Duramax???

[Camaromax]

First of all hello. I am a newbie on here but not a newbie to the car hobby. I have been visiting this forum as well as pro-touring.com for several years trying to decide what to do for my project. I am still probably a couple of years away from getting to actually do much with it unless I run into a bunch of money or something, but I would like to bounce a few ideas around off you guys and see what your opinions are.

A little background on me. My experience is mostly with gasoline powered cars. i previously worked at an automotive machine shop where we did a lot of dirt circle track and scca type engines. I have also helped build and maintain some dirt oval cars.

My question is has anybody here ever done or thought about doing a duramax swap into their project? I have seen this done a couple of times in magazines but can not seem to find very much information on the subject online. Does anybody have any information on doing this swap? The car I am considering is my 1980 camaro. I know it will take up a lot of room but I saw one in a Regal and I know I have a lot more room under the hood of my Camaro. So right now im just looking for information and bouncing around the pros and cons.

Sorry for writing so much.
Thanks for any info or input.

[XcYZ]

Welcome to the site.

You seriously want to put a Duramax in a Camaro? I've seen it done in a Chevelle, didn't really see the point other than the wow factor.

[Ketzer]

Its not as big as a big block, but is just as heavy. If you are staying stock, its not a big deal but if you plan to hotrod your Dmax, start looking at the cost of some of the parts. Building a high end Dmax is expensive. The only company I've found so far that makes a stand alone engine harness is PPE, the guys that did the Dmax Chevelle.
I think its a cool idea, I hope to follow your project if you go at it. Just don't expect to be very popular, I've built against the norm and caught lots of flak. Thats how I came up with my screen name :D .

Jeff-

[CraigMorrison]

Off the top of my head, there are at least three customers who are doing Duramax projects.....
1) Chevelle - Has been at SEMA the last couple years
2) Buick GN - Pro Street car that makes 1800ft-lbs torque
3) 57 Caddy- TT engine that should be over 2000 ft-lbs.

If you are looking to do a cool PT diesel look to the european engines. Peugeot and Audi are leaders in high RPM direct injection race engines as seen in their LeMans race cars.

[rsk68]

are you the Kid I met at the Plesanton show a few weeks ago?

[Camaromax]

First off thanks for the input.

XcYZ - Yes I seriously want to put a Duramax in a Camaro and not just for the wow factor. The Duramax will put down loads of torque and I believe that I have seen a few in the diesel truck forums getting right near 600hp with no work on the internals of the engine. Now while that is not a huge amount of horsepower it would be a really dependable powerplant that also gets great mileage vs gas engines with similar power.

Ketzer - Thanks for info. Yeah I don't like doing much by the book either and most the car guys I hang around with here all think I am crazy also. I am planning on keeping things fairly simple as far as the engine goes. My main concern is dependability and driveability as I do plan on driving this car quite a bit once it is done. I am thinking about just getting a low mileage engine and trying to use the factory wiring and computer. Then just doing some of the upgrades to it that are available to the truck guys. I still need to do some research on the truck boards and see what product will be the best way to reach my goal. I am planning on aiming somewhere between 500 and 600 horsepower but if I get a little more I won't be upset. :lol: But hopefully that will keep engine cost to a minimum.

CraigMorrison - is there anywhere I can find some info on the 57 Caddy that was mentioned? I have not seen that one yet.

Thanks Again Everyone:thumbsup:

[Camaromax]

Oops I forgot one

rsk68 - No I am afraid I am not that Kid. I live in Illinois and have never made it out to California yet. But maybe someday.

[deuce_454]

id strongly suggest looking into european Diesels..... i can think of a couple off hand

merdedes 400CDI, which makes 350 Hp with no other mods than a ecu flash
th VW Thuraeg 5L V10 diesel will do 500+ Hp with upgraded turbos and a tune.
if you ar emade of money.. banks is offering a duramax crate engine thate 750+ Hp... but i think it is so expensive that you need to be an ex enron CEO to buy it...

[fesler]

You can do this, you will have to run a large cowl hood to get the engine up a little. The oil pan is going to be your problem as they hang down on the engine, you may have to rebuild it to fit. Not a big deal but a small problem.

The engine and tranny with exhaust, intake and some PPE programming will get you about 600HP and 800-900FT so this thing will fly. HP is cool but you feel TQ and that is what will make the car fast.

I have a few of these engines in trucks that are beefed up and my 10-inch 2008 lifted Chevy on 38s will hang with vettes all day. It is super fast and will weight alot more than a Camaro so you are going to fly. I have a ton of info I can get you for the performance side so you can get it right the first time.

look up PPE and use them for the computer and all programming, they do these engines in boats and sand vehicles and they work hand in hand with GM so they have the best programming and eq you can get. They also build the tranny to handle the weight but you wont need that. We do it in the trucks because of how heavy they are.

Start a post on this when you start it because this is going to be very cool. there will be a lot of guys who hate it but who cares be different. Good luck

[Vegas69]

Not digging the whole duramax engine in a Camaro idea. I did see the Chevelle at Sema. Talk about 10 lbs of **** in a 5 lb box. Different but not appealing to me whatsoever.

[camcojb]

The Duramax will put down loads of torque and I believe that I have seen a few in the diesel truck forums getting right near 600hp with no work on the internals of the engine. Now while that is not a huge amount of horsepower it would be a really dependable powerplant that also gets great mileage vs gas engines with similar power.



and at 550-575 rwhp it'll be making about 1100 rwtq. :unibrow: I do my own tuning with Efi Live and my 7000 lb truck went 12.75 at 108.5 mph full weight and no track mods at all; stock engine/turbo, just tuning, exhaust, and water injection. It should go mid to low 12's with the t-bars and tire pressure lowered so it doesn't wheel hop. Oh, and it gets 22-23 mpg on the freeway, and no worse than 16 or so around town. Imagine what it would do in something lighter than 7000 lbs???!! :thumbsup:

Although it would be a blast to drive, just realize you'll also receive a fair amount of smack for this swap. If you can live with that, then do it.

Jody

[slownova]

id wait and see what GM was going to do with the 4.5 duramax, before i tried to stuff a 6.6 in a car. the 4.5 is going to be a wicked little motor with a huge aftermarket, and it looks to be the size of a sbc?

[Camaromax]

Thanks fesler and camcojb for the input and advice

yeah I realize there are going to be a lot of people who do not like it but they do not realize it does not take rpm to make huge power. The only difference between this and a gas engine of the same power is that the power band of the diesel is right off idle and the gas engines have to wait till about 3000 rpm till they start making power. Also like camcojb said he gets 23 mpg in a 7000lb truck and he also runs in the 12s so even with those very easily done modifications to the engine looks like a Camaro, that should weigh in at I am hoping around 4000 lbs if that, should do better on fuel and be quicker in the quarter while still maintaining that reliability of the Duramax.

Also thanks to all who have suggested European diesels but I think those might be a little to exotic for what I am trying to do. I am also thinking about sticking with a GM theme.

The car will probably mostly be to be a driver and also for those occasional times I might go to the track.

fesler- any info on the performance end is much appreciated as I have not compiled much information on that yet. Like I said I am wanting mostly reliability and driveability. I would also like to stick with using a Duramax with mostly stock internals. I wouldn't mind taking the heads off and working on them and maybe adding thicker head gaskets to lower the compression so I can run more boost but I really do not want to get into the bottom end of this engine.

So what power level do you think would be reliable on a Stock Bottom End???

Thanks Again

[camcojb]

fesler- any info on the performance end is much appreciated as I have not compiled much information on that yet. Like I said I am wanting mostly reliability and driveability. I would also like to stick with using a Duramax with mostly stock internals. I wouldn't mind taking the heads off and working on them and maybe adding thicker head gaskets to lower the compression so I can run more boost but I really do not want to get into the bottom end of this engine.

So what power level do you think would be reliable on a Stock Bottom End???

Thanks Again

no reason to drop the compression (think it's at 17:1 or thereabouts on the new LMM's). Guys are running 40-45 psi without issue with aftermarket turbos or twins on the stock engines. Above that head studs are recommended, and the stock lower end still is fine. The stock turbo is claimed to be done by 32 psi, but on my truck 36-38 psi is faster than 32 psi even with the stock turbo.

Where the bottom end (rods usually) starts having problems is when you start running big pulse widths, lots of fuel. Twin CP3 fuel pumps and a big amount of fuel will bend the stock rods. Thing is you can run 3300-3400 pulse with stock pump, an add-on lift pump, and make enough power to put the trucks in the 11's with more air (bigger turbo or twins). Where would that put a car that's 3000 pounds lighter?????????? :bow:

[Camaromax]

thanks for the input again

camcojb - sounds like your the guy to be talking to on here about these diesels. So if you were to build an engine for this car with a target of around 600hp how would you go about it? Would you just add head studs, Do the above fuel mods you mentioned, and some programming?

I was looking at PPE's site and they show programers adding 425hp has anyone tested these? If so what were the result and what other mods were done with the programming?

Also camcojb they say that every 10lbs is 1hp so in a car weighing 300lbs less than a truck that 3000 lbs would be like adding 300hp. I am sure that is just an estimate but I would think that 3000lb difference would at least put the car in low 11s if the truck is in the 11s at all, possible high 10s. All while getting 23+++ mpg.

[camcojb]

thanks for the input again

camcojb - sounds like your the guy to be talking to on here about these diesels. So if you were to build an engine for this car with a target of around 600hp how would you go about it? Would you just add head studs, Do the above fuel mods you mentioned, and some programming?

I was looking at PPE's site and they show programers adding 425hp has anyone tested these? If so what were the result and what other mods were done with the programming?

Also camcojb they say that every 10lbs is 1hp so in a car weighing 300lbs less than a truck that 3000 lbs would be like adding 300hp. I am sure that is just an estimate but I would think that 3000lb difference would at least put the car in low 11s if the truck is in the 11s at all, possible high 10s. All while getting 23+++ mpg.


I would do the head studs since it's so easy with the engine out. I also would go with EFI Live instead of a PPE tune. Nothing against Dan at PPE, great guy and very good tuner. But his performance tunes are as much or more than EFI Live, and with his you can't do the tuning changes. With EFI Live you can change anything in the tune so if you want to try more boost, change the fuel, timing, etc. you have immediate access.

The biggest problem you'll have is traction. The street trucks that are the quickest are almost always 4wd, and there's a good reason for that. Even though the 4X weighs more and has more power loss down the track due to two diffs instead of one, they launch much harder and traction is way better. The 2wd trucks are rarely as quick as the 4X's, unless it's a drag specific truck, because they cannot hook 1100+ rwtq. You're gonna need slicks for sure for any track duty, and it'll still be a learning curve to get the car to leave decently. If you get it to hook well, you'll easily run 10's I would think, but not sure how easy that will be to do. Mileage, can't see any way you can't get well into the 20's on the freeway.

Jody

[deuce_454]

ok, this thread just caught my intererest beyond making suggestions.... mabe my euro-diesel suggestion was from only having ridden in a tuned Mercedes 400 CDI, vs a mild tune 24Vcummins, and the merc was infinitely faster and smoother...

but how much is a Duramax take-out engine... what manifolds do people run with twins.. fabricated logs?? what else, appart from the engine and a feed pump is required to make it run in a swap... how much does it weigh???

[Camaromax]

So some of my concerns now are:

1. Fitting in the engine bay due to height?

I am thinking possible dry sump to allow me to lower the engine down as far as I can so I can run a small cowl hood. If Chevy can run a dry sump on a production Corvette why shouldn't I be able to do so on my Camaro.

2. Traction???

What type of rear suspension to run? I am definitely not keeping the leaf springs I actually plan on doing some sort of custom frame. I am leaning toward using either a triangulated 4 bar or a torque arm style rear suspension, but I was thinking of only using a 285-305 rear tire???

3. Gear Ratio??

I am planning on using the Allison transmission so I need to figure out what gear ratio I will have to use to make the gearing similar to the trucks. to do this all I need is a rear gear ratio and tire size for the truck and convert that gear to be the same with the tire size I plan on running with the Camaro.


Please give any input on the above problems.

Thanks

[camcojb]

So some of my concerns now are:

1. Fitting in the engine bay due to height?

I am thinking possible dry sump to allow me to lower the engine down as far as I can so I can run a small cowl hood. If Chevy can run a dry sump on a production Corvette why shouldn't I be able to do so on my Camaro.

2. Traction???

What type of rear suspension to run? I am definitely not keeping the leaf springs I actually plan on doing some sort of custom frame. I am leaning toward using either a triangulated 4 bar or a torque arm style rear suspension, but I was thinking of only using a 285-305 rear tire???

3. Gear Ratio??

I am planning on using the Allison transmission so I need to figure out what gear ratio I will have to use to make the gearing similar to the trucks. to do this all I need is a rear gear ratio and tire size for the truck and convert that gear to be the same with the tire size I plan on running with the Camaro.


Please give any input on the above problems.

Thanks

1. should be able to, no idea where to get one.

2. good luck with traction..................:unibrow:

3. the trucks come with 3.70's but you'll need a much taller gear as the trucks have a 32" or taller tire.

[XcYZ]

How much does a Duramax/Allison weigh in comparison to an aluminum headed SBC or LSx and T56?

What would the car weigh when done?

[Vegas69]

That would be my biggest concern as well. How much nose weight are you going to need to make kit work. I am really impressed with my handling even with a big block, but I have a feeling you will have much more nose weight. I also have a DSE subframe. What are your plans in that dept?

[Ketzer]

Not trying to throw any more negative stuff in here, I LIKE the idea, but be warned the allison is really big. Its definately a good choice, plenty of hop up stuff avail, converters, programmers, etc. You're gonna have to seriously modify the floor though.
Keep asking questions! Keep researching! Can't wait to see what you come up with.


Jeff-

[Camaromax]

Well as far as the fitment and weight goes.

I expect the car to be pushing 4000lbs or so. Not just because of the engine and transmission, but because I want power features as well as sound deadening and a/c. All of these things will add weight.

On the weight loss side I am planning on doing some sort of custom frame. might be something I make myself (like I said I have helped build some dirt circle track cars and have a good understanding of what it takes to put together a good chassis) I have thought about using the corvette stuff upfront and maybe a torque arm or triangulated 4 link in the rear. Also thought about going air ride but I really have not decided.

With building the chassis I plan to build a full frame and basically transplant the camaro body onto it. In Doing this I plan on completely removing the existing floorpan and firewall and rebuilding to suit my needs. I would like to move the engine back as far as I can and by putting a dry sump on the engine I hope this will be possible. ( if you look at the Banks s10 you can see the height difference a dry sump pan makes to the engine. ) This will allow me to lower the engine further down into the chassis. My only concern here is how low will the transmission pan be at this point?

Does anyone have a picture of a Duramax and Allison together from the side so I can compare heights of the pans?

This is definatley not just an engine swap. I do not expect this to be the next engine craze like the ls engines. I believe the only way to successfully complete this swap is probably going to be redesign the car around the engine and transmission. except for maybe somebody going with a pro street theme where nose weight and an engine sticking out of the hood is OK.

I don't know that what I am trying to build is what this site is aimed at. While I am going to build this car to handle I am more focused on having a car I can drive everyday if I want and do it with lots of power and good fuel mileage and all the comfort of a new car. After all whats the point in building a car and spending just as much as I would for a new car if it can't do everything that the new car would and then some.

Thanks again everyone I have to say this is probably on of the friendliest forums I have ever posted on. Many sites just ignore new members. I am very surprised by the response this thread has gotten. :lateral:

[deuce_454]

you even got me wondering if i shouldnt sell the ls1/4l60e combo and do the same..... wonder if the compushift will controll an alison 1000 so i could retain my paddles...

found this btw:
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/chevy/0707dp_1965_chevy_impala_ss_duramax/index.html

film of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4BrHzlOOQg

[Ketzer]

That car was at SEMA but I couldn't find anyone around to talk to about it.:(

Jeff-

[Ketzer]

Does anyone have a picture of a Duramax and Allison together from the side so I can compare heights of the pans?



I just took a look under mine, the tranny pan is actually lower than the oil pan. Granted, I have the oversized pan on mine but I bet even the stocker is still as low as the oil pan. Dunno how you could dry sump the tranny?

Jeff-

[Camaromax]

Thanks for bringing up the Impala again. I forgot about that one. I had seen it before but had not really looked closely at the pics. It looks to me that if the turbo and air intake had been relocated it might have actually fit under the stock hood of the Impala. Either way it looks like the oilpan fit with some notching of the crossmember. So it seems it might actually be easier to fit in their than I first thought. Any body know how close a sbc comes to the hood of one of those Impalas? Just so I can compare to the Camaro.

I there would be room over the fender well or in front of the engine to put the turbo. That appears to be the big obstacle on the Impala. I would like to keep the hood down to about a 2in cowl if possible.

Thanks again

[Camaromax]

Hey found this

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/tech/163_0412_duramax_allison_diesel_engines/index.html

They put a Duramax and Allison into a 1989 1500 4x4 and ended with a curb weight of 4700lbs. Sounds to me like the Durmax isnt as heavy as I first thought.

After looking at pictures of them on Banks website The block does not look all that different from the LS engines. Although it is probably a little beefier and i am sure the heads are heavier than ls heads, I think it maybe close in weight to a big block chevy with iron heads, which isnt that great but isnt that bad at the same time.

[Camaromax]

Ha I should of looked just a second longer. I found a weight for the engine.

Here it is http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/gmheavy2.html

836lbs for those who dont want to follow the link.

Now to find the weight of the trans.

[deuce_454]

i have a 66 impala SS, took out the 327 about 7 years ago so i cant help you on the sbc question.. but it isnt that tall i have a std deck BBC in mine and can fit a 4 inch aircleaner with a drop base, but only with a torquer2 intake... running a dualplane and there is only room for an oem aircleaner or some open element edelbrock crap... so id say it isnt much taller than a 1.gen..

[deuce_454]

but looking at the picture on your last link the tranny looks BIG.... you would propably need to either remote locate the tranny filter and raise the tranny oilpan (perhaps an electric scavenge pump and a gravity feed oil reservoir to the pickup in the tranny pan will buy you some inches) or mount the whole engine/tranny horizontally and have a BIG transmission hump/tunnel

[Camaromax]

Yeah the transmission pan will hang kinda low but they made it fit in the Impalla. Here is the link to a pic of the pan in the Impalla. http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/chevy/0707dp_1965_chevy_impala_ss_duramax/photo_06.html

Right now I am thinking just leave the pans as they are and make it fit. But I dont want to run a huge cowl hood either. Like I said only about 2in hopefully.

Probably going to take up some interior space but I guess we will have to see.

[deuce_454]

would a measurement from the motormounts to the underside of teh hood help?? i can det that tomorrow??

[Camaromax]

yeah I guess that might help as sort of a refrence as to the difference in engine bay height between the two cars.

Thanks

[deuce_454]

yeah I guess that might help as sort of a refrence as to the difference in engine bay height between the two cars.

Thanks

i totally forgot to post this yesterday... there are 20.8 inched from the bolt thru the motormount to the underside of the hood.. and 26.4 inches from the top of the crossmember in the centerline to the stock hood...

[Camaromax]

Thanks, I am not near my camaro right now and it is actually in pieces so I am going to have to find another car to measure from for my comparison. Looks like a trip to the scrap yard is in order.

[CraigMorrison]

CraigMorrison - is there anywhere I can find some info on the 57 Caddy that was mentioned? I have not seen that one yet.


It's a brand new build - There will be a few pics of it on our 09 catalog.

[Camaromax]

Hey I got a question for anyone with a Duramax truck. What rpm is the engine at when you are in O.D. at 70 mph. I need this information to compute what gear to run in my car thanks. Also which transmission do you have 5 or 6 spd and stock or afteer market tire size.

Thanks any help is appreciated

[camcojb]

Hey I got a question for anyone with a Duramax truck. What rpm is the engine at when you are in O.D. at 70 mph. I need this information to compute what gear to run in my car thanks. Also which transmission do you have 5 or 6 spd and stock or afteer market tire size.

Thanks any help is appreciated

mine is an 07.5 with the 6 speed Allison. Stock tires/wheels (265/70-17) it's 1750 rpms or so at 70 mph. Realize that there were two or three different wheel/tire packages stock, so they're not all the same height. This should give you a good idea though. 3.70 gears also, stock on these trucks. Tires are probably 32" or a bit more tall.

Jody