cheap subframe?

[jcal87]

From what i have gotten on here is dse is the way to go. Hiedts is the red headed step child thats no good. What about Art morrison, or "totalcost involved"? Because i would love to do the dse subframe but i just dont have 7 grand laying around to do it. Are there any cheaper subframes that are still good quality? I want the total package 12 or 13 in brakes a arms just about everything to put me on the road. Its for a 68 camaro.

heres the car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h1762YX7-E

[Mkelcy]

Are there cheaper subframes? Yes, the stock subframe. Why do you think you need an aftermarket subframe?

[jcal87]

because i want somthing that handles well and can carve corners and from what i hear thats the only way to go but im very new to this so by all means if im wrong please school me.

[awr68]

Art Morrison is very nice as well as Speed Tech.....it really depends on if you want aftermarket control arms or C5/C6 arms, what your budget and over all goal is. These frames as well as DSE's allow for large brakes and wide tires and have rack & pinion steering. They all have different geometry gains over stock. Also, Jake's Rod Shop is now offering a subframe.

Speed Tech (http://www.speedtech-performance.com/) fit my needs.

[awr68]

The stock frame can be worked over to handel well...but you will always be limited to tire width...if you want full turning radious. It just comes down to what you want out of the end product...and what your budget allows.

[jcal87]

i do want the c5 or c6 brakes and aswell as rack & pinion steering i want to do the full pro touring treatment i was hopeing to do this for around 3 grand but by the looks of things its not gonna happen

[Mkelcy]

i do want the c5 or c6 brakes and aswell as rack & pinion steering i want to do the full pro touring treatment i was hopeing to do this for around 3 grand but by the looks of things its not gonna happen

Again, why do you want a rack? Have you considered upgrading your steering box? I'm not opposed to aftermarket - I've got a 21st Century Street Machine subframe and the LD 3 link (the best of the best) in a '68 project that's in paint jail now; but "aftermarket subframe" and "budget" just don't go together, because any of the pro-touring subframes are going to be in the $6k-$7k range.

Carl Casanova has 275-45-17's on his stock subframed car. Many of us are running 245-45-17's and C5 brakes on our stock subframed cars.

If you want to see what these cars can do, come up for the "Cruise the Crest" event in Los Angeles on February 15th. (Look at the Pro-touring board.) You'll have to get up REALLY early, but you may decide the stock subframe will be just fine.

[Vegas69]

3k budget....you need to mod the stock sub and you will much better off.

[jcal87]

Yeah i might just do that cause my only other options would be to try to find used or save..

[jcal87]

i have looked on this web site for the pro touring board to get more info on that "cruise the crest" event but cant seem to find it because i would really be interested in going to that

[zbugger]

Try right here.

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50886

And yes, you can do plenty to your stock subframe to get some MUCH better handling. It just takes a bit of research to get the right information.

[Mkelcy]

i have looked on this web site for the pro touring board to get more info on that "cruise the crest" event but cant seem to find it because i would really be interested in going to that

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51796

The last time we went there were 9 cars, including 2 supercharged Camaros. It's a great run up some incredible mountain roads.

[mazspeed]

You can go to the lat g and ebay and all the car websites and see if you can find a wayne due for sale. I see them once in a while that come up for sale.

[Spiffav8]

I run a stock sub with C5 breaks, Global West control arms and a set of ATS tall spindles. My car also has the updated/upgraded steering box and it drives great! Several of he members here on the board have driven my car and they have all been amazed. Sure there's a lot more that could be done, but like you I was on a budget for my build.

I say get the most bang for you buck with what you have.

[68protouring454]

Even at 3k you will be hard pressed to completely build up your factory frame with a coil over conversion, tubular arms etc.

[awr68]

This guy might be willing to make a deal?
WD frame 4-sale (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=17746&highlight=Wayne+Due)

FWIW, I am one of the guys that have driven Curtis' car and thought it drove great! YOu could go with his exact stup or upgrade to a coilover conversion from DSE or possibly ATS has some left. Contact Tobin at kore3 (http://www.kore3.com/) for brakes if you want to go with GM parts. And as stated earlier there is nothing wrong with an upgraded steering box. On a budget you can have a great driving car!

[ProdigyCustoms]

The least expensive quality subframe you can buy is Speedtech. $4800.

If you want to upgrade your front sub, you can do a lot with these parts. We have sold and installed a lot of these packages and they work very well.

Speedtech upper and lower arms (lowers don't do anything, just look cool)
Ride Tech Tall Spindles (help correct camber gain and lowers the car 1 1/2")
Hotchkis springs
Hotchkis shocks
Hotchkis Premium Steering Kit
Hotchkis Tie Rod stiffeners
DSE 600 steering box and rag joint (feels damn near like a R and P)
Hotchkis sway bar

You can do this for $2500! and you have a very good performaing subframe that will lower the stance also.

[rwhite692]

If you are willing to be patient, and you are diligent, you will find a deal.

just watch the "for sale" sections of the various forums, craigslist, etc. and have your cash ready.

There are a lot of folks re-prioritizing these days and selling stuff. I picked up my WD sub (pics in links below) this way, a year or so ago.

[jcal87]

alright thanx guys alotta knowledge on here i will continue to read the for sale portion and keep researching....just wanna do it right the first time...:D

[skatinjay27]

The least expensive quality subframe you can buy is Speedtech. $4800.

If you want to upgrade your front sub, you can do a lot with these parts. We have sold and installed a lot of these packages and they work very well.

Speedtech upper and lower arms (lowers don't do anything, just look cool)
Ride Tech Tall Spindles (help correct camber gain and lowers the car 1 1/2")
Hotchkis springs
Hotchkis shocks
Hotchkis Premium Steering Kit
Hotchkis Tie Rod stiffeners
DSE 600 steering box and rag joint (feels damn near like a R and P)
Hotchkis sway bar

You can do this for $2500! and you have a very good performaing subframe that will lower the stance also.i agree for the most part (esp with the speedtech brand arms)but gotta ask.
why ride techs spindles over ATS??? they will still be avalible.
and why a "dse" 600 box thats a regular assembly line 600 box over a ATS lee speq'ed box or sc&c's lee speq'ed box??? i believe the price is the same or even less.

[Heidts#14]

From what i have gotten on here is dse is the way to go. Hiedts is the red headed step child thats no good. What about Art morrison, or "totalcost involved"? Because i would love to do the dse subframe but i just dont have 7 grand laying around to do it. Are there any cheaper subframes that are still good quality? I want the total package 12 or 13 in brakes a arms just about everything to put me on the road. Its for a 68 camaro.

heres the car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h1762YX7-E

Ouch!!!!! Red headed step child thats no good? Who is saying this because that is far from true. Of course I work for Heidts and I am going to back up our products, but believe me........we did our research on these and did a hell of a job. I am personally very VERY impressed with what we have out for the muscle cars and what is still to come. :thumbsup: I want to know what makes us the lower end.........why is our product junk, crap, no good? Feel free to pm me. This is stuff we need to know.

[Rybar]

I would also recommend the Speedtech subframe. Seems like a good value and quality.

[98ssnova]

I don't cheap subframs would be the right choice. I think you are looking for more popular. Most members here do have DSE, AM, and also Heidts. I personally went the stock sub route for now because it was the best value for PT that was in my budget. And unless you are going all out at track events then a stock sub will be fine with some good upgrades. Well just my .02 and if I were you just search this site for older threads on this topic you will find good reviews on all of the subs it really just come down to what you want.:cheers:

[VP23271]

jcal87,

Check out the "One Lap Camaro" project. He stuck with the stock subframe and modified it to coilovers with some Chicane brackets from ATS.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=5637&highlight=onelapcamaro

I am going the same route and it should be more than enough for me. I am also adding a Lee power steering box, Global West upper and lower arms plus ATS tall spindles.

[dhutton]

jcal87,

Check out the "One Lap Camaro" project. He stuck with the stock subframe and modified it to coilovers with some Chicane brackets from ATS.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=5637&highlight=onelapcamaro

I am going the same route and it should be more than enough for me. I am also adding a Lee power steering box, Global West upper and lower arms plus ATS tall spindles.

I think he used the ATS Chicane LM kit which if I remember correctly costs $4900 plus the labor to weld in the coilover brackets. Once you're done it is essentially as good as the DSE and AME offerings from what I have read.

Don

[jcal87]

not worried about welding labor went to welding school for three years can do everything but tig and i have even dabbled in that a bit just wouldnt call myself a expert

[Musclerodz]

I think he used the ATS Chicane LM kit which if I remember correctly costs $4900 plus the labor to weld in the coilover brackets. Once you're done it is essentially as good as the DSE and AME offerings from what I have read.

DonAnd will never be another since Tyler discontinued that kit nearly a year ago.

[Dukeofsho]

From what i have gotten on here is dse is the way to go. Hiedts is the red headed step child thats no good. What about Art morrison, or "totalcost involved"? Because i would love to do the dse subframe but i just dont have 7 grand laying around to do it. Are there any cheaper subframes that are still good quality? I want the total package 12 or 13 in brakes a arms just about everything to put me on the road. Its for a 68 camaro.

heres the car

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h1762YX7-E

I wouldn’t call an aftermarket suspension innovator that’s been in business for 25 years a red headed step child. I wonder where these other suspension guys will be in 25 years. If you take a look at Super Chevy Mag (issue 1/09) they ran a 43.75 in the autocross. That’s more than 4 seconds faster than the C5 vette they tested. That’s one mean stepchild :thumbsup:. I know of a local dealer that was offering some real good deals on Hiedts packages. Not only that I have yet to wait longer than a couple days for their kits to be delivered.
PM sent;)

I have no clue why there is such negativity against Hiedts. When I was wet behind the ears (over a decade ago) their tech line spent over an hour with me explaining suspension geometry. To this day the Hiedts tech line has been very informative.

I should stop building cars and go into marketing!

[dhutton]

And will never be another since Tyler discontinued that kit nearly a year ago.


It's still on their website so I assumed it was still available. The price listed is $4750.

Don

[ironworks]

Heidt's, TCI and Fatman are all based off a suspension design from 30 years ago. The spindle is short, in most of the aftermarket mustang II kits there is no anti dive built into the suspension. The short length of the control arm also limits travel which mean you need a stiffer spring. Plus the camber gain is really fast due to short control arms. Plus they are just made withs maller tubing and therefore not as strong. There are alot of other popular suspensions that have gone by the ways side due what is currently avalible. The C4 corvette stuff, why would you ever run that stuff when the price of a replacement ball joint is more then a brand new control arm with ball joints and bushings and the A arm. The avaliblity of the brakes for the C6 out numbers the C4 10-1.

Technology has come a long ways in the past 10 years and you can see it in the products that are currently avalible on the market. The Mustang II design is like the Small Block chevy it still has its place but there are much better coices to made for the money.

Heidts may have some new products coming out that will set the world on it's ear, but they will ahve to be proven the days of having and old car that has updated suspension that drives like crap are over with, with as far as the bar has been raised in the past 10 years.

[Dukeofsho]

Technology has come a long ways in the past 10 years and you can see it in the products that are currently avalible on the market. The Mustang II design is like the Small Block chevy it still has its place but there are much better coices to made for the money.

The numbers speak for themself. If it works why change it? When pricing comes into play its the best system for the money! Why pay thousands more?
Were in a recession right?

[skatinjay27]

The numbers speak for themself. If it works why change it? When pricing comes into play its the best system for the money! Why pay thousands more?
Were in a recession right?
what numbers??? the ONE shoot out test?
cause its sure not goemetry number... i have yet to see heidts provide and REAL information about their suspension products aside from "g-machine handling"
as far as the shoot out goes, obviously you dont really know mary, she's an extemly nice induvidual with a kind way with word.
im not say the car was probabaly a piece but Im sure deep down she feel that heidts car couldnt hold a candle to the dse 2nd gen!
remember she said it was a nice street car.

[Dukeofsho]

what numbers??? the ONE shoot out test?
cuase its sure not goemetry number... i have yet to see heidts provide and REAL information about their suspension products aside from "g-machine handling"
as far as the shoot out goes... obviously you dont really know mary P, she's an extemly nice induvidual with a kind way with word.
im not say the car was probabaly a piece but IM sure deep down she feel that heidts car couldnt hold a candle to the dse 2nd gen!
remember she said it was a nice street car.

OK, Please read SLOWLY>>>> When pricing comes into play its the best system for the money! Why pay thousands more?
Were in a recession right?

Which means: Its the best buy for the buck.

Plus, no where did I claim to know Mary P.

Come on... did you read the whole thread???:rolleyes:

[skatinjay27]

OK, Please read SLOWLY>>>> When pricing comes into play its the best system for the money! Why pay thousands more?
Were in a recession right?

Which means: Its the best buy for the buck.

Plus, no where did I claim to know Mary P.

Come on... did you read the whole thread???:rolleyes:no where did i indicate you know mary... i was refering to the fact that your using the shootout info for your argument in which the car was tested by mary...

NO... its not the best buy for the buck!
an aftermarket equiped factory sub frame will be the best bang for the buck...
as of right now the heidts is just a "hey i got an afermarket subframe!" type of deal... if you wanna settle for that, then i guess it works.



also to be noted just cause a company start building parts for "muscle car" doesnt mean thier all of a sudden all about performance!
i dont know about others but when i use the term "street rod" company i dont just mean 32 fords... i mean FORM OVER FUNCTION. be it a 69 camaro/70 nova/tri-five etc

also rodgers post was a great post and hit the nail on the head... take it or leave it.

[zbugger]

How's this Jay. I do know Mary. I've spoken with her at length about the Heidts Camaro. She definitely liked it. There were things about both the DSE car and the Heidts car that she didn't like, but were things that could be fixed, and probably have been already. Apparently the Heidts car is plenty capable of handling itself. She LOVED the DSE car, but I don't think that's the point here. I've also spoken with Mark, the owner of Heidts. He's dedicated to making his components perform. He's very into the performance side of things and is making the moves to get there. He did spend time at a track doing some tuning to get the car ready for the Super Chevy Shootout. He wants in bad and I think their stuff could very well be capable pretty soon.

[zbugger]

Oh, and I'm not speaking for either of them. Just stating my knowledge of the items at hand.

[66LS7]

I am using a full line of Heidts products on my 70 Camaro build. I have been in there factory. The quality of there work is as good as anyones. I have talked personally face to face with there engineers about chassis geometry. The head engineer works with race teams in his free time. I have also talked with Mark the new owner of Heidts & he is a real car guy not just some guy behind a desk, he's out there working side by side with his engineers to bring customers a great product for there hard earned dollars. I say lets see what comes from future testing from my own car & others. See Ya out on the track.:lateral:




Randy(D&Z Customs LLC.)

[Steve1968LS2]

Heidt's, TCI and Fatman are all based off a suspension design from 30 years ago. The spindle is short, in most of the aftermarket mustang II kits there is no anti dive built into the suspension. The short length of the control arm also limits travel which mean you need a stiffer spring. Plus the camber gain is really fast due to short control arms. Plus they are just made withs maller tubing and therefore not as strong. There are alot of other popular suspensions that have gone by the ways side due what is currently avalible. The C4 corvette stuff, why would you ever run that stuff when the price of a replacement ball joint is more then a brand new control arm with ball joints and bushings and the A arm. The avaliblity of the brakes for the C6 out numbers the C4 10-1.

Technology has come a long ways in the past 10 years and you can see it in the products that are currently avalible on the market. The Mustang II design is like the Small Block chevy it still has its place but there are much better coices to made for the money.

Heidts may have some new products coming out that will set the world on it's ear, but they will ahve to be proven the days of having and old car that has updated suspension that drives like crap are over with, with as far as the bar has been raised in the past 10 years.


FAST FACTS:

1. Heidts second gen front subframe is NOT thier first gen subframe.. new design.

2. Gary Heidt, who owned Heidts for 25 years doesn't any more.. new people own the company.

3. The Heidts 2nd gen Camaro had the second fastest autocross time (not counting mine) that day. The DSE car was faster by a tad.. Mary really like both cars and Mary knows what the hell "good" is. If she had to pic one to take home I think she would have chose the DSE car, but she would have been happy to have the Heidts car.

4. 90% of the people on the internet who argue about this crap will never push there car to even 70% or its potential. lol

5. Don't worry about cost.. worry about VALUE.

Ok, off my soapbox :)

[Roblee67]

I am in the process of building my 68 camaro and I purchased a complete heidts sub frame for it before it went up to over $4200 ( when I got it it was still $3700!!)...I did this after looking at many of the others that were out there too, for what i am building I found it to be the right choice for me...I AM on a budget and by comparison to the THOUSANDS more I would have spent going elsewhere I am completely satisfied by the quality of the Heidts set up that I received, and i was very happy with the service and tech help I received from Mark and the rest of the crew when calling them about any questions I had.......I am sure that ALL of the aftermarket sub frames and their guys are great, But I definatly dont see any reason to call the heidts products the "Red-headed step child"!!!

[66LS7]

FAST FACTS:

1. Heidts second gen front subframe is NOT thier first gen subframe.. new design.

2. Gary Heidt, who owned Heidts for 25 years doesn't any more.. new people own the company.

3. The Heidts 2nd gen Camaro had the second fastest autocross time (not counting mine) that day. The DSE car was faster by a tad.. Mary really like both cars and Mary knows what the hell "good" is. If she had to pic one to take home I think she would have chose the DSE car, but she would have been happy to have the Heidts car.

4. 90% of the people on the internet who argue about this crap will never push there car to even 70% or its potential. lol

5. Don't worry about cost.. worry about VALUE.

Ok, off my soapbox :)

I hope to be in the 10% that does. & I'm not argueing about who's better, I think everyone has a space to play in the big sand box.



Randy(D&Z Customs LLC.) 1-262-347-9741

[lil427z]

martz chassis.
rick k

[skatinjay27]

im not saying its crap im not even here to bash them... for me its just gonna take a lot more than someone "saying" thier all about function,and fancy marketing phrase's like "g-machine" to prove to me they really are engineering these with performance at the top of thier list. if they are good...but prove it.

as far as the heidts 2nd yea it did good... but were not talking about a 1st gen either, i mean how much better to you actually think thier car would perform over a stock sub /leaf car???

[Heidts#14]

im not saying its crap im not even here to bash them... for me its just gonna take a lot more than someone "saying" thier all about function,and fancy marketing phrase's like "g-machine" to prove to me they really are engineering these with performance at the top of thier list. if they are good...but prove it.

as far as the heidts 2nd yea it did good... but were not talking about a 1st gen either, i mean how much better to you actually think thier car would perform over a stock sub /leaf car???

I am really glad you asked.....

Stock subframe- 2 degrees caster, camber loss

Our subframe- 6-7 degree caster, Increased camber gain (thank you pro-g tall spindle), Increased anti-dive.

Please please please do not confuse this with mustang II geometry. It is FAR from MustangII geometry. :thumbsup:

[Teetoe_Jones]

I am really glad you asked.....

Stock subframe- 2 degrees caster, camber loss

Our subframe- 6-7 degree caster, Increased camber gain (thank you pro-g tall spindle), Increased anti-dive.

Please please please do not confuse this with mustang II geometry. It is FAR from MustangII geometry. :thumbsup:

Got any more detailed specs?

How much negative camber gain in degrees per inch of travel?

What is your total bumpsteer figure? (don't even think about saying zero)

What are your recommended alignment specs for street? How about a race setting?

What is the widest front tire you can run on the frame?

Tyler

[Heidts#14]

Got any more detailed specs?

How much negative camber gain in degrees per inch of travel?

What is your total bumpsteer figure? (don't even think about saying zero)

What are your recommended alignment specs for street? How about a race setting?

What is the widest front tire you can run on the frame?

Tyler

Hey Tyler,

Camber gain is -.68 degrees per inch

Bumpsteer .030 inches @ 1"

street set up- minimum 3 degrees caster, -1/4 degree camber, 1/16 toe out, with a 1" swaybar

race set up- minimum 5 degrees caster, -1/2 degree camber, 1/16 to 1/8 toe out, with a 1 1/4" swaybar.

Also I checked out your site and looks like you have some really nice products yourself. Looking forward to share some info with you.:cheers:

[zcrz]

I love this stuff...this is good info:) What is the largest tire size for the Heidt's frame?

[David Pozzi]

Heidt's, TCI and Fatman are all based off a suspension design from 30 years ago. The spindle is short, in most of the aftermarket mustang II kits there is no anti dive built into the suspension. The short length of the control arm also limits travel which mean you need a stiffer spring. Plus the camber gain is really fast due to short control arms. Plus they are just made withs maller tubing and therefore not as strong. There are alot of other popular suspensions that have gone by the ways side due what is currently avalible. The C4 corvette stuff, why would you ever run that stuff when the price of a replacement ball joint is more then a brand new control arm with ball joints and bushings and the A arm. The avaliblity of the brakes for the C6 out numbers the C4 10-1.

Technology has come a long ways in the past 10 years and you can see it in the products that are currently avalible on the market. The Mustang II design is like the Small Block chevy it still has its place but there are much better coices to made for the money.

Heidts may have some new products coming out that will set the world on it's ear, but they will ahve to be proven the days of having and old car that has updated suspension that drives like crap are over with, with as far as the bar has been raised in the past 10 years.

I think the Heidt second gen will change some minds, but it will take some time. Their second gen sub uses a taller spindle and works very well. I don't recall what the difference is between their second and first gen subs is. I'd rate a DSE sub as my favorite, I like Morrisons sub a lot, as well as the 21'st Century sub in Bad Penny. Jake's sub is doing very well. The Speed tech sub can use stock parts or aftermarket parts for a stock sub. Could save you money if you already have purchased some A arms, etc.

I do like a modded stock sub and will probably use one on my 67 which I'm finally working on this year. I think the only issue on a stock sub is how wide a front tire you will run and how much modifying you want to do on the inner wheel wells to fit them. On a first gen Camaro, a 275/17 can be fit, CarlC did it, but he runs a very streetable ride height. On a much lower car, It might not fly. A 69 Camaro has 1" to 1.5" more width so maybe more leeway to get it done. If you are happy with a 245 front, then the stock sub is an easy route, but that size tire is going to cost you a little time on the track or autocross, - a few tenths. For competition use, a sub with easily accessable coil over shocks, and splined end antiroll bars is a plus. Light weight spindles and A arms help both on the street and track, but the driver and a lot of other things will make more difference.

Mary did like the Heidt Camaro a lot, it was easy to drive and went fast, it felt a lot like the DSE car. Mary didn't like the feel of the steering box Heidt used.
David

[66LS7]

I am working on setting up the 2nd gen Heidts frame with 275-35-18's on the front should have some more answers coming soon on that.:lateral:


Randy(D&Z Customs LLC.)1-262-347-9741

[ironworks]

I think the Heidt second gen will change some minds, but it will take some time. Their second gen sub uses a taller spindle and works very well. I don't recall what the difference is between their second and first gen subs is. I'd rate a DSE sub as my favorite, I like Morrisons sub a lot, as well as the 21'st Century sub in Bad Penny. Jake's sub is doing very well. The Speed tech sub can use stock parts or aftermarket parts for a stock sub. Could save you money if you already have purchased some A arms, etc.

I do like a modded stock sub and will probably use one on my 67 which I'm finally working on this year. I think the only issue on a stock sub is how wide a front tire you will run and how much modifying you want to do on the inner wheel wells to fit them. On a first gen Camaro, a 275/17 can be fit, CarlC did it, but he runs a very streetable ride height. On a much lower car, It might not fly. A 69 Camaro has 1" to 1.5" more width so maybe more leeway to get it done. If you are happy with a 245 front, then the stock sub is an easy route, but that size tire is going to cost you a little time on the track or autocross, - a few tenths. For competition use, a sub with easily accessable coil over shocks, and splined end antiroll bars is a plus. Light weight spindles and A arms help both on the street and track, but the driver and a lot of other things will make more difference.

Mary did like the Heidt Camaro a lot, it was easy to drive and went fast, it felt a lot like the DSE car. Mary didn't like the feel of the steering box Heidt used.
David

I could not agree with you more and I respect your opinion alot. The fact remains just like you said these guys have alot of time to educate the general public before the will get out from behind the stereotype that they have created and promoted for 20 years. Front suspensions and bolt ons have come a long long ways in the last few years. The marketing that these companies have done and continue to say things like 0 bumpsteer which are not possible. There is going to be something. I'm still of the mind that the best modification you can do to your car is the cheapest, learn how to drive. Then put sticky tires on there. Then you can modify the suspension. 99% of the cars on this site will never be pushed far enough to even be able to tell the difference. The thing about all this auto cross testing is that the race track is a totally different enviorment as far as speeds and forces encountered. You can only tell so much at 35mph.
These subframe comparisons are really just pisssing matches, you could put a solid driver behind the wheel of junk and rookie beginner behind the wheel of the most race prepped car on the planet and the skilled driver will kill them. Everyone knows that the tech install stories are biased, just cuz it is in the magazine does not mean it will be as great as they say. I have done Alot of tech article and can tell you it is about the advertising dollars not about the product. Companies that want to prove something need to put their products in builders hands and see what they say after the install and after they have driven it on the track. I'm building a shop camaro right now to test some of the things I sell and to have a way to show people how things work. When your building a car it is a kind of unknown as to how it will really work until you get it to take it around the block and start tuning on it.

So anybody want to send me their suspension, before I build my own to go behind the 67 Camaro we started on a few weeks ago. :D :D :D

[chevyIIpost]

This is great stuff!! These are questions and comments that have been rolling around in my mind for quite some time now. Keep this thread rolling and alive. You guys with shops and real world experience please keep spreading some of your knowlege.:hail: Is any one offering or willing to do freelance suspension analysis that has the experience to back up there work??

[David Pozzi]

The Mustang II stuff was a boon to mankind when it first came out! :lol:
The short A arm lengths made it fit the old hot rods well, but they do have shortcomings.

I'm skeptical of what I read too, but for the Super Chevy test I was there and saw it all. Many of the cars were freshly built and had very little test time, issues showed up during the day that needed attention, much like any track day I've attended. I think the Morrison vette was the car I expected the most from and I think they got the short end of the stick by not having an optimum tire size available for the car. All the slalom tests were driven by Nick, who can beat all of us in a slalom contest. Mary did all the autocross runs and drove each car almost exactly the same amount. They also did a ride and drive (with other drivers) to see how streetable the cars rode.

I wouldn't focus on who went a tenth faster than someone else, it isn't a significant difference. If a car was a half second to a second slower, then I'd say it was a bit lacking somewhere, but only on that day with that driver. Change one thing and it might turn out much different. A shock setting, bar setting, tire pressure, camber, caster. I've changed a bar setting and picked up 1.5 seconds, so tuning is a key element that trumps what subframe or engine you have, unless everyone has had loads of tuning time on that pavement on that course. The Super Chevy course had both tight and higher speed left right swerves that would have made for a big long slide or spinout if you got it wrong.

Autocross really works a chassis as far as peak cornering loads, we get more body roll at an autocross than on a road course. This is from the sharper left right turns linked together you often get at an autocross. Go too slow and it takes a completely different setup to get a car around a corner. Especially if that car has a little extra front weight, or if it has a long wheelbase. The front wheels have to turn sharper and on a super tight autocross corner it's REALLY tough on a longer wheelbase car. The Air Ride Chevelle was one of the cars I rode in and was pleasantly surprised by the ride and how it handled.

I think you brought up some very valid points, the product needs to be affordable, have good handling and be easy to install with good durability adjustability and tech support. They have to be streetable because most guys are not going to risk damage to their cars on a race track. But some will and they need to stand up to the abuse.

Sorry for getting this thread off track a bit.
David

[syborg tt]

I've got a 70 Camaro that I am plan on starting soon and I've been looking very hard at the Heidts front & rear clip or a modified stock front clip with a Heidts rear clip.

So the question is how hard am I going to push the car.

Not really sure but i do plan on doing some autocross and some track days with the car. One thing that I am certain about is the fact that I am sure the chassis will out perform any skill level that I have.

The main goal for the car would be to have a more modern front and rear suspension that handles and drives well on the street and that I can still have fun with at a couple track days.

If I were to keep the stock front sub i would without a doubt buy the speed-tech upper and lower arms with ATS spindles.

So as of right now i'm still on the fence but that's okay since i'm not starting the project till summer.

[Mkelcy]

The Mustang II stuff was a boon to mankind when it first came out! :lol:
The short A arm lengths made it fit the old hot rods well, but they do have shortcomings.

I'm skeptical of what I read too, but for the Super Chevy test I was there and saw it all. Many of the cars were freshly built and had very little test time, issues showed up during the day that needed attention, much like any track day I've attended. I think the Morrison vette was the car I expected the most from and I think they got the short end of the stick by not having an optimum tire size available for the car. All the slalom tests were driven by Nick, who can beat all of us in a slalom contest. Mary did all the autocross runs and drove each car almost exactly the same amount. They also did a ride and drive (with other drivers) to see how streetable the cars rode.

I wouldn't focus on who went a tenth faster than someone else, it isn't a significant difference. If a car was a half second to a second slower, then I'd say it was a bit lacking somewhere, but only on that day with that driver. Change one thing and it might turn out much different. A shock setting, bar setting, tire pressure, camber, caster. I've changed a bar setting and picked up 1.5 seconds, so tuning is a key element that trumps what subframe or engine you have, unless everyone has had loads of tuning time on that pavement on that course. The Super Chevy course had both tight and higher speed left right swerves that would have made for a big long slide or spinout if you got it wrong.

Autocross really works a chassis as far as peak cornering loads, we get more body roll at an autocross than on a road course. This is from the sharper left right turns linked together you often get at an autocross. Go too slow and it takes a completely different setup to get a car around a corner. Especially if that car has a little extra front weight, or if it has a long wheelbase. The front wheels have to turn sharper and on a super tight autocross corner it's REALLY tough on a longer wheelbase car. The Air Ride Chevelle was one of the cars I rode in and was pleasantly surprised by the ride and how it handled.

I think you brought up some very valid points, the product needs to be affordable, have good handling and be easy to install with good durability adjustability and tech support. They have to be streetable because most guys are not going to risk damage to their cars on a race track. But some will and they need to stand up to the abuse.

Sorry for getting this thread off track a bit.
David

David: Thanks for your comments, paticularly concerning the significance (or lack thereof) in a 0.10 second difference in timed results, the differences in how a road course and autocross stress a suspension and car and the importance of keeping your eye on how you're going to use your car.

For my part, I've dismissd the Heidt's product as "hot rod" oriented, and still have some reservations about a handling subframe built arond a 2" drop spindle, but it would be exciting to have another good, reasonably priced option available and I hope Heidt's is or becomes that option.

Oh, and your comments were hardly "off topic."

[andrewmp6]

If you can afford the camaro you can afford a after market subframe.

[John510]

Has anyone used the Speedtech frame? Ive been thinking about ordering a complete one for my car.

[awr68]

Has anyone used the Speedtech frame? Ive been thinking about ordering a complete one for my car.

I am using one...but we are a few months from driving the car.

Frank has one on Empty Nest and loves it.

[XLexusTech]

I am using one...but we are a few months from driving the car.

Frank has one on Empty Nest and loves it.
Curious Tony how much did you pay for your spped Tech SUb?

[awr68]

Curious Tony how much did you pay for your spped Tech SUb?

It's no secret ST is one of my sponsors (look in my signature) therefore I did get a price break...but I can tell you this much, it wasn't free! For the record I approached Blake as I was very interested in his product, not the other way around.

Sponsorship or not it doesn't change the fact that I believe in ST's product and that I should be able to voice my opinion without being questioned.....:rolleyes:

[jcal87]

andrewmp6 If you can afford the camaro you can afford a after market sub frame. Not really i am sure there are many others on this site that have had to take many years to build there cars due to financial strain.

[John510]

Not really i am sure there are many others on this site that have had to take many years to build there cars due to financial strain.

Yup! Ive ben building mine for 2 years now. Saving all my spare money for parts. Its taking forever but whens Im done it will be awesome. Not everyone has 50+K laying around to build a car. They do it in stages.

[markss28]

I like the stock stuff but with after market bolt ons. Its cheap and works great. I would consider the Hiedts stuff because of its great prices.

[Hotchkis]

This has already been covered here, but you don't need an aftermarket subframe to run at the front of the pack. There are always those that want to bolt in all-new parts, or want the most high-zoot parts available, and we're glad there's a market for that... but if you're looking for value and performance a well-thought out complete system bolted to a stock subframe with a good set of tires will run just as hard or harder than any aftermarket sub setup on the market.

[jcal87]

How is the hotchkis tvs kit along with UCA's and LCA's does it even come close to an after market subframe? can it be used with mini tubs?

[dhutton]

How is the hotchkis tvs kit along with UCA's and LCA's does it even come close to an after market subframe? can it be used with mini tubs?

Hotchkis does not address the steering geometry issues with a first gen subframe. You will still need to do something in this area to come close to the better aftermarket subframes. ATS spindles would be a good start. Tall balljoints would be another. You will also want an upgraded steering box.

Don

[XLexusTech]

X2 on the spindle question is it for the drop?

Their is a price diff 350 for the RT and 875 for the ATS MSRP.
But..tttt ATS also gets you to a better place brake wise (no need for brackets)

[jcal87]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcal87 View Post
How is the hotchkis tvs kit along with UCA's and LCA's does it even come close to an after market subframe? can it be used with mini tubs?


Hotchkis does not address the steering geometry issues with a first gen subframe. You will still need to do something in this area to come close to the better aftermarket subframes. ATS spindles would be a good start. Tall balljoints would be another. You will also want an upgraded steering box.

Don

but once the steering issues are resolved how are the hotchkis UCA's and LCA's along with the tvs kit would it compare

[o_andujar]

so earlier in the thread it was said that Hiedts is cheap and pretty much a knockoff...is this agreed upon? if so this SUCKS cause their prices are awesome and the subframe and especially the pro-G IRS look amazing, im actually saving up for the subframe rite now. is it worht the wait and my money?

[Blake Foster]

have a look at this combination.
http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=133/category_id=237/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd133.htm

then add this.
http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=215/category_id=271/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd215.htm

and if you want to go one step further and have C6 brakes there is this

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=187/category_id=237/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd187.htm

[214Chevy]

so earlier in the thread it was said that Hiedts is cheap and pretty much a knockoff...is this agreed upon? if so this SUCKS cause their prices are awesome and the subframe and especially the pro-G IRS look amazing, im actually saving up for the subframe rite now. is it worht the wait and my money?

I don't have a Camaro. But, if I did I wouldn't use Heidt's. Not in comparison to DSE and Speedtech. But, your point was the "prices are awesome." That may be better for you. Out of all the Camaros on here running aftermarket subframes, and trust and believe there are lots of them, why are probably 90% of them running DSE and/or Speedtech? Just my opinion and you asked.:_paranoid

[millertime179]

If you are looking for a setup that has proven itself on the track and dont want to break the bank i would use the stock sub and buy all the ridetech components. The ridetech 48 hour camaro drives very well and has all their suspension components with a stock subframe (no seam welding) and no subframe connectors. With their tru turn system you can run a 10" front wheel and with a little work and packaging you can get a little more under it if you want.
http://www.ridetech.com/store/1967-1969-chevy-camaro-coilover-system-level-2.html

kevin miller

[John510]

Buy a Speedtech! They are cheap. Only around 5K complete and are bad ass.

[Spiffav8]

Buy a Speedtech! They are cheap. Only around 5K complete and are bad ass.

Well...they don't cost as much as others. LoL

[Blake Foster]

Buy a Speedtech! They are cheap. Only around 5K complete and are bad ass.

lol let's not use the word CHEAP.

how about value added, or bang for the buck, or maybe even awesome deal.

OH and this month you will even get FREE AFX standard height spindles if you order the subframe kit.

[John510]

I meant cheap as in price not cheap as in quality. Sorry


I have one on Bloodline.

[Spiffav8]

I meant cheap as in price not cheap as in quality. Sorry


I have one on Bloodline.

I thought it was funny. :lol:

[Blake Foster]

I meant cheap as in price not cheap as in quality. Sorry


I have one on Bloodline.

i know you do John, and i too thought it was funny. just bustin ur balls

[justinyvehc]

So here is my question to throw into the mix. Slightly off the topic of pure performance but I think very important in whether or not to go aftermarket sub frame.

I have an LS1 and auto from a 2000 camaro with all standard front drive accessories that I am about to fit into a ’68 camaro. Will any of the after market sub frames allow me to use all the 4th gen camaro accessories and oil pan? If so this is a no brainer to go after market.

Correct me if im wrong on these costs, If I stick with the factory frame Im at least into it $2k for A arms coil overs plus whatever else to get it to perform close to an after market setup. Then looking at $1500-2k for engine accesory drive kit to clear stock sub frame plus $400 for oil pan. 11” wildwood setup approx $1000. I need to get a new steering box anyway so that’s another $400. So that’s around 6k.

Im pretty sure speedtech or DSE or heidts could fit me up with a fully loaded setup for $6k or less and have the advantages of modern geometry, wider front tire, rack front steering, more header clearance etc. etc. But……. will my stock 4 th gen camaro accessories and oil pan work with these setups.

Im looking to purchase this week so any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks, Justin

[Mkelcy]

So here is my question to throw into the mix. Slightly off the topic of pure performance but I think very important in whether or not to go aftermarket sub frame.

I have an LS1 and auto from a 2000 camaro with all standard front drive accessories that I am about to fit into a ’68 camaro. Will any of the after market sub frames allow me to use all the 4th gen camaro accessories and oil pan? If so this is a no brainer to go after market.

Correct me if im wrong on these costs, If I stick with the factory frame Im at least into it $2k for A arms coil overs plus whatever else to get it to perform close to an after market setup. Then looking at $1500-2k for engine accesory drive kit to clear stock sub frame plus $400 for oil pan. 11” wildwood setup approx $1000. I need to get a new steering box anyway so that’s another $400. So that’s around 6k.

Im pretty sure speedtech or DSE or heidts could fit me up with a fully loaded setup for $6k or less and have the advantages of modern geometry, wider front tire, rack front steering, more header clearance etc. etc. But……. will my stock 4 th gen camaro accessories and oil pan work with these setups.

Im looking to purchase this week so any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks, Justin

LOL, your "estimates" of the cost to upgrade the stock subframe are certainly one way to talk your self into an aftermarket unit. And if that's where you are, please ignore the rest of this post.

However, doing it not totally on the cheap, I come up with more like $3,000 - $3,500 for a really nice bolt-on build based on a stock subframe.

Suspension:$170 for a sway bar; $540 for SC&C UCA with tall ball joints; $550 for SC&C LCAs; $200 for AFCO spring adjusters and the springs in your choice of rate; $200 for front shocks: total $1660.

Accessory Drive: Reuse the F-body accessory drive you have and buy a KWIK mount for the AC Compressor: total - $200.

Oil Pan: I don't know if the stock LS1 oil pan will clear most after market subframes, so I'll give you the $400 for that.

Brakes: $115 for some Kore3 brake adapters and maybe $400 for a complete used LS1 Camaro or C5 front brake setup; Total - $515.

Steering: Rebuilt IROC box $200; Lee Engineering adapters & rag joint $100 - total $300.

So that’s around $3,075. You could reuse the stock UCA/LCA and pull $600 or more out of that number, or increase it with more expensive options. But a price of $6,000 to upgrade a stock subframe is pretty high.

[realcoray]

Correct me if im wrong on these costs, If I stick with the factory frame Im at least into it $2k for A arms coil overs plus whatever else to get it to perform close to an after market setup. Then looking at $1500-2k for engine accesory drive kit to clear stock sub frame plus $400 for oil pan. 11” wildwood setup approx $1000. I need to get a new steering box anyway so that’s another $400. So that’s around 6k.

Im pretty sure speedtech or DSE or heidts could fit me up with a fully loaded setup for $6k or less and have the advantages of modern geometry, wider front tire, rack front steering, more header clearance etc. etc. But……. will my stock 4 th gen camaro accessories and oil pan work with these setups.


You're numbers are wrong in a number of ways. You don't need an accessory drive kit, you can easily get away with options that would cost around 300$.

You don't get brakes with the aftermarket subs and brakes may be more expensive for them (non oem corvette brakes = $$$). Headers will be more expensive unless a header that fits a stock subframe ls1 swap fit. Don't assume that a stock oil pan would work, etc.

Comparing apples to oranges, purely for the subframe stock would be about 2/3rds of the cost (say 4k vs 6k~), that is for AFX spindles, arms, shocks, springs, steering, sway bar etc. I speak from the experience of buying all of this stuff.

Now, while I believe my subframe will perform more than good enough such that I would not be able to discern much difference performance wise when compared to the more expensive options, on future cars I will probably just order one. Why? Because I spent countless hours evaluating every single part, such that I'd buy the best parts that fit what I wanted to do. It's by far easier to just order it out of a catalog and everything will work together.

You still have the research about brakes and headers and what not, but hopefully the company would be able to offer you ideas.

[justinyvehc]

I guess I was a little put off on the accesory drive kit. Its too easy to look at the vendors goodies they have for ls1 swaps and assume its what you need. Ive spent most of the moring doing research and its the unfortunate fact that the more you read and see the more you want. I think maybe I am talking myself into an aftermarket setup but I do like the idea that your buying all the design work in a combined tested and proven packge.

I talked to a heidts rep and their proG IFS subframe complete incl. wilwood 11" rotors & dynalite calipers, single adjustable coilovers, trans mount SS brake line kit is around $4k. The stock camaro oil pan works but they are unsure on the AC compressor. Headers to suit are around $600

I actually sent my stock subframe off to be powder coated last week so options are still open to go this way. If one of the vendors can PM me a kit that would will save me a few $$ and still give decent handling i would definately consider. As far as what I want the car for, I autocross in my current car but Im more there for the fun than winning every race, I intend to do alot of street driving so still looking for decent ride without shaking all my fillings lose.

[fesler]

If you keep the stock sub frame just notch it and you can clear 9-inch wheels all day long we do it here with no issues just have to get the back space right. That will help you with the new wheel decisions

[John510]

I talked to a heidts rep and their proG IFS subframe complete incl. wilwood 11" rotors & dynalite calipers, single adjustable coilovers, trans mount SS brake line kit is around $4k. The stock camaro oil pan works but they are unsure on the AC compressor. Headers to suit are around $600




Save more of your money and get a higher quality frame.

[trademand]

I am looking for a supplyer ho makes A Arms ore Spindels that will let med mount C4 ore C5 brakes om my 66 Nova stock frame, Can anybody help me.

I have been looking at CPP front A amr conversion kit.