustment on the springs. It is not hard, but you really should spend the 25 bucks and get the roller bearings. Other than that I really like the adjustability. There are so many adjustments that you can go from rock solid to Eldorado smooth with a turn of a knob.
I did a frame re weld and smooth job and I think it works pretty good. It works for me anyway

[mrr1999]

Thanks, Serpa. What made you use the DSE uppers over, say Speed tech, etc?

[Serpa69]

I held them in my hand and said "these are bad a$$"