Allum Radiator choices

[67ragtp]

Is there a good quality alternative to running a Ron Davis radiator? What is the next best choice, with intergrated fans?
I have one on my 67, the quality is awesome, the cost is huge, probably the highest in the industry. Building my new 69 in tough economic times, I find myself now trying to save a bit on the real high cost items but don't want to sacrifice quality. Im sure there are plenty of nice rides/builds out there running a different brand. Like to hear some recommendations- Thanks Rich

[dhutton]

I bought one on ebay from a seller called Entropy. I had it made dual pass with a trans cooler, LSx steam vent and it included the fans. Nice radiator for the money.

There is a thread over on pro-touring.com about these radiators:

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32288

Don

[BBC69Camaro]

You might try Alumitech Radiators
http://www.chevellecooling.com/

For the record I have a Ron Davis they are well worth the price. I know Frank at Prodigy can get a pretty good price on them. I think he even has a cheaper alternative as well.

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44391&highlight=Radiator

[chicane]

C&R is another excellent choice. Good enough for the top NASCAR, CORE, SNORE, SCCA teams to use...

I steered CarlC toward an integral heat exchanger radiator for his '68 and its install is shown on his web-page: CarlC's webpage (http://www.geocities.com/casanoc/)

I believe he paid around $650 for this component... and even with the pounding he can dish out at "Streets of Willow" on a 112+* day... the engine temp never went over 195* cooling both the engine coolant and engine oil at the same time. Dollar for dollar... that is the best money spent for a cooling system and tops the function over form category.

The Ron Davis equivalent to this in capacity and performance would be $1200.00 plus...

[BBC69Camaro]

Hey Chicane -

I was looking at CarlC's pictures of his radiator. I'm sure his setup works wonders. But I don't see a shroud over the radiator. Wouldn't you want a shroud to make sure the air is pulled through more of the radiator instead of just what the fan covers?

CarlC's -
http://www.geocities.com/casanoc/Radrhrear.jpg

Ron Davis -
http://www.rondavisradiators.com/LS1-CAMARO-RADIATOR.jpg

I'm certainly no expert but my understanding is the more area you can pull air through the greater the cooling.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Here ya go. $300 cheaper then a Ron Davis. We have Ron Davis also. These are $900 and include dual 13" fans, 3490 CFM, Cross flow design, Steamline, LSX ready. I have them on the shelf, many here are running them.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/67-69CamaroLS1-radiator.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/67-69camaroLS1FS.jpg

[WSSix]

Hey Chicane -

I was looking at CarlC's pictures of his radiator. I'm sure his setup works wonders. But I don't see a shroud over the radiator. Wouldn't you want a shroud to make sure the air is pulled through more of the radiator instead of just what the fan covers?


I'm certainly no expert but my understanding is the more area you can pull air through the greater the cooling.

You're correct to a point. When the car is moving at anything over about 35 mph, you don't need the fan(s). This is why a GM ECM for instance includes a MPH shut off as well as a temp shut off. When air is being forced through the radiator with just the movement of the car, a shroud covering the whole radiator can block the air by forcing it through the shroud opening only. Factory fan shrouds do not cover a radiator completely either. I'm sure full race cars may be different but for a street car, a full shroud is not necessary usually.

[Vegas69]

That's ok in a factory situation where big horsepower is usually not under the hood. Let's face it....horsepower is heat. Who had ever had trouble cooling an engine driving down the road? It's all about city driving at low speed. That's when you need that full shroud and dual spals kicking aise non stop. Especially when it's 100 degrees 5 months a year.:D

[chicane]

Hey Chicane -

I was looking at CarlC's pictures of his radiator. I'm sure his setup works wonders. But I don't see a shroud over the radiator. Wouldn't you want a shroud to make sure the air is pulled through more of the radiator instead of just what the fan covers?

Well... no... not necessarily. The fact of the matter is, that you dont need or want a shroud unless the vehicle is standing still.

In fact... covering the radiator with a perpendicular panel, like that shown in the Ron Davis and Prodigy picture's, actually adds restriction to gross flow and may only help you when the vehicle is at a low speed, or stopped. In reality, that specific design really only works when the fan is operating (and only up to a certain speed)... other than that... it only provides a restriction to any naturally occuring flow through air. You also loose a fair amount of surface area with the fan overlapping the tanks as well. And, I bet if you did the math... that the single fan that Carl is running has more active surface area than that of the two fan set ups shown in the Davis and Prodigy pictures.

(4 pi r^2)

Also... not to forget to mention... that the fan that Carl is running... pulls way more air than that of the two Spal fans that the Davis... or... Prodigy set up uses.

Now... if you do a lot of parking lot cruising, car shows and sitting in bumper to bumper traffic... then it may work, albiet probably not all that much better.

C&R cross flow radiator with a 13 plate heat exchanger = $650
18.5" Ford/Lincoln Mark VIII fan = $150 - $200

$850 for a radiator with superior cooling capacity, a built in heat exchanger for *proper* oil cooling and a fan that pulls over 5000 cfm = no brainer.

[Vegas69]

In a racing situation I absolutely agree.....5000 cfm out of one fan?

[WSSix]

That's ok in a factory situation where big horsepower is usually not under the hood. Let's face it....horsepower is heat. Who had ever had trouble cooling an engine driving down the road? It's all about city driving at low speed. That's when you need that full shroud and dual spals kicking aise non stop. Especially when it's 100 degrees 5 months a year.:D

Very true but the C6 Z06 and I'm betting ZR1 don't have a full shroud. No C5 or normal C6 does. You're also not producing huge horsepower sitting still or idling in traffic so you're not producing any more heat. Of course you have to know the capacity of both the fan and radiator before you can say if a partially cover radiator/ fan combination will work.

[Vegas69]

True but my c5 fan turned on at 232 degrees. Don't need much snort on your fan to maintain that temp. Carbs hate heat and it's not that optimal. 600 hp car still makes more heat at idle than 350. It's all relative. I have a dual fan with full shroud and I can't get any heat in mine when it's 70 crusing. 180 stat and it runs 150-165 on the highway. Summer it runs 180-190 with full shroud at speed. Keep in mind the factory is going to use what it can get by with. For us hot rod builders we want our temps in a specific range and it's usually around town idling that causes issues. On the track then no shroud is probably ok.

[chicane]

In a racing situation I absolutely agree.....5000 cfm out of one fan?

Yup... although, I have heard a number of quotes between 4800 to 5500 cfm... so I just call it 5k to err with some safety factor.



Here (http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16925) is a discussion on this very subject from a couple of years ago, RE: Bad Penny 1.0.

Mind you that the number that Carl quoted for operation temperature and its max value... was when he was killing it on the track. The actual street temperatures... were even better. In fact... the specific system is so efficient... that it requires an oil thermostat to keep the temperature in it. And thus... without a shroud.

At higher operating speeds... the shroud will only hurt. But that would be braking the law.

[WSSix]

True but my c5 fan turned on at 232 degrees. Don't need much snort on your fan to maintain that temp. Carbs hate heat and it's not that optimal. 600 hp car still makes more heat at idle than 350. It's all relative. I have a dual fan with full shroud and I can't get any heat in mine when it's 70 crusing. 180 stat and it runs 150-165 on the highway. Summer it runs 180-190 with full shroud at speed. Keep in mind the factory is going to use what it can get by with. For us hot rod builders we want our temps in a specific range and it's usually around town idling that causes issues. On the track then no shroud is probably ok.

The reason the temp gets so high in your C5 is tuning for emission reasons, nothing more. The factory fans are very strong. After tuning and a 160* stat most C5s run 190-205 all the time. C6s use a single fan with a delta controller to maintain a certain temp with every varying fan speeds which is better for the engine versus cyclic heating up and cooling down that an on/off fan setup causes.

You're right it is relative and the whole picture must be looked at. You can have different block designs and cylinder wall thickness greatly affecting coolant temps. Horsepower alone is not the only variable. For instance, in a few weeks I'll have completed a 600+ hp C5. It will not run any hotter than stock at any time other than when I put it under boost. It'll have factory everything cooling wise because it's a street car. Our last blown C5 made 550hp and had no issues cooling.

Also, if you're coolant temps really are that low, are you sure your oil temps are adequately high enough? There is such a thing as too cold for the engine.

[Vegas69]

I have been a little concerned about that actually. I should take a oil pan reading next time out. What is minimum oil temp reccomended? At 150-165 cooland I am assuming oil temp of 175-190. Engine takes forever to get temp in it initially as well.

[WSSix]

If you have those oil temps, you're fine. I believe 180* is the "magic number" for oil temps. I'd personally find a way to add an oil temp gauge. Do you have a volt gauge? I'd get rid of that for an oil temp gauge in a heart beat if you can.

[chicane]

Engine oil temperature (operational values) are considered best when the engine oil temperature is maintained at 20 to 30*F above that of the water temperature. See the link to a discussion below.

Not to mention that you best volumetric efficiency is going to be between 195-215*F. Keeping the oil at 215* or better will allow the additives in the base oil product to do their intended job.

Here (http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8482&highlight=engine+oil+temperature) and here (http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31437&highlight=engine+oil+temperature) are two discussions of engine oil temperature from a few years ago.

[Vegas69]

From my brief look online 180 looks dead on. I can install one on my oil filter remote mount. Sounds like a good idea. I think I'll pull the dipstick next time and take a quick reading with my infared gun. I bet it's real close. 25-30 degrees above coolant temp seems pretty average.

[chicane]

180* for engine coolant (and automatic transmissions) and 215* for engine oil is considered to be near perfect.

IR isnt going to tell you the temperature... just the surface temperature of the medium that you are looking at (not saturation temperation). You need an immertion probe type transducer to give you an accurate reading.

[Vegas69]

Dipstick is submerged in the crancase...just want a vague reading to start with. Maybe a good idea to go to a 195 t stat in the winter here. I added water wetter and more water since summer and it's really made it tough to put heat in the motor. Around town it will run 180 but on the road 150-165 in norm. Remote oil filter is probably not ideal for a temp gauge either.

[chicane]

Something sounds amiss... you are running a 180* thermostat but your engine runs below the thermostat temperature.

The t-stat should keep the coolant flow restricted to build heat into the fluid medium... and maintain the 'set' tempersature. So for your engine to run below the 'set' temperature... there has to be something that is allowing the coolant to continue to flow even under the 'set' temperature. I'm guessing that your bypass in the manifold/pump is being used... but I would'nt expect it to flow so much that it would drop more than about 10*F maximum.

150-160*F (20-30*F) is a big drop for for a closed system running a thermostat. I wonder what it would do with a 195* in it ??

[Vegas69]

I agree man...I swapped out the thermostat thinking the same thing. Does exactly the same thing. I have checked the T-Stat with my gun and it opens right at 180. I have also checked the temp sensor and it's dead on. I have noticed that the t stat can be open with coolant temp at 180 at the t stat housing and the coolant is still only 165 in the back of the intake. That is in the garage after warm up and the intial opening of the stat. I let it warm up for 5-10 minutes this morning and drove down to cars and coffee and it still hadn't fully warmed up. that 15w40 rotella must be some good chit. :unibrow: I am going to verify my oil temp is above 180. If it's not I'll change over to a 195 stat for winter to bump up the oil temp.

[Vegas69]

I guess it's time to do a little more investigation to see if the t stat is open at 150 operating temp.

[chicane]

You using a "Robertshaw"... or an OE style t-stat ??

[Vegas69]

I assume you mean high flow....I had a milodon 180 and now a Mr. Gasket 180. I'm not running the water pump bypass hose. Wonder if that could be a contributing factor.

[Steve1968LS2]

Happy with my AFCO.. it only has one fan and I had zero heat issues at the Optima challenge.

Two fans are a great idea though, especially if you have air conditioning.

[deuce_454]

i have a be-cool in my impala, a howe in the malibu and a ron davis in both my 65 mustang and my 32 roadster (the 454 deuce :-)) and for quality and wow factor id say ron davis.. but both the howe and be-cool function flawlessly, so from a cooling standpoint i dont have any donts... but i sure like the ron davis units, especially the integral fan option... automotive porn!

[G-Body]

GRIFFIN - complete rad built n house and amazing quality!

[WSSix]

for any of you guys that may have classic vettes or are looking to build one, DeWitts makes the best ones out there. I've never had an issue with his setups and I've used them on C2-C4 cars. They cool very well on the C2 and C3s which actually have cooling issues.