The REAL Thing or a CHEAP Knock-Off

[NRV2L8]

Howdie All,
Been cruisin several On-Line sites, gathering all intel I can and figured it was time to say, "Hello."
A little background history.
Got the 1st gen Bug back in High School. I compare it to Herpes. Once you have it, it never really goes away and there is no known cure. Had a 69 Rag Top, spent more time and money on it than I will ever admit to and like a Bone Head, I sold it. That was about 8 or 9 years ago and life came along to occupy my time and money else where.
Never loosing the desire to own another 69 Rag Top, I recently purchased one and so the Restoration process begins again.
Here's an interesting fact. The first 69 Rag Top, I purchased in 1992 for $1,700.00. A plain Jane, all matching 327, PG. Needing a complete resto and I do mean COMPLETE. Tail panel, Trunk pan, full floors, Dash panel, 2 full quarters, inner and outer rear wheel wells, it was a mess.
The one I just purchased in Dec. 08. Ran me $17,000.00. How's that for inflation.
This one is another Rag Top. MOSTLY done. Just Love those 69 Rag Tops. In need of paint and an interior. Dynacorn body, all new sheet metal present, primed for paint, complete but not original drive train. Set up as a 4sp car.
Considering todays cost, I felt that $17,000.00 was not a bad price. I didn't steal it but I did save quite a bit.

Here's a few questions for the group.
The seller, purchased a Donor car to help complete the Dynacorn shell. He removed the VIN and Cowl Tag from the donor car and has tranfered them along with the Title over to the Dynacorn shell.
My Wife and I have had several long debates on whether or not, this can be called a restored original. If I restore it, (build) it to match the Trim Tag, is it an original or a fake? At what point is a car no longer an original? That is to ask, "At what point, does a car loose the ability to be called an original restored car?"
My wife, is of the opinion that it will be a knock-off and in no way an original. I honestly don't know what to think.
My first 69 had just about the entire shell replaced The frame rails were the only portion salvaged. The Sub and drive train were also
I've posted this question on several other sites looking for feed-back.
Thanks Marc

[XcYZ]

There's a lot of debate about that, but for the most part, the people on this site aren't doing correct nut and bolt restorations - although a lot of our members have done them.

As long as you're intentions aren't to defaud someone, I don't see it as being that much different from a total restoration with every panel getting replaced.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Would it be a original car if you changed every panel on the original body one panel at a time until you had a complete body? Yes! So what is the difference buying it all pre welded in a shell or welding it together one piece at a time?

It's original in my book. We are doing 2 of them in our shop right now. If you need any help along the way let us know

[Vegas69]

I have to think a discriminating buyer looking for a numbers matching car will disagree. I would. You want to have some fun....go start this thread on Camaros.net.
I'd rather use a real body for a resto mod but don't think it's as big a deal in this world.

[chevyIIpost]

I am not a numders match/original guy at all. I have sinned heavely in this area seveal times by modifiying some "special cars". But if the factory stamped vin numbers, not cowl tags, that are located in seveal location are gone or never where there(ie Dynacorn) I would say it is not original.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I will be devils advocate for the bodies here and defend the use of them against popular opinion. But in the end I believe I have some pretty good arguements.

We changed at least 5 complete cowl / firewalls last year on original bodies, just finishing one now. And every stamped number in a Camaro is in the cowl or firewall. 9 out 10 cars through our shop get smooth firewall, and that eliminates 2 of the 3 stamped body numbers on every car.

If this makes a car NOT original, there are a awefull lot of NOT original cars out there.

Would it make it original if someone grafted in the stamped number from the original cowl into the new cowl?

[andrewmp6]

depends the person some love them the way they was built from the factory.Me i rather get a new shell and build it like that with no rust to fix.Rusted out cowls is a ford problem too.

[deuce_454]

i dont believe the cars soul and identity resides in the a pillars or original vin stampings.. if it was a camaro, built in detroit that at some point had the body shell replaced because of rust or damage.. is it still a camaro? YES... i mean its not like you bought a bunch of stuff in boxes and assembled it into a camaro copy and claimed it was an original...

a friend of mine has a mercedes 211 (the 500 e class) that had the bodyshell replaced because of an impact, insurance paid and everything... is it stil a mercedes.. hell yes..

so congratulations on your new camaro... post pics and show us your new baby

[tones2SS]

I am not a numders match/original guy at all. I have sinned heavely in this area seveal times by modifiying some "special cars". But if the factory stamped vin numbers, not cowl tags, that are located in seveal location are gone or never where there(ie Dynacorn) I would say it is not original.

I would have to agree.
I do like numbers matching cars, don't get me wrong. They are awesome cars of the past. But without the vin/cowl tags, it just doesn't seem right.
I wouldn't want a number matching car anyways. I would want MORE power, BETTER handling and MORE style.:thumbsup: :cheers:

[z066]

i have been round and round with this with corvettes, at the end of the day its not the numbers its the documentation,owner history that legitimizes these cars, it can be whatever you want it to be as long as you are not trying to sell that b.s. to someone else for profit,there are way more numbers matching 67 435 vettes out there today than were ever produced, thats why
there are so many guys that no longer care about numbers cars.just my 2 cents.

[67ragtp]

Frank,

The purists are turning in there graves, the number matchers believe only is a car original once. And thats the way it rolled off the line, down to the natural patena(what ever the hell that word means). Along with the original laquer paint. A cowl change or touch those rivits on a cowl tag sends them running in the other direction.

Im having Mike Riggs build me a 69 from nothing but an original a-piller/b-piller side frame and we will use the cowl tag and title from that car, but Im not sure if I could say its original. Personally, it dont matter to me, I say cut them all and add mini tubs to everything!

Rich

[svp]

We are building a '67 Mustang Convertible in the shop now and after it was blasted and we removed all the sheetmetal that needed to be replaced we had 2 shock towers attached to the front frame rails...A pillars with dash and a battery apron with the VIN stamped in it(which miraculously had no rust).....EVERYTHING else was replaced using donor parts from another car(rear convertible inner structure) and Dynacorn parts......so is it still an original car? It's no different that using the prewelded Dynacorn unibody...only they don't make a convertible so we had to make our own.

This is a touchy subject with many but in the end it is a restoration piece but different states have different laws regarding VIN's and their removal/replacement.

In the case of this Camaro where the VINs were removed...that is a touchy subject. I used to live in Maryland and know first hand that the law states you cannot attach a VIN to another car...however you are allowed to possess/collect them. In this case we have a Unibody that the VIN's have been removed so I am not sure how you would go about re-registering it in the state of MD short of going through the process such as a kit car would and have the State Police inspect it and assign a State of MD VIN plate. Obviously the original numbers are in use still so this presents a situation of sorts.

Back to Dynacorn....We have a '68 Mustang GT(Original Bullitt style car) that is going to be restored using a Dynacorn shell....the car is a basket case but we have the original Block, 4 speed, rear end and interior parts.....so is this still not a Mustang....the drivetrain is original...it's just the rusted out sheetmetal being replaced. No it's not an unrestored original but it is still a restored Mustang.

There are points to both arguements but in the end it boils down to whether someone is trying to defraud someone. It's very hard with the Dynacorn Mustangs because the Dynacorn body features convertible inner rockers and seat riser which are easy to identify.....I'm not sure if there is a similar identifying point to the Camaro bodies.

[murtah]

I have a dynacorn rag top as well. If I could have located a donor body I would have used it's documentation to "save" it as well. I prefer being able to run 1969 license plates and such. As I don't have any of that, I used the Dynacorn serial as a VIN and licensed it as a 1969 Camaro Convertible Replica.

Only by looking at the VIN/ Custom Cowl tag or the tail panel can you tell it is a dynacorn. The only foul would be if you tried to defraud a potential buyer into thinking it is someething it isn't. The purists are annoying but hell they really don't like PT cars anyway. Camaros.net members generally are pissed that it could lead to fake 1st Gens which would make their cars less rare, and or valuable. I think the sinking economy and the substantial resources required to build one will preclude this. Bottom line, enjoy it and tell people the truth, IF they ask you at a show or cruise.

An older gentleman with an "original" 69 coupe ( in ****ty shape) suggested that my car will have to be placed in a "kit Car" class if i take it to a cruise. He had little to say when I asked him to show me where I could order a "kit" 69 rag top. It isn't like factory five racing selLs them. No, you stilll have to buy and FIND alot of stuff even if you call year one and order their roller.

Check the passenger side of the wind shield frame especially if you hav a reproduction top frame. Nothing is right in that area. You will see when you start bolting up the surround trim and top locks.

Do you have the original front metal/ doors from the donor? Start with an original core support if possible. Goodmark/ Dynacorn...whatever, the molds are probably the same and it will require severe tweaking.

[cencal69]

I can sympathise with the herpes thing. But you learn to deal with it.

[Ummgawa]

Its an original Fake. Or a Fake Original.

[murtah]

I 'll hang out with the '32 roadster dudes then. Call it whatever you want just don't call it a damn kit car.