Art Morrison vs Detroit Speed.

[jcal87]

I want to buy a sub frame for my camaro but i am up in the air between Art Morrison and DSE so i figured i would ask everyone their thoughts.

[camaro2nv]

Speedtech was good enough for my front end. But with the rear Im going with Morrison. The Morrison rear just has too many positives.

[jcal87]

come on guys help me i'll be spending alot of money on this i need your opinions.

[dhutton]

come on guys help me i'll be spending alot of money on this i need your opinions.


I think the bottom line is get the one you think looks best. The performance of the two is pretty much a wash.

Don

[Steve1968LS2]

I want to buy a sub frame for my camaro but i am up in the air between Art Morrison and DSE so i figured i would ask everyone their thoughts.

Both are great choices.. we've tested cars with both and they consitently turn in our fastest times.

The DSE unit offers a more OEM look while the AME unit is C6 based. You can't go wrong either way so get what you like.

[BBC69Camaro]

If I had to do over again, I would have my eye on a Art Morrison full frame:
http://www.trakon.net/customs/build/build-14/9.jpg

[Vegas69]

The DSE sub is the ****. I'm not just saying that because I heard it was. I have it in my car. Fit and finish is outstanding and the handling and ride is on or beyond new sport cars. The DSE sub is tested and ran on the track all year long. You can't beat DSE support either. Frank said they both handle very similar. I'm just commenting on my experience with the frame and company.

[nvr2fst]

Isnt the DSE about 2 grand more? (not sure) What are you doing in the rear. Check with both companies to see if you can get a package price even if you purchase the rear parts later. Second before purchasing from whoever, HAVE THEM COMMIT to a lead time for shipment. One thing Im finding out in this market is the BS out there from when its coming (Not talking about the main source frame builders but vendors who sell there product)

Between the two I would agree with Rupp, its a preference choice and the aesthetics you like.
Dave

[fxstdale]

I went with AME over DSE due to the fact that its c6 based and a little lighter then DSE, and I also went with the AME triangulated 4bar rear at the same time so I chose the keep it all AME. both are awesome products and it is a personal choice, it took 2 weeks from the time I ordered to the time I recievied them. I cant say anything bad about my experience with AME thats for sure. my 2 cents anyways

[jcal87]

BBC69Camaro If I had to do over again, I would have my eye on a Art Morrison full frame:

Are you talking about the AME Max g frame?

[nvr2fst]

Are you talking about the AME Max g frame?

Yes he is.
Im not sure if its still for sale, but not to long ago Kenny Davis had one for sale. It was posted at a great price. Do a search.

[jcal87]

i read up on it doesn't seem to much more expensive on their website $7500 i think? but i haven't really seen to many threads on this set up so i don't know if its any good or not.

[nvr2fst]

i read up on it doesn't seem to much more expensive on their website $7500 i think? but i haven't really seen to many threads on this set up so i don't know if its any good or not.

Your missing something? Maybe you just priced out the frame. Add in the suspension components like there front clips have and the max G chassis frame all said and done is going to more like 11,000.00 or higher the last time I looked into them.

[jcal87]

I must be because its showing quite a bit of suspension accessories.Heres the link

http://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/17.pdf

[indebt69]

I ended up going with UC's, LC's, ATS spindles and the Gbar from Marcus at SC&C. That's front/rear suspension upgrades that should drastically help the car all for the price that's thousands less of just one subframe. Might check into that. Just ordered so don't have feedback yet.

[nvr2fst]

I must be because its showing quite a bit of suspension accessories.Heres the link

http://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/17.pdf

Wrong link, need to look at the musclecar link
http://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/18.pdf

[jcal87]

nvr2fst
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcal87 View Post
I must be because its showing quite a bit of suspension accessories.Heres the link

http://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/17.pdf
Wrong link, need to look at the musclecar link
http://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/18.pdf

Ha I see now.. Yeah that's nice but looks like i am gonna have to go subframe but man if i had that kinda cash it wouldn't be a bad deal.Hmmm maybe i need to save that thing is killer!

[BBC69Camaro]

Wrong link, need to look at the musclecar link
http://www.artmorrison.com/2006cat/18.pdf

Yeah that is the one.

[JamesJ]

Ha I see now.. Yeah that's nice but looks like i am gonna have to go subframe but man if i had that kinda cash it wouldn't be a bad deal.Hmmm maybe i need to save that thing is killer!

Remember that has the cost of the Front subframe, rear suspension, sub frame connectors all in one, so the cost in not that much more.

[Mkelcy]

Remember that has the cost of the Front subframe, rear suspension, sub frame connectors all in one, so the cost in not that much more.

Then add about 150 hours of shop time to fabricate and replace the floor of the car, fabricate body mounts etc. http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showpost.php4?p=212334&postcount=16

Cost is NOT a basis for going to a full frame under a first gen F-body.

[jcal87]

A lot of people are voting AME over DSE but no one is telling as to why they did. What are the pros and cons?

[mazspeed]

Those are 2 of the very best. Nothng else comes close under the 8k range. Nothing.

[jcal87]

I am thinking art morrison

[dhutton]

A lot of people are voting AME over DSE but no one is telling as to why they did. What are the pros and cons?

I chose the AME because for me it was more cost effective. I liked that I could use the stock F body LSx oil pan, stock LSx F body accessories and C5 brake calipers, abuttments and rotors. Those items added up to considerable savings for me.

The folks at Art Morrison are also great to deal with. But then again I have dealt with the folks at DSE and they were also great to deal with.

Don

[jcal87]

you said c5 but can you use c6 as well?

[skatinjay27]

you said c5 but can you use c6 as well?

yes ALL the c5 and c6 brakes bolt up the same way. be it plain 13"c5 stocks or 14"c6 zo6, hell i even believe the new zr1s brakes are the same too.

[Mkelcy]

Those are 2 of the very best. Nothng else comes close under the 8k range. Nothing.

http://www.jakesrodshop.com/products.html ?

[fesler]

you said c5 but can you use c6 as well?

If you are on a budget you can get your stock subframe to handle very nice with the right parts. Really no reason to spend all that coin unless you are going to race the car everyday. We do after market sub-frames and frames all the time when guys dont care about the money but we do just as many stock subs modified on $150K cars all day. just depends on what your looking for and if its just for looks you already made your mind up.

[70rs]

Chris,
Can the same statement be made about the second gen stock sub frames being made to handle really well too? My car will most likely never see the track more than once or twice. But I will drive the car hard at times so I want good handling and braking. What would you suggest for improvements on a stock frame? And what about the rear?
Sorry to hi jack the thread.
Eric

[skatinjay27]

Chris,
Can the same statement be made about the second gen stock sub frames being made to handle really well too? My car will most likely never see the track more than once or twice. But I will drive the car hard at times so I want good handling and braking. What would you suggest for improvements on a stock frame? And what about the rear?
Sorry to hi jack the thread.
Ericthe second gen stock subframe is leaps above the first gen...
it takes very little to make a 2nd gen handle great!
check out mary pozzi's car it got a stock subframe and leafsprings in the back and constantly runs faster or the same times as cars with aftermarket subframes, 4/3 link suspensions...

[Beegs]

Like asking: ...should I buy a Ferrari or Porsche.......:D

[GregWeld]

I think when you get into high dollar parts like these - you can't go wrong either way. I have a Jim Meyer Chassis under my Nomad - the frame rails where formed by.... Art Morrison. However, there IS a difference with these frames. Mine is all heim joints - so no rubber bushings... to do this over again I'd certainly use the AME frame. I'm building a 55 now (for a buddy) with AME chassis... it's a nice piece -- as is my JMR piece.

I say this - because you're asking for an opinion on which to buy - without a discussion about any (if any) differences that ALL the choices offer.

Some A arm manufactures use Del A Lum bushings - some use Urethane - tubular A arms versus - Corvette castings...

If I was making this choice I'd be on the phone with both of them with a list of questions like - what is the max wheel/tire size - what offsets - what bolt pattern - turning radius - what are your brake choices/sizes - roll bar choices - brake lines optional or std - type of steering (rack or?) - turning ratio options - what motor / header are you going to use - do these have any interference issues that are known to the mfg.... etc.

Just my 2 cents worth - which isn't worth a nickel

[Rhino]

My big reason for voting for the AME vs DSE is that the AME uses off the shelf C6 parts. A run to any Chevy dealer in the US will net you the majority of the components to rebuild the front suspension.

Having that piece of mind is worth a lot to me.

[Steve1968LS2]

the second gen stock subframe is leaps above the first gen...
it takes very little to make a 2nd gen handle great!
check out mary pozzi's car it got a stock subframe and leafsprings in the back and constantly runs faster or the same times as cars with aftermarket subframes, 4/3 link suspensions...

True, but not entirely...

Her car is nearly as fast or faster... with her driving.. lol

For example, my car beats her car if she is driving both. Driver skill plays a big part in all of this.

That said, a stock subframe can be made to be very good, but it does have limitations.

[GregWeld]

Just another thought on the choices available. I just went through this whole "frame choice" issue on my 37 Ford. There's about a dozen mfg's of frames for the 35 to 40 Ford (they use the same chassis). When you combine the frame mfg's AND INCLUDE all the different options - your choices are almost endless - and there's no end to the various combinations you can come up with. Just for giggles - here's the mfgs I spoke and emailed multiple times:

Pete and Jakes
TCI
Superior Glass Works
The Roadster Shop
Art Morrison
Progressive
Kugel
Roy Brizio

My point of all this -- is that in the end - after asking a zillion questions I applied the responses to what I was looking for. I was certain when I started out - that I wanted a triangulated 4 bar rear... I ended up with inboard mounted leaf springs. The reason - I want to just road trip this build... it has a HUGE trunk... the coil overs are great up front where the weight doesn't change - but in the back - the coil overs have a limited amount of travel... I want to be able to load up a toolbox - suitcases - wife (in front with me) - a full load of fuel - AND still have a good stance and nice ride. I HATE air bags - too many parts and pieces - they leak down - been there done that.... the leaf springs offered what I needed - over what I really wanted (in my mind). Mounting them inboard lowered the rear two more inches - C notching the frame rails made clearance - mounting them inboard made more tire width available - a speedway engineering sway bar was clean and tucked up out of the way... and I have clearance for exhaust and gas tank... The leaf spring rear would have been the very last thing I'd have ever considered ---- UNTIL I DISCUSSED all the pluses and minuses of every system. Since I'm not auto-crossing this car - a panhard bar etc really isn't important. I wanted a nice stable ride - spelled consistent - empty or loaded to the max... so I listened and settled on what would work for the application. I really didn't care about 'bragging rights' -- i.e., having the biggest, baddest, newest, most expensive, available.

Okay - I'm done... Whew!

Just trying to give you some food for thought....

[GregWeld]

Like asking: ...should I buy a Ferrari or Porsche.......:D

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TRUE!!

Endless hours of bench racing would never settle the question... and either choice is a good one!

[Vegas69]

http://www.detroitspeed.com/news_events/hydroforming.htm

I like the idea that the frame is made the same way it is for a C6 Corvette. I like cutting edge stuff.

[Stuart Adams]

After driving my Blue 69 with the DSE sub and 4 Link, I would never buy or own another one without their stuff. We can all argue about parts, and their are alot of nice parts available, I like the fact that DSE is constantly engineering new stuff for different makes and showing up at multiple events to test those parts. Also you can go to different locations across the country jump in the seat and go for a ride.

Its awesome that all these manufactureres are designing stuff for us. Could you imagine if you loved Yugo's, try and upgrade that and get your money out of it! LOL.

[Vegas69]

Not trying to piss anybody off here, but Stuart and I have actually logged a bunch of miles on our cars. There is alot of hear say going on here. I don't doubt that the Morrison frame is great, just don't see any posts from folks with real world experience behind the steering wheel. I would really like to see a shoot out between the two. DSE frame/Quadralink vs AME C6 frame/4/3 link There is no reason that can't be done at this point. Enough of this they are both great choices stuff.:D

[fxstdale]

I would really like to see a shoot out between the two. DSE frame/Quadralink vs AME C6 frame/4/3 link There is no reason that can't be done at this point. Enough of this they are both great choices stuff.:D

I would like to see that too, I would be willing to to offer my AME C6 tri 4 bar set up for someone to compare it with the DSE stuff. will be on the road in a month or so.

[Stuart Adams]

I would like to see that too, I would be willing to to offer my AME C6 tri 4 bar set up for someone to compare it with the DSE stuff. will be on the road in a month or so.

Look at the event list that DSE will be running their cars and go for it. That would be the easiest.

[Serpa69]

I like the sway bar and the header clearance that you get with the dse frame. Having seen these frames side by side there just isnt any competition in my mind. The frame rails the craftsmanship of the dse frame speaks for itself.

[jcal87]

So I emailed the 2 company's with some questions on pricing and what not and AME sent me back an auto reply and DSE actually took the time to write me back which means a lot to me as for as customer service goes especially if I am going to be spending that kind of money.Now my decision is back up in the air but now that AME decided to blow me off I'm leaning towards DSE.Does anyone know what the differences are in ride height,backspacing,and max tire wheel size, bolt pattern etc.

[Mkelcy]

So I emailed the 2 company's with some questions on pricing and what not and AME sent me back an auto reply and DSE actually took the time to write me back which means a lot to me as for as customer service goes especially if I am going to be spending that kind of money.Now my decision is back up in the air but now that AME decided to blow me off I'm leaning towards DSE.Does anyone know what the differences are in ride height,backspacing,and max tire wheel size, bolt pattern etc.

I'm not sure that the form of response to an e-mail inquiry is the best basis for this decision, but that's just me.

[jcal87]

Well from what i have gotten on here as far as quality goes there both good so the next thing after that to me would be price and customer service and AME is cheaper but DSE apparently in my case has better customer service but my decision is still on going.

[awr68]

Do you prefer the fabricated look of AME, or the more stock look of DSE?

[jcal87]

Really the look makes no difference to me as long as it rides good and drives well but if i had to choose a look most likely DSE.

[cluxford]

I have bought parts from both and have to say their customer service is both outstanding.

I would not let an auto email reply sway you either way.

I am in Australia and spending big $$ is always a risk as returns are an expensive proposition internationally, both companies went out of their way to make sure my purchases were smooth and accurate.

I'm guessing the best way to solve this one is to flip a coin....

best of out 3 :thumbsup:

[dhutton]

I have dealt with both and they both have excellent customer service. I can also tell you that I can send a PM to Matt the designer of the AME subframes and get an answer the same day. For me this kind of access is very valuable. I'm not sure you can do this with DSE.

Don

[69x22]

What pushed me to AME, is for that kind of money I wanted a high tech fabbed looking piece to go with all of the other high tech stuff on my car. (LS engine ProCharger 6 speed ETC). There is no doubt that the quality and performance is there on both frames. It's basically the question do you want a extremely slick factory look (DSE) or a high tech fabbed look (AME).

[Vegas69]

Really the look makes no difference to me as long as it rides good and drives well but if i had to choose a look most likely DSE.

You're going to have to make the decisioin. I wouldn't let a few bucks pursuade you. Call them both and place your order.

[70rs]

I've been following this thread and wanted to say thanks for all the good info.
Based on the reply to my question on the first page about the stock sub frame, I will be staying with the factiry unit with a few upgrades. Arms, shocks, brakes... I will weld up all the seams though.
I have a motor to build and am thinking the money is better spent there.
Thanks guys.:thumbsup:

[customcam]

Ring them up, emails fall through the system sometimes

http://lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=18489&highlight=matt+jones

[Mkelcy]

I have no dog in this fight, as I already have a different brand subframe, but I wanted to make a few observations:

DSE is hydroformed subframe, so it is the high tech subframe. Everyone else builds mandrel bent subframes.
I think people are using "high tech" to describe a look rather than the application of technology. The DSE frame is, I think, intended to imitate the look of the factory piece.

DSE also used C6 spindles on their subframe.Like DSE, the AME subframe uses C5/C6 uprights. The AME frame also uses C5/C6 upper and lower control arms. It looks like (but I can't tell for sure) DSE uses "one-off" proprietary upper and lower control arms, which may or may not be readily available if and when one needs to be replaced.

I don't see a splined sway bar on the AME subframe, and it looks very cool and well engineered on how DSE hid in the other crossmember.
AME recently announced a splined sway bar for their frames and subframes - http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=20667. It's also pretty easy to source a splined sway bar, pillow blocks and custom bent arms from places like http://www.1speedway.com, as I recently did for my subframe.

I can't tell from any pictures I've seen online, but it looks like the pillow blocks for the DSE splined sway bar are part of the subframe. Is that the case and, if so, what size is the sway bar - 1" or 1.25" or larger? If 1", that may limit your ability to tune the sway bar rate for more aggressive uses.

For example from the Speedway Engineering site, a 1" sway bar 36" long acting through a 12" arm has a maximum rate of 200 lbs for 5 degrees of twist. A 1.25" sway bar 36" long acting through a 12" arm has a minimum rate of 236 lbs for 5 degrees of twist up to a maximum rate of 488 lbs for 5 degrees of twist. The external pillow blocks for the AME frame allow for the use of their bar or (assuming it's a 1" bar, it actually looks like it might be larger) replacement with larger diameter, stouter bar.

So the questions I'd have are - can the DSE UCA/LCA be easily sourced following, for example, a collision, what size is the DSE sway bar, how is it mounted, and can it be easily tuned (by replacing the bar) for higher rates?

[Mkelcy]

Jeff: I'm not looking to get into a pissing match with you. You've had your say and I've had mine. I'll leave it at that.

[Vegas69]

Check with DSE but I talked to them about the sway bar quite a while ago. It's a pretty standard roundy round piece that you could easily buy some extra bars and play. It's really easy to swap out as well. I think the one that's in there is perfect so far. The pillow blocks are not part of the subframe and either are the bushings.

[Mkelcy]

Check with DSE but I talked to them about the sway bar quite a while ago. It's a pretty standard roundy round piece that you could easily buy some extra bars and play. It's really easy to swap out as well. I think the one that's in there is perfect so far. The pillow blocks are not part of the subframe and either are the bushings.

If you can go up to a 1.25" bar, and pillow blocks for the 1.25" bar fit inside the crossmember, that issue is completely negated.

[carbuff]

I am going through the same debate in my head for a project that I'm putting together right now... AME vs. DSE.

I don't think I've seen this issue mentioned yet, but I'm curious to hear from the owners of the DSE setup what they feel about this. It is my understanding that the DSE control arms don't allow you to adjust the coilover ride height without separating the control arm from the spindle. Do I understand this correctly? And if so, from an adjustment standpoint, do people consider this a concern?

I understand that once all is set up to your liking, this shouldn't be an issue any longer.

Appreciate any thoughts on this subject...

[Vegas69]

Absolutely a myth...I've adjusted mine more times than I care to think about.

[carbuff]

Thanx Todd... I know I've seen more than one person bring it up before, so is the problem that people don't know how to do it, or that special tools are required? When I first heard this, it became a big red flag to me, so debunking the myth (for me at least) would be great!

[Mkelcy]

Thanx Todd... I know I've seen more than one person bring it up before, so is the problem that people don't know how to do it, or that special tools are required? When I first heard this, it became a big red flag to me, so debunking the myth (for me at least) would be great!

The DSE coilover conversion for the stock subframe requires that you break a ball joint loose for adjustment. That may be the source of the confusion.

[CraigMorrison]

So I emailed the 2 company's with some questions on pricing and what not and AME sent me back an auto reply and DSE actually took the time to write me back which means a lot to me as for as customer service goes especially if I am going to be spending that kind of money.Now my decision is back up in the air but now that AME decided to blow me off I'm leaning towards DSE.Does anyone know what the differences are in ride height,backspacing,and max tire wheel size, bolt pattern etc.

Jcal- I am sorry that you felt that we blew you off. Could you please forward me (PM or e-mail me) the response that our sales staff sent to you. I would like to have a look at it so I can make the necessary changes with how our sales guys deal with e-mail responses. Thank you.

Kyle and I have joked about this and its the #1 question we get at shows. He gets guys with AME catalogs in hand asking why his is better and we get guys with the purple catalogs asking why ours is better. We both use the same rack, upright and suspension analysis program - geometry and driving feel/performance is going to be extremely close so it comes down to which brand you like the best and what "look" you like the best, hydroformed or fabbed. In the end either sub is going to give you an excellent ride and you are going to be very happy with your decision.

[GregWeld]

Well put Craig.... and I think that many of us have tried to say the same. When you get to this quality... you just can't go wrong with either choice. Both companies are pure class operations. There just is no wrong choice here.

[Stuart Adams]

Jcal- I am sorry that you felt that we blew you off. Could you please forward me (PM or e-mail me) the response that our sales staff sent to you. I would like to have a look at it so I can make the necessary changes with how our sales guys deal with e-mail responses. Thank you.

Kyle and I have joked about this and its the #1 question we get at shows. He gets guys with AME catalogs in hand asking why his is better and we get guys with the purple catalogs asking why ours is better. We both use the same rack, upright and suspension analysis program - geometry and driving feel/performance is going to be extremely close so it comes down to which brand you like the best and what "look" you like the best, hydroformed or fabbed. In the end either sub is going to give you an excellent ride and you are going to be very happy with your decision.

Thanks Craig, both companies are awesome and either product will be a great choice. Good discussion, call them and get the piece u want. :cheers:

[carbuff]

I have one more question on this topic for now if anyone knows...

What are the hub to hub widths on each setup? Without rotors or with? Just wondering how each compares to the stock width.

Thanx!

[JRouche]

Im partial. Guess we will be when the parts are under our car. So... For my opinion I bought a AM rear 4-link clip in 1995. It really was the only thing available, they were the leaders. Easy to follow, and improve, if there is room for improvement.

Lemme say, the frame rails they provide are STOUT!! Dunno if the frames have changed over the years. And what I bought was exactly what I ordered.

Now, a few years forward I decided to change the purpose of the car. Not so much pro-street anymore but more of a nice handling car for the street. Pro tour if that fits. But what was cool is I was able to keep alot of the AM products. And incorporating my stuff to the AM rear clip was painless... Helps when there is a solid platform to work from, and theirs is solid. I have dealt with the customer service a few times over the years. Its comparable to any after market manufactures customer service. Actually some stick out as being above the standard, Air Ride technologies is one.

So I can honestly give a nod to AM, they do provide a good product.. JR

And if yer interested here is a link to my revamp of the rear suspension...
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=20605

[GregWeld]

I have one more question on this topic for now if anyone knows...

What are the hub to hub widths on each setup? Without rotors or with? Just wondering how each compares to the stock width.

Thanx!

You better call the manufacturer for that one.... and I'm thinking they could vary a bit depending on brake choice... big azz Baer or humungus Wilwoods vs ordinary GM. My Wayne Due sub had C5 Vette calipers and big Baer rotors... but I can't remember what the track was - but it would take wider wheels than a stock piece because of the design.

[Silver69Camaro]

the second gen stock subframe is leaps above the first gen...
it takes very little to make a 2nd gen handle great!
check out mary pozzi's car it got a stock subframe and leafsprings in the back and constantly runs faster or the same times as cars with aftermarket subframes, 4/3 link suspensions...

I would think that would be because that's her personal car, and it's setup to the way she likes it. I have geometry specs for 2nd gens; frankly, the spindle is just too short. But that's not to say it can't handle well.

[Silver69Camaro]

I have one more question on this topic for now if anyone knows...

What are the hub to hub widths on each setup? Without rotors or with? Just wondering how each compares to the stock width.

Thanx!

If you're talking about first gens, our hub width is a bit over 60-1/2" using stock or Wilwood rotors. 60" is about factory for 67-69, somewhat depending on ride height (there's a fair amount of side scrub on those suspensions).

[MarkM66]

So eight pages later.... did you buy one?

[jcal87]

Not yet mark i have actaully been out of town on military orders to dallas fort worth for the last couple weeks.I havent had much time to look into but i have pretty much decided to go with art morrison due to price and stock corvette parts. but now that GM has gone bankrupt even that worries me.

[tyoneal]

To All:

Since two major after market sub frame choices have been discussed for him, can anyone with a stock subframe with Global West, UCA and LCA (I have been told that they were the best Control Arms on the Markets as far as Having the best characteristics built into them, for improved handling on a first generation F-Body), Stock Spindles, Bump steer adjusters, ATS Steering Box (The best Steering box), Hotchkis Front Sway Bar (Another one of the Better Item made), and the Wilwood 6 Piston 13 inch Brakes (Best Bang for the Buck for High Performing Brake Kits), Varishock/Penske or other good quality front shocks.

Also, what exactly is needed to be done to the stock sub frame to optimize it's performance. (Specify)

This option would be the least expensive choice of the three and possibly have only a negligible performance difference with the other two, one reason being that all the major parts hanging on the subframe are top quality.

Other than 20 mm or so tire width difference (Slightly greater than the width of two 9mm bullets) in which the tire will not rub against the body, frame, or steering components and still retain all of it's turning ability, and about 40 pounds or so of extra weight. (About two pizzas and 3 six packs a month) what do you really accomplish with an after market subframe? (Other than lightening your wallet a couple grand?)

The, "One Lap Camaro", from what I understand did a bang up job with a "Stock" subframe underneath it.

What is the real skinny on reason's NOT to go ahead and use the original Subframes other than what I have mentioned above. Surely a bit of weight, and an inch of tire isn't all there is between them other than looks?

Thanks,

Ty

[Mkelcy]

To All:

Since two major after market sub frame choices have been discussed for him, can anyone with a stock subframe with Global West, UCA and LCA (I have been told that they were the best Control Arms on the Markets as far as Having the best characteristics built into them, for improved handling on a first generation F-Body), Stock Spindles, Bump steer adjusters, ATS Steering Box (The best Steering box), Hotchkis Front Sway Bar (Another one of the Better Item made), and the Wilwood 6 Piston 13 inch Brakes (Best Bang for the Buck for High Performing Brake Kits), Varishock/Penske or other good quality front shocks.

Also, what exactly is needed to be done to the stock sub frame to optimize it's performance. (Specify)

This option would be the least expensive choice of the three and possibly have only a negligible performance difference with the other two, one reason being that all the major parts hanging on the subframe are top quality.

Other than 20 mm or so tire width difference (Slightly greater than the width of two 9mm bullets) in which the tire will not rub against the body, frame, or steering components and still retain all of it's turning ability, and about 40 pounds or so of extra weight. (About two pizzas and 3 six packs a month) what do you really accomplish with an after market subframe? (Other than lightening your wallet a couple grand?)

The, "One Lap Camaro", from what I understand did a bang up job with a "Stock" subframe underneath it.

What is the real skinny on reason's NOT to go ahead and use the original Subframes other than what I have mentioned above. Surely a bit of weight, and an inch of tire isn't all there is between them other than looks?

Thanks,

Ty

While I'm not sure I agree with your "best" parts list, until James and Steve agree that, say, David Pozzi can run the One Lap Camaro and Bad Penny on the same track, back to back, we'll not have a very good answer.

One Lap - Stock subframe, rewelded, ATS coil-over set up, tubular control arms, ATS spindles, ATS steering box, Baer Trackers and ATS splined sway bar.

Bad Penny - 21st Century Street Machine subframe using coilovers, C5 control arms, uprights and hubs, AGR rack and pinion and a splined swaybar.

Both have LSx engines putting out well north of 500hp, both use T56's and the Lateral Dynamics 3 Link rear suspension. (That list tells you something doesn't it?) So far as I can determine, the only material difference (other than the obvious subframe difference) between the two is that Penny (I think) carries wider front wheels and tires.

[GregWeld]

I see the "preference vote" is 39 AME to 33 for DSE...

It would be fun to see if this vote is split along "east" and "west" addresses for the voters?

It's a hypothetical question - but would be interesting to see if there is a difference of opinion based on location and 'familiarity'.

:beathorse

[David Pozzi]

There is surprisingly little difference between driving Penny and the One Lap Camaro. Penny has a slight advantage due to wider front tires and less overall weight, - and less front weight, but it's more due to those items than subframe construction or other factors. They are more alike than you could imagine. The low tie rod end spacers needed to bumpsteer the ATS spindles are limiting the front rim width for OLC to a 255 tire,. I'm sure there is a solution to it, but for now there are more pressing items on the "list" to fix. Both cars are not fully developed yet, but the biggest issues are solved and we are making progress.

Some of the differences are more in the ease of adjusting a coil over or header or engine clearance. The front rack subs have easier access to the tie rod adjusters, rear steer cars are harder to reach, but I just loosen the tie rod sleeves before setting the car on the turntables, then raise the car to lock them down. I recently did a rough alignment on a DSE sub and really like how it looks under the car. The shock adjusters were a bit tight to get to but not too bad. The sway bar arms are closer to the coilovers which are more inboard and vertical on the A arm than other subs, not a big problem but just different. I like how they tied the rack mounts into the sway bar crossmember. The OLC has more scrub radius by quite a bit, but honestly it barely showed up when I drove it down a familiar bumpy section of road near my house. DSE sub adjusts with shims like a stock sub, their A arms come with delrin bushings which are going to give better control of the suspension than the stock corvette rubber. I don't know if Morrison has upgrades for the A arm bushings. The Corvette bushings are very soft and you wouldn't notice they were causing a cornering loss unles you swapped in better stuff. What I'm trying to say is, most people wouldn't notice the stock Corvette rubber a arm bushings were a problem and wouldn't need to upgrade them, but those who open track or autocross a lot should consider it.

The Lateral Dynamics rear suspension is about as good as it gets for a stick axle car. Super stability and less unsprung weight helps keep the wheels on the ground when you hit bumps. I'm sure the torque arm and DSE rear suspensions are good too.

If you are re-working a stock sub yourself, you might save money over an aftermarket sub.
If you are paying someone to do it, an aftermarket sub is probably very close in cost to a reworked stock sub.
David

[tyoneal]

While I'm not sure I agree with your "best" parts list, until James and Steve agree that, say, David Pozzi can run the One Lap Camaro and Bad Penny on the same track, back to back, we'll not have a very good answer.

One Lap - Stock subframe, rewelded, ATS coil-over set up, tubular control arms, ATS spindles, ATS steering box, Baer Trackers and ATS splined sway bar.

Bad Penny - 21st Century Street Machine subframe using coilovers, C5 control arms, uprights and hubs, AGR rack and pinion and a splined swaybar.

Both have LSx engines putting out well north of 500hp, both use T56's and the Lateral Dynamics 3 Link rear suspension. (That list tells you something doesn't it?) So far as I can determine, the only material difference (other than the obvious subframe difference) between the two is that Penny (I think) carries wider front wheels and tires.
==============================
My car has a LS3 (600 hp, not in yet), Tremec 5 Speed, LD 3-Link, Penske Shocks DA Front, Spax Shocks DA rear, ATS Coil Over set up, ATS Steering Box, the ATS Spindles won't work with the wheels because I want to Run Mini-Lites, 6 Pot Wilwood, 13 inch Two Piece Rotors, Sway Bar by Hotchkis. Full Cage.

Hopefully this will help with the comparison. While not exactly the same, most major parts are.

Thanks,

Ty

[tyoneal]

There is surprisingly little difference between driving Penny and the One Lap Camaro. Penny has a slight advantage due to wider front tires and less overall weight, - and less front weight, but it's more due to those items than subframe construction or other factors. They are more alike than you could imagine. The low tie rod end spacers needed to bumpsteer the ATS spindles are limiting the front rim width for OLC to a 255 tire,. I'm sure there is a solution to it, but for now there are more pressing items on the "list" to fix. Both cars are not fully developed yet, but the biggest issues are solved and we are making progress.

Some of the differences are more in the ease of adjusting a coil over or header or engine clearance. The front rack subs have easier access to the tie rod adjusters, rear steer cars are harder to reach, but I just loosen the tie rod sleeves before setting the car on the turntables, then raise the car to lock them down. I recently did a rough alignment on a DSE sub and really like how it looks under the car. The shock adjusters were a bit tight to get to but not too bad. The sway bar arms are closer to the coilovers which are more inboard and vertical on the A arm than other subs, not a big problem but just different. I like how they tied the rack mounts into the sway bar crossmember. The OLC has more scrub radius by quite a bit, but honestly it barely showed up when I drove it down a familiar bumpy section of road near my house. DSE sub adjusts with shims like a stock sub, their A arms come with delrin bushings which are going to give better control of the suspension than the stock corvette rubber. I don't know if Morrison has upgrades for the A arm bushings. The Corvette bushings are very soft and you wouldn't notice they were causing a cornering loss unles you swapped in better stuff. What I'm trying to say is, most people wouldn't notice the stock Corvette rubber a arm bushings were a problem and wouldn't need to upgrade them, but those who open track or autocross a lot should consider it.

The Lateral Dynamics rear suspension is about as good as it gets for a stick axle car. Super stability and less unsprung weight helps keep the wheels on the ground when you hit bumps. I'm sure the torque arm and DSE rear suspensions are good too.

If you are re-working a stock sub yourself, you might save money.
If you are paying someone to do it, an aftermarket sub is probably very close in cost to a reworked stock sub.
David

David:

Many Thanks for your input.

Sincerely,

Ty O'Neal

[customcam]

Great input David,Thanks

[ArisESQ]

I would probably go with the AME simply because it utilizes off the shelf GM parts that can be purchased from a dealership, and maybe even a pick and pull yard... and i think it looks cooler.

HOWEVER

DSE has some of the best customer service I've experienced, and their business is based almost solely on pro-touring cars alone. They really do know the product base inside and out (not that AME doesn't, but they have a lot going on).

[Stuart Adams]

DSE has averaged one subframe sale per day since available. That is just their numbers, that means pro touring is alive and doing well.:cheers:

[Tom.A]

DSE has averaged one subframe sale per day since available. That is just their numbers, that means pro touring is alive and doing well.:cheers:

That's good news they are selling so well. I never really thought about how many they produce but I would think that's more than most other mfr's could say. My first thought was how many more can they sell at that rate....
22 day avg work days a month x 12 = 264 a year! I would say there is plenty more when you consider that almost 700,000 67-69 camaros were built:yes: Plus the repop bodies and poncho's.
O.K. enough with the fun facts (thread jack over)

I think both are great companies but imo if I was building a Camaro I would go with DSE.

[bigrichard]

The dse front clip can't be beat in the looks department, but i think between the two it would be hard to go wrong!

[Silver69Camaro]

DSE has some of the best customer service I've experienced, and their business is based almost solely on pro-touring cars alone. They really do know the product base inside and out (not that AME doesn't, but they have a lot going on).

DSE does have great customer service, as we do as well. Art's been in business for over 35 years in this industry, and we make sure everybody is happy and taken care of. Recently, we had a full frame damaged in shipping and we built a new frame for the customer before the old one came back, even though we may not get reimbursed from the shipping company. But the priority is the customer gets taken care of.

Our main drive is "Pro-Touring", but we don't stop at musclecars. We can set up a '55 Ford pickup, 1940 Ford coupe, or maybe a 1975 Caprice to handle better than a modern Corvette. Heck, we just had a '41 Willys built by Woodys Hot Rods using our frame and suspension outrun a Viper on a road course, driven by a professional driver. Pretty cool.

[tones2SS]

DSE does have great customer service, as we do as well. Art's been in business for over 35 years in this industry, and we make sure everybody is happy and taken care of. Recently, we had a full frame damaged in shipping and we built a new frame for the customer before the old one came back, even though we may not get reimbursed from the shipping company. But the priority is the customer gets taken care of.

Our main drive is "Pro-Touring", but we don't stop at musclecars. We can set up a '55 Ford pickup, 1940 Ford coupe, or maybe a 1975 Caprice to handle better than a modern Corvette. Heck, we just had a '41 Willys built by Woodys Hot Rods using our frame and suspension outrun a Viper on a road course, driven by a professional driver. Pretty cool.

Very cool Matt. You guys are very professional for doing that!:cheers:

[customcam]

DSE does have great customer service, as we do as well. Art's been in business for over 35 years in this industry, and we make sure everybody is happy and taken care of. Recently, we had a full frame damaged in shipping and we built a new frame for the customer before the old one came back, even though we may not get reimbursed from the shipping company. But the priority is the customer gets taken care of.

Our main drive is "Pro-Touring", but we don't stop at musclecars. We can set up a '55 Ford pickup, 1940 Ford coupe, or maybe a 1975 Caprice to handle better than a modern Corvette. Heck, we just had a '41 Willys built by Woodys Hot Rods using our frame and suspension outrun a Viper on a road course, driven by a professional driver. Pretty cool.

You guys are at the Top! :bow:

[XLexusTech]

DSE does have great customer service, as we do as well. Art's been in business for over 35 years in this industry, and we make sure everybody is happy and taken care of. Recently, we had a full frame damaged in shipping and we built a new frame for the customer before the old one came back, even though we may not get reimbursed from the shipping company. But the priority is the customer gets taken care of.

Our main drive is "Pro-Touring", but we don't stop at musclecars. We can set up a '55 Ford pickup, 1940 Ford coupe, or maybe a 1975 Caprice to handle better than a modern Corvette. Heck, we just had a '41 Willys built by Woodys Hot Rods using our frame and suspension outrun a Viper on a road course, driven by a professional driver. Pretty cool.

I got to know Matt. How the heck do you damage a frame in shipping? Secondly do you have a Scratch and dent sale? If so I got Dibs.:cheers:

[CraigMorrison]

I got to know Matt. How the heck do you damage a frame in shipping? Secondly do you have a Scratch and dent sale? If so I got Dibs.:cheers:


We wonder the same thing - One particular chassis had the entire crate blown apart, the rack casting was broke, control arms bent, body mounts bent. It had looked like it was dropped off a multi-story building. Thankfully that sort of damage only happens about once every 3-5 years.

To also address the issue of upgrades on our subframe - We now offer a splined sway bar kit as well as a choice of a larger diameter non splined bar. As of Monday we are a dealer for Penske Racing Shocks and will shortly be offering double and triple adjustable shocks. As for the bushing situation, we are working on some things right now. In the meantime any C6 bushing upgrade will work on our components since they are control arms are OE GM pieces.

As always, thanks for the feedback.