Lateral-G Open Challange Event

[Teetoe_Jones]

This has really got my attention. We need to form a committe to layout rules, classes, and location.
I think we need to have at least 2 classes, one for bolt on mods, and one for tube chassis cars. I'd love for this to be an event for manufacturers to show off their products and vehicles, but it would be more fun to have the whole club involved.

So? What are we going to do to make this happen?

Tyler

[race-rodz]

im in!!! i think the rule suggestions should be contributed by everybody, and a selected group should be the deciding factor for what goes.

i think the first thing is to decide if its a one event deal... or a bunch of "regional events" with the winners goin head to head in a semi central location.

i really think it should also be a run what ya brung kinda thing.... exceptions being made for saftey concerns.... like trying to drag race a high hp car on normal street radials is as much a safety hazard as it is a hinderance to performance.


obviously everybody is startin the mad thrash before sema.... so the actual selection process and everything else should probably wait till after...when everything slows down a bit. but, i think we can all start throwin out the ideas.

[Damn True]

Step #1 Finish our cars. (I'll need someone to float me about $35k) :yes:


I would toss out times in scoring the event and just assign points based upon order of finish in each discipline. That way if someone blows everyone away in the drag race he dosen't get a point's cushion to protect him in the road course, slalom, braking etc. It would prevent someone from building a one trick pony and require balanced performance. After all, that is the idea behind these cars is it not? Concievably someone could win the whole enchilada without winning an individual event if their car is consistantly among the top few finishers. I think that would speak to overall build quality (reliability) as well as the design and implementation of various systems.

1st - 5pts
2nd - 4pts
3rd - 3pts
4th - 2pts
5th - 1pts

Of course you could stretch the placing and points out if there are more participants.

[Mean 69]

This could be a lot of fun. I know there will be a really good number of us at the SEMA show, we should try to have a lunch or something to flesh this out a bit more. And you are right, SEMA is no doubt consuming a lot of people's time.

That said, there is an open track event right down the street from SEMA the weekend right after the show at Pahrump.....

Mark

[Damn True]

Open track, or open road?

[Derek69SS]

Have a "bolt-on only" suspension class... that would be cars using only bolt-ons, no custom fabbed stuff, other than maybe boxing a frame, and adding strength to weak points, etc. No tubs or mini-tubs, nothing that requires cutting and welding, etc.

award bonus points for amateur built cars. :unibrow:

[Bill Howell]

A SEMA meeting would certainly get the ball rolling. If y'all do anything on the east coast and want some help, let me know. I put a pretty good time together here in Pigeon Forge for the protouring board. One suggestion, a get together that does not include competition is not a bad thing, especially for a first event. You gotta warm folks up to getting together before you can expect a large crowd to compete. We had a great time just bench racing, cleaning on our sleds and "driving" to dinner. Of course I live in a place that ain't bad for "driving" to dinner. :unibrow:

[XcYZ]

This has really got my attention. We need to form a committe to layout rules, classes, and location.
I think we need to have at least 2 classes, one for bolt on mods, and one for tube chassis cars. I'd love for this to be an event for manufacturers to show off their products and vehicles, but it would be more fun to have the whole club involved.

So? What are we going to do to make this happen?

Tyler

I'm all for it, I think it's a great idea.

IMHO, if you really want to shake down the cars and see what suspension setup is the best, I'd think you'd want the same driver in every car.

[MaxHarvard]

Count me in on the "bolt-on" only class... LOL i dont have the expertise to do anything fancy like you guys.

[radrambler]

guys my opinion


we should plan a get-to-gether event.an annual event that shows people the outstanding group of members and rides(steve can cover it in phr) right steve?..competition is great if you have enough ready and able rides ...lets try and organize a meeting of the members and cars and see what response that brings first....imo.....i think youll have a million opinions on a competition rules and it might get a nuts....and we all know (charlies rides will kick all of ours ass).
so SCOTT WHAT CAN WE DO? LATERAL-G MASTER!!!!!!

RADRAMBLER

[race-rodz]

we need to figure out what "events" would do a good job of showing a well rounded car. obviously drag racing, and a road coarse, would be the big events. skid pad testing is pretty easy to calculate, as is brake testing. a mandatory "cruise" could be used for determining fuel mileage.

the classes could be broke down into level of mods catagory. no-tubs, bolt on only parts(excluding items welded for safety...like s.f.c's) mildly modded, mini tubs, engineered suspension set-ups(complete reworked subframe instead of bolt on upgrades) then the unlimited class...where anything goes.

all cars must be true street cars, registered and insured.

[ProdigyCustoms]

We are in for whatever. I guess what I was thinking was a magazine quality put up or shut up head to head manufactures competition. My stuffs better the your stuff, JustBringIt! Maybe that could be done inside of a general membership competition to allow everyone to have fun. I say it is a open event, to many classes does not find a winner. Speaking of winner, what are we looking for?

In todays world, Scott would need to look at liabilities before sanctioning such an event.

[Steve1968LS2]

This has really got my attention. We need to form a committe to layout rules, classes, and location.
I think we need to have at least 2 classes, one for bolt on mods, and one for tube chassis cars. I'd love for this to be an event for manufacturers to show off their products and vehicles, but it would be more fun to have the whole club involved.

So? What are we going to do to make this happen?

Tyler

Hmmm.. how could PHR be involved? Maybe in determining classes? Arbitrator?

Where would it be held?

[MaxHarvard]

Hmmm.. how could PHR be involved? Maybe in determining classes? Arbitrator?

Where would it be held?

Minnesota :D :D :D :unibrow:

[radrambler]

Minnesota :D :D :D :unibrow:

MINNEWHAT?....HOW NICE OF YOU TO OFFER YOUR BACK YARD!!!! HAHAHAHAH
THIS WILL BE THE NEXT BIG HEADACHE........WHEN AND WHERE...

SOMETHING (CENTRAL U.S.) LOCATED WOULD BE GOOD.

[Streetking]

I guess I could find something to bring out.. :unibrow:

A few years ago, there was a event called the Texas Triatholon. The first year, street tires only, autocross, road racing and drag racing. It was based on a points system and the best overal car won. The first year I won it in a bone stock '99 Viper GTS. There were about 40 cars and there were several cars faster then my Viper at the drag strip, but I won the other two events so I took the overall win.

I would be so in on this, there is nothing better than spending time in your car at the track.

If you want to have it here in TX. I could help getting tracks here..

SW

[RussMS]

Even though I still dont have a car, I would love to help out and be involved in this. Since I am a CPA, I can keep score for free if needed. (Not judge, just tabulate the votes.)

Even if you don't need a scorekeeper, I will try to make this. Sounds like a lot of fun.

[Steve Chryssos]

Well, you're gonna have a lot of cars showing up in FLA for Power Tour, right. So why not run the challenge right before the tour and then? Take a nice leisurely drive up to Jersey.

[XcYZ]

Recently I've been approached by a magazine about Lateral-g being heavily involved with an event like this that currently in planning. I won't give any details because it's been discussion only to this point, but I wanted you guys to know that I think this is an awesome idea and I'll support it in any means possible and that there's a good chance that something like this might just happen. :)

:lateral:

[Stuart Adams]

Is there a section for posers?

[67Sally]

if you really want to shake down the cars and see what suspension setup is the best, I'd think you'd want the same driver in every car.

I would think that something derived from what they do on TOP GEAR would be nice; at least for the manufactures/builders class. The only results that get on the board are those from the "stick" or what ever that guy goes by.

In todays world, Scott would need to look at liabilities before sanctioning such an event.

Make all participants sign a form much like the ones that are signed for activities like skydiving....."If anything happens it is your fault (the participant), if it is proven to be my fault (the sponsor) you (the participant) are liable for all expences resulting from incident."

Is there a section for posers?
:lolhit:

W.

[race-rodz]

i think different classes would be warranted.... otherwise why go. would i want to take my bolt-on modded driver 65 mustang to compete againt a full tube chassis barley street legal race car like my 34 truck.

keeping the classes very broad would be key, like i said earlier..... bolt on mods, engineered mods, unlimited.

the major downfall i see to a "hired gun" pro driver is...... why would somebody want to transport thier car 1/2 way accross the country, pay an entry fee...and watch somebody else thrash on thier car. however...if you supplied a driver with your car...who cares where they came from.

i would think this would be a "braggin rights only" kinda deal. in an effort to keep costs down. im sure there would be no shortage of volunteers to help with track work, tech inspections, and whatever else comes up.

i would think keeping the rules to a minimum... most of which would be pertaining to safety(tech) obviously there would have to be some guidelines.... but knowing these are all street cars.... i wouldnt expect to fallow nhra/scca rules to a "T".... just as a basis.

sooooooooo looks like texas is pretty much in the middle...and if SW has the hook ups....... then this sounds like a logical deal.

[Streetking]

sooooooooo looks like texas is pretty much in the middle...and if SW has the hook ups....... then this sounds like a logical deal.

Guys, I do have the hook ups here. I could get Texas World Speedway for the roadcourse/ autocross and River City Raceway for the drag part..

I think this needs to be for "street" cars, not full blown race cars. Everyone should drive their own car..

Lets do it...

SW

[USAZR1]

I'd love to do Texas World in my El Camino. :yes: :thumbsup: That is,if SW promises not to do a 140mph 360degree spin in front of me again. :D :D
Man,that was wild enough to grow hair on a billiard ball.

[Musclerodz]

wild enough to grow hair on a billiard ball.
:lolhit:

There needs to be 2 classes. "Aftermarket over the counter bolt-ons", and unlimited, Unlimited must be street legal and insured. You may even consider an invitational to intise DSE, ATS, and others to put their products up to the test.

TX would be good for me. There is also Hallet in Tulsa, Ok which is a good track from what I have been told. Thunder Valley in Noble, Ok for 1/4 mile.

I agree, some of us need to finish our cars first.

Mike

[Mean 69]

"Aftermarket over the counter bolt-ons",

What's "bolt on" considered? Not being a pest, but rather trying to spur a small amount of dialouge. Out rear kit will be similar to some of the others that require some cutting and welding, but still retains the stock frame rails. Bolt on? New front subframe for unit-body cars? Tubs?

"stick" or what ever that guy goes by

I think you are referring to the "Stig?" I have never seen the show, but I can tell you, after reading his book on how he clawed his way to drive F1 (the book is called Flat out, Flat Broke: F1 The Hard Way, it is a must read), Perry McCarthy ain't driving my car!!!! It won't take long to realize that having a race car driver offers goods, and "bads." I know a lot of highly capable shoes out here in So. Cal should the need arise (even met Boris earlier this year, turns out he lives 5 miles from me?!), and it's clear many others do too. Just remember, to us, our cars are our life. To a race driver, the car is merely a tool, and they treat them as such.

Timeframe? Our first gen is ready in a couple weeks, but the second gen is months out, probably ready in Feb/March/April?

Mark

[ProdigyCustoms]

I think Texas is good. I am all for SW hosting the first annual Lateral G Challenge! Prodigy Customs would put a few bucks in the winners pot!

We do a strret car drag race here in town every 2 months called the No Bull Nationals,NoBullNationals.com, where we get cars together, cruise 20 miles to the track, put names in a hat, line them up and shoot them down. It is pretty fun. We all put up 20 bucks, get $500 to $1000 in the pot, we change the payout, winner takes all, pay first 4 spots, etc.. We could do something similar here. Even have side pots. Some of the most fun at No Bull is watching the betting on the sidelines.

[Payton King]

First and foremost I want a spot in the poser section with Stuart. Can we have that section with velvet ropes?

Second, Texas probably makes the most sense for a national event, but Road Atlanta sure is close to me and I bet we could partner with Year One since they have both Road Atlanta and the drag strip for the Commerce Challenge in April.

Third, my car is still a long ways out and I need to spend less time at work and more on my car to have it finished by March.

Forth, this could be one huge event with manufacturer support if you want to go that way.

[PhaseShift]

I would certainly be interested in attending in this sort of event. I think it would be a ton of fun and a good way to meet a lot of the people from this and the Pro-Touring.com forum.

Being stuck in China, I have very few chances to get to any sort of motorsports events, but I really want to do one this year that would be fun as well as a motivator to get the car done.

[Derek69SS]

...I'd think you'd want the same driver in every car.
OK, you twisted my arm... I'll drive the cars. :unibrow: :willy:

So we're agreed then, Minnesota it is :thumbsup: :D

[69rs]

First and foremost I want a spot in the poser section with Stuart. Can we have that section with velvet ropes?

Second, Texas probably makes the most sense for a national event, but Road Atlanta sure is close to me and I bet we could partner with Year One since they have both Road Atlanta and the drag strip for the Commerce Challenge in April.

Third, my car is still a long ways out and I need to spend less time at work and more on my car to have it finished by March.

Forth, this could be one huge event with manufacturer support if you want to go that way.
Ooooo yeah.....Road "A"! :unibrow:

[jannes_z-28]

Being on the other side of the pond and never being able to participate :mad: I can still throw in suggestions.

In the discussions about classes I don't see anyone mentioning enginetype. I think you must divide between forced induction and normal aspiration. That is pretty easy to decide upon and then you can leave the rest. All our cars are basically built pretty much the same in other aspects.

You can't have to many classes this is just about who has the fastest car, right? And that is me :yes: :yes: :yes: :lolhit:


Jan

[MarkM66]

i think different classes would be warranted.... otherwise why go. would i want to take my bolt-on modded driver 65 mustang to compete againt a full tube chassis barley street legal race car like my 34 truck

To me, I'd be more concerned with how my car actually performed, then to be worried about how I ranked among the other cometitors. I wouldn't care if the Mule showed up and spanked my ass in every category we can come up with.

I doubt there will be any kind of grand prize to win. Just braggin rights, and saying "wow, my car ran pretty good" or "I need to make some adjustments."

No classes. No hired drivers. You drive your car. If you suck, well obviously you could use the practice. :D

I'd be fine with just an event that got as many cars together as possible (which will be a challenge in it's own right), and put them through their paces. Simple as that. If people don't come becuase they're worried about being out gunned, then that's defeating the point of trying to organize such an event.

If someone doesn't want to run the road coarse or whatever, but do the other events, that's fine, at least they're there.

No winners, no loosers. Less pressure. More attendee's. :thumbsup:

[Steve Chryssos]

No winners, no loosers. Less pressure. More attendee's. :thumbsup:


Yup. I'll settle for just making new friends and leaving some rubber behind.

[Musclerodz]

What's "bolt on" considered? Not being a pest, but rather trying to spur a small amount of dialouge. Out rear kit will be similar to some of the others that require some cutting and welding, but still retains the stock frame rails. Bolt on? New front subframe for unit-body cars? Tubs
Mark

Bolt-ons meaning parts that are parts sold to the public. Parts from DSE, ATS, Lateral Dynamics (you to), 21st Century, Wayne Due. Sure not everything is "direct" bolt on and some fabrication may be required, but it is an engineered and marketed item sold to the public. One off homebuilt stuff not allowed even it is bolt on.

Mike

[PhaseShift]

Mark M 66- Totally with you on that. More participants having a good time and enjoying good times.

No question that with my car, as the driver, I am the weakest link and I can live with that. If I embarrass myself, I would rather do it having a good time with my peers as opposed to at an autocross with a ton of hard core guys who I do not know and share little in common with.

Hope to see you and a lot of the crew there. :thumbsup:

[Stuart Adams]

Hey SW, is there a place to rent a Ferrari or Porsche close by. That would be a kick to go out a thrash the track with those cars. That would be my choice. Bring it.

[evilzee28]

Hi Guys, as I see it, the rules are really straight forward to set up. It should be devided into two classes, normally aspirated & forced induction,....... period. ALL of the cars run bigger tyres, All of the cars run bigger brakes, All of the cars are set up to run better than stock, sooooo, the fact that one car runs tubular front suspension against a stocker isn't really a consideration, as the stock suspension arm car might have a bigger hp motor anyway, levelling the playing field. You really can get lost in trying to make rules to accomodate everything. Keep it simple, NA against forced !! If needs be then add oner more class for tube framed cars/SN65 style cars.This after all is supposed to be an enjoyable day out after all. hth :unibrow:

[Steve1968LS2]

Yup. I'll settle for just making new friends and leaving some rubber behind.

Remember.. if it is considered a "competative event" then that drastically changes the liability aspect of the event..

Also, it really won't tell you who's system is best since there are far too many variables like driver, tires, alignment, etc...

If car A beats car B is it because the front suspension was better or because car A had R-compound tires? Did B beat C because B is just a better driver?

Sounds a like a fun event and if it is not TOO far away you can count me in with Penny :)

[evilzee28]

guys my opinion


....and we all know (charlies rides will kick all of ours ass).


RADRAMBLER

Not nescessarily !!, don't mean to deride the Mule, but you might be surprised at how close the competition could be..........Besides, who said that BIG RED might not wanna show up !! :thumbsup:

[XcYZ]

Sounds like this is something we can go over in detail at the Lateral-g get together at Sandlin's during SEMA. In the mean time, I'm going to make some phone calls...

[Damn True]

Hmm, I went to H.S. with Scott Pruett and see his folks from time to time.............nevermind, I haven't even started my car.

This is such a freakin great idea! ....and for the vendors, a fantastic opportunity to gain some noteriety for their particular "system".

[Derek69SS]

Bolt-ons meaning parts that are parts sold to the public. Parts from DSE, ATS, Lateral Dynamics (you to), 21st Century, Wayne Due. Sure not everything is "direct" bolt on and some fabrication may be required, but it is an engineered and marketed item sold to the public. One off homebuilt stuff not allowed even it is bolt on.
I agree to a point, but I think a "bolt-on" would have to bolt to the original frame or subframe. If Art Morrison built a full C6 vette chassis for a chevelle, I couldn't set my body on that frame and call it a "bolt-on". To me, a bolt-on suspension would retain the stock frame/subframe with minor mods and strengthening allowed, and anything goes as far as what's bolted to it such as control arms, spindles, brakes, etc.

Also, All cars should run the same street tires and chassis settings throughout the competition.
*edit for clarification* allow any street legal tire you want, but can't change tires for different competitions. You use the same 4 tires for the entire event... choose wisely, they need to perform in all aspects; drags, cornering, and ride quality.

I'd like to see something set up like RSE, but do it like this:

Car Show - 10% of the points - judge fit, finish, quality, etc. don't judge styling, that's too subjective, so a well done Gremlin with a plaid interior rolling on Keystones can score better than a poorer quality but tasteful '69 camaro

50 mile drive - 30% of total points - points taken for items that don't work, such as wipers, radio, etc. 2 points taken for each gallon of gas used. Judges ride with (and take turns in each car) scoring their ride quality, noise levels, and comfort. Take interstate, costant speed of 70mph

1/4 mile drag-race - 30% of points - scores based on the average of your best 2 of 3 runs.

Road Course - 30% of points - scores based on the average of your best 2 of 10 laps.

If you don't compete in one competition, you get 0 points for it. If you break down, or don't finish one of the competitions, you get 0 points, and are DQ'd for points in the remaining competitions.

The points system would be just a way to make some interesting magazine coverage, the real purpose of the event is to meet, have fun, and see how your car performs compared to some other members' cars.

[Payton King]

This post is getting long and I don't remember who stated it, but I like the "run what'cha brung" event. Sure there will be bragging rights, but really no need to seperate the cars. How many do you think are going to be complete and ready to roll? I will be more than happy to run my car against a 800 or 1000 hp forced induction car and if I get my butt handed to me, then I either need driving lessons, a better set up on my car or more HP. I can live with that. Rank them top to bottom and it will give you something to aspire to next year.

As far as drivers go, I would rather take my car out and enjoy it with my no driving ass, than have some hired gun flog the pee out of all my hard work. If someone is going to tear up my car I would rather it be me.(me breaking something is not in the master plan, however things do happen when you drive fast)

Never the less, If my car is finished I will do all I can to be at the event however it is set up.

[evilzee28]

I agree to a point, but I think a "bolt-on" would have to bolt to the original frame or subframe. If Art Morrison built a full C6 vette chassis for a chevelle, I couldn't set my body on that frame and call it a "bolt-on". To me, a bolt-on suspension would retain the stock frame/subframe with minor mods and strengthening allowed, and anything goes as far as what's bolted to it such as control arms, spindles, brakes, etc.

Also, All cars should run the same street tires and chassis settings throughout the competition.
*edit for clarification* allow any street legal tire you want, but can't change tires for different competitions. You use the same 4 tires for the entire event... choose wisely, they need to perform in all aspects; drags, cornering, and ride quality.

I'd like to see something set up like RSE, but do it like this:

Car Show - 10% of the points - judge fit, finish, quality, etc. don't judge styling, that's too subjective, so a well done Gremlin with a plaid interior rolling on Keystones can score better than a poorer quality but tasteful '69 camaro

50 mile drive - 30% of total points - points taken for items that don't work, such as wipers, radio, etc. 2 points taken for each gallon of gas used. Judges ride with (and take turns in each car) scoring their ride quality, noise levels, and comfort. Take interstate, costant speed of 70mph

1/4 mile drag-race - 30% of points - scores based on the average of your best 2 of 3 runs.

Road Course - 30% of points - scores based on the average of your best 2 of 10 laps.

If you don't compete in one competition, you get 0 points for it. If you break down, or don't finish one of the competitions, you get 0 points, and are DQ'd for points in the remaining competitions.

The points system would be just a way to make some interesting magazine coverage, the real purpose of the event is to meet, have fun, and see how your car performs compared to some other members' cars.

Sorry, but all that's gonna happen is make this all waaaaay too comlpicated, just keep it simple, these aren't race cars, they're YOUR street driven pride & joys. Run what ya brung!! You can't differenciate between bolt on & non bolt on 'cos then you gotta differentiate between engine size, tyre size, wheel tub size, suspension upgrades,wheel size, brake size, vehicle weight etc etc, where does it all end ??? Besides the great leveller is the big nut behind the steering wheel :unibrow: .You might have THE best set up car in the world, with ALL the bits, but you might get blown away by a car with next to no bits but with a hotshoe behind the wheel!!............Keep it simple, this is supposed to be a fun thing, it doesn't matter if you don't win 'cos the other guys got bigger, better faster this that 'n the other !!

As to the car show thing for points, this is REALLY a personal subjective thing & wouldn't work & could cause an AWFUL lot of bad feeling, same applies to the judges taking turns to ride & find out ride qualities, wind noise etc, who cares ???? It's YOUR pride & joy no one elses!! For this to work you gotta look at why you're doing it........because you wanna have some fun & see what YOUR car will do,.... period !!!, You can't compare cars' performances 'cos there are just TOO many variables & you'll never know if it's your, brakes, suspension or whatever that make the difference. The only way to ascertain what works best on a car is to change one component on your car at a time, but of course we can't do that can we?? So treat it for what it is, to show the world what YOUR car can do, all in a Run What Ya Brung way, just hope you've brought enough !!! :thumbsup:

[evilzee28]

This post is getting long and I don't remember who stated it, but I like the "run what'cha brung" event. Sure there will be bragging rights, but really no need to seperate the cars. How many do you think are going to be complete and ready to roll? I will be more than happy to run my car against a 800 or 1000 hp forced induction car and if I get my butt handed to me, then I either need driving lessons, a better set up on my car or more HP. I can live with that. Rank them top to bottom and it will give you something to aspire to next year.

As far as drivers go, I would rather take my car out and enjoy it with my no driving ass, than have some hired gun flog the pee out of all my hard work. If someone is going to tear up my car I would rather it be me.(me breaking something is not in the master plan, however things do happen when you drive fast)

Never the less, If my car is finished I will do all I can to be at the event however it is set up.

couldn't agree more!!! :thumbsup:

[Steve Chryssos]

Will there be a penalty box? I can already see myself being sent to the corner.

[Payton King]

Yea we can have a penalty box...staffed with the local Hooter girls. I think someone has not been playing very nice and needs a spankin'....oh,oh,me,me!

[69rs]

Will there be a penalty box? I can already see myself being sent to the corner.

Yeah, c'mon in. I'll save ya a spot!

[Derek69SS]

Sorry, but all that's gonna happen is make this all waaaaay too comlpicated, just keep it simple, these aren't race cars, they're YOUR street driven pride & joys. Run what ya brung!!

Yes, which is why I wrote this: :)

The points system would be just a way to make some interesting magazine coverage, the real purpose of the event is to meet, have fun, and see how your car performs compared to some other members' cars.

IMHO, There has to be some sort of "winner" for the readers to read about, and a way for the magazine to determine a winner. I'm no magazine marketing expert, but I don't think an article about a bunch of guys getting together and racing will attract as many readers as something like CC's RSE competition.

[Scotch]

The ONLY way to do this is to emulate the already-succcessful Open Track events which can be insured and open to street-licensed cars.

what that means is....it has to become a SCHOOL and not be a COMPETITION

If it becomes a RACE...I can foresee bad things...not intentional fender-banging, but maybe chances being taken that shouldn't be (which could result in the same level of bent fenders).

The BEST way I can see accomplishing anything good is to have transponders in each and every participating car for the entire day. Spread the cars out and have them race the CLOCK and only the clock. "Awards" will be for the best lap times. If you've had all day to make laps, surely one of them should show the car/driver potential. If you get hung up behind a slower car, there should be NO NEED to take a chance to pass. You'll have another chance to make a good lap, so just relax.

Having a slalom course set up and also a 200 ft. skid pad would offer more chances for timed "awards" while everyone is "learning."

I say worry LESS about classes and focus more on FUN. Everyone will know who's doing well and who could use some help. It's always quite obvious.

I will have more (maybe MUCH more) to contribute to this subject soon.

SP~

[ProdigyCustoms]

Again, I think we are spiraling out of control. What is the purpose of this competition? What went from Mean69 saying manufacturers should prove their stuff, and me throwing my name in the hat for a competition, has now gone to a version of RSE, what car / driver is baddest? That is fine, but not what originally started this thread. If we want to do a magazine shootout, the manufactures / builders should bring their cars. If we are going to have every member with a modified car come out for a competition, that is cool too. We just need to understand the difference.

[AAW]

If, for some reason, your get together happens in New Jersey (aka "Joisey") . I can put you in contact with the owner of Atco Raceway. (http://www.atcorace.com/) My husband is good friends with him...
~Theresa

[MarkM66]

Yes, which is why I wrote this: :)



IMHO, There has to be some sort of "winner" for the readers to read about, and a way for the magazine to determine a winner. I'm no magazine marketing expert, but I don't think an article about a bunch of guys getting together and racing will attract as many readers as something like CC's RSE competition.

People read magazines like Car and Driver, Motor Trend etc. all the time to see how a certain car performs. Wouldn't you like to see a car that you know about on this site, or whatever, and then actually know if all that stuff on the car actually worked?

For example; If a car with the full Global West treatment only performs slightly better then a stocker with a sway bar, I'd be interested in knowing that.

I'm interested in results.

[race-rodz]

i see this is getting really complicated in a hurry...... maybe the best way would be to throw out the classes and points, run whatcha brung kinda deal, or sit back and watch. it should be more like an informal get together than a hardcore comp event. i can see there might be too many cars to get it organized in a way for everybody to have time to do everything they want, so a pre-registered deal might have to be done... i guess it would kinda be directly in relation to how long we can play on the tracks.

i think we need to elect some chiefs to determine the basics, this way they can ask the questions when they need everyones $.02

im gonna nominate SW...as he has the hook ups for the tracks... i think he should be in the loop.

the cheifs need to be able to make the decisions for everyone, so choose wisely.... or nominate yourself

[XcYZ]

Just some thoughts off the top of my head....

Scale every car (including 4 corner weights and splits)
0 to 60 times
Quarter mile ET and MPH
0-100-0 (done on the dragtrip)

200 ft skid pad (Lateral-g)
Acceleration g on drag strip
Then multiply/factor those numbers together in some way. This to me would be very interesting. I'd like to see a car pull 1g or more on the skid pad and still put down a killer 60' time on the same tires/suspension setup.

And of course there's the road course track time, but that will only show who the better driver is.

Again, these are just some ideas off the top of my head...

[evilzee28]

People read magazines like Car and Driver, Motor Trend etc. all the time to see how a certain car performs. Wouldn't you like to see a car that you know about on this site, or whatever, and then actually know if all that stuff on the car actually worked?

For example; If a car with the full Global West treatment only performs slightly better then a stocker with a sway bar, I'd be interested in knowing that.

I'm interested in results.

Once again though you're confronted with too many parameters to determine why one car is quicker than the other. Is the faster car driver better, or is the slower driver more concerned about damaging something?.You would never tell if the Global West setup is better, or if something else is helping the car.

For sure we all want to see how the cars perform & that's all we can expect from this, it won't prove anything unless EVERYONE screws the balls off their cars (which they won't), or one driver drives all & that ain't gonna happen is it? Treat it for what it is, ......A good day out, with friends enjoying, :thumbsup: fast cars.

[Steve1968LS2]

People read magazines like Car and Driver, Motor Trend etc. all the time to see how a certain car performs. Wouldn't you like to see a car that you know about on this site, or whatever, and then actually know if all that stuff on the car actually worked?

For example; If a car with the full Global West treatment only performs slightly better then a stocker with a sway bar, I'd be interested in knowing that.

I'm interested in results.

Yea, but those are production cars and all alike.. If a car with GW stuff (for example) did poorly would it be because it was installed wrong, set-up wrong (alignment) or did the driver suck?

But, it would be interesting to see..

[Steve1968LS2]

Once again though you're confronted with too many parameters to determine why one car is quicker than the other. Is the faster car driver better, or is the slower driver more concerned about damaging something?.You would never tell if the Global West setup is better, or if something else is helping the car.

For sure we all want to see how the cars perform & that's all we can expect from this, it won't prove anything unless EVERYONE screws the balls off their cars (which they won't), or one driver drives all & that ain't gonna happen is it? Treat it for what it is, ......A good day out, with friends enjoying, :thumbsup: fast cars.

I see we are of the same thinking on this...

I like the "run what ya brung" idea with maybe two classes for regular and tube chassis cars. DOT tires with the driving tests as mentioned before. Can be trailered to the event but then has to stay off the trailer till it is over. bonus points for comfort and MPG factored in somehow.

Sounds like a fun way to blow a weekend.. I will bring the beer! (for after the racing)

[Derek69SS]

I nominate Scott, "Bouncer", "MaxHarvard", "KAA", and myself to the location-choosing committee :D (and anyone else from MN :unibrow: )

[Damn True]

Remember.. if it is considered a "competative event" then that drastically changes the liability aspect of the event..



I think the "time trial" thing that a lot of the open track organizations are using is a way to subvert the insurance problems associated with running a street car in a competition.

[Steve1968LS2]

I think the "time trial" thing that a lot of the open track organizations are using is a way to subvert the insurance problems associated with running a street car in a competition.

Yep.. although I don't even know if you can "officially" call it a timed event.. because that implies a "competition" and thus a race.

[Damn True]

i'm sure both sides of the issue (insurance companies & the open track companies) have an incomprehensible pile of legal mumbo-jumbo that absolves them each of liability. We just need a lawyer to tell us which one will stand up.

[Streetking]

Wow, this is getting a little :willy: ..

This has to be for fun, for everyone.. leave egos behind..

This needs to be a time trial/school type set up for insurance purposes.

After we run our "time trials", we can have open track time. We could have two classes, street tires and race tires. I don't think we can/need to do wheel to wheel racing. There will be people with alot of experience, some with little to none. The last thing I want to see is someone getting hurt or destroying their car..

SW

[Steve Chryssos]

I attended the IMCA Super Nationals in Boone, Iowa three few weeks ago. At the entrance to the pit gate was a sign that stated "No Crybabies". The message is that IMCA hosted the event and if any racers did not like the rules or format, they may as well stay out of the track.

The right people will need to step up and front the cash needed to host this event. These people have final say regarding the parameters of the event. Everyone else will just be guests in that hosts' "home" and can either participate or bail. That's just how things work.

[MarkM66]

Someone let me know if an event like this happens. In the meantime, I'll be hanging out with the "Posers." :D

[Edward Bednar]

Well whatever the rules 21st Century Street Machines will plan to attend. See my posting under C28 thread. Ed

[race-rodz]

just thought i would bring this back up...... you guys planning on maybe electing a commitee at sema to hammer this out?

[Nine Ball]

If this happens in TX, I'd be happy to help organize things and pick up some volunteers to help out. I have plenty of track and shop connections as well, and SW and I get along just fine :)

I agree on the magazine test format, and having separate classes based on modifications. Lap times, slalom, braking distance, and quarter-mile.

Might even be more fun (and affordable) to invite any type of rear-drive performance vehicles to play, and just have separate pro-touring classes for us. Could be a HUGE gathering of nice rides.

Tony

[Streetking]

If this happens in TX, I'd be happy to help organize things and pick up some volunteers to help out. I have plenty of track and shop connections as well, and SW and I get along just fine :)

I agree on the magazine test format, and having separate classes based on modifications. Lap times, slalom, braking distance, and quarter-mile.

Might even be more fun (and affordable) to invite any type of rear-drive performance vehicles to play, and just have separate pro-touring classes for us. Could be a HUGE gathering of nice rides.

Tony

Let's do this...

SW

[Mean 69]

I am (we are) still in too, but all of this debate about what, how, etc is making me tired. I'd suggest that folks who will actually have a 80%+ chance of having a car there and seriously participating be the ones that are involved in sorting out the format, etc. It still sounds like a meeting over lunch, or breakfast, or whatever during the SEMA week should be in order, but not coincident with the dinner events (just won't be enough time).

Is there a point person that can capably organize all of this, not just the track time, but sorting out the details and maintaining the communications, decisions, etc? I flat out can't, just not enough mental capacity, but I still think this could be a really fun thing to do. I will say though, I'd have to agree with Steve's idea of "No Crybabies."

Mark

[CarlC]

I will say though, I'd have to agree with Steve's idea of "No Crybabies." Mark

If going to the track and "losing" is going to make you cry, you're there for the wrong reasons. There is no losing at a track day unless you wreck the car or get hurt.

Count me in if the logistics work out.

Speed Ventures has on-track days where transponders are an option. No "racing", just lap times. They are a great bang-for-the-buck organization.

[race-rodz]

i wont be at sema...... but i will be at the event...assuming its not gonna happen till spring/early summer

i really hope this will be a multi day kinda deal too..... otherwise its really not worthwile to load up and drive 30+ hours each way.

[Teetoe_Jones]

I nominate Wednesday afternoon around 1:00pm for the comittee to meet during SEMA.

Tyler

[ProdigyCustoms]

Isn't everyone kinda gonna all be together at Sandlin's place anyway? Personally, I think that since it would be a branded Lateral G event, Scott has the final decision on how and what the event is. Maybe Scott could elect a event coordinator, like SW has been mentioned, and get the show on the road.

I don't know how many of you have actually tried to have a democratic meeting with a group of like minded enthusiast with such different ideas of how something should be done, but a hour only muddies things up worse. I have a little experience with this when I ran a 10,000 member club. We would have meetings at the national convention with 300 people, and at the end of the day, we just had to make the decision anyway because everyone was to split, or to far out there, or wasn't thinking about what was good for the hobby / business, but what worked well for them. Quite honestly, we decided the only way to be sure everyone was happy was to make a class for every car and put the 1st place trophy in the goodie bag. The reality is in situations like this, a dictatorship is a much better choice then a warm and fuzzy democracy. How about everyone do there politician with Scott at Steve's, let the man decide what he wants the event to be, and then we all participate if we want to. Scott should do what is best for the hobby / business. Quite honestly, the people he should be talking to are not us, but the press, to see what they would bite on.

Hours at SEMA at to precious to waste on this potential pissing match! Assuming it is east to near the center of the country, Team Prodigy will be there, no matter what.

[XcYZ]

Frank, I've talked to one magazine already and I'm sure as something like this gets more concrete, there will be even more interest.

I think before we get too worried about the rules and classes, we need to hammer out a location and a date. Once we know we have a venue, the rest will come together quickly. Texas Motor Speedway sounds like a great place if you guys have the connections. :thumbsup:

I agree with Tony, I think we should have magazine type tests:
0-60
1/4 mile
Lateral-g
Scale the car (total and front/rear split)

These type tests are not subjective nor would the drivers experience play too big of a role.

There are also some subjective areas like fit and finish, ride quality, etc, etc. Time on a road course would be fantastic, something to definitely shoot for, but I believe the numbers would be skewed towards the drivers with serious driving skills and not really showcase what does and what doesn't work.

[Streetking]

[QUOTE=ProdigyCustoms]Isn't everyone kinda gonna all be together at Sandlin's place anyway? QUOTE]

I say we talk about it there..

SW

[XcYZ]

Sandlin's will be a good place to get serious about this. A lot of the players will be there as well as some magazine people. :thumbsup:

[Nine Ball]

I won't be at SEMA this year (getting married that week), but I'll help out however I can if the event is in TX.

SW, if you have any SCCA autocross contacts, it might be cool if we could borrow their timing equipment, or possibly pay them to come out and do that for us. I know some of these guys would like to run the cones if the track isn't available.

Tony

[XcYZ]

Congrats on the upcoming wedding, Tony. Too bad about SEMA, although it probably wouldn't make for the best honeymoon. :D

[Nine Ball]

Speak for yourself! I proposed to her last year while at SEMA. I tried to convince her that Vegas would be a good honeymoon, but she didn't fall for it, haha.

I'll probably attend PRI in Dec instead.

[XcYZ]

Speak for yourself! I proposed to her last year while at SEMA. I tried to convince her that Vegas would be a good honeymoon, but she didn't fall for it, haha.

I'll probably attend PRI in Dec instead.

I took my wife to SEMA a few years ago, but she just wasn't feelin it. I think she saw enough cars and car parts to last her the rest of her life. lol

[Derek69SS]

I took my wife to SEMA a few years ago, but she just wasn't feelin it. I think she saw enough cars and car parts to last her the rest of her life. lol
...but that was before she became a member of Lateral-G. :unibrow: Now she's hooked :yes: :D

[Damn True]

Sandlin's will be a good place to get serious about this. A lot of the players will be there as well as some magazine people. :thumbsup:


Great place to turn up the heat in terms of smack-talking. You guys could set it up like a press conference before a heavyweight fight. It is Vegas after all right?


......just don't say you are going to eat anyones kids. That's just creepy. :eek:

[Musclerodz]

Since this will be at my back door basically, lets make sure my car is done first! :P

Mike

[XcYZ]

I was contacted by Tom Fuehrer, a Lateral-g member who's connected with BIR (Brainerd International Raceway) about having an event there. He spoke with Rod Wolter, the BIR General Manager, and he's all for having a pro-touring/g-machine event.

Currently BIR is in talks with the people from Fun Ford weekends regarding a FF event during Memorial Day weekend, 2006. They will be using the Paddock and drag strip that weekend. This leaves the back area of the road course open. Insurance issues could be dealth with the event being an SCCA Time Trials sanction and not a "competition" event. However, for that to work, we would have to work through a local SCCA group/club. There's a good chance that we could get the track on the Monday of the Holiday weekend and be able to setup the lights and use the dragstrip.

Some of the costs could be offset by including local or regional Vette, Viper, F-Body Clubs, etc.

I'm interested in what anyone thinks of this idea. It sounds like our window of opportunity to jump on this may be small. I'm also interested in hearing from the magazine guys (members and lurkers alike) in whether this is something they would be interested in covering.

Let's hear it. :thumbsup:

[Mean 69]

Brainerd, as in Minnesota, right? It almost feels like this wants to become a regional type deal. Down here in So. Cal, there are at least five incredible tracks within an easy drive (Laguna Seca, Buttonwillow, Willow Springs, Pahrump, Phoenix, Las Vegas, Cal Speedway). A whole bunch more a bit to the north too.

Does anyone have details on next year's One Lap, or other events like that? It might be easiest just to tag along with them? This year's Open Track Challenge got cancelled due to lack of participation, showing me that getting this sort of a deal together is not an easy feat. I think it is on for next year though, still unsure.

M

[Derek69SS]

:willy: Brainerd :yes:

[KAA]

I'm interested in what anyone thinks of this idea. Sounds like a great idea to me. :thumbsup:

Only thing I'm confused about:

They will be using the Paddock and drag strip that weekend. This leaves the back area of the road course open. Are you thinking of using the road course at the same time the drag strip is running? Not sure how that would work.

[Kris Horton]

I believe the "dragstrip" he's talking about is the long straightaway portion of the road course.

[Derek69SS]

I believe the "dragstrip" he's talking about is the long straightaway portion of the road course.

It looks like the long straightaway doubles as the return road for the drag strip... or are the pits separating them???
http://brainerdracewayandresort.com/racer/trackspecs/trackmap.html

Look up Keith's videos of him passing vettes on the road course at B.I.R. :hail: He posted them a few weeks ago. :willy:

[KAA]

I believe the "dragstrip" he's talking about is the long straightaway portion of the road course. Exactly. That's why I was wondering how we'd run the road course while the dragstrip was being used.

[XcYZ]

I'm only passing along what Tom told me. I've never been there, I don't know how it all works out.

[67Sally]

........I think you are referring to the "Stig?" I have never seen the show, but I can tell you, after reading his book on how he clawed his way to drive F1 (the book is called Flat out, Flat Broke: F1 The Hard Way, it is a must read), ............Mark

Thanks for the title Mark; I'll add it to my Christmas list as a library addition.
W.

[Tom Fuehrer]

Hey guys, I thought I'd speak directly about one possibility for the G-Machine Challenge.

First, a quick background about who I am. I'm a closet Pro-Touring fan (Yes, I too own a '69 Camaro Pro-Touring project) and I also race a '95 Mustang in SCCA and Midwestern Council race events. I'm the Regional Executive of Land O' Lakes Region SCCA. I have also been the main organizer of 3 race events over the last 2 years, one SCCA Driver's School / Regional race and also 2 un-sanctioned race/lapping events.

I wrote to Scott a couple months ago suggesting an event to showcase the abilities of the current crop of G-Machines. I'm sure I'm not alone in the thought that an event to prove the capabilities of these cars is way overdue. Show cars have car shows. Pro Street cars have drag racing. What do Pro-Touring cars have?

Many of you have brought your cars to lapping events and that is a great way to see first hand what your car (and you) can do. I'd bet many of you have autocrossed, another example of using many of the capabilities of you and your car.

While lapping gets you onto a racetrack, running timed laps is usually frowned on in an officially capacity, usually because insurance companies who cover the organizers of the even like to think of this type of event as learning experience. Start adding "competition" and it changes the potential for people to hurt themselves and decreases the willingness for typical insurers to cover your event.

Autocross is a timed event, but a typical Solo event isn't a good match for these high horsepower, relatively heavy vehicles. Wheel to wheel racing isn't going to work without everybody having cages and other safety equipment and also a competition license though some sanctioning body. Not to mention the risk of contact between cars damaging your car.

What I think is a great type of event to see how these cars compare against each other is timed event on a portion of a track, using the SCCA Time Trials program (or something like it). Many of you may be familiar with the SCCA Solo 1 program, basically an autocross on a race track. SCCA will sanction and insure this type of event. TT events are open to non-SCCA members and the level of preparation is similar to Solo 2. You can run street cars and modified cars. We could use the TT classes and rules or create our own.

What I suggested to Scott is to use the back side of BIR as a 7 turn “course”, think of it as a flat hill-climb. If you are familiar with BIR, picture a standing start somewhere between turn 1 and 2, run through turns 2,3,4,5,6,7 and somewhere in the turn 8/9 complex have a finishing line. Leave the track at the convenience store area, and follow the service roads back to the starting line to make your next run. This segment of track is probably over 1 ½ miles (BIR is 3 miles total).

This course has a couple fairly long straight sections, simple corners and has a pretty fair amount of run-off area. You can do you best Stig impersonation on the same asphalt that Mark Donahue, Swede Savage and George Folmer battled on in the original Trans Am series.

This type of event could be held at many tracks across the country. BIR is my choice since I’m close and I’m directly involved organizing other events there in 2006. If BIR lands the Fun Ford Weekend deal over Memorial Weekend holding our event in conjunction with it has a lot of merit. It would allow spectators a huge variety of cars to look at and there would be magazine people there to cover the event. It would also give some of our vendors an opportunity to take part in whatever manufacturer’s midway the FF people set up. There is an assumption the FF people would allow non Fords onto the grounds of the track. The G-Machine Challenge wouldn’t be directly organized by them but close coordination would be essential.

There are a ton of details to work out for something like this, but an early start and a bunch of enthusiasm will work in our favor.

If this doesn’t work for Brainerd I’d be happy to help others organize this type of event in other parts of the country although it would be tough for me to be directly involved.

I think it’s important that “somebody” stage an event like this!

Tom Fuehrer

[Mean 69]

Tom just IMMEDIATELY got my vote as event concept organizer. The appeal of such an event without significant time on a road type course, really loses its luster for us, this idea is a terrific one that would be the best compromise I have heard yet. If you've been to a track day, you will undoubtedly complain about the lap that "could have been" if there wasn't traffic, or the car wasn't overheating, this that or the other. As well, you don't really know what the other folks are going to do, don't get me wrong, it is a blast, but there are distractions.

I like the concept, it is a really good one and would satisfy our desires for characterization of the cars. Without something like this, we'd be a whole lot less interested.

M

[Huxsol81]

Is there a section for posers?

are you calling me out Stuart?? lol