aftermarket EFI tuning

[camcojb]

Anyone else into aftermarket efi systems? I've tuned FAST, Accel Gen VII,and done some prom burning on a 93 Vette with a program from The Turbo Shop. I just bought a Big Stuff 3 system for my twin turbo, the newest system from John Meaney.

Anyone else enjoy playing with this stuff?

Jody

[907rs]

I'm still in the stone age Jody, but will have the Banks set-up and EFI on my car (if I can ever get it done! lol) and I'm dreading the day that I have to figure that stuff out.
There is only one shop in town that has a chassis dyno and does tuning, and I'm not even sure of thier background.So I've often weighed the option of loading the car on the trailer and hauling it to a reputable shop in the lower 48.
BUT, that point of the build is still some time away for me, we'll see!

[LIL QIK]

I'm still running my old 6.32 DFI..............I've tuned the motor naturally aspirated but am scared to try and tune the twin turbo........I can't really afford to build another motor........

So I'm actually considering moving on to something more friendly and simple.....I've heard the new 7.0 version is pretty simple and have also heard some good things about the FAST system. Haven't heard anything about the Big Stuff system thought..........

Which one would you say is the easiest to work with..........keeping in mind that my system is for all out driving and not just racing.

[camcojb]

The Gen VII is not the easiest to tune in my opinion; it's actually the toughest in my experience. Has a lot of control and is a nice unit, but I know several dealers who've dropped it because of the complexity. The FAST is pretty simple in my opinion, and I've heard the Holley 950 Commander is as well, although I have not tuned it. I just received my Big Stuff 3 and have had a chance to look through it. It looks awesome but can't give an opinion for a couple of months until I tune it on my car. It is designed by John Meaney, the same guy who developed the FAST system.

Jody

[Ummgawa]

Jody

I'm still waiting on my Big Stuff 3 from FORCE and am encouraged that you are using it also. I am running 58 lb injectors on a 383(I have as of yet to build) and you know the rest, twin turbos, AFR's, etc. Are you getting the unit with memory?
I will need some help with my unit once it is installed. Did you use a new harness for your project (Painless,etc?) or did you utilize the existing harness.

[camcojb]

Jody

I'm still waiting on my Big Stuff 3 from FORCE and am encouraged that you are using it also. I am running 58 lb injectors on a 383(I have as of yet to build) and you know the rest, twin turbos, AFR's, etc. Are you getting the unit with memory?
I will need some help with my unit once it is installed. Did you use a new harness for your project (Painless,etc?) or did you utilize the existing harness.


I'll be glad to help and hopefully I will have mine tuned by then. The unit comes with it's own standalone harness which you can integrate into whatever wiring harness is on the car.

Jody

[Ummgawa]

Jody

I am installing a new harness as I am incorporating Power windows, seats, A/C, fancy radio and a bunch of other stuff influenced by this web site. This one may suck the life out of me.

Of course I have a 55 chevy to build... :D

[camcojb]

Jody

I am installing a new harness as I am incorporating Power windows, seats, A/C, fancy radio and a bunch of other stuff influenced by this web site. This one may suck the life out of me.

Of course I have a 55 chevy to build... :D


Who's harness are you using? I have not made that decision yet and I also have A/C power windows, and a lot of electrical options.

[Ummgawa]

Jody

I guess ia m going with a painless harness. Here's what I can't figure out though, Painless has a COMPLETE kick butt harness for a 68 with all the plugs, clips, etc and I can get it cheap, but, Painless has a "HotRod" harness for 69-74 GM cars. 18- 22 fuses. Go Figure. No offense to you 68 Guys.

[Ummgawa]

Shame is that you have to use your old harness to get the plug ins for all of your stuff (unless of course you splice in harnesses for all of the components). There is a heck of a lot of sautering (SP?) unless you want to utilize a bunch of weather proof clamps.

[camcojb]

Thanks for the info. I'll keep looking around too and see if I come up with something better.

Jody

[Nutsy]

I was really impressed with the new FAST EFx system. I would be very interested to see how the BIG STUFF is to tune.

I am big into "auto learning" systems with Wideband O2s.

[parsonsj]

My LSx engine will be 950 driven. I'm using FAST's eDist to drive the coilpacks. I'm still getting the engine and car together so I can't claim to have "played" with it yet.

But I will.

jp

[Novacane]

Jody,

I started with the original CALMAP from the early 90's. Have also dabbled with the FAST.

I currently have the BIG STUFF 3 unit and harness for Chevy 2 project. I also agree that this unit is the latest and greatest from John Meaney. He really knows these things.

From playing around with the software on the laptop, I already like the menus and these ease of use! Time will tell!

[BigAl...]

guys I've also received my BS3 and I'm just waiting to install the engine to finish the efi installation. It seems like, if you've used FAST then there should be no problem using the BS3. Menus are very similar plus it has the learning option.

BigAl...

[69MyWay]

I selected the Edelbrock Pro-Flo for my big block EFI in my 69 Vette. I like the fact it is about as simple as it gets. Granted there are fine tuning items that are not available and a complete engine system change would require a new base cal chip to be burned. However, from there is it simple plug and play. I love the hand held tuner control box that makes real time instant changes and displays engine function with a green/amber/red indicator light to see rich/lean at a glance while cruising.

On my LSX project in the 69 Camaro I am really on the fence. I made some major mods to the car with SLP Stage III heads/cam/35# injectors/2,800 stall, etc. SLP uses Fastchip.com to program for $450 a pop. I think they lock the program once complete. They have a good reputation with SLP and seem to be confident of producing good results the first time. The other option is to go with hptuners.com or other type source to be able to log in and tune it myself. The problem here is they do not supply any baseline info or basic programs to get started. It is all learn as you go.

So, to answer you question: Yes, I do mess around with this stuff, and NO, I really don't like all the time and effort to compete the fine tuning details.

As far as chassis harnesses, I have done the Painless generic gm 18 circuit many times now. It is true you have to come up with your own ends from your stock harness for blinkers, tail lights, etc. However if you are running aftermarket gauges, a/c, and stereo, you will want to build your own ends there anyhow. It is very time consuming and requires thinking through the entire electrical system as you go always leaving room to grow as you think of additional things as you go. Tieing into a EFI system is a breeze as you usually are only integrating ignition, battery, grounds, and coil power.

[jlm44]

I too have played with the Accel DFI 7.0 and must say that they have the worst technical support group that I have ever come across. I wouldn't mind tuning with their software if it gave me a great end result but when their tech support cannot explain to me why I'm getting error messages from parameters I'm not even messing with I get annoyed.

[JimM]

Jody,

I did a Holley Commander system a few years ago. It was both easy and fun to tune. tx for the invite over here by the way, cool place!

[camcojb]

Thnaks for the info Jim. I have never tuned the Holley system, but have heard very good things about it.

Jody

[LIL QIK]

Jody........

How long do you think it'll be before you have the chance to try out the BS3. I think I'm about ready to upgrade..........But want to move on to the easiest and friendliest system out there. Looking at the software......would you say it's easier than the Fast.......Ya'll already tallked me out of the Accel 7.0 :_paranoid ..........and I've heard a lot of good things about the Fast.......but I figure since BS3 was created by the same person.......maybe he made it even easier.........

Any opinion?

[XcYZ]

My motor will also be my first stab at aftermarket EFI. I'm going with BS3 as well. I'm looking forward to learning to how to set it up and tune it, although I know there's going to be some headaches involved.

[camcojb]

Jody........

How long do you think it'll be before you have the chance to try out the BS3. I think I'm about ready to upgrade..........But want to move on to the easiest and friendliest system out there. Looking at the software......would you say it's easier than the Fast.......Ya'll already tallked me out of the Accel 7.0 :_paranoid ..........and I've heard a lot of good things about the Fast.......but I figure since BS3 was created by the same person.......maybe he made it even easier.........

Any opinion?

It's going to be 2-3 months I'd guess. I have spoken with a couple friends who've tuned it and said it's easy. I do know it has a much faster processor and better resolution than the FAST, which is a nice unit in itself.

Jody

[Blown353]

Jody, you can let me borrow your BS3, I'll install it and get it all figured out by the time you're ready for it.

The problem will be getting it back from me! :P

My FAST is working just dandy. I'll probably wait another generation before I consider upgrading. Right now I consider the newest units out there (BS3 and FAST EFX) to be "incremental upgrades"; i.e. small improvements here and there but no major compelling reason to yank mine out.

I will admit though the WB02 "self tuning" fuel maps offered by the new units will save a LOT of time tuning, especially for someone who hasn't done anything like that before. They won't save your motor if you command a 30% VE at 6700 rpm and 20 psi of boost, but it will sure make it nice and easy for the final tweaks.

It will definately take more time to tune a turbo motor since it can run in a LOT more areas of the map; i.e. low rpm with high boost, such as a heavy load in overdrive. Since boost will be relative to engine load you'll be tuning cells you wouldn't normally get to with any other engine, and my guess is you'll really have to pay attention to the high boost / low rpm areas (i.e. stabbing it in overdrive) and watch the timing to keep detonation away.

Nothing difficult/impossible, just more time consuming since turbos "open up" a lot of areas on the map that most other engine combos will never operate in.

[Y-TRY]

It looks like I'll be switching over to EFI sooner than later. Tuning the blow-thru/turbo set-up is even more difficult than I had thought, and I may have already burned a hole in one of my pistons for lack of even distribution.

What EFI intakes and throttle bodies are you guys using for turbo applications? I can't afford a Hogan's so I'm looking at something like the Accel Pro-Ram. Any suggestions here?

Also- When converting to C.O.P- how tough are the OEM packs? Will they be able to withstand the heat from the turbos? I mean, it gets REALLY hot in there.

[XcYZ]

Have you thought about having your intake converted and running a 4150 4 barrel style throttle body? That's the direction I'm going. Jim Hall (Ummgawa) had his done at Force-EFI, and that's who's doing my conversion as well.

Just a thought, not sure if you're dead-set on a TPI type intake.

http://www.lateral-g.net/hall/Picture_0179.jpg

[Blown353]

A single plane with a throttle body would work just fine for a turbo app, as would the holley stealth ram if you want a different look.

The Accel Pro-Ram is a nice manifold; for a while Don had it on his Procharged Camaro and it was a really nice looking and well thought out piece. All the hard stuff you normally have to weld on with a carb'd intake are already on there-- fuel rail hold down provisions cast into the manifold, tapped ports in the back of the plenum pad for sensors, injector bungs, etc.

The single plane/throttle body combo is more forgiving for plumbing as you can put a hat on it and point it whatever direction is easiest for your turbo plumbing, whereas if you go with the stealthram you're stuck with a throttle body up front.

While not turbocharged, I'm still boosted, and I'm using a hybrid manifold; the lower is a holley stealth ram, and the upper is sheetmetal with extended runners which helps built a LOT more torque. The guy who did my manfold did some dyno testing and found that my style of intake (he builds slight variants based on the application) on a naturally aspirated motor is worth 70 ft/lbs more torque in the middle compared to a Victor Junior; now, consider that gain in torque and apply boost and you get a proportional gain. You could duplicate it or build something similar for about half the price of a Hogan's, but it's still not inexpensive.

I'd suggest something with longer runners to build lots of torque; since your turbos will be shoving air through the sucker the long runners won't become a top-end killer (a-la the GM TPI) at higher RPM. As far as readily available off the shelf intakes, I really like the Stealth Ram.

Speaking of burning a piston from mixture distribution, I think you'll find your carb bonnet is to blame. Most bonnets out there have HORRIBLE air distribution characteristics; I've heard of as much as staggering jets 10 sizes side to side to make up for the poor airflow characteristics of a given hat. There are only a couple good hats out there, and a LOT of bad ones.

Keep in mind if you run EFI with a single plane / throttle body and use a crappy hat, you may also have mixture problems cylinder to cylinder. Granted they'll all be fed the same amount of fuel at the port by the injector, but the amount of air each cylinder sees may be quite different! A good hat matters with EFI, too.

[Y-TRY]

Thanks for the replies. I also like the Pro-Ram for a single-plane type of intake. It's pretty much identical to my Bowtie intake, but with the EFI provisions already built-in. I could buy the Pro-Ram new for $375+/- or use my Bowtie and have Force-EFI convert it for $425+/-. Seems like a no-brainer.

Since you say the TPI style works good, I'll also look into something like that. Isn't the StealthRam similar to the TPIS MiniRam?

I do have a question, though: If I run the Pro-Ram, or similar, will there still be distribution issues if coupled to a TPI type of throttle body via an elbow? In the Pro-Ram scenario I was planning a 90-degree elbow and big TPI style TB. Will this help the distribution problem found with a hat?

I'll keep ya'll abreast of what happens with the engine. I left the car at my other house in Austin and will be back down there this weekend with tools. Cross your fingers for me!

[camcojb]

Thanks for the replies. I also like the Pro-Ram for a single-plane type of intake. It's pretty much identical to my Bowtie intake, but with the EFI provisions already built-in. I could buy the Pro-Ram new for $375+/- or use my Bowtie and have Force-EFI convert it for $425+/-. Seems like a no-brainer.

Since you say the TPI style works good, I'll also look into something like that. Isn't the StealthRam similar to the TPIS MiniRam?

I do have a question, though: If I run the Pro-Ram, or similar, will there still be distribution issues if coupled to a TPI type of throttle body via an elbow? In the Pro-Ram scenario I was planning a 90-degree elbow and big TPI style TB. Will this help the distribution problem found with a hat?

I'll keep ya'll abreast of what happens with the engine. I left the car at my other house in Austin and will be back down there this weekend with tools. Cross your fingers for me!

For $375. I do not believe you get the fuel rails, which are included with the Force conversion. They get $150+ for those I believe.

I like the 90 degree elbow and monoblade throttle body; works great, looks unique, and eliminates the hat altogether.

Jody

[XcYZ]

I stumbled across this, it reminded me of the mono-blade with the 90* elbow you had on the Yellow car, Jody. I don't think I've ever seen this setup before...

http://www.arizonatpi.com/products/1000MP1.jpg

[Y-TRY]

That's the type of intake/ TB / elbow set-up I'm thinking about. Since the Force-EFI conversion includes rails, I may go that route. Thanks for the info, Jody.

Do you think Mr. Meaney would be willing to set-up a base tune on the BS3 for us like-minded turbo people? I emailed a question to BS3 and he personally responded. I was quite impressed. He referred my question to Rad Rides. It's kinda intimidating talking to such legends. :hail:

[Blown353]

I'm with Jody here; if you run single-plane, go with an elbow and a monoblade to get the hat out of the picture. You can run whatever monoblade TB you want, and I believe Wilson makes the 90 degree elbows. A 75mm monoblade would be more than enough. If you go too big on a monoblade, off-idle throttle response becomes quite touchy as just a small move on that big butterfly results in a HUGE amount of additional airflow. It can also make tuning the enrichment parameters tricky as you can cause massive and rapid vacuum swings with just a tiny bit of movement; it will take some tweaking of the AE vs. MAP rate and AE vs. TPS rate to make things work smoothly, while a 4 hole TB will be more forgiving as it takes a greater throttle input to cause a vacuum change on the same magnitude.

The monoblade throttle bodies are also cheaper and simpler than the 4-hole holley-style throttle bodies; less shaft seals to leak, no progressive linkage and the associated wear points, etc. You'll be a bit more restricted on plumbing since the TB will point straight forward, but you should be able to work around that.

Another recommendation for Rob @ Force EFI here. I bought all my FAST stuff through him and he custom did a wiring harness for me; nice guy, fair prices, and nice work.

Troy

[binkt]

Thnaks for the info Jim. I have never tuned the Holley system, but have heard very good things about it.

Jody
I am using the Holly StealthRam TPI and commander 950 pro and have found it to get more out of my sbc than any previous combination of carburetor I used. It takes some basic computer savvy and practice to tune. Holly phone Tech Support is superb. I recommend the wide band oxygen sensor option for ease of use and better control. My rear wheel horsepower increased by 75 HP with the optimum tuning afforded by the system.

[slow4dr]

AEM will have a flying lead harness for custom adaptation available very soon for their EMS. The AEM EMS is just as capable as the high priced Motec systems with pricing equal to or less than FAST or BS3. The programming is very advanced and not for the computer challenged but is well worth the outcome once properly tuned. They also have a VERY active user forum for tech support.

www.AEMPOWER.com

[GregWeld]

I've been "playing" with the Accel Gen VII on my 427 small block chevy for most of 2 years now. I had the earlier version on a 502 in my 67 Vette and was VERY unhappy with it - but the Gen VII is actually very tunable and I think "easier" than "we" make it out to be. Really -- this is little different than tuning a carb and curving a distributor. The motor parameters are put in - knowing your cam and head facts are critical here... and the Gen VII will build a VE table for you... which you can then fine tune. I frankly had the most trouble building a proper A:F table! You talk to one guy and he tells you idle should be around 14.7:1 -- so you try to tune this ala a "new" car (which run these very lean AF's) and find the thing just won't run ----- so like most tuning --- you resort to what the motor wants. My 427 - Canfield headed - Comp Cams 288 wants a really FAT idle AF... and then I adjust the VE to read (taking the O2 sensor off line) the programed AF... The Accel Gen VII with a wide band O2 sensor also has an "auto calc" button.... so I have a buddy drive -- and I tune various areas using the auto calc and then smooth the areas around these cells. When I see very little O2 "input" - i.e., when the O2 is adding or subtracting less than about 2 or 3% then this is "good"....

Tuning the "curve" is also pretty straight forward -- starting at 18 degrees intial -- you can then add timing up to your total timing baselines... My car runs best at idle with 20 degrees (900 RPM - low vacuum signal) - rising very quickly to total 36.... during the drive and tune session -- I work on the high vacuum light throttle cells -- going lean as much as 15:1 and 45 degrees timing... not much different than a distributor with vacuum advance....

Trust me -- I've tried real hard to make tuning this thing hard -- and finally after all this time -- have realized I made it overly complicated -- and changed too many parameters too soon.... when it really comes down to AF (jetting) and timing (curving the distributor) - the rest of the stuff is selectable for fans - AC - idle air control (I plug the air port on the TB and set the idle so that the IAC motor is doing basically nothing at idle).... and then you just have to remember that for every "CHANGE" you have to reset the TPS (throttle position sensor) as this piece works on voltage readings for a linear throttle response. When you raise or lower the set screws on the linkage - you've changed the voltage reading at the TPS... and the computer has to be told to reset... THOSE are the learning curve issues that take time to get --- and ALSO remembering to SAVE the program to a file! Keeping your "old" one so if you mess it up - you just reload and start over....

I AGREE WITH ACCEL TECH SUPPORT --- SAYING THEY SUCK IS A MAJOR UNDERSTATEMENT... they're non-existant. You buy ACCEL -- you're on your own! But there's plenty of people out there that can help. All in all -- it's fun tuning this way.