MSC Results and Editorial (long)

[Steve Chryssos]

Editorial (long)

Back in the day, race cars and street cars were distinct and mutually exclusive. And the vehicle owners were equally different. For example, a race car dude would buy a set of custom BRC high or low silicon pistons with a 10cc dish or dome and a 1.395 pin location, while a street car enthusiast would buy a set of shelf stock TRW pistons and erroneously label them as 9.5:1's, or 12:1's. Racers called hot rodders "street squirrels" or "street strokes".

Times have changed. There exists a segment of the hot rod world that is technically savvy. It's people with an understanding of chassis dynamics and engine tuning. It's a segment that can hold it's own on a race track while still enjoying seat-time on the street. It's a segment that shares wide crossover with race car brands--be it brakes or safety equipment. That segment is called Pro-Touring.

Most people and businesses still don't get pro-touring. In their world, the 15" Cragar SS and Holley 600 cfm/tunnel ram combo still reigns supreme. But one company--Lane Automotive, Inc. and its division Motor State Distributing has the guts and the vision to step up and grab the brass ring that is the pro-touring market.

And when Lane Automotive steps up, they go big! There were fire engines and police vehicles blocking intersections for the cruise procession. As we approached our cruise destination, a police escort led the way. At Gingerman, Lane Automotive employed the services of the South Bend SCCA. Efficient scheduling ensured that all participants received ample track time. Timing and scoring went off without a hitch. The PA system worked and the announcer was freakin' hilarious. Spectators were kept abreast of results at all times.
The autocross was another example of logistical efficiency. Apparently, the SCCA people have done this sort of thing before. Ditto on Motor States in-house event registration and contingency planning.

We didn't do so bad ourselves. I have never EVER seen hot rods pushed to such extremes. For example, my right rear brake pad completely vaporized at Gingerman. It's just gone! There are dozens of war stories. Three engines expired--One of them a complete meltdown. Numerous cars exceeded their traction limits and "got all four wheels off". Performance limits were explored in a safe, controlled environment. Kyle Tucker would have been in the hunt except that a broken battery mount torpedoed his Shootout time. So mechanical failure came into play just like at any race. The Motor State Challenge looked, sounded, smelled and felt like a true race. There is no longer any doubt that these cars possess supercar performance. Zero doubt.

I volunteered as technical director to scratch a long standing itch. I wanted to engineer an event that encompasses the best features of all previous events. So the inaugural MSC combined a road course Shootout like the Optima Challenge with Goodguys autocross and a Run Thru The Hills atmosphere including a 60 mile cruise and barbecue. Car shows and hangouts were inevitable--in the paddock, at the cruise destination and all night long in the host hotel parking lot. Two classes, Touring and Time Trial, accommodated a variety of build types and driver skill levels.

And the inaugural MSC was super competitive. The margin of victory between 1st and 2nd place (all inclusive on 100 TW tires) was a mere .123 seconds. That's positively mind blowing! Not bad for a buncha "street strokes". (sic) Drama surrounding our 100 Tread Wear Tire Rule fizzed out. Boy am I glad. The fastest car driven by Ryan Matthews at DSE ran 300 TW BFG KDW's, the 2nd fastest car driven by Mark Stielow ran 220 TW Michelin PS2's and the 3rd place car driven by Jake Parrott at Jake's Rod Shop ran 100 TW Toyo R triple 8's. Enthusiasts were allowed to pick tires that made them feel safe and comfortable on track. That was the intention. Drivers like Ryan Matthews, Mark Stielow, Jake Parrott and David Pozzi can be fast even if they're driving Fred Flintstone's hot rod.

But the general consensus is that you did not need a competitive car or a ton of experience to thoroughly enjoy the Motor State Challenge. As event promotors, our primary goal is to inspire enthusiasts to finish cars and use them to their fullest potential. Get it done and drive it. That core philosophy is good for everyone--enthusiasts and vendors alike. Along the way, we are happy to enlighten anyone who thinks that pro-touring is soft or insignificant. Our cars do everything well.

Pictures and words cannot fully describe what we witnessed last weekend, but here it is: The Motor State Challenge represents a milestone in hot rod history where pro-touring cars aggressively competed and looked good doing it. Does that sound too strong? If you were there, you would agree. I can't say it any other way.

Here are the final standings:
Time Trial class standings are based on road course Shootout times plus fastest autocross times. Entrants were required to participate in the 60 mile cruise as well.
Touring class standings are based on participation in cruise and road course segments as well as timed results from the autocross. Vendors (aftermarket manufacturers and dealers) were excluded from receipt of trophies and awards as were event organizers and late model vehicles.

Special mention goes to Scott Wahlstrom and Chad Higdon from Lane Automotive, Inc. / Motor State (for their vision); Jeff Luckritz from the South Bend Region of the SCCA (for meeting our complex goals and putting up with me); Bill Howell (for starting all of this five years ago) and Baer Brakes (for keeping spare brake pads in their hotel room).
Thanks everyone
/Steevo
Twist Machine
http://web.me.com/streetfytr/iWeb/TwistMachineLLC/mscresults_files/MSCResultsp1.jpg
http://web.me.com/streetfytr/iWeb/TwistMachineLLC/mscresults_files/MSCResultsp2-1.jpg

[Steve1968LS2]

So our numbers were off and David Pozzi really came in second? (he was handed 3rd at the event)

Great event by the way.. count us in for covering it next year!

My only suggestion would be that you have an official "vendor class" so that the vendors/etc can get the credit they deserve.


One mistake though.. you have my best autocross time wrong. It was a 30.698.

[Steve1968LS2]

It should also be noted that the only reason Kyle Tucker is so low is that his battery came loose in the shoot-out and killed his time.. there should be a "hard luck" trophy for the vendors.

[Bow Tie 67]

I have Dave's trophy and visa versa.

Well I cant express how happy I am to actually place in such stiff competition. Steve next year you'll bring the right brake pads and I'll cure my clutch and full throttle issues. :unibrow:

[Steve Chryssos]

I have Dave's trophy and visa versa.

Well I cant express how happy I am to actually place in such stiff competition. Steve next year you'll bring the right brake pads and I'll cure my clutch and full throttle issues. :unibrow:

Will do. Yeah, These are official times. They were emailed to me by the SCCA folks after the event close.

Steve,
I'll fix your Auto-x times tonight or tomorrow. It's an excel file turned pdf file turned jpeg, so the process is lengthy.

I really want a vendor class, but it is difficult to nail down the gray area. Pro vs Joe is more accurate than vendor vs enthusiast. Some enthusiasts have access to special resources that yield an advantage. DSE, Twist, Air Ride, etc. are obviously all vendors, but some connected participants are less conspicuous. The class also needs to include event organizers to avoid conflict of interest. We should NOT, in my opinion, penalize anyone based on their driving experience except for paid professionals. If we can find a tactful, tasteful way to print up a Pro category guideline, it will happen.

[Steve1968LS2]

I have Dave's trophy and visa versa.

Well I cant express how happy I am to actually place in such stiff competition. Steve next year you'll bring the right brake pads and I'll cure my clutch and full throttle issues. :unibrow:

Your car is bad ass.. the fact that you could hang with the "high dollar" stuff in your budget car says a lot about your driving skills and your Camaro.

Working on the brakes and shocks already.. very happy with our sway bar choice, just have to tune now.

Rematch next year? ;)

[clill]

I think I have Matt Altamore's gift certificate for 3rd place. It looks like I finished 5th and not 3rd. It is somewhere in the car. When the car gets back here I can mail it to you Matt.

[Steve1968LS2]

I really want a vendor class, but it is difficult to nail down the gray area. Pro vs Joe is more accurate than vendor vs enthusiast. Some enthusiasts have access to special resources that yield an advantage. DSE, Twist, Air Ride, etc. are obviously all vendors, but some connected participants are less conspicuous. The class also needs to include event organizers to avoid conflict of interest. We should NOT, in my opinion, penalize anyone based on their driving experience except for paid professionals. If we can find a tactful, tasteful way to print up a Pro category guideline, it will happen.

I like the pro vs joe deal.. It would just be extra cool if companies like DSE, Jakes, and Roadster Shop had trophies to vie for as well.

Again, great event - count me in for next year (although I might have to borrow a car.. lol)

[Tom.A]

It's great that these events are growing and we all should be thankful for the time and money that vendors/people put forth. :thumbsup: It does inspire some us to get our junk going.


I really want a vendor class, but it is difficult to nail down the gray area. Pro vs Joe is more accurate than vendor vs enthusiast.

I agree this is hard to determine. I understand that dividing these things might make it more appealing for people to enter but I don't agree with that. This might spark debate but it's not my intention, rather just how I view it as an outsider. I say throw out all the Vendor, pro etc. out the window and bring your best to the track. Keep the class car guidelines and tire requirements and insert your driver if you choose so and go for it. If you loose go get better. If you win go get better again because somebody is coming for you. I look it at the list and I know if I was there with my car I would be at the bottom of the list... period. I also know that I would have had a huge grin. I would have left with a reference point on how I measure up and a future goal. If I can't beat a vendor/pro so what. And really to look further the top two non-vendor cars were piloted by guy's that are our leaders if you will (Perhaps a Pro Class?). I respect and admire both of them although I have only met Pozzi and not Mark. I would also think they both likely have Comp. Lic.'s ? Maybe I am wrong as I don't know for sure but my point is don't handicap them or the Vendors for that. I think if there was a mass turn out of cars for a pro touring event then maybe a divided class is more valid but for 30 cars let it all hang out. In the end we can all read between the lines and I sure that's how all the competitors look at anyway.

Sorry for the hi-jack. Keep up the great work :thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

I think I have Matt Altamore's gift certificate for 3rd place. It looks like I finished 5th and not 3rd. It is somewhere in the car. When the car gets back here I can mail it to you Matt.

I'm pretty sure Pozzi got the third place packet.. or are you talking about just the autocross?

Steveo,
Could you also include car #24 (actually #124) in your matrix. It was Yancy's 5th gen driven by Nick Licata. That way I have the data for the story. His best road course (shootout) was 1:42.770 and his best autocross was 31.127.

Thanks

[David Pozzi]

Matt,
Outstanding job! You drove so well!
Want to swap trophies??? You can keep the second place packet.
PM your address to me.
David

[clill]

I dunno. Bill said I placed 3rd and handed me a packet. I think it had a Baer gift certificate.

[JamesJ]

So the shootout is the road course part? How was this done? How many laps, Best lap used? Average of three?

[Steve1968LS2]

I dunno. Bill said I placed 3rd and handed me a packet. I think it had a Baer gift certificate.

Huh.. that's odd.

I have a pic of Matt getting the 2nd place overall trophy and of David getting third.

That must of been for the third place best autocross time (non vendor).

Anyways, I'm sure it will get all sorted out.

Great seeing you again at the event and that's one bad ass Camaro you have there. I reviewed the photoshoot and the pictures came out stunning, even the one with you in it. lol

[Steve1968LS2]

So the shootout is the road course part? How was this done? How many laps, Best lap used? Average of three?

In the morning all the cars made qualifying laps to try and get in the top 15. In the afternoon the top 15 each made three laps (or 7 minutes, not sure) and THAT best time counted. So, even if your shootout time was slower than your qualifying time that's what was used.

Then that best shootout time was added to your best autocross time and that gave the number to determine who the overall winner was.

[Vegas69]

Not really trying to get into the middle of this, but my opinion is that you should have an Owner class, Vendor class, and Professional driver class. If you're not the owner, you are automatically put in the pro class. I don't think any of us want to compete against Scott Pruett..etc as an owner.

[Steve1968LS2]

Not really trying to get into the middle of this, but my opinion is that you should have an Owner class, Vendor class, and Professional driver class. If you're not the owner, you are automatically put in the pro class. I don't think any of us want to compete against Scott Pruett..etc as an owner.

Let's just say the whole thing is complicated and let's agree that there's no way to make everyone happy.

Go look at any racing organization.. they have HUGE rule books for a reason. lol

If Dale Jr. shows up with HIS second gen and kicks ass is it because the car was best of because Dale Jr was driving?

If Dale is driving a slow car and I beat him in a better car does that make me a better driver than him?

I personally err on the side of making the event about the cars. We all want to see them pushed as hard as possible. This was the inagural event and I'm sure the rules will be tweaked and refined over time.

Let's worry less about awards and more about how much fun it was. I didn't see anyone "babying" thier cars, everyone was pretty much beating the snot out of them, both pros and joes...

[Tig Man]

All things are not created equal, Rules, drivers, tires. A lot of factors make up the whole package.

Mark

[Steve Chryssos]

Guys, please. This is not a Rules discussion thread. Too many cooks spoil the broth, so rules will not be decided in an open forum. That method never works. There is NO current plans for Pro vs Joe separation. Maybe down the line. But for now, we ran our cars hard, had some fun and kept track of times.

As for Charlie Lillard's 3rd place award. There's no confusion. Independent of the Time Trial and Touring class wins listed above, we handed out some additional gift certificates for best individual road course lap and best individual auto-x time. We did that so that more people could get awards.

For example, Dave Pozzi's combined time suffered because of his road course shootout performance. His road course shootout performance suffered because of brake problems. But he knocked it out of the park on the Auto-X with a sub 30 second run. So even though he didn't win the Time Trial class, he got a gift certificate for his auto-x result.

[Steve1968LS2]

Guys, please. This is not a Rules discussion thread. Too many cooks spoil the broth, so rules will not be decided in an open forum. That method never works. There is NO current plans for Pro vs Joe separation. Maybe down the line. But for now, we ran our cars hard, had some fun and kept track of times.

As for Charlie Lillard's 3rd place award. There's no confusion. Independent of the Time Trial and Touring class wins listed above, we handed out some additional gift certificates for best individual road course lap and best individual auto-x time. We did that so that more people could get awards.

For example, Dave Pozzi's combined time suffered because of his road course shootout performance. His road course shootout performance suffered because of brake problems. But he knocked it out of the park on the Auto-X with a sub 30 second run. So even though he didn't win the Time Trial class, he got a gift certificate for his auto-x result.

So Charlie got third place (non vendor) autocross? Cool...

hey, things don't always go as planned in racing... I would have been smarter for me not to drive in the finals and let the car be "fresh" for Pozzi.. but "smart" isn't always "fun" so I said screw that, I wanna drive! lol

[David Pozzi]

I'm glad Charlie is confused, that way I'm not the only one! :rofl:
I was so tired Sunday afternoon you could have handed me anything.
David

[Van B]

I've been stoked since I got home Sunday. I was not able to participate in Saturday's event due to some "teething pains" with the Camaro. I almost threw in the towel on Friday and didn't come. Boy am I glad I did!

I spent most of Saturday working out an overheating bug and replacing a broken throttle cable from Friday night. I was thrilled to see the Baer trailer at the event. Talking to Dutch with Baer and with Mark Stielow, got me on the road to solving a brake issue that I have had for too long. None of this would have happened if I had stayed home.

I decided I had enough brake to run the autocross on Sunday. Although my tune was a little rich, I got out and ran some mid 32's. Not bad for 1st weekend out with a new motor, basically no tune and marginal brake pressure.

I can't wait til next year's event so I can mix it up with you guys. I think I might have a little something for y'all. :cool:

I got a fair number of compliments on the car too, which I really needed to get my morale back up.

[Steve1968LS2]

I've been stoked since I got home Sunday. I was not able to participate in Saturday's event due to some "teething pains" with the Camaro. I almost threw in the towel on Friday and didn't come. Boy am I glad I did!

I spent most of Saturday working out an overheating bug and replacing a broken throttle cable from Friday night. I was thrilled to see the Baer trailer at the event. Talking to Dutch with Baer and with Mark Stielow, got me on the road to solving a brake issue that I have had for too long. None of this would have happened if I had stayed home.

I decided I had enough brake to run the autocross on Sunday. Although my tune was a little rich, I got out and ran some mid 32's. Not bad for 1st weekend out with a new motor, basically no tune and marginal brake pressure.

I can't wait til next year's event so I can mix it up with you guys. I think I might have a little something for y'all. :cool:

I got a fair number of compliments on the car too, which I really needed to get my morale back up.

Finish the damn car so we can shoot it!!!

lol.. love the car, and big props for fighting through and running it Sunday.

[Bow Tie 67]

I'm glad Charlie is confused, that way I'm not the only one! :rofl:
I was so tired Sunday afternoon you could have handed me anything.
David



Ditto, I had a blast and any award or prize was just icing on an already Very Sweet weekend.

Just so everyone knows, I'm going to try and work out personally delivering david's trophy during the Monterey Classic weekend. As far as gift certificates I have no idea what was what. I will pm you with what I have and let you pick what you need.


Jeff,

Let me know if your planning on attending any events in our area, I would love to tag along. Oh I will talk with my cousin on the 4th, he does track events on Mondays and has some visitor passes. I'll get details, but it sounds like they hit several different tracks.

[MarkM66]

Did both RS Chevelles run? I only see one listed. Was it the 70 or the 66?

[Bow Tie 67]

Only the 70 ran the 66 is for sale by its owner.

[Steve Chryssos]

I'm glad Charlie is confused, that way I'm not the only one! :rofl:
I was so tired Sunday afternoon you could have handed me anything.
David

Sorry to have made things confusing. Lane and the sponsors were just trying to give out as many awards as possible. The awards were:

The main awards
-Time Trial Class: 1st, 2nd, 3rd (results listed above)
-Touring Class: 1st, 2nd, 3rd (results listed above)

Then there were awards for:
-Fastest Auto-X run of the day: 1st, 2nd, 3rd (need to sift thru results)
-Fastest Road Course Lap of the day: 1st, 2nd, 3rd (need to sift thru results)
-Hard Luck Award: Jeff Van Buren
-Furthest Driven: Mike Holleman
-People's Choice Car: Jackass

All results exclude aftermarket manufacturers and event promotors at the request of Lane Automotive.

[Scott Wahlstrom]

Hey Guys,
Sorry if we got a couple of the trophies switched up. The certificates shouldn't be an issue, they were all pretty much for the same amounts, just different products. Sounds like you guys are getting things sorted out to exchange the hardware.
As Steevo said, we just tried to spread the awards and certificates around to as many participants as possible. Our goal was to make sure that everyone left with something even if it was a couple shirts and hats.
Things get a bit crazy there at the end of the day on Sunday and Steve was calculating his rear off trying to get all the numbers together. We'll talk with our SCCA guys and see if they can hook us up with a program that we can feed the numbers into for quicker results next year. Like someone said earlier, it's not so much about the awards as it is about the people. It was a great weekend full of fast cars and wonderful friends.
Jeff V., I have your Hard Luck award and certificates here that I will mail out to you ASAP. Sorry you had so much trouble over the weekend but we're glad you brought the car regardless. It's beautiful and you'll get it sorted out soon I'm sure.
Thanks again everyone for attending.

Scott Wahlstrom
Marketing Manager
Motor State Distributing
Lane Automotive
Allstar Performance Products

[Kendall Burleson]

Congrats to all you guys that show up that a big deal in racing(bicycle or Cars)If you placed good for you.what I see is the guys sitting on the side line watching are the ones RACING their LIPS and LIPS are like tires they get thin.Good Job on your week end fun.:hail: :hail: :hail:

[camcojb]

Hey Guys,
Sorry if we got a couple of the trophies switched up. The certificates shouldn't be an issue, they were all pretty much for the same amounts, just different products. Sounds like you guys are getting things sorted out to exchange the hardware.
As Steevo said, we just tried to spread the awards and certificates around to as many participants as possible. Our goal was to make sure that everyone left with something even if it was a couple shirts and hats.
Things get a bit crazy there at the end of the day on Sunday and Steve was calculating his rear off trying to get all the numbers together. We'll talk with our SCCA guys and see if they can hook us up with a program that we can feed the numbers into for quicker results next year. Like someone said earlier, it's not so much about the awards as it is about the people. It was a great weekend full of fast cars and wonderful friends.
Jeff V., I have your Hard Luck award and certificates here that I will mail out to you ASAP. Sorry you had so much trouble over the weekend but we're glad you brought the car regardless. It's beautiful and you'll get it sorted out soon I'm sure.
Thanks again everyone for attending.

Scott Wahlstrom
Marketing Manager
Motor State Distributing
Lane Automotive
Allstar Performance Products

thank you Scott! It was great touring your facility on Power Tour and meeting you at SEMA where the planning for this happened. All my friends who attended this event were very impressed by you guys.

Jody

[Van B]

Hey Guys,
Sorry if we got a couple of the trophies switched up. The certificates shouldn't be an issue, they were all pretty much for the same amounts, just different products. Sounds like you guys are getting things sorted out to exchange the hardware.
As Steevo said, we just tried to spread the awards and certificates around to as many participants as possible. Our goal was to make sure that everyone left with something even if it was a couple shirts and hats.
Things get a bit crazy there at the end of the day on Sunday and Steve was calculating his rear off trying to get all the numbers together. We'll talk with our SCCA guys and see if they can hook us up with a program that we can feed the numbers into for quicker results next year. Like someone said earlier, it's not so much about the awards as it is about the people. It was a great weekend full of fast cars and wonderful friends.
Jeff V., I have your Hard Luck award and certificates here that I will mail out to you ASAP. Sorry you had so much trouble over the weekend but we're glad you brought the car regardless. It's beautiful and you'll get it sorted out soon I'm sure.
Thanks again everyone for attending.

Scott Wahlstrom
Marketing Manager
Motor State Distributing
Lane Automotive
Allstar Performance Products


Thanks for the compliments. Like I said, I came knowing I had an overheating problem and a brake problem. I got the overheating fixed on Saturday and probably could have sourced a master cylinder of the correct bore size from you guys too, if I had been thinking.

I am tidying up some wiring and getting set to send it up to Wegner next week for tuning. Telly will take it from there and address a couple small things paint wise. The guys from Baer are working on a solution to my MC problem and I'll be good to go.

Like I said, the compliments and support from all you guys re-energized me. Thank you very much!

Scott, do you need my address? The hard luck award was really unexpected, but much appreciated.

[clill]

Thanks for the cleaning stuff and tie wraps....

[Van B]

I drank more of your beer than the tie wraps and spray shine were worth. :cheers:

[31 SONIC]

Hi guys, Chad Higdon here. The little scrawny guy from Lanes that was hanging around all weekend. First of all, I wanted to say thanks to all the vendors who helped pull this off, and to Steve for all the behind scenes help (he did alot more than most of you know). Secondly, thank you to all of you who participated in the event. It was a awesome turn out for a first year event, and we couldn't be more happy with the results.
Lastly, for the dirt. This event was two fold. First it was to get a bunch of speed craving, car loving people together to have a great weekend (which will hopefully turn into an annual gig, I'm pulling for it!) Also, it was to help promote business not just for us, but also thru our dealer network. I urge all of you to support your local speed shops and the dealers who you see year in and year out at these events. I know clicking a mouse and shopping the big mail order guys may often be easier and cheaper, but it comes down to supporting local businesses and the guys who come play with you. Many of the guys you hung out with this past weekend and you see at RTTTH's are wholesale dealers for us and can get you any parts we offer (which is over 400 brands) just as easy as they get them for their own cars and projects. So, to sum it up... If you need anything, give me a call. I can get you in touch with a dealer in your area, a dealer who supports this forum board or I can get you what you need if the other routes don't pan out. Or just call to say hi, I'll be at my desk possibly needing relief from a street rod guy who never drives his ride. LOL

Again, thanks for the great weekend everyone.
Chad Higdon
Motor State Distributing/Lane Automotive
Senior Sales Rep.
1-800-772-2678 ext 239

[XLexusTech]

Caveat 1.
I always look for the results a various events to see if it can help guide some of my decisions.

Caveat 2. I have never participated in an event like this and as an Ex drag racer will admit I dont understand some of it.

Here goes the question. Upon review of the data can one draw any conclisions?
Does the variations in tires and Horsepower make side by side comparisons Mute?

[Steve Chryssos]

Conclusions? No. Hypotheses? Sure. Nothing wrong with a little bench racin'. I'll give it a try since I spent more time looking and analyzing as event technical director than driving as a participant. I'll try to prioritize.
If you want to be competitive:
1) Experience: Driver experience is number one. Ryan Matthews, Mark Stielow, Jake Parrott, Dave Pozzi, Matt Altamore, Randy Bell, etc. These guys all have experience. And in many cases, experience could make up for horsepower. Aside from getting it right the first time, experienced drivers know how to properly compensate for oversteer, understeer, wheel lock, etc. If necessary, borrow the wife's car and go get some experience and schooling. If she asks why her car smells like burning rubber.....:rolleyes: Never mind that .010" difference in bumpsteer between brands--learn how to drive.

2) Power: Gingerman has two 1/4 mile straights plus another 900ft straight. So horsepower definitely plays a role. If you want to be top ten 400HP plus experience will get you there. If you want to be top doggie, 600HP helps.

3) Reliability and Tune: Unfortunately, words and pictures cannot describe how hard we beat on these cars. Hoover, Mulvey's high dollar 69, looked like it had driven thru the apocalypse when we unloaded it on Tuesday. Mad Max would be proud. As hot rodders, we tend to focus on choosing the most trick parts possible. The goodies are useless unless you spend time working out the bugs.

4) Suspension: Just scanning the results, you can see that all of the top cars thru, for example, the top ten second gap 1:35-1:45 (and then some) all have some type of link or arm type rear suspension. Four link, Torque Arm, 3 link, Truck Arm. There are a coupla cars that I'm unsure of, but leaf spring cars appear to rank beyond that 10 second range. That's an OBSERVATION. Would the Pozzis be competitive if they brought their leaf spring equipped 2nd gen? Sure. That's why I listed Driver Experience as number 1.

In addition, soft street setups (i.e. 350 lb front springs and skinny stabilizer bars) do not fall within a competitive range. Soft setups are for show cars. I think we will see our hobby move towards bigger springs as well as a better understanding of stabilizer (anti-roll) bars.

5) Tires: The tire rule was min 100 treadwear. The fastest overall time on the road was posted on BFG KDW's at 300 TW. Second fastest on Michelin PS2's at 220 TW. Third fastest on 100 TW Toyo R888. Dave Pozzi and Matt Altamore also ran R888's. Then we have more PS2's and KDW's. Ditto on the Auto-X. Pozzi ran fastest overall on R888's with Kyle Tucker posting the only other sub 30 second run on 300 TW KDW's. The margin between those two runs? Two hundredths of a second. That's .02 if you're mathematically challenged. Conclusion? Hypothesis? I made the rule. I defended it all weekend. Took some heat over it also. Suffice it to say that I'm biased in favor of this rule. Someone else can form a hypothesis.

[Vegas69]

Very impressive to win on 300 compounds. I have recently realized the advantages from 220 to 100 compounds and it's night and day.

[Steve Chryssos]

Very impressive to win on 300 compounds. I have recently realized the advantages from 220 to 100 compounds and it's night and day.

As a newbie, I feel that stickier tires are an asset. I felt much safer running around on R888's. My first impression on the R888's is that I could do no wrong. In hindsight, I now know that I could have pushed even harder.

For experienced drivers, sticky tires appear to have helped compensate for lack of power on the straights.

Aww, see? I'm drawing conclusions....

[XLexusTech]

Thanks Steve. So if you were trying to Monday morniing QB how would you weigh tires (100 vs 200 vs 300 ) aginst HP say 600 agains 450?

What I mean is the top 10 numbers look really close. The top Dog had 150 or more HP then everyone else but ran on harder tires.
Thanks for the educated guess :thumbsup:

[Steve1968LS2]

5) Tires: The tire rule was min 100 treadwear. The fastest overall time on the road was posted on BFG KDW's at 300 TW. Second fastest on Michelin PS2's at 220 TW. Third fastest on 100 TW Toyo R888. Dave Pozzi and Matt Altamore also ran R888's. Then we have more PS2's and KDW's. Ditto on the Auto-X. Pozzi ran fastest overall on R888's with Kyle Tucker posting the only other sub 30 second run on 300 TW KDW's. The margin between those two runs? Two hundredths of a second. That's .02 if you're mathematically challenged. Conclusion? Hypothesis? I made the rule. I defended it all weekend. Took some heat over it also. Suffice it to say that I'm biased in favor of this rule. Someone else can form a hypothesis.

Just an aside.. there's really no difference in the rubber of a PS2 and a KDW. I've been researching this for a story, interviews, drurometer testing, and they seem to be the same softness. From what I gather the 300 rating on a KDW is marketing deal. Still they are a lot harder than my 100 treadwear tires.

So, I will add one more conclusion to Steve's list. Suspension Tuning.. DSE is ran like a race team. When they enter the pits the cars are checked, adjusted and tweaked. They really know how to tune a suspension and it shows. You can have all the fancy parts in the world and they are useless if not set up the right way for how you're driving. Knowledge is power and DSE has a lot of it.

Same with Stielow, although to a less degree. But they ran the car at Gingerman before the event and figured out they needed new rear springs (so they changed them in a monsoon.. lol).

I personally learned that if I want the car fast in BOTH the roadcourse and the autocross then the car needs to be adjusted between the two events. I need to change rear bar rate and I need to adjust my shocks. Again, tuning is very important, to the point of being critical when you are talking seconds and tenths.

[Steve1968LS2]

Thanks Steve. So if you were trying to Monday morniing QB how would you weigh tires (100 vs 200 vs 300 ) aginst HP say 600 agains 450?

What I mean is the top 10 numbers look really close. The top Dog had 150 or more HP then everyone else but ran on harder tires.
Thanks for the educated guess :thumbsup:

I thought Stielow had the fastest time of the day? If so then he had the most HP out there and it showed in how fast he was at the end of the straights. JA also had the best brakes, BY FAR, or any car out there. That let them drive much deeper into the corners. Gingerman is a momentum track and the combination of kill brakes and crazy acceleration gave Jackass a big edge. Killer car that I would love to have in my garage.

[68protouring454]

Just an aside.. there's really no difference in the rubber of a PS2 and a KDW. I've been researching this for a story, interviews, drurometer testing, and they seem to be the same softness. From what I gather the 300 rating on a KDW is marketing deal. Still they are a lot harder than my 100 treadwear tires.

So, I will add one more conclusion to Steve's list. Suspension Tuning.. DSE is ran like a race team. When they enter the pits the cars are checked, adjusted and tweaked. They really know how to tune a suspension and it shows. You can have all the fancy parts in the world and they are useless if not set up the right way for how you're driving. Knowledge is power and DSE has a lot of it.

Same with Stielow, although to a less degree. But they ran the car at Gingerman before the event and figured out they needed new rear springs (so they changed them in a monsoon.. lol).

I personally learned that if I want the car fast in BOTH the roadcourse and the autocross then the car needs to be adjusted between the two events. I need to change rear bar rate and I need to adjust my shocks. Again, tuning is very important, to the point of being critical when you are talking seconds and tenths.
I did not change my set up at all from road course to autox other then a few psi, 2 to be exact. Not track bar adjustment, no shock adjustment, maybe that means my car would of been faster i am sure, but I ran a sub 31 time so it was good for not autoxing since last sept at rtth.

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks Steve. So if you were trying to Monday morniing QB how would you weigh tires (100 vs 200 vs 300 ) aginst HP say 600 agains 450?

What I mean is the top 10 numbers look really close. The top Dog had 150 or more HP then everyone else but ran on harder tires.
Thanks for the educated guess :thumbsup:

You can't. That perfect scenario of big power PLUS R-Compound tires PLUS experience did not materialize at the 2009 Motor State Classic. Could Jake Parrot have won with 150 more HP? Could Ryan Matthews or Mark Stielow have run a 1.33 on R-Compounds? Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

Furthermore, the posted numbers do not reflect mechanical maladies either. Could Kyle Tucker have won if his battery mount did not fail? Could David Pozzi have won if his brakes were not toasted? Kyle's best lap time was a 1.36, Pozzi's was a 1.39, so you can poo-poo the data, but the Shootout was a different deal. Drivers were really pushing their cars in a manner previously unseen in pro-touring. Both cars could have picked up big time. I think it's awesome that all of the participants respected the fact that the Shootout was the race. You don't win a race in warm up or qualifying. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

There are only three consistently recurring themes amongst the field:
1) Driver Experience
2) Driver Experience, and
3) Driver Experience

I, for one, am fresh out of excuses. My R888's are insanely awesome. My new Jake's Rod Shop Torque Arm is insanely awesome. Time to fix the driver.

[68protouring454]

I thought Stielow had the fastest time of the day? If so then he had the most HP out there and it showed in how fast he was at the end of the straights. JA also had the best brakes, BY FAR, or any car out there. That let them drive much deeper into the corners. Gingerman is a momentum track and the combination of kill brakes and crazy acceleration gave Jackass a big edge. Killer car that I would love to have in my garage.
It is a momentum track, but big brakes and 200 tread wear tires does not mean he could stop any better, yes he may be able to stop better, but he woul dneed to be on top of his game to go real deep and be able to modulate the braking to get down to entry speed. I would say it was harder for him to slow then say me on r888s. I have enough trouble scrubbing speed without lock up. its in part due to the hydraboost and instant pressure but i have been able to get comfortable with it, well other then that once time going into turn 1 lol,

[Steve1968LS2]

I did not change my set up at all from road course to autox other then a few psi, 2 to be exact. Not track bar adjustment, no shock adjustment, maybe that means my car would of been faster i am sure, but I ran a sub 31 time so it was good for not autoxing since last sept at rtth.

Me neither.. but your car is already well tuned. since you have hundreds of laps on it. You were also running a killer alignment.

The adjustment would have made you faster on the autox.. heck, trying to knock off a second is HARD on a 30-second course. lol

By the way, your car looked great out there..

[Stuart Adams]

Sounds like a great event. Hopefully it will continue and even a few more events will pop up over the years.

[Steve1968LS2]

It is a momentum track, but big brakes and 200 tread wear tires does not mean he could stop any better, yes he may be able to stop better, but he woul dneed to be on top of his game to go real deep and be able to modulate the braking to get down to entry speed. I would say it was harder for him to slow then say me on r888s. I have enough trouble scrubbing speed without lock up. its in part due to the hydraboost and instant pressure but i have been able to get comfortable with it, well other then that once time going into turn 1 lol,

Yes, he could out brake any car on that track. I drove the Jackass and the brakes were amazing. and they work better the hotter they get.

I would say Stielow was "one his game".. he knows the track and he knows the car.

I wish you had Rackpak data since a comparison would be interesting to his. Without that it's just my opinion but I would be willing to bet he broke later and was faster going in than any of us. He was hitting 111 mph at the end of the two big straights.

Those carbon ceramic brakes are just plain bad ass..

[Steve1968LS2]

Time to fix the driver.

Same here.. right now my car is better than I am.. need to work on that. lol

Still, I'm happy with how I did. I didn't baby the car around the track, in fact I was really hard on it. And I turned in pretty good auto-x times.

Now that I think of it that was the first time I had ever driven Penny on a road course...

I really needed to follow someone good (Ryan, Jake, Mark) around the track to at least see the line once.. I think that would have really helped.

[Steve Chryssos]

I thought Stielow had the fastest time of the day? If so then he had the most HP out there and it showed in how fast he was at the end of the straights. JA also had the best brakes, BY FAR, or any car out there. That let them drive much deeper into the corners. Gingerman is a momentum track and the combination of kill brakes and crazy acceleration gave Jackass a big edge. Killer car that I would love to have in my garage.

He did.

Uhh...Sorry to get snippy. As stewards of this hobby, you and I wouldn't want people to think that they need ZR1 brakes and big power to be fast, would we? Some folks might throw their hands up in defeat. Strap a newbie into Jackass and the lap times will, no doubt, suffer.

Build the best car that you can, get it done, and learn how to drive.

Experience makes up for a lot of mechanical deficiencies. Case in point: Matt Altamore. My new hero.

[Steve1968LS2]

He did.

Uhh...Sorry to get snippy. As stewards of this hobby, you and I wouldn't want people to think that they need ZR1 brakes and big power to be fast, would we? Some folks might throw their hands up in defeat. Strap a newbie into Jackass and the lap times will, no doubt, suffer.

Build the best car that you can, get it done, and learn how to drive.

Experience makes up for a lot of mechanical deficiencies. Case in point: Matt Altamore. My new hero.

No.. but if you want to be "the fastest" then exotic hardware paired with a good driver sure helps.

And you don't need to be the fastest to have fun. I would imagine that even the guys with the slower times had a blast.

Just go have fun and don't worry about trophies.

[Vegas69]

Just to stir the pot...:D I compared myself to a 91 ZR1 with A6's at my first and second event to see just how much better I got. I gained over 1.75 seconds on him from one event to the next. The first track was also better suited for me. Only changes......10mm less out back...20mm more up front....lighter wheels....r888'....probably a slightly better driver.

[David Pozzi]

What you need to do well:
experienced driver
sticky tires
horsepower
brakes
light weight
good suspension
good setup
proper gearing

The track:
2 short straights
2 long straights
Hard, straight braking zones at the ends of all 4 straights.
long sweepers with some bumps
can't see very far ahead, need to know the course well to properly position the car.

JA had the most HP or very close to the most, the DSE 2nd gen looked very strong too. JA had wider rubber, best brakes and very experienced driver who knows that track.
DSE cars were very well set up and strong running, well driven. Their 69 Camaro always seems to have a bit more understeer than the 2nd gen. I would expect them to do even better on softer rubber. Of all the cars there I was hungry for a chance to drive JA and the DSE 2nd gen.

I was quite impressed with Jake and his 69 Camaro, great job!
Matt got around the track well and I never did get over to take a look at what he's got "under the hood"

The timers showed who had the best car/driver combo that day. We can speculate all we want but it's just guessing. I think it's a safe bet the DSE Camaro and JA would go even faster on stickier rubber. Jake would improve with more laps, Penny needed more shock & spring tuning and better brakes, hp was good but lower gears would have helped put the rpm's more in the power band.
I wouldn't count leaf springs out totally, but who really knows? It would make handling the bumps in the sweepers tougher, but by how much in time?
David

[68protouring454]

i wish i had a racepak on as well, one will be ordered, where can i get the best deal on one steve?
i wish we knew, i am betting to say that i went as deep as anyone, as i had r888s and i had to have more corner entry and exit speed then you guys in order to be fast, and keep up. This is where a momentum track is a plus to different hp cars, because if you can drive you can run similar times to bigger hp cars. If we were at lets says watkins glen, i bet stielow and ryan would of been 4-5 seconds faster then me, as there are a few really long straights there.
all in all it was a great time, and it will be fun to see what happens at the optima challenge.

[Steve1968LS2]

i wish i had a racepak on as well, one will be ordered, where can i get the best deal on one steve?
i wish we knew, i am betting to say that i went as deep as anyone, as i had r888s and i had to have more corner entry and exit speed then you guys in order to be fast, and keep up. This is where a momentum track is a plus to different hp cars, because if you can drive you can run similar times to bigger hp cars. If we were at lets says watkins glen, i bet stielow and ryan would of been 4-5 seconds faster then me, as there are a few really long straights there.
all in all it was a great time, and it will be fun to see what happens at the optima challenge.

Call me and I will see what I can do on the Racepac :)

I guess you had to experience the carbon/ceramic brakes on JA to understand what I was trying to say.. they were really quite amazing.

[68protouring454]

i hear ya steve, I bet they are unreal, as well they should be.
I will call ya.
jake

[Stielow]

What you need to do well:
experienced driver
sticky tires
horsepower
brakes
light weight
good suspension
good setup
proper gearing

David


In my opinion to do well at a road race track you need experience. I started autoX then I did road racing. I did it all wrong. If you want to become a good driver start in a well sorted low output car, you have to learn technique and momentum. I started road racing in my '69 Camaro back in 1993. I had guts and was not afraid to "send it". Through this process I developed great car control skills. Looking back I'm glad I didn't crash more often. Later in life I started to drive low powered vehicles. Developing those skills helped me with the faster stuff.

Attached is a data trace of a Corvette Z06 and a Solstice. One has 425 HP and one has 177 HP. If you look at the speed trace the cornering speeds are about the same.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq118/Stielow65/Picture1.png

When I do driver training at I force the guys to use the Solstice before we get them in the Corvettes. It also allows the guys to work there speed up and learn the line.

I use a DL-1 box to data log. http://www.race-technology.com/description_8_956.html

They are about $900 and are very easy to use.

If you can get a fast guy to give you a data trace then you can compare your speed to his. If you don't have a faster driver then look at the data for smoothness and corner speeds.

In general go fast in the fast places and slow in the slow places. It is all about courner exit speed. Learn to drive with the tach. You should know your speed at track out for each lap. Then work it up.

Next work on you braking points. Pick a point the work it down deeper into the corner.

Learn how to heal toe down shift. It is a lot of fun when you master it.

But just getting out on track is the first step..:thumbsup:

Mark

[James OLC]

Great advice!

[David Pozzi]

I had an opportunity to drive a friends spec Miata, it was loads of fun, you can work on your lines and braking points and see the results by the higher tach reading at the ends of the straights. You can really learn a lot driving them. It just sucks to get stuck behind a car with more power that can't corner as well.
David

[BonzoHansen]

Just an aside.. there's really no difference in the rubber of a PS2 and a KDW. I've been researching this for a story, interviews, drurometer testing, and they seem to be the same softness. From what I gather the 300 rating on a KDW is marketing deal. Still they are a lot harder than my 100 treadwear tires.

That is what they taught me at Michelin training in SC years ago. TW numbers are really only useful for comparison within a particular brand. Theoretical example (assuming same relative size/speed rating, etc.): I’d expect 300 TW Michelin to outlast a 200 TW Michelin and outlast a 400 TW off brand, but maybe not a Bridgestone with a 200 TW. When Michelin changed the TW rating on the MXV4s from like 120 to 320 (something like that) nothing else on the tire changed - they told us that. Granted my training was related to the replacement market and not race tires but I think you guys are saying the same thing applies to race tires. Damn, I just realized it was ~15 years ago and now I am depressed.


I ran into a guy at Carlisle this weekend that was at this event and he said it was just awesome. I don’t remember his name he had a really nice blue 1st gen (IIRC a 68) with lots of DSE stuff. Maybe I have a pic somewhere.

[YancyJohns]

As Rupp say's, "I didn't build a track car". But, I have to say, Tom McBride from Bowler Transmission drove the H*ll out of the Fairlane. The Fairlane has original stock steering, upgraded stock suspenion and street tires. With Tom's driving and the motor that Rupp built, it was good enough for 31.127 in the autocross. :hail: I wish we would have had a 3 point harness to get timed on the Gingerman track. It was a Great Event. It was good seeing every one....

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh26/yancyjohns/2ai1wqq.jpg

[OLDFLM]

When I do driver training at I force the guys to use the Solstice before we get them in the Corvettes. It also allows the guys to work there speed up and learn the line.
Mark

Where do I sign up!!!???