how much better would dse stuff make my car?

[catmull]

does anyone know if any tests have been done were they have taken a stock camaro tested it and then afterward gave it the total dse treatment such as sub frame, quadra link, sub frame connectors, mini tubs and some bad tires and then subjected it to the same tests. im just curious to know how much better a total pro touring camaro is than a stocker.

[ProdigyCustoms]

A HUGE difference. I do not think there has been any before and after test, it would be like testing a Chevette against a Corvette!

[Vegas69]

Exactly! I drove a 68 camaro in stock form for years as a youngster, now I have a car with a DSE sub, connectors, and g bar. WOW is all I have to say. I never imagined it would handle so well but ride so nice.

[JamesJ]

Tires are one of the biggest advancements in modern time… but all that other stuff helps as well…

[XLexusTech]

you will never get test results form any of the vendors..... I have tried. So dont bother. My advice to you is to go to some of the events and see and drive for yourself.

James make a great point. Stock vs Modded is a waste. Stock with 17 inch wheels and good rubbber a G Mod and good springs and shocks -Vs- a one with another 10K in Mods would be a more worth while comparison as tires and wheels will make a big diff right off the bat.

[Vegas69]

I don't see how stock vs modded is a waste. Plenty of cars with stock suspension and modern tires running around. I really don't think my BFG's in the late nineties were that much worse than my pilot sports. It is mostly suspension and engineering.

[XLexusTech]

I don't see how stock vs modded is a waste. Plenty of cars with stock suspension and modern tires running around. I really don't think my BFG's in the late nineties were that much worse than my pilot sports. It is mostly suspension and engineering.

Becasue the differacne betwwn 15" 60 series tires with a massive side wall and 17 or larger with a small sidewall is going to make such a differance you might as well throw the stock test out.

Here is a real test take a car like Carl C's and run it agains the DSE test car with the same HP/Torque

[Spiffav8]

you will never get test results form any of the vendors..... I have tried. So dont bother. My advice to you is to go to some of the events and see and drive for yourself.

James make a great point. Stock vs Modded is a waste. Stock with 17 inch wheels and good rubbber a G Mod and good springs and shocks -Vs- a one with another 10K in Mods would be a more worth while comparison as tires and wheels will make a big diff right off the bat.

My 67 had a lot of the upgrades that you've mentioned and a few more. Vegas69 and I have done a lot of running around together and his car would just flat out run away from me in the twists and turns. The suspension makes a huge difference! My next car will get the full treatment.

[Vegas69]

I'm not looking for a pissing match with you lexustech. I've read your thoughts on modding 1 gen suspension many times on various forums. I was simply trying to answer the posters question since I have spent many enjoyable miles behind the wheel of both scenarios. I am willing to go out on a limb here and say my 68 camaro would have still handled horribly and road like a lumber wagon with modern pilot sports. Thanks Curtis:thumbsup: Andy called me Friday and started to harrass me but we ended up tallking about cars for 30 minutes.

[Spiffav8]

I'm not looking for a pissing match with you lexustech. I've read your thoughts on modding 1 gen suspension many times on various forums. I was simply trying to answer the posters question since I have spent many enjoyable miles behind the wheel of both scenarios. I am willing to go out on a limb here and say my 68 camaro would have still handled horribly and road like a lumber wagon with modern pilot sports. Thanks Curtis:thumbsup: Andy called me Friday and started to harrass me but we ended up tallking about cars for 30 minutes.

Andy is a great guy. Looking forward to his car arriving and doing a tour around the lake with you. Wish I could have seen the look on your face when he introduced him self.

:lol:

[skatinjay27]

My 67 had a lot of the upgrades that you've mentioned and a few more. Vegas69 and I have done a lot of running around together and his car would just flat out run away from me in the twists and turns. The suspension makes a huge difference! My next car will get the full treatment. i can second this as Ive been in both these cars and my stock 2nd gen for refference.
curtis car handles AWESOME and before i rode in todds 69 i figured they would be really close it performance/handling... after i rode in it i knew i was dead wrong! lol
todd car feels NOTHING like a classic car... deff worth the extra money.

off topic- happy late b-day curtis!

[Spiffav8]

i can second this as Ive been in both these cars and my stock 2nd gen for refference.
curtis car handles AWESOME and before i rode in todds 69 i figured they would be really close it performance/handling... after i rode in it i knew i was dead wrong! lol
todd car feels NOTHING like a classic car... deff worth the extra money.

off topic- happy late b-day curtis!

Actually it was early...but Thanks man. :thumbsup:

[andrewmp6]

Just look at the parts alone anything dse makes is a lot thicker and stronger then oem.But the driver is 80% of it i could jump in a nascar but it wouldn't make me win every race would it.

[Derek69SS]

There's a lot of generalizations being thrown around... tires do make a big difference, but with "stock" geometry, you'll still only use the outside edges of them in a corner. You still need to improve the geometry to take advantage of the better tires.

Stock vs. DSE = no comparison.

You can, however, modify your stock parts to get close to DSE performance for a LOT less money... Just a simple Guldstrand mod will let you take advantage of the whole tire, and for basically free.

There will still be a difference, but you can close the gap by a considerable amount without spending much.

[Vegas69]

Performance wise...maybe...ride and feel...doubtful. Be interesting to talk to someone that has felt both. Frank is probaby the best to talk to here.

[Spiffav8]

Performance wise...maybe...ride and feel...doubtful. Be interesting to talk to someone that has felt both. Frank is probaby the best to talk to here.

This sounds like a job for....Steven Rupp! It would be neat to find a stock 69 Camaro, bolt on some good rubber and then do lap or two with Mary behind the wheel. Then do a few mods and compare the times against a DSE car.

[XLexusTech]

There's a lot of generalizations being thrown around... tires do make a big difference, but with "stock" geometry, you'll still only use the outside edges of them in a corner. You still need to improve the geometry to take advantage of the better tires.

Stock vs. DSE = no comparison.

You can, however, modify your stock parts to get close to DSE performance for a LOT less money... Just a simple Guldstrand mod will let you take advantage of the whole tire, and for basically free.

There will still be a difference, but you can close the gap by a considerable amount without spending much.

Yes this is exacly my point :cheers:

[7TSS]

I found an old article run in Super Chevy comparing stock leaf rear to the Quadralink. Here's the link in two parts:

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/suspension_steering/0602sc_detroit/index.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/suspension_steering/sucp_0604_1969_camaro_testing/index.html


I don't recall any article comparing front subframes etc.
I also agree that a modified stock suspension can get you close for less. It all depends on your goals and budget. If you have the budget the DSE stuff will definitely help make your car handle tons better while allowing for a civilized ride.

[Mkelcy]

I found an old article run in Super Chevy comparing stock leaf rear to the Quadralink. Here's the link in two parts:

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/suspension_steering/0602sc_detroit/index.html

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/suspension_steering/sucp_0604_1969_camaro_testing/index.html


I don't recall any article comparing front subframes etc.
I also agree that a modified stock suspension can get you close for less. It all depends on your goals and budget. If you have the budget the DSE stuff will definitely help make your car handle tons better while allowing for a civilized ride.

That's not really going to tell you much. The baseline test used, apparently, a completely stock rear suspension. Who knows how old the leafs are or how beat up the shocks were. I don't know about you, but I've never had a wheel hop issue in my '68 with aftermarket springs.

They also can't seem to decide what they were testing. In the first article they say:
In the before tests, the car will use Fikse wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport 245/40 ZR18 tires on the front and 275/40s on the rear. Modifications will then be made with the installation of the Quadra-Link system, DSE deep tubs, and 335/30 ZR18 Goodrich tires on the rear, followed by post modification testing.

In the second they say the only change will be the Quadralink.

I'm guessing the major difference between modified stock and aftermarket front and rear suspension clips MIGHT be comfort between high performance blasts. With luck, I'll be able to do some personal testing late this year.

[XLexusTech]

Here is a thought... The front suspension system will make you car about

$7000.00 dollars better Plus shipping and the rear about $2400.00 better.
Hows that for a meaningful answer...:rofl:

Seriously though if you want a real answer I don’t believe these boards and certainly no magazine articles (I once saw a side by side article comparing Rhodes to Crane bleed down lifters that was identical in two magazines word for word except they swapped names. One said Crane was better the other Rhodes) same publisher..... Scary I know. Ever heard this “believe none of what you read and 1/2 of what you see” ?

Get out there to some of these events and see for yourself what works. Many guys will let you hop in their cars and ride with them..
Last thing take a skeptical look around and the sources of some of the product Hype. It’s very enlightening.
Also look to the people who routinely bash their cars around autocross events and ask yourself why many of those folks are not using the latest greatest aftermarket do dad... I will admit that many of the products and particularly DSE’s have serious advantages. There are however cheaper options available without spending coin The G mod is a great example. Since most of us are not made of money or get these products for a deep discount I would really like to see a worth while comparison of what you’re paying for when you pony up this kind of Money for some of this stuff. As of now I know of no unbiased comparison that would allow me to justify the expense. I find the absence of such a comparative in itself telling.

Sorry for the ramble..

[Vegas69]

At 7k it's a bargain. If I had it to do all over again...that would be at the top of the list again. You really have to drive it to understand just how outstanding it really is. If you blindfolded someone and didn't tell them what car they are driving. I don't think there is a chance they would say a muscle car by the feel. I have a good buddy that has owned an M3, Viper, and Porsche and said my car is far better than the Viper and in the same league as the others. The Gbar compliments it nice as well. Really happy with the ride and adjustability.
What it really comes down to is if you want the feel and ride of a modern sports car. On the track you guys are probably right, it would be close performance wise. In my case I want to bake my cake and eat it to. I'll spend 95% of the time on the street. Ride is just as important. There is a reason you don't see leaf springs and coil shock combinations on cars anymore.