individual throttle bodies?

[legend]

in the 4 cylinder atmo world the most exotic induction setup appears to be the Individual Throttle Body

you also see them on sportsbikes, and in F1

http://image.importtuner.com/f/8438812/0801_impp_01_z+individual_throttle_bodies+itb_setu p.jpg

but you don't see many on V8s, except really high revving flat plane crank stuff like this

http://www.dpcars.net/atom/a178.jpg

M5s and ferrari 360s

has anyone here used them? and if so how do they compare to LS manifolds etc

[ironworks]

I have done a couple. Here is one.

[70rs]

GEEEZUS Rodger! Every time I see that pic I see more and more detail. I could park that in my livingroom and be happy to just stare at it.:drool:

[ironworks]

Yeah sometimes I think the worst thing I ever did was install a body on that chassis.

The IR intake setups are pretty common, especially on a V8. I have 4 in my shop currently.

Rodger

[70rs]

The IR intake is only a small part of it. It just adds to the whole package. Pure art as far as I'm concerned. The body was a killer piece in itself. Either one separate or together would look great right here in my living room!

[ironworks]

Thanks but my house is pretty small, So i would have to park them on my neglected lawn out front.

Thanks again. Kinsler makes the best set up their is.

Rodger

[Pantera EFI]

"Stacks", "ITB's", "Hillborns", are common names for an engines inlet system that has ONE runner for each cylinder AND a separate butterfly for each cylinder to meter the air flow.

Most of the common American systems have two problems:
1. The throttle shaft is steel (parallel to crankshaft) and binds the "butterflies" in the aluminum bores when the engine heat changes from hot to cold.
2. The airflow at Idle/Low Angle is VERY hard to equalize AND there is NO passage way in the casting to communicate the correct vacuum signal to the EMS.

Lance

[ironworks]

I have never tried the Pantera system but I can tell you the Kinsler unit has a unit to install an idle air stepper motor on the idle circuit. There are many brands on the market that do not. But we have that circuit on the truck which is why it idled so good out of the box on the dyno. The guys at Westech commented on the idle quality when we ran it, they were not excited about tuning an IR engine, because of that very fact.

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt248/ironworksspeed/shoppics12-29-2007015.jpg

You can see the 8 stainless lines and the stepper motor and airfilter in the manifold. We since relocated the stepper motor down near the oil pan.

[XcYZ]

Kurt used a Kinsler IR setup on an LS7 and used a BS3 computer.

http://www.autokraft.org/gallery/hayim/album/images/0275.jpg

http://www.autokraft.org/gallery/hayim/album/images/0267.jpg

http://www.autokraft.org/gallery/hayim/album/images/0266.jpg

[deuce_454]

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s295/deuce_454/IMG_0001.jpg

ls6 454, enderle 8x2.7 inch butterflies, tec3 cpu... dont have a more current pic.... and its in my 32 roadster ... (deuce_454)

the fuelrails are inboard between the banks and the alcohol lines are for the MAF if you were wondering... (im considdering not running the MAF and doing the load tabels based on TPS instead.... any input on this???)

[ironworks]

Hay Scott is that 16 injectors or just 8. It looks like a fuel rail under the carbon stacks.

[camcojb]

I ran a modded Hilborn setup on a small block, idled great, ran awesome.

http://camcojb.com/pastprojects/superformancecobra%20(7).jpg

Jody

[camcojb]

the fuelrails are inboard between the banks and the alcohol lines are for the MAF if you were wondering... (im considdering not running the MAF and doing the load tabels based on TPS instead.... any input on this???)


I'm assuming you meant map, not maf. I wouldn't run it in alpha-n (no map, just tps and rpm)...........some race guys do it, but you lose a ton of driveability and tuneability in my opinion. It will run, but no allowance for elevation, weather changes, temp changes, etc.

[GregWeld]

What's all this "stack" up to?? LOL

This is my 427 Dart Small block - with IMAGINE INJECTION... no IAC... fires up in less than two revolutions - Idles perfectly without any help from dead cold... instant throttle response - tons of torque... And besides - it's bitchin' and different!

[legend]

any thoughts on how the engines compare with a similarly specced motor on a plenam intake?

[deuce_454]

I'm assuming you meant map, not maf. I wouldn't run it in alpha-n (no map, just tps and rpm)...........some race guys do it, but you lose a ton of driveability and tuneability in my opinion. It will run, but no allowance for elevation, weather changes, temp changes, etc.

i did infact mean alpha-n... the reason i came up with the idea is that it seems that when the manifold heats up the two banks move ever so slightly in reference to one another... so it wont get even air distribution as the throttleshafts are conected.. one bank will close and one open slightly... i have also considdered drilling holse in the throttle blades to make the airflow changes arround idle less hysterically dependent on infinitesimal throttle angle changes....

and could i feed the IAC metered air thru the same lines as my MAP-sensor is reading?? perhaps add a vacuum reservoir to act as a "shock absorber" and give a more even MAP reading

[legend]

you may be better off with snail cam style linkage that opens the throttle proportionally less around the closed position.

propably be some bmw m5 parts that could be used

[GregWeld]

i did infact mean alpha-n... the reason i came up with the idea is that it seems that when the manifold heats up the two banks move ever so slightly in reference to one another... so it wont get even air distribution as the throttleshafts are conected.. one bank will close and one open slightly... i have also considdered drilling holse in the throttle blades to make the airflow changes arround idle less hysterically dependent on infinitesimal throttle angle changes....

and could i feed the IAC metered air thru the same lines as my MAP-sensor is reading?? perhaps add a vacuum reservoir to act as a "shock absorber" and give a more even MAP reading

Deuce -- You're way over thinking it... and before you've even installed it... or run the engine... I'm not flaming you here, please don't take my comments as 'mean' or ill intentioned.

Most of the systems out there have already taken throttle linkage movement and heat changes etc into consideration and have designed appropriate solutions.

Don't treat the throttle blades to your old skool carb fix - ala - drilling holes in them...

I was just down at WW Hot Rods listening to the 950 hp 8 stack system in the 32 Ford they built for a customer... it fired in nano seconds and didn't need so much as a blip of the throttle to fire and idle. In fact - Scott started it from outside the car by just reaching in and turning the key. Trust me when I tell ya - this motor was a beast!

One thing that these manifolds do really well -- the total elimination of REVERSION in the intake. This (I've been told) helps "eat" a big cam :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[GregWeld]

@ Deuce

Using a SMALL plenum for the vacuum is a requirement - not an option - otherwise you have nowhere to take the MAP reading. There is very very little vacuum signal from these types of intakes. I would advise you to use the plenum for ONLY the MAP signal. I was trying to remember - but think I could only get 4 or 5 inches of vacuum reading at my plenum. The pulse signal is soooooo weak without having a large common plenum of the dual plane / single plane intake....

To help tune the idle circuit -- in the efi maps -- you make smaller incremental
grids in the idle vacuum and rpm map.... then you can tune out the lumps easier with finer control... and also using the idle spark add or subtract.

IMHO, a guy that's GOOD with these ECU EFI systems can make anything/combo run like a swiss watch.

I just finished helping a buddy with his 8 stack (Imagine Injection) install - using Fast XFI on his 454 big block. It started the FIRST TIME - in about 3 rev's - once I tweaked the distributor timing to actually match the ECU - it purred... and there's nothing like the sound of air being gulped one cylinder at a time.

[camcojb]

i did infact mean alpha-n... the reason i came up with the idea is that it seems that when the manifold heats up the two banks move ever so slightly in reference to one another... so it wont get even air distribution as the throttleshafts are conected.. one bank will close and one open slightly... i have also considdered drilling holse in the throttle blades to make the airflow changes arround idle less hysterically dependent on infinitesimal throttle angle changes....

and could i feed the IAC metered air thru the same lines as my MAP-sensor is reading?? perhaps add a vacuum reservoir to act as a "shock absorber" and give a more even MAP reading

go speed density. For the map signal, you need a vacuum feed from each port, tied into a common "metering block" and then to the map sensor. You cannot take a vacuum signal from a single port, needs to be from all of them. You also don't want to share that vacuum source with the iac or anything else. They make nice remote mount iac's, but again they need their own separate lines to each port. Think of something like a port-injected nitrous system with the stainless hard lines going to each port in the intake and tieing together in a billet aluminum block. On mine, there were two lines to each port hidden underneath the manifold just like a hidden nitrous kit. Then after the block where they came together we put two bulkhead fittings in the rear of the intake (one for iac and one for map) so there was a connection from the top of the intake. Totally hidden, very clean looking and works perfect.

Jody

[legend]

@ Deuce

Using a SMALL plenum for the vacuum is a requirement - not an option - otherwise you have nowhere to take the MAP reading. There is very very little vacuum signal from these types of intakes. I would advise you to use the plenum for ONLY the MAP signal. I was trying to remember - but think I could only get 4 or 5 inches of vacuum reading at my plenum. The pulse signal is soooooo weak without having a large common plenum of the dual plane / single plane intake....

To help tune the idle circuit -- in the efi maps -- you make smaller incremental
grids in the idle vacuum and rpm map.... then you can tune out the lumps easier with finer control... and also using the idle spark add or subtract.

IMHO, a guy that's GOOD with these ECU EFI systems can make anything/combo run like a swiss watch.

I just finished helping a buddy with his 8 stack (Imagine Injection) install - using Fast XFI on his 454 big block. It started the FIRST TIME - in about 3 rev's - once I tweaked the distributor timing to actually match the ECU - it purred... and there's nothing like the sound of air being gulped one cylinder at a time.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/attachment.php4?attachmentid=17877&d=1244817924

wow any more info on that car :bow:

[GregWeld]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/attachment.php4?attachmentid=17877&d=1244817924

wow any more info on that car :bow:

@Legend

It's not my car - it's a buddies... so I hate to say too much about the car other than it's the straightest '56 I've ever seen.... and the paint is a mile deep... It has a cream leather interior... AND my arms nor hands showed any dirt after helping him with a bit of wiring and fuel lines...

EEEEEEEEEEHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!

:woot: