FINALLY!! Headers for LSX+DSE combination

[Bowtieracing]

Finally finally there is a headers coming on the market what i have been waiting long time :woot: :cheers:

Look at what DSE is going to release soon :thumbsup:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/emalikyltti/DSE-03-27-2009025.jpg

[XcYZ]

$2,230 a set.

[BBC69Camaro]

$2,230 a set.

Ouch! :willy:

[chicane]

$2230 isnt all that bad...

Too bad they are equal length... it just makes them "peaky".

Nice lookin tube though... that is for sure.

[tones2SS]

$2,230 a set.

YIKESSSS!!!
Quality looks good though.:thumbsup:

[Rybar]

Those are some nice ass headers :yes:

[awr68]

They look nice!
What I love about the LS motors is the placement of the header bolts...mine are a bitch with the 1 7/8" tubes on a gen 2 SBC!

[67ragtp]

Joni,

If you already have the engine frame mounts from DSE, they have to go back for the pipes to fit correctly. Kyle told me the modified frame mounts move the engine 1 inch back and then the pipes will fit well. I should have a set next week, will post some pics when I recieve them.

Rich

[XLexusTech]

2K for headers is crazy, even if they are SS. just my Humble opinion AND I am cheap.... What the diff between these and the ATS ones which are prices similar.

These expensive extras is what turns me off about the LS platform which in my opinion is a Superior Platform to Gen 1. The extras cost so much$$$$$

[67ragtp]

I wouldn't say they are priced similar. The ATS is a true custom made road race header and costs 3k. Thats not 2k(DSE). Custom built pipes are in the 1200 to 1500 range in mild steel, add high quality stainless/o2 bungs/v band hardware you quickly surpass 2k. My Dan Lemons big block chevy pipes were over a grand in mild steel.

To get this stuff to fit your custom chassis is the hard part, Its pretty expensive, I see your point to a certain degree. But the additional costs of the fuel injection and associated electronics, serpentine accessory systems, and custom made pipes can all add up the same on a gen 1 as well. I have a full FAST system on my sb and it cost a bloody fortune to set up. If you do a vintage air frontrunner sysem on a sb its gonna be bucks.

Tell you what I just picked up a complete serp system from gm performance parts for 450 bucks for my ls7, I feel like I got the bargain of the century, it certainly doesn't look the best but it has a stock looking appeal. :cheers:

Rich

[abadsvt]

$2230 isnt all that bad...

Too bad they are equal length... it just makes them "peaky".

Nice lookin tube though... that is for sure.

"Peaky" Can you explain? I always thought equal length was an ideal setup.

Josh

[chicane]

"Peaky" Can you explain? I always thought equal length was an ideal setup.

Josh

4 into 1 vs. stepped try-y's... has always been healthy debate. Both have their 'applications'... but one is much better suited than the other, for a given application.

"Equal length" became a buzz word from the application. That buzz word was in reference to, obviously, making the primary tubes equal length... vice that of a tube header without equal length primaries. Now remember... we're referencing 1950's era buzz and technology. But... simply stated, yes... 4 into 1 'equal length' headers were much better than what the OEM and most aftermarket had available. But... how are they better... and most importantly, what application(s) are they better for?

In an application where the operational power band is relatively narrow (which really limits it's ability in most cases)... an equal length 4 into 1 header is choice. An application that suits that specifically is drag racing... where you pretty much operate in a limited range, in the latter quarter of the RPM band. Another application... would be on the engine dyno... where you are trying to make "peak" numbers... if only for a cock swinging contest. The 4 into 1 equal length design is well established for these applications... and is used in many forms of racing where the length of the track, or the lack of turns is present... like that in super speedways or longer oval tracks... where you are at a sustained throttle position, in the latter part of the RPM band.

The Try-y... also a 1950's design/creation... changed the approach and opened up many doors into the understanding of fluid dynamics. The basic design theory is 'pairing' of cylinders in the firing order. When the next (paired) cylinder's exhaust valve opens, the vacuum in the system pulls the exhaust out of the cylinder. This design improves the scavenging of individual cylinders and the tube length effects the time of the phasing, of the individual pulse.

Try-y's have always been though of as making better low and mid range power, but give up some at the top end. Meaning: they don't make the peak numbers that a 4 into 1 design would make. That is far from true in this day and age. With the advent of the "X Design" program and late model engineering practice... the newer Try-y designs make, not only more power under the curve... but peak power as well.


Now... for the practical application. If you were to only drive your car at full throttle, in the latter quarter of the power curve... the 4 into 1 would be something to consider. So... if your drag racing... that is pretty much your best bet... in most cases. If your driving on a long oval where you rarely fluctuate more than about 2k RPM... the 4 into 1 would be something to consider.

But... we drive our cars on the street and some of us at the track as well, which both are very similar. Normally, where you utilize more that 75% of the RPM band width... just as it would be on the street like it would also be on a road course... the Try-y makes more sense. More usable power under the curve... and in the majority of cases, more peak power.

Todays professional race teams know this... the C6R Corvettes, Trophy Trucks... and even the left hand turn club (NASCAR) utilize the Try-y specifically for road course efforts... they all use the Try-y design. Katech Engine Development, who builds engines for Pratt&Miller and the Corvette C6R, a few Trophy Truck's and some NASCAR efforts (not to mention they were the proverbial **** back in the Trans-Am days)... dropped a set of ATS Try-y headers on a standard engine package that is the mainstay of their aftermarket business... and they made more power everywhere... under the curve and even peak... over their custom dyno headers that were made for that particular engine package.

Considering 'our' application in duality... the streets and even some road course work... I very much believe the Try-y design is better suited for 'our' use. If they were not... we wouldn't have even considered the design in the first place when ATS developed it's Try-y header with Burns Stainless for the First Gen F-body and specific use with the LS7 or higher performance LSx applications.

[skatinjay27]

as always thanks for the good reading!

the good thing about reading your post over when we talk face to face is you give out so much info its neccesary to go back and re-read it LOL


do you know of any other options (brands) of tri-ys for a sbc in my car other than the doug thorleys?

[WSSix]

$2230 is nuts. That's really uncalled for and way over priced. Stainless Works has been making their 304 headers for half that for pretty much ever. They may not have this particular application but they have many many others.


Here's what $1600 will buy you and I can assure you, it's a more difficult fit than putting headers onto an LSx in a 1st gen. These are some of the best C5/6 vette headers on the planet.

http://www.lgmotorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2113&osCsid=ceb7720a12ba278355c14775624dc194

[Vegas69]

I agree that the price is out of this world. I bet lemons has a set of killer headers for way less.

[Flash68]

Wicked nice I agree. But there is a nice "DSE tax" included in that price for their great name.

[amaronut]

That's a good price. Try buying materials and making them for that kind of money. Good materials will cost $1200 - $1500 and labor for a custom set would be anywhere from 60 - 80 hrs if you know what your doing.

[XLexusTech]

In my opinion DSE targets the high end customer. Their prices are high in part to reflect "exclusivity". To apply the same principle it's what makes a two pieces of clothing, say a dress made of the same material 5000.00 for one and 50 for the other when they are made of the same material.

The fancy designer carries with it the exclusivity and presumption of wealth of its owner or higher quality of the part. Personally I don't buy into the theory that just because it cost more it must be better. Many do, and they keep the demand high enough that the prices are supported.

Two more points;

Their are options for the average Joe and I look everywhere for options, including the used parts bin and other vendors.

DSE should be able to benefit from innovation, when their first to market they should have a higher in price

[thedude327]

Look at what DSE is going to release soon :thumbsup:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/emalikyltti/DSE-03-27-2009025.jpg

Say aren't those............Marmon flanges and adapter clamps? ;)

Paul

[ohcbird]

2300+ sounds expensive, and it is, but it isn't completely out in space... break it down & compare against some other headers:

1. Stainless always adds some coin, esp if you have priced good 304/306 lately.
2. If those are REAL merge collectors (which I'm sure they are), not just pieces that look like them, that adds a good 4-500 retail. Don't believe me? contact SPD or Burns Stainless.
3. The V-band (Marmon) clamps & flanges aren't cheap, either.

OK- that may not sound like $2300+ worth of justification, but you gotta pay to play.

[customcam]

The quality/materials look great but you have to justify that amount some how, if you can.
Power/torque increase?? no numbers "yet"...??

[Josh@KYTP]

Its inovation, capitolisim, marketing and everything else at its finest. They know people want them. They know people will buy them. Are they high? Isnt everything they sell high? It is and they are for a reason. It works for them.

They are nice headers. No doubt about it. are they out of line? I dont think so. Look at turbo headers. Alot more $$$$. Alot less material.

[WSSix]

Something else I noticed that I don't like, O2 bung placement. It's too close to the merge so you'll be getting too much signal from one cylinder. I haven't seen these in a car so I'm not sure why they have such a short collector on them but ideally, the bung needs to move away more to get a better mix from all cylinders on that bank.

[Bowtieracing]

$2230 is nuts. That's really uncalled for and way over priced. Stainless Works has been making their 304 headers for half that for pretty much ever. They may not have this particular application but they have many many others.
Here's what $1600 will buy you and I can assure you, it's a more difficult fit than putting headers onto an LSx in a 1st gen. These are some of the best C5/6 vette headers on the planet.
http://www.lgmotorsports.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2113&osCsid=ceb7720a12ba278355c14775624dc194


What would i do with set of 1600$ headers if i cant get them to fit my chassis ?? What is the point of saving 830 there ? And believe me i have done the search on these. StainlessWorks do not offer anything on DSE sub + LSx combination. How about plug wires ? How many headers you have seen take stock wires? ( header wires cost $$$ too )



I agree that the price is out of this world. I bet lemons has a set of killer headers for way less.


Similar headers made in stainless cost even more at Lemons.( 2450+220 for V bands= 2670$ )

Did we set a beers as bet ?? :unibrow: :cheers:

I wish there would be cheaper alternative. But so far i have not found any in stainless,1 7/8" and V bands

[Bowtieracing]

Well, Lemons can give you the design that you need. Regardless, even if you get Stainless headers. You will still need to have them ceramic coated. Tom Nelson recommends that be done on their turbo headers.

Jeff



Yes,nothing against lemons but i just cant afford them. And all props to Tom but i dont feel like needing coating on N/A stainless headers.

[Vegas69]

My thoughts were that you could have a set of regular steel headers made by lemons for quite a bit less. Stainless is a whole different story. I've never been a fan of the blueing of any exhaust pipe.

[JamesJ]

The hard part is room, Even ATS headers are not really the best example of a TRY-Y here is a set that are used in nascar

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s315/jamesjphotobucket/photo.jpg

[Bowtieracing]

That ATS flange is like piece of art:cool:

[WSSix]

What would i do with set of 1600$ headers if i cant get them to fit my chassis ?? What is the point of saving 830 there ? And believe me i have done the search on these. StainlessWorks do not offer anything on DSE sub + LSx combination. How about plug wires ? How many headers you have seen take stock wires? ( header wires cost $$$ too )






Similar headers made in stainless cost even more at Lemons.( 2450+220 for V bands= 2670$ )

Did we set a beers as bet ?? :unibrow: :cheers:

I wish there would be cheaper alternative. But so far i have not found any in stainless,1 7/8" and V bands


My point was the price is high for the DSE headers. I used those C6 headers as an example of what other similar products cost ie SS headers. Much of the cost in headers is the complexity of the design. The LG headers are a complex design for their chassis and happen to be a more complex design than the DSE headers yet cost much less. Volume of sales must be factored in as well of course but even then, I still think DSE is high. Stainless Works was just another example of a similar product. If what you need is what DSE has, then you won't have much choice but to pay the price. That still doesn't change the fact that the price is high. Which is my opinion ultimately. In a captialistic economy, nothing is priced too high if someone buys it.

[chicane]

The hard part is room, Even ATS headers are not really the best example of a TRY-Y here is a set that are used in nascar

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s315/jamesjphotobucket/photo.jpg

I am guessing that is an assumption ??

The ATS headers were designed by Burns from his "X-Design" program... so I am wondering how you have come to the conclusion that they are not a good example for a Try-y ?? Is it because they don't look like the SB2 headers shown in your picture ?? Is everything NASCAR picture perfect and the "example" for all to follow ??

uhm... no.

Mind you that the headers shown in your picture are for an engine that basically lives between seven and nintyfive hundred RPM... THEY themselves, are not the best example / representation of a Try-y header used in OUR application. You can not compare them as apples to apples in this discussion. Because... it is not and they can not be... apples to apples. Also... "Packaging" does not make a header work... or not work for that matter... it's merely how it fits the application/chassis. But... the primary dia, primary length to its merge... to the secondary dia, secondary length to its merge and then to the collector... is what makes a header 'tuned' for the application. Just because you post a picture of an SB2 seader... and possibly think of it as being a good example... doesn't make it relative to any of this. What you have shown is an excellent example of a Try-y design designed for a sustained high RPM application... which I would also bet, that it makes more broad band torque than that of an equal length header for the same application.

Anyway... don't take any of that personal.


The 'cost' will continue to be a debate. But... looking at the DSE header, what do you see ?? I don't know about you all... but I see >>one piece<< mandrel bent tubes, quality flanges and real merge collectors... in stainless no less. The cost alone of the one piece mandrel bent tubes makes me cringe to say the least. Do you really wonder why they cost so much ?? Well... there's the answer to your question. Uhhh... oh yeah, and they fit into the intended application without isue and/or modification.

Have you ever wondered why the ATS headers are priced where they are ?? Do you have any idea on what it costs for Jack to do his "X-design" and then to actually make a production jig... for just that ?? Not to mention... someone brought up the point in cost of the individual 'merge' collectors themselves. The associated cost quoted above was just for the collector merge(s). Just think... the ATS headers have... SIX... merge collectors in a single set. That is one reason why they cost what they do.

Both the ATS and DSE products discussed here are low production... which means they until they hit a certian 'number' produced... they will need to recoup the delvelopment, material and production costs in its initial offering.

$2230 isnt all that bad for what you are paying for. Other than the O2 bung placement... which can be worked around... that is a damn nice set of tubes for $2230 !

[Flash68]

Wow, a very convincing argument from Chicane. (I love reading your posts, BTW - always informative). :)

Who dares to counter that? Not me. :_paranoid

I am just glad I scored my full stainless steel stepped headers made for my application (plain ole SBC) off ebay for $750 about two years ago!

Mr Chicane, what is your analysis of these? (1-3/4" stepped to 1-7/8" with 3.5" collector) :cheers: (sorry for the quick threadjack, but it's sorta related!)

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/steppedheaders.jpg

[Vegas69]

Mr. Chicane....?:rofl:

[Flash68]

Mr. Chicane....?:rofl:

I know his name is Tom but I like to cite usernames sometimes! :willy:

[Bowtieracing]

...The 'cost' will continue to be a debate. But... looking at the DSE header, what do you see ?? I don't know about you all... but I see >>one piece<< mandrel bent tubes, quality flanges and real merge collectors... in stainless no less. The cost alone of the one piece mandrel bent tubes makes me cringe to say the least. Do you really wonder why they cost so much ?? Well... there's the answer to your question. Uhhh... oh yeah, and they fit into the intended application without isue and/or modification.....




Well it seem at only real tech head can understood my point on this.. Thanks again Chicane:cheers:

[badazz81z28]

Back from the dead...


I wanted to comment on DSE's headers as mine arrived today. Honestly, not impressed for the price in terms of cosmetic. The headers are defintly "raw", there are tooling marks all over them, and they are not one piece tubes. You can see the weld beads.

As for the oxygen sensor, it looks like its in one tube, but the tubes are already merged together at that point. Its exposed to all 3 tubes.

My hopeful main point is they will fit awesome and killer ground clearence.

[badazz81z28]

I'm gonna contact DSE, about to mock them up and I just can't get over the tool marks!

[Che70velle]

I'm gonna contact DSE, about to mock them up and I just can't get over the tool marks!

Can you throw up some pics?

[tungstenkiller]

It is kinda unfortunate that everyone frets about the price. I build headers for a living and that price is not far off for a set of "custom" headers

But they should not be considered custom because after the first set the price should come down. Dont forget the tooling costs also must be offset.


I'm gonna contact DSE, about to mock them up and I just can't get over the tool marks!

Back from the dead...


I wanted to comment on DSE's headers as mine arrived today. Honestly, not impressed for the price in terms of cosmetic. The headers are defintly "raw", there are tooling marks all over them, and they are not one piece tubes. You can see the weld beads.

As for the oxygen sensor, it looks like its in one tube, but the tubes are already merged together at that point. Its exposed to all 3 tubes.

My hopeful main point is they will fit awesome and killer ground clearence.

It is unfortunate that the tubing wasn't pre prepped before welding, that is unacceptable in my mind.

[badazz81z28]

It is kinda unfortunate that everyone frets about the price. I build headers for a living and that price is not far off for a set of "custom" headers

But they should not be considered custom because after the first set the price should come down. Dont forget the tooling costs also must be offset.






It is unfortunate that the tubing wasn't pre prepped before welding, that is unacceptable in my mind.

Yup, I did contact them and the tooling marks are considered normal. They do have beautiful welds, but the pictures on the sites do make the tubes look nicer than they really are. Overall, the fit is what make me happy


Pm me for pictures