PCV help?

[Zapan00]

Since getting my 67 camaro on the road, i've had some serious engine pressure issues resulting in valve cover gasket failure and oil leaking out all over the place.

Symptoms:

-doesn't leak a drop of oil at idle.

-Drive down the road at highway speeds (60 mph) 3500ish rpm get back home, open the hood, the dipstick is pushed out about 2 inches and oil spray is all over the hood above the dipstick opening

-I'm pretty sure the drivers side head gasket leaks, but again only after i drive at highway speeds.

-Oil used to pool up in the depressions in the intanke manifold from the valve covers, however, i repaced the valve cover gaskets and it no longer leaks there.

I did alot of research and bought all the stuff to install a PCV system on the engine which brings me to my current issue...

I have a holley 4160 oem# LIST-3310-2 3368. There is no large PCV fitting. there is the vacuum fitting for power assist brakes at the back of the carb...which, for whatever reason (please tell me if you know) is hooked up to a breather on the TH350 trans in the car atm. the other vacuum ports are capped but from my research are the timed spark vacuum source for vacuum advance (mine appears larger than the one on the holley instruction manual i downloaded from holley.com) and the EGR port. The entire choke system has been removed.

Is there any good place for me to hook up the PCV system?

The car runs great except for the loss of oil. I'd rather not spend the money on a new carb if possible.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

-Matt-
SGT USMC

[Formula400]

Hi!

The PCV should be hocked up between the carburettor and the intake if you do not have a breather installed. (Breather is like an air filter but it's installed where the oil cap normally resides)

I did the same mistake myself a few years back and after it was rerouted correctly it stop spilling it's life blood... (personally do not like the breathers so I never went in that direction)

[Zapan00]

I tried to set it up with a breather on the passenger side valve cover, the pcv valve in the drivers side valve cover, and the hose from the pcv valve to a port on the bottom of my air cleaner, but it does the same thing (still leaks and pushes dipstick out.)

Should i try using one of the other vacuum hookups on the carb, even though they aren't specifically for pcv?

-Matt-
SGT USMC

[Formula400]

I tried to set it up with a breather on the passenger side valve cover, the pcv valve in the drivers side valve cover, and the hose from the pcv valve to a port on the bottom of my air cleaner, but it does the same thing (still leaks and pushes dipstick out.)

Should i try using one of the other vacuum hookups on the carb, even though they aren't specifically for pcv?

-Matt-
SGT USMC

Hi!

Not that I'm an expert but I'd say no... it's better to install a T connection to the power brake assistant port on the carb and install the PCV connection to that I'd say. (It's not optimal but it's better than a breather I've heard)

Or you could install a vacuum pump for the power brake assistant and only have the PCV/tranny install in the carb. (More work though)

Have you cheched that the PCV valve is operational? (At least on a Pontiac engines it requires a set amount of pressure before opening up, assuming you have a PCV valve)

PCV to the air cleaner was dead wrong on my Pontiac Engine but I'm not 100% sure how it is on your engine. (I'm guessing that if you have a PCV valve you will require a set amount of vacuum to get it to open so if you only have it on the air cleaner it will never open up)

I've seen spacers with added vacuum ports. (Factory original spacers)

The cheapest way is to get a T piece or two and hock them all up to the same larg vacuum port on the carb. (Looks ugly but at least you will find out if it will work)

[Zapan00]

I'll try the T junction with the brake power assist. Thank's for the suggestion, not sure why I didn't think about it myself. :)

-Matt-
SGT USMC

[olds]

I'll try the T junction with the brake power assist. Thank's for the suggestion, not sure why I didn't think about it myself. :)

-Matt-
SGT USMC


No power brake vacuum should ever have a T junction. It's one of the only accessories that needs full manifold vacuum.

If it's connected to breather and vacuum from the trans, then you need to use a single vacuum port for the power brakes and another separate vac. port for the trans. You don't need a breather on the trans vacuum either. If you've ran out of ports on the carb, install a fitting in one of the air/vacuum ports of your intake manifold

The 4160 has a few different designs, but yours sounds like it has two large ports and a smaller vac. advance port. If that's the case, the larger port at the front next to the smaller dist. vac. port is the PCV vacuum. The larger port at the back is the power brake booster.

Some 4160 models (for cars w/out power brakes) have two ports - one at the back for PCV and one smaller one at the front for vac. advance or accessories

PCV rids fumes from the crankcase, EGR does the same for exhaust. You don't need any emissions regulation on that car... but DO need PCV or your engine will be building pressure like mad. A few problems you listed sound directly related to not having a PCV valve

It sucks that 10$ could've been saving you headache for a while

[wedged]

PCV rids fumes from the crankcase, EGR does the same for exhaust.

EGR does not "rid fumes". It reduces combustion temps to reduce the emission of oxides of nitrogen, aka NOx.

[olds]

EGR does not "rid fumes". It reduces combustion temps to reduce the emission of oxides of nitrogen, aka NOx.

Yes it does, it recycles gases or fumes, what word you give it matters less.

[GregWeld]

I have a 427 cubic inch small block -- and only a breather in one valve cover... I've run the living crap out of it - including 6000 rpm redline run in overdrive... and only ever get just a drop or two out of the breather from the hot oil fumes... but NEVER a dipstick blown out of the tube...

Sounds to me like something else is going on... I'd be doing a leak down test on that motor...

While I totally agree that it should have a PCV installed into the base of the carb or directly to the intake manifold ----- that sounds to me like really excessive crankcase pressure.

[wedged]

ah, bliss.... you just have to love it.

[olds]

ah, bliss.... you just have to love it.

Is that directed toward me?? look guy, I'm not the one who thought an EGR valve is directly related to exhaust temperatures. It's a friggin valve.

And yes, if there is no PCV valve on an engine that should have one, it will have all kinds of hard running symptoms. But don't take my word for it cuz I'm young :goofy:

[wedged]

Check into it and you'll see that it's not what "I think" EGR is for, but what it actually is for.

[olds]

Check into it and you'll see that it's not what "I think" EGR is for, but what it actually is for.

Okay, just give it up are you serious? It recirculates exhaust gases. It has no control over temperature whatsoever, that is the result of having the valve :wow:

[GregWeld]

FIGHT!

LOL

The whole thread wasn't about EGR -- it's about PCV and it's use or lack thereof...

Now you two go back to your rooms and don't come out until you can be nice!!
:willy:

[BritishGreen68]

Check into it and you'll see that it's not what "I think" EGR is for, but what it actually is for.
5 seconds on Google----
The EGR valve helps your car more efficiently and completely burn fuel by recirculating a portion of your exhaust and running it through the combustion process again. This results in a cooler, more complete burn of the fuel which decreases you car's noxious emissions by prohibiting the formation of some harmful gases.
The EGR valve, or Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve, is a vacuum controlled valve which allows a specific amount of your exhaust back into the intake manifold. This exhaust mixes with the intake air and actually cools the combustion process. Cooler is always better inside your engine. The exhaust your EGR valve recirculates also prevents the formation of Nitrogen related gases. These are referred to as NOX emissions, and are a common cause for failing emissions testing. Unfortunately, your EGR valve can get stuck, causing NOX gases to build up. You'll know if your EGR valve is stuck or malfunctioning because your car will experience symptoms like rough idle and bucking on accelertaion.

[GregWeld]

Okay, just give it up are you serious? It recirculates exhaust gases. It has no control over temperature whatsoever, that is the result of having the valve :wow:

@ OLDS

I think you needed to do a bit of research on the subject BEFORE starting a cat fight... LOL

I love stuff like this - because it causes me to go out and RESEARCH the subject... to my surprise (NOT!) I usually learn something in the process.

[olds]

okay, then this is directed toward all of you because I'm guessing you don't understand how chemistry or physics work

Let me introduce or refresh a new concept to you all. You can boil water without heat, you use pressure. The two are directly related but not interchangeable.

Now, if you have a valve that controls vacuum - pressure - of exhaust gasses you are not varying temperature in any way. When the valve opens as more fuel is being put into the engine (and coming out), the pressure of exhaust gases decreases and it has a similar effect as lowering temp. BUT there is no temperature regulation or change.

It has NO direct effect on exhaust gas temperatures. There is no possible way that a vacuum which controls pressures can be regulated by temperature. Because the properties are directly related, it has the same effect and it's easier for people who can't explain it to say --- oh it lowers exhaust temperatures.

So before you all start saying I don't know my stuff, you better think about it for a while.

[GregWeld]

okay, then this is directed toward all of you because I'm guessing you don't understand how chemistry or physics work

Let me introduce or refresh a new concept to you all. You can boil water without heat, you use pressure. The two are directly related but not interchangeable.

Now, if you have a valve that controls vacuum - pressure - of exhaust gasses you are not varying temperature in any way. When the valve opens as more fuel is being put into the engine (and coming out), the pressure of exhaust gases decreases and it has a similar effect as lowering temp. BUT there is no temperature regulation or change.

It has NO direct effect on exhaust gas temperatures. There is no possible way that a vacuum which controls pressures can be regulated by temperature. Because the properties are directly related, it has the same effect and it's easier for people who can't explain it to say --- oh it lowers exhaust temperatures.

So before you all start saying I don't know my stuff, you better think about it for a while.

@ Olds

Cut and pasted this from an article in EGR systems... there is much more detail about the systems for later vehicles etc - but for now - this states quite clearly what the EGR system does... regardless of whether or not the valve itself operates by vacuum doesn't really matter for purposes of this "argument":

Understanding Exhaust Gas Recirculation Systems

Posted 11/5/1997
By Henry Guzman
Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems were introduced in the early '70s to reduce an exhaust emission that was not being cleaned by the other smog controls. Oxides of nitrogen (NOx) are formed when temperatures in the combustion chamber get too hot. At 2500 degrees Fahrenheit or hotter, the nitrogen and oxygen in the combustion chamber can chemically combine to form nitrous oxides, which, when combined with hydrocarbons (HCs) and the presence of sunlight, produces an ugly haze in our skies known commonly as smog.

How to reduce NOx NOx formation can be reduced by:

Enriching the air fuel (A/F) mixture to reduce combustion temperatures. However, this increases HC and carbon monoxide (CO) emissions.
Lowering the compression ratio and retarding ignition timing; but this leads to reduced performance and fuel economy.
Recirculating some exhaust gases.
How EGR systems work The EGR valve recirculates exhaust into the intake stream. Exhaust gases have already combusted, so they do not burn again when they are recirculated. These gases displace some of the normal intake charge. This chemically slows and cools the combustion process by several hundred degrees, thus reducing NOx formation.

The design challenge The EGR system of today must precisely control the flow of recirculated exhaust. Too much flow will retard engine performance and cause a hesitation on acceleration. Too little flow will increase NOx and cause engine ping. A well-designed system will actually increase engine performance and economy. Why? As the combustion chamber temperature is reduced, engine detonation potential is also reduced.

[olds]

regardless of whether or not the valve itself operates by vacuum doesn't really matter for purposes of this "argument":

How EGR systems work The EGR valve recirculates exhaust into the intake stream. Exhaust gases have already combusted, so they do not burn again when they are recirculated. These gases displace some of the normal intake charge. This chemically slows and cools the combustion process by several hundred degrees, thus reducing NOx formation.
.

Okay, I've been trying to tell you it doesn't reduce exhaust temp. And for the last time tell me how this reduces exhaust gas temperatures?

Here's what you can do if you don't believe me, take a nice high dollar probe and stick it in your exhaust pipe, you can even use a fitting if you like. Take the temperature when the EGR valve is closed, the exhaust will be temp A.

Take the reading when the EGR valve is open, it will be temp A.

Recirculating gases and reducing pressure out your exhaust does not cool it in any way.

[GregWeld]

Okay, I've been trying to tell you it doesn't reduce exhaust temp. And for the last time tell me how this reduces exhaust gas temperatures?

Here's what you can do if you don't believe me, take a nice high dollar probe and stick it in your exhaust pipe, you can even use a fitting if you like. Take the temperature when the EGR valve is closed, the exhaust will be temp A.

Take the reading when the EGR valve is open, it will be temp A.

Recirculating gases and reducing pressure out your exhaust does not cool it in any way.

@Olds --

Let's try this one last time... because EVERYTHING I read about EGR systems say the same thing - they are present in diesel and gasoline engines because THEY REDUCE TEMPERATURES... Whether you choose to believe it or not matters little to me. I never knew what they were for until this thread started - and you started to argue about it. So... like I always do... I went out and researched what this system does.... and I learned a couple of things. #1 is that this system is in place to REDUCE TEMPERATURE... #2 is that, as usual, I never trust what anyone blindly states on the internet - and especially in a forum... because many people just think they know - and often times they're just plain wrong.

So here's how the EGR system reduces temperatures :

Exhaust gas recirculation

In internal combustion engines, exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) is a nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions reduction technique used in most petrol/gasoline and diesel engines.
EGR works by recirculating a portion of an engine's exhaust gas back to the engine cylinders. Intermixing the incoming air with recirculated exhaust gas dilutes the mix with inert gas, lowering the adiabatic flame temperature and (in diesel engines) reducing the amount of excess oxygen. The exhaust gas also increases the specific heat capacity of the mix, lowering the peak combustion temperature. Because NOx formation progresses much faster at high temperatures, EGR serves to limit the generation of NOx. NOx is primarily formed when a mix of nitrogen and oxygen is subjected to high temperatures.

So I think that TEMPERATURE REDUCTION is mentioned TWICE in just this one description of it's function. Vacuum isn't... that seems to be just a controller function and varies widely depending on the system.

Class is over on this one. :rofl:

[olds]

Greg weld -

As I was saying, and you haven't answered and never will because you found 'temperature' and 'egr' in the same sentence and blew a load, that an EGR valve lowers temp of exhaust

The amount of energy used in combustion is determined by your ignition system. That doesn't change with the opening of a valve or the amount of air/fuel ratios that are given to spark. If there is no change in E input, the exhaust gases are the same temperature as before.


Let me give you the reason why I started getting on to all you:

I'm not the one who thought an EGR valve is directly related to exhaust temperatures.

As I've tried to explain and you simply can't understand no matter how much you google, cuz you won't stop and think...

there is no effect on the temp of exhaust gases with or without an EGR valve.


You can wrap your exhaust in dry ice and intercool it for all I care and you'll still have the same emissions.

Bunch of immature idiots on here that cant think for themselves, later. doors don't hit me in the ass

[wedged]

Class is over on this one. :rofl:


It certainly is. I just realized how much money I wasted on school, the time wasted of having 20+ years of experience, having been a NYS emissions inspector, the time & effort spent to become an ASE Master Tech with Advanced Engine Performance Specialist certification... only to find out that the SAE, all of the automobile manufacturers and countless scientists around the world are all wrong or have been lying to us...

Gregweld- I'm not sure if it is still in print, but there's a really good,(but apparently fictional) book about internal combustion engines you might want to try to find. It's called Internal Combustion Engines and Air Pollution by Edward F. Obert. It's kind of old and very technical, but I occasionally grab it out of the closet and read portions of it when my mind wanders.

[GregWeld]

Greg weld -

As I was saying, and you haven't answered and never will because you found 'temperature' and 'egr' in the same sentence and blew a load, that an EGR valve lowers temp of exhaust

The amount of energy used in combustion is determined by your ignition system. That doesn't change with the opening of a valve or the amount of air/fuel ratios that are given to spark. If there is no change in E input, the exhaust gases are the same temperature as before.


Let me give you the reason why I started getting on to all you:



As I've tried to explain and you simply can't understand no matter how much you google, cuz you won't stop and think...

there is no effect on the temp of exhaust gases with or without an EGR valve.


You can wrap your exhaust in dry ice and intercool it for all I care and you'll still have the same emissions.

Bunch of immature idiots on here that cant think for themselves, later. doors don't hit me in the ass


@ OLDS

Your valve is stuck in the closed position... and that just can't possibly have a good outcome.

EEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
:cheers:

[Y-TRY]

I'm kinda getting in on this late, and only read the thread hoping to get an answer to the original PCV question but...

It sure looks like the basis of olds' argument is the idea that 'combustion temps' and 'exhaust temps' are different and completely independent of the other. Is that what you are saying olds? I absolutely disagree with that claim.

gregweld has provided documentation that combustion temps are lowered through the introduction of recirculated exhaust gasses, via the EGR valve.

A lean mixture=high combustion temps= high exhaust temps. The opposite is certainly true. The recirculated exhaust has the effect of fattening the mixture without introducing more fuel. Rich mix= cooler combustion temps= cooler exhaust gas. I'm just wondering where that's losing anyone.

[BritishGreen68]

I tried to set it up with a breather on the passenger side valve cover, the pcv valve in the drivers side valve cover, and the hose from the pcv valve to a port on the bottom of my air cleaner, but it does the same thing (still leaks and pushes dipstick out.)

Should i try using one of the other vacuum hookups on the carb, even though they aren't specifically for pcv?

-Matt-
SGT USMC
If you have a breather on the valve cover of any kind that should be enough to not push out a dipstick and have oil spray everywhere, that would be what would happen with no breather at all and a basically sealed up engine. I have ran numerous small blocks with breathers or one valve cover, and pcv on the other and had no issues. I have had a little bit of oil come out of breathers before but barely any, and no where near what your describing. I believe you have bigger issues at hand.

[GregWeld]

@ NotNew

This is what I said earlier in this thread... that there must be something else going on here... to have that much 'blow by' to lift the dipstick!

I'd be doing a leak down test on that motor before I did another thing to it...

I've run some pretty potent motors in my day - big and small blocks - and NEVER had that kind of crankcase pressure...

My 427 cubic inch small block will load up the filling in the breather and eventually drip a drop or two of oil on the valve cover... but we're talking about a motor with NO vacuum (8 stack EFI) and NO PCV. I have now (just yesterday as a matter of fact) run a catch can plumbed to a fitting in the fuel pump block off plate... so hopefully that will take the bottom end pulses and keep the breather from loading up with oil fumes. The problem with having no piston / skirt - and a real tight ring pack... I think the compression height of the pistons are 1.100 so there's just not much there to control 'oil'. BUT even at 7000 rpm's -- I've never blown oil out a gasket or lifted the dipstick!!

[BritishGreen68]

@ NotNew

This is what I said earlier in this thread... that there must be something else going on here... to have that much 'blow by' to lift the dipstick!

I'd be doing a leak down test on that motor before I did another thing to it...

I've run some pretty potent motors in my day - big and small blocks - and NEVER had that kind of crankcase pressure...

My 427 cubic inch small block will load up the filling in the breather and eventually drip a drop or two of oil on the valve cover... but we're talking about a motor with NO vacuum (8 stack EFI) and NO PCV. I have now (just yesterday as a matter of fact) run a catch can plumbed to a fitting in the fuel pump block off plate... so hopefully that will take the bottom end pulses and keep the breather from loading up with oil fumes. The problem with having no piston / skirt - and a real tight ring pack... I think the compression height of the pistons are 1.100 so there's just not much there to control 'oil'. BUT even at 7000 rpm's -- I've never blown oil out a gasket or lifted the dipstick!!
Damn you must run like 8 egr valves on that thing?!?!? lol J/K.. i'm building my 408 small block right now and it has very short piston skirts and i have been planning some sort of breather setup for it because i know it will need a good one.. I like the fuel pump block off to a catch can idea, never thought of that. I run an electric fuel pump too..

[GregWeld]

Damn you must run like 8 egr valves on that thing?!?!? lol J/K.. i'm building my 408 small block right now and it has very short piston skirts and i have been planning some sort of breather setup for it because i know it will need a good one.. I like the fuel pump block off to a catch can idea, never thought of that. I run an electric fuel pump too..



@NotNew

YES!! I do run multiple EGR valves -- but they're not what you think they're for!! I run them just to use up the excess vacuum... since they're "just a valve" and they really don't do what they say they do... and frankly, I like really hot exhaust temps and making lots and lots of pollution.

Okay - seriously - I will de-stroke the 427 the next rebuild... and will use a hypereutectic piston rather than the forged. I know that on this website that would be "insane", but this is just in a street rod... and the oil control could use some improvement... and the sloppy pistons at cold start bug the hell out of me.

PS -- In the close up of the catch can - the 90* fitting on the line isn't done correctly - but used it just for mockup. The fitting stripped before I could get the POS to mate up... so had to take it off and polish up another one for final assembly. I just didn't want anyone thinking that I did that kind of work!! LOL I also oiled the breather after final assembly too! So let's not start a whole new thread about that... please.

[GregWeld]

@ NotNew

Forgot:

I tapped the block off plate with a 3/8" NPT tap - and got a 3/8" to -10 AN straight fitting... then used a -10 swivel 90 off that... I had to convert the Moroso can from a straight O ringed -12 to a straight O ringed 12 to -10 AN

I already had the -10 hose and 90's... and the hole for the pushrod in the block is only about 3/8's so I used that size to go by for the blow by (clever huh?). The -12 stuff is so big... and I couldn't see using that when the largest hole in the system for air (crankcase yuk) would be restricted by the dia of the pushrod hole. So far this seems to work really well.