Save GM

[conekiller13]

Save GM!
Copied from Jalopnik

By Ray Wert, 5:02 PM on Tue Nov 11 2008, 2,683 views
Yes friends, get your officially unofficial "SAVE GM" t-shirt before your bank shutters its doors and your credit cards are maxed out! Show your 'merican pride on your chest with these 100% cotton t-shirts. They're also 100% not-made-in-the-US, just like your cars will be if the feds don't step in to bail out the General. Remember, if we're not willing to "SAVE GM" — who will? Act now before GM's lawyers tell to us to pull 'em down. [Unofficial Jalopnik Cafepress Store]


http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2008/11/Save-GM-T-Shirt.jpg

[Nine Ball]

I bought a 2009 Corvette Z06 only 3 weeks ago, and ordered a 2010 Camaro SS last week. Just doing my part :lol:

[conekiller13]

Glad those that can are. If you want to help some more.........I'll take a ZR-1:rofl:

Seriously though if wall st. companies were "too big to fail" where does that put the auto industry. GM was the biggest employer in the world.....now surpased by Walmart but think of all the secondary losses in the support industries..........a good chunk of the sema show. :willy:

[brans72]

not to crash this or anything cause i like GM but don't you think they should help there self before we bail them out? i think some people up top should take a pay cut cause there overpaid in my opinion and my .02

[slownova]

the back better say "death to UAW" or down with UAW or something :lol:

[fesler]

We just bought a new HD as well to help them out.

[camcojb]

bought a new Saturn for my son in 07, new Duramax for myself in 07, two new GMC work trucks in 08. Doesn't count 7 other new GM vehicles from 91-07.

Jody

[BRIAN]

GM has to save themselves with better quality plain and simple. Great mechanical but the designers are out to lunch. Love USA and try buying US stuff as much as possible but I am not going to buy junk to line someone elses pocket.

Wife wanted new SRX? SUV last year. Went to look at it and the paint was blotchy all down the side. Explained I wanted car that wasn't hit. They took me to the lot where there were about 5 more each with the same problem. The dealer told me it is just the way silver looks and we were crazy. A 5 year old could have picked it out. This isn't a $20k car. Same cheap plastic adds, cheasy knobs, and just a real $5 plastic look everywhere.

GM killed GM. The Vette is the only thing worth buying but even there they just can't keep the cheap mentality away. Ever compare the leather in Vette to a BMW or Porsche. Where does GM find cows that even have a cheap feel. Spend time in a German car and you will never go back.

Shame as the mechanicals have always been on top but as always wrapped in cheap nonsense. Side vents on a $60,000 Escalade look like they were just bought from Pep Boys on sale.

[rjsjea]

Hate to say it but the union's need to reside to the fact that health benefits for life, raises every contract etc.... Need to be adjusted. I am a union member (not in the auto industry) and we can't touch the benefit packages they get.

[surreyboy]

bought a new trailblazer ss and sold it, ive seen better fit and finish on kias.Bought a new escalade and it was marginally better . when i see my friends import suvs you can really tell who was worried about shipping all our jobs to mexico and who was concerned about their product.The only bad thing is this is a catch 22, i dont want to help the corporations at all because they literally do not give a damn about anyone of us.They never have, never will, we are just numbers to them. But if they fail it means their millionaire employees will remain rich and all the working class Gm employees will be out of jobs and SOL.

[dj3]

Loyalty is a 2 way street and GM has proven in the past that they have no problem tugging on our patriotism to make a quick buck. When they recover the same CEO's and upper management will then sell the American worker out the first chance they have to make a few extra bucks. After all how many of your GM vehicles already have made in Mexico engines in them now.

[bigtyme1]

GM needs to sell off there Saab devision and consitrate on the americna market, Saab has done nothing but bring the market down.Saab has to be the worst investment GM ever purchased. there reputation for part and service is worse then the UGO. The Hummer marlet is killing them as well. Although I love the Hummer the gas problem is slowing sales down. Toyota is heading in the number one direction and if they get there, there's nothing going to stop them. If they got rid of the union and had health benifits and 401K like most of the corps out there they could save billions.

[XcYZ]

72cHfOKoA1c

General Motors on Sunday released a YouTube video extolling the lesser evil of a government bailout for the Detroit Three automakers. The four-minute piece reiterates many of the arguments being made by proponents of a government loan package, namely the fact that the American auto industry is one of the largest economic multipliers of any sector of the U.S. economy. A key argument is a potential loss of tax revenue would dwarf the cost of a bailout, not to mention a massive drop in GDP.

The video indicates the industry is faced with an “imminent collapse” that could lead to the loss of 3 million jobs in 2009. The thinking is the failure of either GM, Ford, or Chrysler would would lead to the immediate collapse of the other two, due to the impact on the numerous shared suppliers and other related industries.

[rich-allen]

Look, it's ridiculous when GM employees purchase more than $17M in Viagra from the health benefit package ($17m was for 2007 only). The biggest purchaser of Viagra in the US !!

My wife has a friend that got laid off from GM two years ago. Because of an agreement with the UAW and GM, she gets 95% of her salary until she is able to find a job that pays as much as she made with GM.
The kicker; to qualify for the 95% salary supplement she gets from GM, all she has to do is show up at GM plant each day and sit with 300 - 400 other employees for 8 hours a day. Please explain how that makes sense?

The room they sit in has 5, 52" large screen plasma TV's, free coffee, donuts, restrooms and parking. Some of the people bring cots to sleep while others even bring the kids during the summer months.

This is happening across the country, GM has thousands of laid off employees getting this package.
The union has got GM by the nuts and unless they are allowed to fail the union has the upper hand.

It makes me sick to see those auto workers riding little robotic equipment while installing parts of the cars... Anyone else ever see that ****? The workers don't have to bust a grape. Try to find a picture of a GM worker with sweat on his or her brow.... It's stupifying.


GM can put out all the propaganda they want but I feel that without getting a handle on the mandatory benefits, medical packages and pension payments the unions have contracted them for, they won't ever survive.
Bail out or not.





I'm not a union hater, in fact I'm a union member. Like most of you, I pay more than my fair share of taxes.



Rich

[fesler]

Look, it's ridiculous when GM employees purchase more than $17M in Viagra from the health benefit package ($17m was for 2007 only). The biggest purchaser of Viagra in the US !!

My wife has a friend that got laid off from GM two years ago. Because of an agreement with the UAW and GM, she gets 95% of her salary until she is able to find a job that pays as much as she made with GM.
The kicker; to qualify for the 95% salary supplement she gets from GM, all she has to do is show up at GM plant each day and sit with 300 - 400 other employees for 8 hours a day. Please explain how that makes sense?

The room they sit in has 5, 52" large screen plasma TV's, free coffee, donuts, restrooms and parking. Some of the people bring cots to sleep while others even bring the kids during the summer months.

This is happening across the country, GM has thousands of laid off employees getting this package.
The union has got GM by the nuts and unless they are allowed to fail the union has the upper hand.

It makes me sick to see those auto workers riding little robotic equipment while installing parts of the cars... Anyone else ever see that ****? The workers don't have to bust a grape. Try to find a picture of a GM worker with sweat on his or her brow.... It's stupifying.


GM can put out all the propaganda they want but I feel that without getting a handle on the mandatory benefits, medical packages and pension payments the unions have contracted them for, they won't ever survive.
Bail out or not.





I'm not a union hater, in fact I'm a union member. Like most of you, I pay more than my fair share of taxes.



Rich

Like it or not it is just going to get worse unless we the people change the way we think and work. We want want want but no one wants to work for it. When you work 6 days a week at over 10-12 hours a day to keep things going and the government just wants to take more and more how long can you hold out for. FIX THE GOVERNMENT and you fix the problems.

GM has the most retirements so they have huge payouts everymonth. Toyota has not been around long enough to feel it but they will over time. Unless they dont care about their workers at least GM stands behind them for the most part. Not saying they are perfect but I know alot of guys that have retired from GM and they are very well taken care of and I think that is the largest problem they have.

[Vegas69]

The real problem is some think it's always a supposed to be a gravy train. I was at a friends house last week and a lady there was saying how bad things are. I had to ask what is so damn bad? I don't know of any generation that hasn't had their own obstacles. Most much worse.
I am sure GM will get bailed out so it's about a worthless discussion. How about not making so many cars. It's a pretty simple business practice called supply and demand. You have 100 trucks on the lot it's going to be a buyers market. Toyota only sends enough trucks to create a market to where they can get a reasonable amount. Not have to give the farm away on every truck or car. How about trying to get after Americas youth. Eventually the tried and true mid western americans aren't going to be around to buy American anymore. No one around here buys domestic cars. For a successful professional like myself...I feel like Caddilac is my only choice from GM and domestic auto makers. Still has the old man stigma in my mind. Things have to change if they aren't going to need bailed out again in 2 years. The same old strategies that have failed, will fail next time. This roller coaster ride is far from over.

[Moose]

I think that some stuff has just gotten over priced. 52K for a new pickup truck that I was looking at is a big hit. I'm going to end getting a used dually diesel..

[rwhite692]

My opinion, If the automakers do go down, there will be no debate as to whether or not we will go into a full-on economic depression as opposed to a "bad recession" or just having a "lousy economy".



Not only that, but the knowledge loss to the country will be tremendous if that industry is gone, and that is a very hard thing to put a price tag on.

People in this country are, by and large, completely ignorant of the massive consequences that are at stake here. They are completely numb from hearing about all the wall street issues these last few months, and feel this is just “more of the same” stuff.



On top of that, the media has spent decades conditioning people to believe that the American auto industry just doesn't produce anything that is any good at all, when we all know that some of what they produce is best-in-class, and best in the world in many cases.


Rich you are right, the employee situation is a complete mess. My hope is that any money they get, will come with some real enforceable stipulations on how they must use it (hopefully to reduce their pension and healthcare obligations for retirees and get that monkey off their backs…complete restructuring, union re-negotiations, etc, etc). Part of the problem, for GM in particular, is bad mortgage debt via GMAC financing (Ditech) So they should be directed to get out of that business...

I never would have had a manufacturing plant to go to work in back in NY as a college kid and get my career started, if it wasn’t for these three guys who were our main customers. I also spent many years in the defense industry and saw the auto makers technology contributions there firsthand. It is not an exaggeration to say that it is a real national security issue if they were to disappear.


Anyway...enough ranting...Even though they have HUGE management problems, I still called my congressman in support of help in the form of LOANS for the US auto industry.

[tellyv]

Ok heres my 2 cents, I own a bodyshop I really dont sell parts or have an inventory of stuff besides paint and materials but lets look at it this way, say I sold tires and I have a huge inventory that I already paid for now my buisness is about to fail what do you do? sit on my pile of tires and keep them at retail price or do I cut my loss and sell them even if its less than I paid for them its not smart but at least I can pay my bills and stay open for awhile longer. Now I know gm is having some good sales but give me a break if your about to go out of buisness sell some of this stuff and sell it cheap, your not going to be selling these gas guzzlers anyway so price them to move even if you loose some money at least you'll keep your doors open. Price them cheap and sell them with no warranty so they wont loose out even more in the end and if you want a warranty you'll have to pay for it.

[BRIAN]

Ok I admit I was shopping for a Trailblazer SS and when I just went on the Chevy web site they have an entire section with the video and links telling people what they can do to save them and the US Auto Industry.

I have to say that is pretty scary when a Co. puts something like that out there. Things have to be beyond bad. The effect would be pretty devastating. For those who think that the Gov bailing them out and that there is nothing to worry about should read some articles being posted.

Most feel that the Auto Industry should be left to file Chapter 11 and let whatever happens happen. The banks were bailed out as they feared everybody would pull their money out of banks. From what I gather they are treating GM as any other Co in trouble and feel bailing them out would be a poor investment.

Problem is with all the scare who is going to buy a car not knowing what will happen. Not good!!!! It will also cripple the aftermarket part and service Industries.

They have to bail them out????

[trapin]

I'm at the point now where I'm so pissed off at all the haters that I'm almost hoping my company goes under as well as Ford and Chrysler. Than I can sit back and watch all the people who thought they wouldn't be effected run around with their hair on fire.

It's amazing the twisted logic of some people.

"Let them go down...they deserve it...their cars are junk....teach them a lesson"

Yeah....that's a terrific idea. Let the thousands of retirees who did nothing wrong and busted their asses for 30-40 years lose 75% of their pensions because some idiot in rural Nebraska with no connection to the auto industry has a point to prove.

Yeah....that's makes a lot of sense.

Anyone up for a little collateral damage? :captain:

[TonyG]

Ok heres my 2 cents, I own a bodyshop I really dont sell parts or have an inventory of stuff besides paint and materials but lets look at it this way, say I sold tires and I have a huge inventory that I already paid for now my buisness is about to fail what do you do? sit on my pile of tires and keep them at retail price or do I cut my loss and sell them even if its less than I paid for them its not smart but at least I can pay my bills and stay open for awhile longer. Now I know gm is having some good sales but give me a break if your about to go out of buisness sell some of this stuff and sell it cheap, your not going to be selling these gas guzzlers anyway so price them to move even if you loose some money at least you'll keep your doors open. Price them cheap and sell them with no warranty so they wont loose out even more in the end and if you want a warranty you'll have to pay for it.

This is the best advice given in the simplest analogy.. But do you think they will do that. nope. and why? GREED. The same reason they are in the situation they are in. The entire country is going to **** for this same reason.

[jeff hanson]

I'm at the point now where I'm so pissed off at all the haters that I'm almost hoping my company goes under as well as Ford and Chrysler. Than I can sit back and watch all the people who thought they wouldn't be effected run around with their hair on fire.

It's amazing the twisted logic of some people.

"Let them go down...they deserve it...their cars are junk....teach them a lesson"

Yeah....that's a terrific idea. Let the thousands of retirees who did nothing wrong and busted their asses for 30-40 years lose 75% of their pensions because some idiot in rural Nebraska with no connection to the auto industry has a point to prove.

Yeah....that's makes a lot of sense.

Anyone up for a little collateral damage? :captain:

:hail: :hail: Tony, I couldn't have said it better myself. Some people have to get a frickin clue!

[BRIAN]

So we are supposed to keep buying cars that we know in one way or another are inferior to support a Co with poor management non cost effective labor, and burdened with paying off the old time pensions??? They have to prove a change before they get bailed out. Nobody is going to pump money into a Co. like that.

There is no hate on my end. I wish they had gotten it together a long time ago. Even the Vette has a rebate. They should have had that link on their site years ago to help push sales. It is like any other Co just on a grand scale. They are poorly run and with a product that people do not want. There is no need for the big 3 anymore as most car buyers see it in the US. Funny thing is I believe their projected sales outside the USA were growing quickly.

If GM goes they will probably all go as how would the supporting vendors stay afloat. I agree the effects will be devastating. The Hot Rod Industry will also be destroyed as they use a lot of the same suppliers. LS engine parts?

You would think people would be running to GM's site and helping them out. Just a different time as in the 50's there was that USA spirit. I am convinced that people really do not care at all. I will send a letter as they request and think anyone with an interest in the US economy or cars in general should also.

[andrewmp6]

I say let them file chapter 11 which removes all union contracts and let them reopen none union they won't be losing money anymore.Gm pays every auto worker 85 a hour which is there pay and all the benefits they get.When you buy a new gm the biggest chunk of the money goes for workers benefits the raw parts to make it are 2nd.The union contract will not let them hire temp workers so they get stuck paying people not to work.

[XcYZ]

The automotive manufacturing industry is going to follow the textile and steel industry. GM will live, but after they collapse, they will restructure and leave the US. But I'm sure they will leave a couple of assembly plants in the US so they can still say they are made in the USA, just like Toyota and Honda claim. It appears that's what a lot of people want.

[trapin]

So we are supposed to keep buying cars that we know in one way or another are inferior....
They are poorly run and with a product that people do not want.
My God listen to yourself Brian....you've been hanging around the watercooler for far too long. The only reason someone wouldn't want our vehicles for fear of owning an inferior product is because of all the biased rhetoric out there that is fueled by misguided perceptions.

Our cars are inferior? PROVE IT.

I want to see the proof. GO GET ME THE PROOF.

Because I can get the latest JD Power numbers and they tell a different story than the one you're telling. You might say you're not a hater but you sure sound like one. I just hope you can keep your job for your family's sake if we go under because the trickle-down effect is going to brush right by your nose my friend. If you think otherwise...you haven't been paying attention.

[tellyv]

Maybe if things go bad for my company I can call up the gov. and get a bailout also? Like that would happen, so why do I have to pay for their mistakes its bs. I'm sick of being a good person who pays for the stuff I buy and didnt go borrow for every stupid ass toy or bought or built a home that I didnt need. This is a long time comming just like our whole economy big buisness waisting money the ceo's getting rich let them spend their own damn money to bail themselves out. If gm and the big 3 go down and we have to pay what do we get out of it? cheaper cars or a break on parts, I highly doubt it, how much money did they spend at sema? maybe they should look at how they spend money they dont have, that wont happen because they dont have to take responsibility for the way they spend their money cause they know we'll bail them out. I hope they dont go under for the employees and our economy's sake but I know as a nation we shouldnt have to take money out of our pockets to keep them running.

[XcYZ]

Because I can get the latest JD Power numbers and they tell a different story than the one you're telling.


From Freep:

Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.

Reality

The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.

J.D. Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.


Another interesting number; General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year.






I have no idea what the answer is but thought it should be noted that today's vehicles, built in this country, are as good as anyone's.

What I don't understand is the $700bn handout to Wall Street is ok, but helping the Big 3 with what comes to 3.5% of the amount of what Wall Street is recieving is a bad thing. Shouldn't we be demanding the same thing, if not more, of Wall Street? Fire the administrations, demand transparency, etc, etc.

Again, I have no idea how it's going to be fixed, all of this sucks.

[sniper]

I'm at the point now where I'm so pissed off at all the haters that I'm almost hoping my company goes under as well as Ford and Chrysler. Than I can sit back and watch all the people who thought they wouldn't be effected run around with their hair on fire.

It's amazing the twisted logic of some people.

"Let them go down...they deserve it...their cars are junk....teach them a lesson"

Yeah....that's a terrific idea. Let the thousands of retirees who did nothing wrong and busted their asses for 30-40 years lose 75% of their pensions because some idiot in rural Nebraska with no connection to the auto industry has a point to prove.

Yeah....that's makes a lot of sense.

Anyone up for a little collateral damage? :captain:

Your too close to this situtation to have an objective view.
I find it ironic that you are up in arms about people not wanting to bail your company out, but where is your anger at your company for not building products that people WANT!
Those retireees you speak of are a huge part of the problem. They are drawing huge pensions and are providing nothing in return, hence the word pension. Can you agree that, that business model is a failed one?
Can you agree that NO company can survive by paying retired employees for the rest of their lives and still be a profitable business?
If GM went under those retirees wouldn't lose 75% of their pensions, that is just a false. Would those accounts not get turned over to the Pension benefit guarentee corporation?
Why would GM going into bankruptcy harm it? It's supposed to be an instrument of accoutnablitity for a company to rebound.
Why as well is GM crying if they don't get the bail out then they will go out of business? That's a load of ****. Is there nothing they can cut or reduce production to stay in business and again become profitable.

We live in a country that thrives on creative destruction. Where one business fails another stands up behind it.

Bottom line is that a business is not in the business of creating jobs. A business through it's success's creates jobs. A business that builds, creates, or services products that people want or need hire people as a byproduct of success.

If we want the government to bail out companies so that people never lose jobs, why just have the fed pay every citizen $50k a year and they can work however they want?

How many bankruptcies did the airlines go through?
How many thousands of jobs were lost in the textile industry? Where was their bailout?
Seems like you and other like you think the Big 3 is too important to fail or downsize.

PS. this is not a personal attack at anyone but please understand that there are millions of people that are not in the industry that have an outsiders view.

[jeff hanson]

Everyone who thinks that this is a bailout of GM needs to realize that it's a loan, that in turn will bail out hundreds of thousands of people from losing there jobs. The effects of not getting this "loan" will be catastrophic.

As far as the quality goes. We ARE just as good or better than most. The days of old are gone. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we will start to get this country back on track. I honestly do not understand how any American can walk into a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. store right now. It boggles my mind how much lack of support for this country there is. The only good thing I can say about them is that they forced us to step up our game, and we did! Now we have the best warranty in the industry to prove that we can build a quality vehicle and back it up, yet people still buy imports!:willy:

OK, I'm done....BUY AMERICAN!:cheers:

[Rhino]

The problem is purely of perception. Perception is everything, no matter what industry you're in. If the mass populace thinks it's true... it is true to that group. Improving the product is easy, improving the perception is a hard, long road.
The US manufactures are making huge strides in improving their quality. Unfortunately it's falling on the public's deaf ears. :( Until there is something to shake up the market (chp 11 or a huge reorg), the public won't notice and that perception won't change.

I'm a car nut that has followed the new gen Malibu's story and mentioned it to everyone I can. I love the car. Even though I know it's improved, and have seen it's quality first hand, the nameplate has a horrible stigma. My initial reation is that it's a "cheap, plastic filled rental car." Only after that do I remember it's improvements.
The public's perception of the Accord nameplate is quality. At this point Honda can do whatever they want with it, and the public will happily move right along with them.

America has turned into a bunch of sheep.

[sniper]

Everyone who thinks that this is a bailout of GM needs to realize that it's a loan, that in turn will bail out hundreds of thousands of people from losing there jobs. The effects of not getting this "loan" will be catastrophic.

You mean that those employees might feel what most others that are not making $40 and up an hour, feel?

As far as the quality goes. We ARE just as good or better than most. The days of old are gone. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we will start to get this country back on track. I honestly do not understand how any American can walk into a Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc. store right now. It boggles my mind how much lack of support for this country there is. The only good thing I can say about them is that they forced us to step up our game, and we did! Now we have the best warranty in the industry to prove that we can build a quality vehicle and back it up, yet people still buy imports!:willy:

OK, I'm done....BUY AMERICAN!:cheers:


America has turned into a bunch of sheep.
How can you honestly sit there and blame the consumer for not buying these cars? And take no responsibility for the products they are presenting to us for purchase?

Just as an example; How long has honda been building 30+ mpg cars that don't look like the geo metro? Besides buying a foreign car is just as much buying american anymore as buying a GM.

[rwhite692]

Listening to a lot of the testimony on Capitol Hill this AM, it is just amazing how completely ignorant most of our elected officials are as to the size and scope of the American automobile industry and all the associated industries.

They just don't understand it.

The overwhelming position seems to be "It's simple, let them fail and restructure under Chapter 11".

What they don't realize is that if they go into Bankruptcy, their sales won't recover...no one is going to buy "durable goods" products from companies that are in Chapter 11. Suppliers will cease to extend credit terms to them, and will demand payment on delivery, and the cash burn rate alone would be enough to kill them.

Not to mention how everyone conveniently forgets how the industry gave it's support to the war effort during WWII...and how much technology these three have contributed across ALL forms of industry...

It's all "what have you done for me lately"...What a piss-poor state of affairs...

The big three unfortunately also have not done a good job these last couple of days with their PR strategy of selling the whole idea of getting these loans, to the legislators or the public...Listening to them testify this AM, They are not being very humble in the way that they are asking for this help...Their testimony has had this kind of "we are entitled to this, we are too big to fail, you just have to do this" kind of vibe...and they are coming across as unprepared for the testimony. Painful to listen to...

Unfortunately what worked for AIG, etc a month or so ago, has now completely fallen out of favor emotionally with the legislators and the public so a different strategy is needed...

[Rhino]

How can you honestly sit there and blame the consumer for not buying these cars? And take no responsibility for the products they are presenting to us for purchase?

Just as an example; How long has honda been building 30+ mpg cars that don't look like the geo metro? Besides buying a foreign car is just as much buying american anymore as buying a GM.

You obviously missed the total point of my post.

Whether or not many people notice, the US automakers have made huge strides in quality. Take a look at GM interiors within the past 2 years vs a few years prior. The quality gap between the US and foreign manufactures has been closed significantly.
My point was that the public's perception won't change until there is a huge shake up. The general public is currently blind to the increases in quality no matter what the automakers are currently doing.
While their quality has rose, their perception is still the same.

It doesn't matter how long honda's been doing it... what I'm talking about is the fact that the GM is almost on par with them and gaining fast. GM's perception in your eyes still hasn't changed even though they've remedied the situation. If you think Buying a Honda is the same as buying GM, you really need to follow the money trail to see where it ends up.

[sniper]

You obviously missed the total point of my post.

Whether or not many people notice, the US automakers have made huge strides in quality. Take a look at GM interiors within the past 2 years vs a few years prior. The quality gap between the US and foreign manufactures has been closed significantly.
My point was that the public's perception won't change until there is a huge shake up. The general public is currently blind to the increases in quality no matter what the automakers are currently doing.
While their quality has rose, their perception is still the same.

I missed nothing. This argument is not about quality. Those huge strides have come real damn late. And if that is in fact true, then restructuring under chalter 11 might be exactly what they need to do. Reduce the number of and types of vehicles and sell the **** out of those to get back on their feet.


It doesn't matter how long honda's been doing it... what I'm talking about is the fact that the GM is almost on par with them and gaining fast. GM's perception in your eyes still hasn't changed even though they've remedied the situation.

Don't talk about what's in my eyes. I own a ford, chevy, jeep, hond and a damn yamaha bike.
If you think Buying a Honda is the same as buying GM, you really need to follow the money trail to see where it ends up.
I DON'T CARE WHERE THE PROFITS GO! It's none of my business. If any of us really did we wouldn't be buying so many chinese goods. And if you are buying those you are just blowing smoke.

If you cannot stay on topic then there is never anything that anyone can say that will affect your way of thinking. The idea of where the profits go, is an ENTIRELY different subject. But you cannot deny that there are thousands of jobs at foreign manufactures right here in the US. Would you rather them go under and lose those jobs, even though they are producing cars people want, so that you can keep your job?

You and the big 3 are relying on blind loyalty. Sorry, but that is gone.

[Vegas69]

I'm not against the loan so to speak. It's got to be done the right way. There needs to be specific language on how the money can be used. Let's face it....if one of them goes under then we won't be paid in full. The loan should come with forced changes in the way they do business as well. The execs and union should make some concessions along with the workers. The worst thing is a loan with lousy conditions attached. I agree that they needs to blow out some of the excess inventory and recover some of there own liquidity. Stop producing vehicles that are saturated. I just don't understand how all three can be going broke. We just went through a huge car buying revolution. How about socking away some reserves. Sounds a lot like the Real Estate/Banking situation doesn't it. Feast on the good times and not prepare for the bad.

[trapin]

Your too close to this situtation to have an objective view. I find it ironic that you are up in arms about people not wanting to bail your company out, but where is your anger at your company for not building products that people WANT!
On the contrary, I'm close enough to the situation where I've almost been fired for my distaste of this company's past sins. Money wasted on programs that never saw the light of day when it was obvious they were a waste of time. I was there when the Aztek clay model was sitting in the hallway covered in Dynoc for a Board Of Directors show and I blasted the thing in front of everyone. Hell I've even been yelled at on this website and PT.com for my attitude towards GM's business decisions. I am no "yes man". I spoke up, I was subjective, and I got hit in the mouth for it. Not to stroke my ego or to hear myself talk, but because I care a great deal about my company's future because it impacts MY future and MY FAMILY'S future. We've come a long way since then and I truly believe we are building the best cars we ever have in our 100 years. I've done my part. And by the way...8.5 million people wanted our products last year. Not bad...but room for improvement.

Those retireees you speak of are a huge part of the problem. They are drawing huge pensions and are providing nothing in return, hence the word pension. Can you agree that, that business model is a failed one?
Can you agree that NO company can survive by paying retired employees for the rest of their lives and still be a profitable business?
I am in favor of health care being ceased for retirees (as I won't get it when I retire due to my hire-in date) but I believe you have to leave the pensions alone. The pension money is not free money....those retirees paid into that pension all throughout their careers. They have it coming, it's their money.

If GM went under those retirees wouldn't lose 75% of their pensions, that is just a false. Would those accounts not get turned over to the Pension benefit guarentee corporation? Why would GM going into bankruptcy harm it? It's supposed to be an instrument of accoutnablitity for a company to rebound.
Based on the conversations I've had with a number of retirees that I know, they are all telling me that if GM were to go Chapter 7 then they would indeed lose anywhere from 50%-70% of their pensions. I trust what they're saying because I know these old-timers have probably been doing their homework amidst all this chaos and that the Pension Benefit Gauranty Corporation does not necessarily guarantee you will get your full pension. Read the site, it's in the FAQ.

Is there nothing they can cut to stay in business and again become profitable.
Yeah....my job. Hence the pissed off attitude. I have a family too ya know.

[Rhino]

I missed nothing. This argument is not about quality. Those huge strides have come real damn late. And if that is in fact true, then restructuring under chalter 11 might be exactly what they need to do. Reduce the number of and types of vehicles and sell the **** out of those to get back on their feet.

Don't talk about what's in my eyes. I own a ford, chevy, jeep, hond and a damn yamaha bike.

I DON'T CARE WHERE THE PROFITS GO! It's none of my business. If any of us really did we wouldn't be buying so many chinese goods. And if you are buying those you are just blowing smoke.

If you cannot stay on topic then there is never anything that anyone can say that will affect your way of thinking. The idea of where the profits go, is an ENTIRELY different subject. But you cannot deny that there are thousands of jobs at foreign manufactures right here in the US. Would you rather them go under and lose those jobs, even though they are producing cars people want, so that you can keep your job?

You and the big 3 are relying on blind loyalty. Sorry, but that is gone.

When I read your response to my post I misread your response. That's why I was speaking of quality.

I don't agree with your argument that buying foreign is just as much American as a US manufacturer. In my eyes, if more money ends up in foreign hands, buying an import is not the same as buying American.
The reason I bring profit into it is that the end location of the money is really all that separates all auto manufacturers. They're all building them in the US with Euro designs and engines built on a completely different continent.
I don't want the imports to go under either. They've increased competition, which is ultimately good for the consumer. As you have already pointed out they also create US jobs as well.

Even though GM is where my heart lies, I'm far from blind to the competition. I own Chevrolet, Pontiac, Dodge, Jeep, and a Suzuki bike. Through my Fiance I have access to Honda and Acura. From my experience so far, honda hasn't treated us any better than GM or Chrysler.

[surreyboy]

Gm isnt going bankrupt because of quality, because for the past decade when all the "rich" people were buying hummers and vettes on gmac the quality was good enough for them.Gm's looming failure is due the credit crisis/recession whatever you want to call it not bad quality.and running out and buying gm right now will not solve anything, in fact its what got us into this mess.

[BRIAN]

Unlike most people here I use my real name. Anybody who knows me will tell you I am pro buying US built cars and blast every magazine for being Japanese biased. I will never own a Japanese car simply as I feel they are engineered to last a specific amount of time and that is it. Nobody can look at a Japanese part and tell me it wasn't engineered to just do its job and get by at it. US mfg's on the hand were building alternator brackets that have lasted 40 years and can support the weight of the car itself. Cars should be bought on what you want not what some biased magazine tells you and the field would be even.

I totally agree with the perception concept. Where are all these 300k mile Japanese cars??? Were are all the 10 year old Lexus and Infiniti's??? Try and kill a Chevy Cavalier? You can't but the problem is it is ugly as hell and the cosmetics fall apart and that is what consumers see.

GM has refused to use quality interior parts heck they still insist on throwing the same knobs from a $10k car into a $65k car. Consumers notice this. You can't hide quality of leather in a Caddy compared to a BMW.


I want nothing more to see the big three pull through but after watching the hearings I sadly have to say they just still do not have a plan for a change. Where is the presentation of the REAL new cars that will appear to the public. They wasted their time and money on the Vettes, Camaro, and Challangers. These are not what will pull them out, the next Ford Taurus will.

Perception is also their fault. They do not advertise that GM produces so many fuel effecient cars. Can anybody here name the cars that Ford makes besides the Mustang? Besides the Malibu what is GM other cars???
We are car guys in the Industry who can't answer this let alone the 18year old who is next in line to make these purchases.

It does not look good and hope all will take action as I did. Look at all the posts today, this should be the top post and everybody should be sending off emails. Problem is people do not care. They only care about themselves and that means they can but a car somewhere else. Sorry state of affairs.

I am on your side but again it does not look good!!

[TonyL]

aaand this morning all three executives showed up in their private jets at a cost of $22,000 PER COMPANY. the price of a first class ticket? 800 bucks.

These guys JUST DONT GET IT. Dont stand on a street corner in an armani suit with your hand out. Start ACTING like you're hurting and people might believe it. Loan or no, There is NO EVIDENCE that any of the big three have a plan to get themselves out of the habits that got them where they are. You dont give money to a crack addict that hasn't been to rehab. These guys are just going to blow whatever we give them. Bad businesses deserve to die. Another company or companies will rise up to take their place. Sometimes you have to cut off a rotting limb so the body can survive. It hurts, but it's what has to be done.

[Vegas69]

Bingo.....somebody will buy them and make them profitable if in fact they fail. Only problem is it probably won't be an American company. Hell it's hard enough to get an American beer now.

[surreyboy]

aaand this morning all three executives showed up in their private jets at a cost of $22,000 PER COMPANY. the price of a first class ticket? 800 bucks.

These guys JUST DONT GET IT. Dont stand on a street corner in an armani suit with your hand out. Start ACTING like you're hurting and people might believe it. Loan or no, There is NO EVIDENCE that any of the big three have a plan to get themselves out of the habits that got them where they are. You dont give money to a crack addict that hasn't been to rehab. These guys are just going to blow whatever we give them. Bad businesses deserve to die. Another company or companies will rise up to take their place. Sometimes you have to cut off a rotting limb so the body can survive. It hurts, but it's what has to be done.

exactly, everyone says we need to bail gm out to protect their hard working employees, which doesnt make any sense because GM execs do not care one bit about their workers, they will ship every single assembly job to any country in the world in a hearbeat. yet people are loyal to the gm brand.

[Rhino]

You looking for a career change Tony? I wonder if we could round up enough voting stock to get you to the top. :)

[monza]

aaand this morning all three executives showed up in their private jets at a cost of $22,000 PER COMPANY. the price of a first class ticket? 800 bucks.

These guys JUST DONT GET IT. Dont stand on a street corner in an armani suit with your hand out. Start ACTING like you're hurting and people might believe it. Loan or no, There is NO EVIDENCE that any of the big three have a plan to get themselves out of the habits that got them where they are. You dont give money to a crack addict that hasn't been to rehab. These guys are just going to blow whatever we give them. Bad businesses deserve to die. Another company or companies will rise up to take their place. Sometimes you have to cut off a rotting limb so the body can survive. It hurts, but it's what has to be done.

Drives me crazy!!
Being in business for myself I hate seeing bailouts- no one comes to bail me out -sink or swim. I realize I'm tiny business, this is global business with a lot of jobs on the line. Sorry for the people involved on this site on a personal level, I know no one else in the auto industry. Hope it work out for you guys.

Bingo.....somebody will buy them and make them profitable if in fact they fail. Only problem is it probably won't be an American company. Hell it's hard enough to get an American beer now.

IMO I see a major hurdle selling any of the Big 3 if it goes the way of Chapter 11, which I bet it won't. The automotive unions... who in there right mind would want to buy into dealing with that??? They'll be waiting in the back ground for raises, new demands, ready to walk/lock out when they don't get what they want, impossible to run a business hand cuffed to a union. There's the rotting arm to chop off.:beathorse

[ItDoRun]

exactly, everyone says we need to bail gm out to protect their hard working employees, which doesnt make any sense because GM execs do not care one bit about their workers, they will ship every single assembly job to any country in the world in a hearbeat. yet people are loyal to the gm brand.

You're right! All these clue impaired executives give a **** about is their year end bonus! They forget about the people who work to put these bonuses in their back pocket...and their families. It's a real shame this country has developed into this, but it's about time we start holding people ACCOUNTABLE for their decisions. I'm held accountable each and every day at my job, why shouldn't they be?

Let's face it, the day of pensions are slowly fading away. ExxonMobil is phasing it out. Dow Chemical has been for the last couple of years. And I'm sure there are many other big corporations doing the same that I'm not aware of.

I really feel for those that could potentially lose most, if not, all of their retirement. Hopefully it all works out for those people.

[TonyL]

t's about time we start holding people ACCOUNTABLE for their decisions. I'm held accountable each and every day at my job, why shouldn't they be?


Exactly. The big three is spending money right now producing scary videos showing what will happen if they fail. Not mentioning that the suppliers and manufacturers of their parts also produce parts for honda, toyota, and every other major manufacturer in the business. Their jobs, im sure, are safe. Dealerships will adapt to sell products that *actually sell* for once. Many of those jobs will be still exist. Im sure a HUGE amount of job loss will occur. There will be a painful transition period. But this country was founded on the principal of "the strongest survive" and it needs to stay that way. Coddling these fools who've mishandled their billion dollar industries is NOT the answer.

[Huxsol81]

aaand this morning all three executives showed up in their private jets at a cost of $22,000 PER COMPANY. the price of a first class ticket? 800 bucks.


WELL SAID!!!!!! :thumbsup:

[camaro2nv]

http://buzz.yahoo.com/article/1:y_featured:9573bcd29a6c4540cbfc109f721afc34;_ylt =AqyIs2PgWzpNS_BbbLuLuk8azJV4
The best part about this all is this has been going on for years. If they cant get it straight by now what makes anyone think they'll be able to get it right after they get the cash.

[Tony_SS]

aaand this morning all three executives showed up in their private jets at a cost of $22,000 PER COMPANY. the price of a first class ticket? 800 bucks.

These guys JUST DONT GET IT. Dont stand on a street corner in an armani suit with your hand out. Start ACTING like you're hurting and people might believe it. Loan or no, There is NO EVIDENCE that any of the big three have a plan to get themselves out of the habits that got them where they are. You dont give money to a crack addict that hasn't been to rehab. These guys are just going to blow whatever we give them. Bad businesses deserve to die. Another company or companies will rise up to take their place. Sometimes you have to cut off a rotting limb so the body can survive. It hurts, but it's what has to be done.

I agree Tony, but the government bailout package is already an approved multi-trillion dollar crime scheme IMO. The relatively small percentage GM is asking for would only be a loan and not a gift. If they are going to save these banks that are too large to fail, I would say it's not only fair, but responsible to bailout our automotive industry. Especially at this time. To risk the potential loss of millions of jobs would shatter consumer confidence and might put us closer to a depression.

[rich-allen]

Has anyone noticed the UAW hasn't come out to play? No big speech's, threats.. Hell, they don't have a word to say!
IMO, the UAW broke the back of the US auto industry years ago but were just finding out how bad it's been because of the home mortgage crisis.

I don't think the retired workers should lose their medical coverage. Medical insurance for older Americans can run up to $1200 Mo and that would be worng
Someone posted earlier; "the workers invested into the pension fund, it's their money and they deserve to keep it" that's simply wrong. The pension fund is part of a benefit package they receive as part of the UAW agreement. You can't elect to not invest in the pension fund, in other words, if the pension plan didn't exist you wouldn't get the $5.90 Hr the put into the pension fund added to your pay check.
The UAW controls those pensions, they use it as leverage for a whole host of stuff.

I employee 34 men and women. Most of which belong to the Ironworker's Union. The average employee gets $34 on the check but I pay $83.21 per hour for those wages and the benefit package.

Non Union workers in the same trade make an average $18- $30.00 and generally receive some sort of medical from their employer.

This doesn't negate the fact the retired workers planned their lives around having that pension plan later on.
Do they deserve a $7k a month retirement package? LOL... I let you be the judge.



This is a huge mess and I don't feel like paying for someone Else's mistakes.
I didn't agree with the other companies getting bailed out either. If the country has to go into a recession for a year or so then that's what it has to do.

This country was founded on free markets, not government intervention.

I'm sorry if that bothers anyone, that's just my opinion.
I still love you.


Rich

[TonyL]

The relatively small percentage GM is asking for would only be a loan and not a gift.

Paulson already has said that there is NO WAY that they're getting any of the 700 billion approved for the financial bailout. The auto companies are asking for a whole different bailout package, just for them, *in addition* to the 25 billion they've already gotten this year. The thing about loans is, for you and me, there's an approval process, you have to prove credit worthiness to be loaned any money.

How's the big three planning on paying you and me back? By staying in business until they run out of OUR money again? No thanks. Die now, without my money.
They haven't said what they are planning to do differently. They wont even acknowledge that THEY are the fault. They blame the consumer, the economy, anyone but themselves for why they are losing billions. Bad ideas, bad deals, and bad cars = bad times for them. Show the US something. ANY great idea that's bound to make money, or a world beater product. Fire SOMEONE at the high level and say "it's HIS fault." But they won't.

[Damn True]

I'm opposed to any form of loan to the big 2.5 that does not ensure massive restructuring of their Union contracts. The model they are operating under is not sustainable.

[sniper]

Just another perspective.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=3&oref=slogin

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year’s Republican presidential nomination.

[Vegas69]

Just another perspective.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=3&oref=slogin

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

Without that bailout, Detroit will need to drastically restructure itself. With it, the automakers will stay the course — the suicidal course of declining market shares, insurmountable labor and retiree burdens, technology atrophy, product inferiority and never-ending job losses. Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.

I love cars, American cars. I was born in Detroit, the son of an auto chief executive. In 1954, my dad, George Romney, was tapped to run American Motors when its president suddenly died. The company itself was on life support — banks were threatening to deal it a death blow. The stock collapsed. I watched Dad work to turn the company around — and years later at business school, they were still talking about it. From the lessons of that turnaround, and from my own experiences, I have several prescriptions for Detroit’s automakers.

First, their huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.

That extra burden is estimated to be more than $2,000 per car. Think what that means: Ford, for example, needs to cut $2,000 worth of features and quality out of its Taurus to compete with Toyota’s Avalon. Of course the Avalon feels like a better product — it has $2,000 more put into it. Considering this disadvantage, Detroit has done a remarkable job of designing and engineering its cars. But if this cost penalty persists, any bailout will only delay the inevitable.

Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”

You don’t have to look far for industries with unions that went down that road. Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th. This will mean a new direction for the U.A.W., profit sharing or stock grants to all employees and a change in Big Three management culture.

The need for collaboration will mean accepting sanity in salaries and perks. At American Motors, my dad cut his pay and that of his executive team, he bought stock in the company, and he went out to factories to talk to workers directly. Get rid of the planes, the executive dining rooms — all the symbols that breed resentment among the hundreds of thousands who will also be sacrificing to keep the companies afloat.

Investments must be made for the future. No more focus on quarterly earnings or the kind of short-term stock appreciation that means quick riches for executives with options. Manage with an eye on cash flow, balance sheets and long-term appreciation. Invest in truly competitive products and innovative technologies — especially fuel-saving designs — that may not arrive for years. Starving research and development is like eating the seed corn.

Just as important to the future of American carmakers is the sales force. When sales are down, you don’t want to lose the only people who can get them to grow. So don’t fire the best dealers, and don’t crush them with new financial or performance demands they can’t meet.

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

But don’t ask Washington to give shareholders and bondholders a free pass — they bet on management and they lost.

The American auto industry is vital to our national interest as an employer and as a hub for manufacturing. A managed bankruptcy may be the only path to the fundamental restructuring the industry needs. It would permit the companies to shed excess labor, pension and real estate costs. The federal government should provide guarantees for post-bankruptcy financing and assure car buyers that their warranties are not at risk.

In a managed bankruptcy, the federal government would propel newly competitive and viable automakers, rather than seal their fate with a bailout check.

Mitt Romney, the former governor of Massachusetts, was a candidate for this year’s Republican presidential nomination.

Can someone give me a summary.:rofl: :rofl:

[TonyL]

HAHAHAHAHAAH *GASP* HAHAHAHAHAH (http://jalopnik.com/5093642/congressman-urges-automaker-ceos-to-jetpool-when-heading-to-dc-begging-for-money?autoplay=true)

/comedy gold. That guy deserves his seat.

[XLexusTech]

Has anyone noticed the UAW hasn't come out to play? No big speech's, threats.. Hell, they don't have a word to say!
IMO, the UAW broke the back of the US auto industry years ago but were just finding out how bad it's been because of the home mortgage crisis.

I don't think the retired workers should lose their medical coverage. Medical insurance for older Americans can run up to $1200 Mo and that would be worng
Someone posted earlier; "the workers invested into the pension fund, it's their money and they deserve to keep it" that's simply wrong. The pension fund is part of a benefit package they receive as part of the UAW agreement. You can't elect to not invest in the pension fund, in other words, if the pension plan didn't exist you wouldn't get the $5.90 Hr the put into the pension fund added to your pay check.
The UAW controls those pensions, they use it as leverage for a whole host of stuff.

I employee 34 men and women. Most of which belong to the Ironworker's Union. The average employee gets $34 on the check but I pay $83.21 per hour for those wages and the benefit package.

Non Union workers in the same trade make an average $18- $30.00 and generally receive some sort of medical from their employer.

This doesn't negate the fact the retired workers planned their lives around having that pension plan later on.
Do they deserve a $7k a month retirement package? LOL... I let you be the judge.



This is a huge mess and I don't feel like paying for someone Else's mistakes.
I didn't agree with the other companies getting bailed out either. If the country has to go into a recession for a year or so then that's what it has to do.

This country was founded on free markets, not government intervention.

I'm sorry if that bothers anyone, that's just my opinion.
I still love you.


Rich

I know the is an unpopular opinion but I agree with it anyway! :cheers:

[Tony_SS]

HAHAHAHAHAAH *GASP* HAHAHAHAHAH (http://jalopnik.com/5093642/congressman-urges-automaker-ceos-to-jetpool-when-heading-to-dc-begging-for-money?autoplay=true)

/comedy gold. That guy deserves his seat.

LoL.. seriously, with decisions like that, no wonder they're looking to file bankruptcy. I don't like the idea of paying for anyone else's mistakes either, and I've been against the .gov bailout from day one. But now that it's already a done deal, we, you and I, our kids, etc are already on the books for at least 850 bil, some say 3.5 trillion. And that went to buy worthless assets to start.. Who knows where else it's going? But they won't bailout the automakers? I guess I fear the worst of what could happen. That and it's sad to see American business either lose or be bought out by foreign interests.

[TonyL]

I hate to see the not so big three fall too. But I cannot wait to see what great American company rises from their ashes. (amc?) That company will be truly awesome, will be unfettered by all the mistakes of the old auto companies, and will give the US an auto industry to be proud of again.

[camaro2nv]

I keep on hearing about how we cant afford for GM to fall. GM talks about all the suppliers they use ect ect. To me it says that the other two companies will do better. Yes its one less choice but the other two will pick up the slack. I must be the only one seeing this or Im missing something.

[Tony_SS]

I hate to see the not so big three fall too. But I cannot wait to see what great American company rises from their ashes. (amc?) That company will be truly awesome, will be unfettered by all the mistakes of the old auto companies, and will give the US an auto industry to be proud of again.

I wouldn't count on it being American owned though... hopefully I'm wrong.

[Flash68]

I'm opposed to any form of loan to the big 2.5 that does not ensure massive restructuring of their Union contracts. The model they are operating under is not sustainable.

Absofrickinglutely.

And I watched some of the testimony on CNBC the other day and I believe it was Chris Dodd who said he isn't sure if we really need all 3 automakers to stay in business. That is a good question and and the answer may very well be no.

The US autos may have been making better cars lately, but they are still way behind in the perception of most people that their stuff is inferior - I don't care about your JD Power ratings. The foreign cars are good cars and the US has been playing catch-up for years. Now add the ridiculous UAW contracts and there's a formula for disaster.

And for those that are comparing this proposed bailout to that of AIG, the Investment Banks, etc. - stop. Not even in the same ballpark. The financial system does not require cars at the end of the day. I think they will get bailed out, but I don't like it. Sure it would hurt if these 3 fail, but it's just another of the very big current problems going on right now. It sucks that any bailouts happened, but the financials absolutely needed it for our system to remain intact. And it's barely remaining intact as it is!

We are in for a pretty big mess these next few years...... Hang on.

[Flash68]

Has anyone noticed the UAW hasn't come out to play? No big speech's, threats.. Hell, they don't have a word to say!
IMO, the UAW broke the back of the US auto industry years ago but were just finding out how bad it's been because of the home mortgage crisis.

I don't think the retired workers should lose their medical coverage. Medical insurance for older Americans can run up to $1200 Mo and that would be worng
Someone posted earlier; "the workers invested into the pension fund, it's their money and they deserve to keep it" that's simply wrong. The pension fund is part of a benefit package they receive as part of the UAW agreement. You can't elect to not invest in the pension fund, in other words, if the pension plan didn't exist you wouldn't get the $5.90 Hr the put into the pension fund added to your pay check.
The UAW controls those pensions, they use it as leverage for a whole host of stuff.

I employee 34 men and women. Most of which belong to the Ironworker's Union. The average employee gets $34 on the check but I pay $83.21 per hour for those wages and the benefit package.

Non Union workers in the same trade make an average $18- $30.00 and generally receive some sort of medical from their employer.

This doesn't negate the fact the retired workers planned their lives around having that pension plan later on.
Do they deserve a $7k a month retirement package? LOL... I let you be the judge.



This is a huge mess and I don't feel like paying for someone Else's mistakes.
I didn't agree with the other companies getting bailed out either. If the country has to go into a recession for a year or so then that's what it has to do.

This country was founded on free markets, not government intervention.

I'm sorry if that bothers anyone, that's just my opinion.
I still love you.


Rich

Could not agree more with you, Rich.

[trapin]

I don't think the retired workers should lose their medical coverage. Medical insurance for older Americans can run up to $1200 Mo and that would be wrong. Someone posted earlier; "the workers invested into the pension fund, it's their money and they deserve to keep it" that's simply wrong. The pension fund is part of a benefit package they receive as part of the UAW agreement. You can't elect to not invest in the pension fund, in other words, if the pension plan didn't exist you wouldn't get the $5.90 Hr the put into the pension fund added to your pay check.
The UAW controls those pensions, they use it as leverage for a whole host of stuff.
Your logic is backwards. In all the years I've worked for GM I have had pension payments deducted from my paycheck (this was when I was not in a salaried union). Those deductions have always been there so yes, I have PAID INTO IT, even when there wasn't some union contract calling the shots for me. So I am entitled to "something" when I go. Also, I am not going to get health insurance when I retire due to my hire-in date and crazy as it might seem...I agree with that. Why the hell should a company be responsible for someone's health care when that person no longer works for them? Geez if we're going to go that far what else can we do for you during your retirement? How about pay for your internet too? Your cable? Maybe we can pick up your phone tab and water bill for ya while we're at it. Gimmie a break.

Much love.

[XcYZ]

I still don't understand how Wall Street can get so much help, but when the Big 3 want a loan for a fraction of the amount, it's the most evil thing in the world. Look what AIG did after they got their billions handed to them - the executives went to some million dollar spa retreat deal...

[brans72]

guess we need to ask our goverment on that note! :yes:

[rich-allen]

Your logic is backwards. In all the years I've worked for GM I have had pension payments deducted from my paycheck (this was when I was not in a salaried union). Those deductions have always been there so yes, I have PAID INTO IT, even when there wasn't some union contract calling the shots for me. So I am entitled to "something" when I go. Also, I am not going to get health insurance when I retire due to my hire-in date and crazy as it might seem...I agree with that. Why the hell should a company be responsible for someone's health care when that person no longer works for them? Geez if we're going to go that far what else can we do for you during your retirement? How about pay for your internet too? Your cable? Maybe we can pick up your phone tab and water bill for ya while we're at it. Gimmie a break.

Much love.

Tony,

I understand your frustration totally. It's not your fault a handful of people ran this American icon into the ground.

My opinion is from first hand experience. I've signed on to 3 of these union contracts myself and I've written checks to those benefit programs totaling over $1M this year alone.
Please don't misconstrued my statements for being anything other than an outside opinion. It's hard to understand when you stand on the other side of the wall.
It bothers me that you have to go through this Tony. The guys at Lateral-G have been great to me and I consider everyone here like a big family, it hurts to see you in this situation.


Respectfully,

Rich Allen

[BRIAN]

The whole jet thing was just a bit out of control. I agree that they should show that reductions come at the top but how many ran at lunch time to have the free catered lunch when the US Govt is in deep financial trouble?? I saw a lot of $500 and up suits also so should they have showed up in sweats???

The problem is they did not show up with a plan. They did nothing to show how they were goin to change their business to assure a return on our investment. The mistake they made was going in there like it was a bank loan and it isn't. Heck, Ford pretty much said they really didn't even need the money and only wanted the left over $3billion to be saved for them in the future.

As important as it is to us there is the other 75% of Americans who just look at them as another business and they should be treated as such. The made a great point as to where does the handouts stop?? What Industry is next.

There is no way all three will survive if one goes down. At least 2 will go and probably the other will be bought or divided up. The suppliers can't take that large of a loss.


I think the union deal is just been beat to death. How anybody can dispute that the UAW in the past got out of control in their demands which they got because of threats to shut down production I am lost. Skilled labor should be rewarded. Unskilled labor should be treated fairly but not payed more than 1st year attorneys. If I do not like my job I leave and better myself to get a better job. I do not continue doing the same exact same thing and demand higher wages and threaten the Co.

Yes you should have extended coverages but what you are not getting is they are paying so much out to past employees it can't be extended to you. You are also being beat out of a whole bunch of stuff because of the greedy guy who came before you. You are paying for it more than me so if you are ok with it I guess you have a plan when you hit 65. I applaud your loyalty but you have to see that not entirely to blame it is part of the cause.

Once again how many took action and wrote a letter or email to back the Co's???? That is why there was no vote and they are screwed. NO VOICE NO REPRESENTATION!!! Don't blame the unions and CEO's blame yourself!!

[camcojb]

I still don't understand how Wall Street can get so much help, but when the Big 3 want a loan for a fraction of the amount, it's the most evil thing in the world. Look what AIG did after they got their billions handed to them - the executives went to some million dollar spa retreat deal...

I think what a lot of people are afraid of is the loan will be burnt through in a few months and they will be right back where they were, except with billions of our money gone.

If I try to get a business loan I have to prove my credit worthiness and ability to pay it back. So I think GM needs to show what changes they're going to make that satisfies the lender that they have a good chance of being re-paid. I don't think they've said a single thing they're going to do differently, and if true I see that as the problem.

I hope this all works out. I have many friends that work there, most on this board. Plus I'm a big GM guy anyway, and I realize that this reaches much further than just direct GM employees losing their jobs. But I think GM should be working on a plan to right the ship financially. If they come up with a viable plan I think the loan is there. Actually I think the loan will happen even if they don't change anything just due to the financial impact it'd have, but if the goal is to survive and compete with the other companies they need a new business model. You cannot keep doing the exact same thing and expect the results to change.

Jody

[Stuart Adams]

I think what a lot of people are afraid of is the loan will be burnt through in a few months and they will be right back where they were, except with billions of our money gone.

If I try to get a business loan I have to prove my credit worthiness and ability to pay it back. So I think GM needs to show what changes they're going to make that satisfies the lender that they have a good chance of being re-paid. I don't think they've said a single thing they're going to do differently, and if true I see that as the problem.

I hope this all works out. I have many friends that work there, most on this board. Plus I'm a big GM guy anyway, plus I realize that this reaches much further than just direct GM employees losing their jobs. But I think GM should be working on a plan to right the ship financially. If they come up with a viable plan I think the loan is there. Actually I think the loan will happen even if they don't change anything just due to the financial impact it'd have, but if the goal is to survive and compete with the other companies they need a new business model. You cannot keep doing the exact same thing and expect the results to change.

Jody

What he said. They should build and sell the cars that do well and make those even better. Get rid of the dead cars and dead weight. Kinda like In- N- Out. Just burgers and fries.

[conekiller13]

I guess if England can survive the loss of it's auto industry so can We right? I guess this will be a great opportunity for Tata from India and Changan Automobile Group and Cherry from China to get their vehicles here. I can see them swooping in to buy up the plants and designs and then suddenly they have U.S. compliant vehicles.

I don't understand why we are unable to have a deal like the French did with Renault. If someone is going to buy out the U.S. companies why not have it be the U.S.? Nationalize the companies and restructure management, make the company work for the company and not the shareholder. Once it turns around start selling it back to itself. Use Renault as a model.


Taken from the NY Times:
"For Garel Rhys, head of the Center for Automotive Industry Research at Cardiff University in Wales, the trajectory of General Motors is reminiscent of British Leyland not only because of the former’s decision to seek aid to avert bankruptcy, but also for its slow, seemingly inexorable loss of market share. “Both had a history of being the biggest in their market but couldn’t adapt as they lost sales,” he said. “They couldn’t get customers back.”

If Washington does go ahead and help Detroit, Mr. Edwardes said, it is crucial that the government overhaul the management of the Big Three. “Throwing money at them isn’t enough,” he said. “They need money and they need new management. They need both, not one or the other.”

It is a sad day for America and the American worker...........would You like fries with that?


I can not think of another American industry that has so many rules involved in designing and building it's product. How much of a new cars design and component cost is eaten up by D.O.T. and EPA requirements before the car design actually hits paper. Add the burden of out of date UAW contracts and then making the shareholders the primary concern instead of the customer or the company and it is definitely a recipe for disaster.

Anyone remember that movie with Micheal Keaton "Gung-Ho"? Remember how the Union workers didn't want to work to the Japanese standard? Is that whats to blame for the still perceived build quality problems or is it cutting costs on materials to show a better bottom line to shareholders? I think "free" enterprise running amuck in this country shares a large part of the responsibility for our current situation.

[Damn True]

How many US airlines have gone through bankruptcy and yet are still in existence?

The reason I bring this up is this. It is my opinion that the UAW is calling the shots here. They are the reason why the big-2.5 Execs are so opposed to bankruptcy and restructuring because if that happens the contracts will also be restructured which spells disaster for the UAW.

[conekiller13]

How many US airlines have gone through bankruptcy and yet are still in existence?

The reason I bring this up is this. It is my opinion that the UAW is calling the shots here. They are the reason why the big-2.5 Execs are so opposed to bankruptcy and restructuring because if that happens the contracts will also be restructured which spells disaster for the UAW.

But disaster for the UAW will ultimately help the industry build itself back up. The union is the biggest obstacle in competing with the import companies. I would think the "Execs" would be for that scenario. I haven't heard any representative from the UAW chime in on the subject yet...........

[tones2SS]

I bought a 2009 Corvette Z06 only 3 weeks ago, and ordered a 2010 Camaro SS last week. Just doing my part :lol:

WOW!!!
Good deal Tony.:thumbsup: :cheers:
Post up some pics when you them.

[tones2SS]

My opinion, If the automakers do go down, there will be no debate as to whether or not we will go into a full-on economic depression as opposed to a "bad recession" or just having a "lousy economy".



Not only that, but the knowledge loss to the country will be tremendous if that industry is gone, and that is a very hard thing to put a price tag on.

People in this country are, by and large, completely ignorant of the massive consequences that are at stake here. They are completely numb from hearing about all the wall street issues these last few months, and feel this is just “more of the same” stuff.



On top of that, the media has spent decades conditioning people to believe that the American auto industry just doesn't produce anything that is any good at all, when we all know that some of what they produce is best-in-class, and best in the world in many cases.


Rich you are right, the employee situation is a complete mess. My hope is that any money they get, will come with some real enforceable stipulations on how they must use it (hopefully to reduce their pension and healthcare obligations for retirees and get that monkey off their backs…complete restructuring, union re-negotiations, etc, etc). Part of the problem, for GM in particular, is bad mortgage debt via GMAC financing (Ditech) So they should be directed to get out of that business...

I never would have had a manufacturing plant to go to work in back in NY as a college kid and get my career started, if it wasn’t for these three guys who were our main customers. I also spent many years in the defense industry and saw the auto makers technology contributions there firsthand. It is not an exaggeration to say that it is a real national security issue if they were to disappear.


Anyway...enough ranting...Even though they have HUGE management problems, I still called my congressman in support of help in the form of LOANS for the US auto industry.

GOOD CALL!!!
Very well said.:thumbsup:

[Tony_SS]

I still don't understand how Wall Street can get so much help, but when the Big 3 want a loan for a fraction of the amount, it's the most evil thing in the world. Look what AIG did after they got their billions handed to them - the executives went to some million dollar spa retreat deal...

That's because helping the Big 3 doesn't directly benefit Henry Paulson, Goldman Sachs, the Bush admin or the private Federal Reserve. So they won't have any part of it. But it's ok for them to bailout these inflated banks that made their bad decisions even though the only thing they produce is imaginary credit. It's total hypocrisy, save Wall St. and the corrupt money masters and screw the working middle class.

Something else to consider... If the Big 3 does go bankrupt, who would want to buy their cars not knowing the future of parts, service and warranty? Eventually they'll go under and be bought out by some foreign multi-national corporation.

Also a huge part of a healthy economy is confidence... Denying the auto industry any assistance would be a huge blow to that.

[conekiller13]

That's because helping the Big 3 doesn't directly benefit Henry Paulson, Goldman Sachs, the Bush admin or the private Federal Reserve. So they won't have any part of it. But it's ok for them to bailout these inflated banks that made their bad decisions even though the only thing they produce is imaginary credit. It's total hypocrisy, save Wall St. and the corrupt money masters and screw the working middle class.

Something else to consider... If the Big 3 does go bankrupt, who would want to buy their cars not knowing the future of parts, service and warranty? Eventually they'll go under and be bought out by some foreign multi-national corporation.

Also a huge part of a healthy economy is confidence... Denying the auto industry any assistance would be a huge blow to that.


Is this the Bush administrations last ditch effort to stomp out the blue collar worker?

[trapin]

Tony,

I understand your frustration totally. It's not your fault a handful of people ran this American icon into the ground.

My opinion is from first hand experience. I've signed on to 3 of these union contracts myself and I've written checks to those benefit programs totaling over $1M this year alone.
Please don't misconstrued my statements for being anything other than an outside opinion. It's hard to understand when you stand on the other side of the wall.
It bothers me that you have to go through this Tony. The guys at Lateral-G have been great to me and I consider everyone here like a big family, it hurts to see you in this situation.


Respectfully,

Rich Allen
Rich, I understand. We're cool. You should probably know that I am no fan of the UAW even though I belong to it. I had no choice, I had to join if I wanted in to the department I'm working in now. They take $80 out of my check each month for virtually nothing.

[surreyboy]

does anyone know what the "loan" will do? im not sure how giving gm money will sell cars? if its to keep them operating it wont take long for all 3 to burn through the 25billion, it might be a loan, but once its chapter 11 its nothing and most people hope the money didnt go to the ceos .

[Flash68]

I still don't understand how Wall Street can get so much help, but when the Big 3 want a loan for a fraction of the amount, it's the most evil thing in the world. Look what AIG did after they got their billions handed to them - the executives went to some million dollar spa retreat deal...

Yes that was absolute BS. Unacceptable behavior I agree.

But unfortunately AIG could not be allowed to fail. The Big 3 argument is more debatable on that topic.

I think it's just a harder sell to Washington that carmakers need to be rescued, as opposed to some of the banks and financials that could have brought the domestic and global financial system to its knees if failed.

[Flash68]

I think what a lot of people are afraid of is the loan will be burnt through in a few months and they will be right back where they were, except with billions of our money gone.

If I try to get a business loan I have to prove my credit worthiness and ability to pay it back. So I think GM needs to show what changes they're going to make that satisfies the lender that they have a good chance of being re-paid. I don't think they've said a single thing they're going to do differently, and if true I see that as the problem.

I hope this all works out. I have many friends that work there, most on this board. Plus I'm a big GM guy anyway, and I realize that this reaches much further than just direct GM employees losing their jobs. But I think GM should be working on a plan to right the ship financially. If they come up with a viable plan I think the loan is there. Actually I think the loan will happen even if they don't change anything just due to the financial impact it'd have, but if the goal is to survive and compete with the other companies they need a new business model. You cannot keep doing the exact same thing and expect the results to change.

Jody

Herein lies the difference. The money given to banks/financials was not just to save them, but to stimulate further lending in our economy and to help keep this flailing economy moving. Some of them are accused of not using the money to actually lend, which is a big problem. But the automakers have no plans for getting back to profitability, and they didn't help their collective and individual causes with that poor showing in front of Congress the other day. They refuse to consider bankruptcy in any form? Why not?

[James OLC]

Underlying reasons for the crisis aside, I am really taken aback by the irony of a panel of rich, financially out of touch, fiscally irresponsible politicians looking down their noses and brow beating a panel of rich, financially out of touch, fiscally irresponsible capitalists...

At least the politicians learned something from the last round of loans that they doaled out... ask how the money is going to be used before signing the check (or in this case, printing the money).

[conekiller13]

Associated Press:


updated 1 hour, 10 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - Democratic leaders in Congress sidetracked legislation to bail out the auto industry Thursday and demanded the Big Three develop a plan assuring the money would make them economically viable.

“Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money,” Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said at a hastily called news conference in the Capitol.

She and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said Congress would return to work in early December to vote on legislation if the General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC produce an acceptable plan.

The decision averted a likely defeat of legislation providing $25 billion loans for the industry. Reid and Pelosi both said there was no plan in circulation that could pass both houses of Congress and win President George W. Bush’s approval.

While the decision headed off the defeat of one bill, it did not necessarily translate into passage of a different one.

As a result, the fate of hundreds of thousands of auto workers and even of an iconic American industry hangs in the balance.

The chief executives of the Big Three automakers appealed personally to lawmakers for the loans this week, and warned that their industry might collapse without them. In testimony, they said their problem was that credit was unavailable, and not that they were manufacturing products that consumers had turned their backs on.

But whatever support they found sagged when it became known that each of them had flown into Washington aboard multi-million dollar corporate jets. Reid observed that was “difficult to explain” to taxpayers in his home town of Searchlight, Nev.

Pelosi: Auto industry needs a plan
Nov. 20: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says that the auto industry is an important part of the economy, but it needs a plan to help return to viability and accountability.

The automakers are on a tight timeline. Reid and Pelosi said their plan must be turned over to key lawmakers by Dec. 2 They said hearings were possible the first week of December, and Congress may return to session the following week to consider legislation.

Pelosi stressed that whatever the Big Three provided to Congress, it must show they had a plan for “viability and accountability,” meaning that the were transforming theoir industry in a way that it would become competitive, and that they were clear about how the federal loan money was used.

Even if lawmakers return to vote, they are likely to insist on numerous conditions on any loans. One possibility is to seek a partial ownership of the companies. Another is to limit salaries of top executives. A third is to prohibit use of the funds for any lobbying.

[Flash68]

“Until they show us the plan, we cannot show them the money,” Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.

What she said!

[conekiller13]

By Tom Curry
National affairs writer
msnbc.com


WASHINGTON - One thing professional politicians are expert at judging is public relations.

The bipartisan consensus here at the Capitol Thursday was that the Big Three auto executives had failed spectacularly in their testimony this week to House and Senate committees. And by flying to Washington on private, corporate jets they created a monumental public relations fiasco.

In the wake of this disaster, it would have been political poison for the Democratic-controlled Congress to hand them a $25 billion subsidy to stay afloat.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid knew he did not have the 60 votes needed to overcome a likely filibuster against the bailout.

He also knew that any "bailout" is likely to be unpopular right now. The $700 billion bailout, or rescue plan, for financial firms has become even more unpopular than it was when Congress passed it last month.

There are some members of Congress, such as Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss. who won their elections Nov. 4 partly because they voted against the Wall Street bailout. Sen. Saxby Chambliss, R Ga., was forced into a runoff election partly because his vote for the bailout gave his Democratic opponent, Jim Martin, a stick with which to beat him.

Risk of rejection
Reid did not want to put the proposed $25 billion loan to a vote and have his colleagues reject it because that would have further spooked the stock markets. As it was, the stock market tumbled Thursday after congressional leaders announced the bailout vote had been delayed.

“We don’t need to go through a bunch of votes here that fail,” Reid told reporters. “The stock markets, the credit markets are having a lot of difficulties. What kind of message do we send to the American people by having a bunch of failed votes here? We do not have the votes.”

Alluding to the PR fiasco, Reid summed up the obvious: “What happened here in Washington this week has not been good for the auto industry.”

Executives flying to the Capitol on corporate jets to seek a loan “doesn’t send a good message,” he said.

What the Big Three leaders utterly failed to do this week, said Senate Banking Committee chairman Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., was to give “any willing admission of their own culpability in the situation they’re in.”

But while Democratic leaders wanted to be tough on the CEOs, that inevitably entailed hurting workers as well.

The Democrats didn’t want to appear as if they were shrugging their shoulders in indifference about the jobs at stake in Michigan and other states. “We are here to help," said Reid. "We are not against the auto industry. We want to help those people keep those jobs.”

So Reid reverted to the practical rule in politics: “When in doubt, delay.”

How to define 'viability'
Reid and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi insisted in a joint press conference that executives of Ford, General Motors and Chrysler must present a business plan after Thanksgiving.

On Dec. 2, Democratic leaders will begin hearings to judge those plans. The buzzword that Reid and Pelosi kept using as they faced a horde of reporters Thursday was “viability.”

Reid said it would be up to Dodd and House Financial Services Committee chairman Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., to judge what “viability” was and whether the automakers had it.

When a reporter asked Dodd if he and Frank had a common understanding of how “viability” could be determined, Dodd joked, patting his heart, “It’s all right here.”

Dodd said the plans that will be submitted by the Big Three would be analogous to a firm approaching a venture capitalist and presenting a business plan. The taxpayers are the venture capitalists, Dodd said. “They are coming to us to submit a plan on what they’re going to do if we decide to invest,” he told reporters.

But how to define “viability”?

Dodd replied, “Well, I don’t know; that’s a great question. Obviously those are the important issues and we’ll have to sort that out ourselves.”

Asked whether GM for example, would have to tell Congress what product lines it would phase out and what new models it would unveil over the next few years, Dodd replied, “Certainly we want to hear about retooling and reorganization. There will be some detail to this. We are going to want to get as much of a sense (as possible) of where this industry is heading.”

But the decision by Democratic leaders to insist on the auto industry executives proving viability raises this question: if most members of Congress found the Detroit executives so unskillful in their presentations this week, are these really the men whom Congress trusts to chart the future of their firms?

If they cannot manage PR, can they manage retooling, market strategy and all the other challenges of competing with Honda, Toyota and Hyundai?

Those questions will be waiting when Dodd and Frank return to the Capitol after Thanksgiving.

© 2008 msnbc.com

[TonyL]

If they cannot manage PR, can they manage retooling, market strategy and all the other challenges of competing with Honda, Toyota and Hyundai?

Those questions will be waiting when Dodd and Frank return to the Capitol after Thanksgiving.

© 2008 msnbc.com

Everyone needs to be worried about competing with Hyundai.
http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/hyundai-genesis-1.jpg Best everything in its class and 35,000 bucks. Hard to compete with that. Bigger, faster, stops faster, and gets better mileage than BMW Mercedes and Lexus.

Everyone needs to keep an eye on Hyundai. My wife wants a new Genisis so bad, she's threatening to sell my car to get one.

[Vegas69]

I don't think so....Hyundai is like GM bad stigma. I don't think the torch gets passed quite so easily.

[Lcamino]

Couple of thoughts on this.
1. Didn't we bail Chrysler out in the 80's? When they got back on their feet they tried to screw the govt out of the rest of the deal they made with them. And now they are asking for another handout?

2. Don't the big 3 employees that are unionized have the ability to decertify the union? They act like it's not their fault that the union exists. The union only exists because you allow it to. The results are consistent with the hypothesis that successful union decertifications increase firm valuation and unsuccessful ones reduce firm valuation.

3. There is an economic theory called Comparative Advantage. It refers to the ability of a person or a country to produce a particular good at a lower opportunity cost than another country. It goes on to imply that if we are only producing cars that are of equal quality with foreign car makers but our cost is higher then we should stop making cars and let the foreign car companies make the cars. They are obviously more efficient at it. I would hate to see these companies disappear but it is just not good business.

[slownova]

only way for them to lose the union is to file bankrupty. i think they should take the bailout money, pay off thier suppliers, file bankrupty, lose the union, then work on a game plan.

[kwhizz]

First off...........The cars that GM is producing right now are some of the best cars in the world.....dollar for dollar....
The main problem (In my opinion) is the Union and the Union Legacy that has been built into the Automotive system....who's to blame is not the Issue.....It's there....and they can't do anything about it.....
Today's business climate changes on a Daily basis and we have to "Adjust" to the market (and Customers) on a Daily basis to be "First" successful and "Secondly" Profitable ....also......the access to this Flexability to do business in the New world market has been removed from the Manufacturers......."Right, Wrong, or Indifferent"..........
Everyone wants everything to stay as it was because that's what we are accustomed to and have comfort with..........Ain't gonna happen......."Things Need to be Adjusted" and......It's not gonna be "Fair"..........But for the Good of all.........It's got to happen........
Now.........the bigger problem......................Who is going to regulate what changes are to be made......the CEO's.......the Barney Frank and Chris Dodd Show...........or the rest of the "All Knowing" Elected Officials in Washington.........

Who do we put our Faith in????

Bring back Ross Peroit.............

Just my $.02

Ken

[conekiller13]

Everyone needs to be worried about competing with Hyundai.
http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/hyundai-genesis-1.jpg Best everything in its class and 35,000 bucks. Hard to compete with that. Bigger, faster, stops faster, and gets better mileage than BMW Mercedes and Lexus.

Everyone needs to keep an eye on Hyundai. My wife wants a new Genesis so bad, she's threatening to sell my car to get one.


Korea is to Japan as Japan is/was to the U.S. as India will soon be to Korea.

The big difference is the Asian companies seem to take a lot more pride in the success of thier companies not thier stock. Not sure what India's business practices will be yet.

[Sparky1]

My two cents:
1) break the unions contracts
2) build cars people want
3) shake up the fatcats at the top of the big 3
4) let the auto designers design cars not the government
5) give incentives to big 3 to modernize/retool plants
6) throw all the arrogant politicians out
7) cut corporate income taxes for all buisness ( they are among the highest in the world, and it could be a way for detroit to meet some of there pension obligations)
8) why are the big 3 doing better over the big pond?

these are in no particular order. I have owned about 20 vehicles over the last 10 years. and as a owner of 3 first gen. camaros I truly love GM, but with that being said the quality issues are still there. I currently own a 07 Avalanche that is probably 1 of the best vehicles I have owned. but compared to the the 08 Nissan SUV my wife just got there is a clear difference. I think dodge and ford have larger quality issues. Also detroit and the uaw could both use an attitude adjustment. And for those who believe the unions days are long gone wait until "card check" comes around. I would rather close the doors on my buisness than have union dictate my labor terms.

[BRIAN]

Guys it is the cars plain and simple. They have gotten better but in the end they need to reorganize or wipe out their design studio. They are almost there but again insist on adding those tacky GM style add ons. It is like they just can't build a car without them. The GTO was the 1st sign of a good change but then again the people who buy GM cars didn't like it.

They are building a product for a dying off crowd and do not have the attention of new buyers and it is now coming up and bitting them in the ass. Is it the unions fault? Maybe money wise but then again look what Hyundai has done with budget cars.

Again the mechanics are spot on and the best out there but the packaging is just out of touch.


Just to prove a point on how writting some emails or getting a petition started can help, there is some guy from out West who drives a Japanese car who is against the bailout who did take action. He wrote something and got attention. He is on his way to being the next Joe the plumber.

Get off yours asses and get some emails or letters out to your local Gov't leaders. I know it is easier to post 10 pages worth of stuff on the internet. Not sure where everybody will be getting their parts from???? For a web site who banned together to help someone with a bad paint job it seams a little silly not to help keep the Industry you enjoy alive??? Just my 2 cents.

[sniper]

Get off yours asses and get some emails or letters out to your local Gov't leaders. I know it is easier to post 10 pages worth of stuff on the internet. Not sure where everybody will be getting their parts from???? For a web site who banned together to help someone with a bad paint job it seams a little silly not to help keep the Industry you enjoy alive??? Just my 2 cents.


You do understand that not everyone is for the bailout, don't you?

Also, why is everyone making it out that if they do not get a bailout, then they will go out of business? Can they not reorganize and build cars on a much smaller scale?

This whole thing is no different than Bush shouting that a bank baiout is a must or we will all die. Since then, they have spent only 300 billion or so to Paulson's buddies, and yet people are still kickin.

[rich-allen]

Korea is to Japan as Japan is/was to the U.S. as India will soon be to Korea.

The big difference is the Asian companies seem to take a lot more pride in the success of thier companies not thier stock. Not sure what India's business practices will be yet.


For another $5k you can have the new twin turbo 335i
from BMW. I bought my daughter one for college graduation and it drives like it's on rails.

http://resource.bmwusa.com/[email protected]

http://resource.bmwusa.com/[email protected]

Car and Driver voted it the best engine and handling of any car in it's class for 2008.

Don't get me wrong, this is the only non American car I've ever bought and the reason I bought it wasn't because GM makes crappy cars however, GM doesn't make car comparable to this and if they did it would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $50k

I got hers out the door (inc tax lic, fully loaded) for $42k. 20 mpg city and 28 Hwy

Why can't GM make cars with comparable quality with a comparable price? The equivelent car is a Cadallic and it runs around $52k

[trapin]

I think it's already been explained why our cars cost so much more.

The BMW is nicer because that's the only brand they sell and they can concentrate ALL their resources on just a few cars. Also, they're a much smaller company, have no unions, and have a tax advantage from our government, that's how they do it. It's not rocket science.

I'm sorry to see that we didn't have a car you felt was good enough for your daughter. Maybe next time.

If there is one.

[Flash68]

I think it's already been explained why our cars cost so much more.

The BMW is nicer because that's the only brand they sell and they can concentrate ALL their resources on just a few cars. Also, they're a much smaller company, have no unions, and have a tax advantage from our government, that's how they do it. It's not rocket science.

I'm sorry to see that we didn't have a car you felt was good enough for your daughter. Maybe next time.

If there is one.

Rich nailed it. The BMW is such a better car (that new 335i is sweet). I don't care how it gets done, but the Germans just make better cars, and sometimes cheaper like he said!

I really doubt I will ever buy a newer GM car again. It is what it is. But I will continue to support them by buying parts for my Camaro, Chevelle, or whatever GM musclecar I get into next. That's better than nothing!

[drewmangoo]

I think GM could save it's self by bring some of the overseas models to the states. I'm over in the Middle East, for a couple of months and some of the Chevy's here would sell big time in the states. I love Chevy, but let's be honest their line-up is pretty borning if you can't afford a Vett or the new Camaro. Take a look at the Chevy's they sell in the United Arab Emirates. Sorry for the long post,just a long time bow-tie man giving his 2 cents.

[trapin]

double post.

[trapin]

I really doubt I will ever buy a newer GM car again. It is what it is.
Well of course you won't. You're going to stick with the popular perception because THATS the popular thing to do.

Why worry if the Big Three go under?

If won't effect you. Right?

[trapin]

A great read by a great writer....

http://www.freep.com/article/20081123/COL01/811230371/?imw=Y

[sniper]

The BMW is nicer because that's the only brand they sell and they can concentrate ALL their resources on just a few cars. Also, they're a much smaller company, have no unions, and have a tax advantage from our government, that's how they do it.
DING DING DING! Tell em what he's won johnny. It's not rocket science.
It must be!

GM needs to focus on a brand or two at most. Sell off all the dead weight Build what they are best at building and proceed forward.

You certainly don't have to answer this, but would you take a 30% paycut, if it meant GM would survive on it's own? And do you think that would ever be a viable option for all employees?

I am willing to bet that no one would because of all the **** in place for union employees to get paid, for sitting in a room "unemployed" for eight hours, is more than they would get paid for working under a paycut.

The problem with the Big three is that NOONE is in it for the companies. They are all in it for themselves, from the CEO to the floor sweeper. No one is wanting to rebuild and lasting business model that will go on for decades.

I suppose this wouldn't have anything to do with our disdain of GM
Title of article:
"GM to spend $1billion of the bailout money… in Brazil"

General Motors plans to invest $1 billion in Brazil to avoid the kind of problems the U.S. automaker is facing in its home market, said the beleaguered car maker.

[tones2SS]

I think it's too bad.
The US car makers should never have been in this much trouble, or the econmy for that matter, to begin with.
It's kinda heart-breaking. I just hope it works out for the US big 3!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[James OLC]

I think it's already been explained why our cars cost so much more.

The BMW is nicer because that's the only brand they sell and they can concentrate ALL their resources on just a few cars. Also, they're a much smaller company, have no unions, and have a tax advantage from our government, that's how they do it. It's not rocket science.

I'm sorry to see that we didn't have a car you felt was good enough for your daughter. Maybe next time.

If there is one.

In all fairness, GM has received (in the past) some pretty similar and substantial tax incentives to locate plants in specific cities (ie. Flint), states (ie. Ohio), and countries (ie. Canada) so that does not make BMW much different from GM in that regard. The number of brands they build and how they focus their development capital and their size all represent their business model which, if successful, is difficult to criticize. No unions... that would appear to be the largest "operational" (?) or "physical" (?) benefit with respect to unit cost.

My worry is that if the big 3 are ultimately bailed out, and if the terms of the bail out is a government approved "plan" we could see the "dumbing down" of the North American auto industry to satisfy the perceptions of a group of individuals who probably haven't sat in the front seat of a car in a long time.

Just my 2 cents.

[trapin]

James....there's a lot more that I wish I could say on these forums, but Big Brother has told us he'll be watching and I don't want that to be why I lost my job.

[James OLC]

James....there's a lot more that I wish I could say on these forums, but Big Brother has told us he'll be watching and I don't want that to be why I lost my job.

I understand Tony and I know that you are in no win situation here on public forums like this. Public perceptions of specific industries never ceases to amaze me and I have learned to tune out the rhetoric from people who are the outside.

Regardless of what happens over the next few weeks, I am certain that changes are coming to the big 3 and I hope that you and others in the community weather the storm ok.

[XcYZ]

I'm worried that GM won't be a US company much longer, bankruptcy or not. Get ready for Shanghai GM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_GM), a joint venture between SAIC and GM. The groundwork is already there, and with SAIC being the 2nd largest auto maker in China, and with where the value of GM stock is today, they could easily come up with the cash to take it over.

With the apparent love that Americans have for Asian cars that are assembled here, combined with hatred for all things domestic, it could be a big hit. </sarcasm>

[trapin]

That's not a bad idea Scott. At least one media pundit is touting this.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20081120/ANA02/811209967/1125

Yeah really....maybe they'll finally love us once they have the knowledge that their money is leaving U.S shores and headed for China. For some reason this makes them feel better about their purchase.

I guess if you can't beat em...might as well join em. Eh? :thumbsup:

[surreyboy]

our homes have 90% asian made goods in them anyways, and we all love buying cheap goods.

[conekiller13]

The big three might as well be owned by China. Most of the industry is already produced in China. In the general repair business 90% of all the replacement parts I have access to are from China. Anyone who went to SEMA go over to the APEX show? Better be able to speak Chinese to talk to those vendors. Almost all the "American" parts producers are simply re boxing items made in the R.O.C. I believe even most of the bigger companies selling go fast parts are sourced from China. Isn't Pro-Form stuff all made there? Take a walk through Wall-Mart or Target and look for a "Made in the U.S.A." tag. You will probably be able to count the products on one hand. Every year we produce less and less in this country leaving only investment and executive jobs and then service industry. That wonderful widening gap between the haves and have nots. Kinda like the Feudal system.

[Ummgawa]

1. I believe that this is a perfect opportunity for the US Government to squeeze the Unions out of the Big Three. "We'll consider the loans only if you play ball with us." Usually this means Greasy assed politicians want the most bang for the buck out of the deal AND ONLY if it benefits them any way the mop flops. Bankruptcy if the Unions are made a smaller player? So be it.

2. The Golden Rule. He who has the Gold gets to make the rules. Guess who has the Gold here.

3. I have to say, in my opinion, the Big Three need to be saved. The tremendous amout of companies that are 'Lean To" companies on the big three are just about uncountable. If 90% of the parts are made overseas, the remaining ten percent is critical here. Dealerships closing. Parts stores, Body Shops, fix it car repair shops all going under.

4. Jeff Trush said one time : This is how the Media reports the Big Three (He was specifically speaking of GM at the time.)

Assume that a house is on fire. There are five people in the house.Toyota runs to the door and grabs the closest person near the door.

GM runs all through the house and rescues three people, at great peril to themselves.

The headlines the next day reads:

Toyota saves One, GM allows one to die.

A brilliant analogy of how the US automakers have been spit on by the Media.


5. There has to be someone somewhere that lost his/her job over the question asked by the Senator about who flew there Commercial. These guys are 'schooled" about the vast array of potential questions that could be asked. Someone missed that one in a big way. I will confess to a "Tip of the Hat" to the dude that asked that one. Tou'chet.(Pronounced Two shay)

6. Last, but certainly not least, it never looks good to step out of your Lear Jet with a Tin Cup in your hand.

[Stuart Adams]

Make the cars that sell, cut the excess fat, better efficiency, and become even stronger than before. All of us would be required to do that. Can't ask for money with no plan of attack, that is ridiculous. I think GM is buiding the best cars they ever have right now.

I am the biggest GM homer there is and have a personal friend here that works for them, so I hope it works out.

[James OLC]

The problem that I see right off the bat is that they (the big 3) have to show a plan to a group of people who have even less of an idea what a good plan is than the people who made the plan in the first place. that is one circular arguement right there...

I guess the thing that bothers me is... what qualifies the senate committee to determine if "the plan" has merit? For the most part, it seems to me that their exposure to the auto industry comes from comparing the relative merits of a Lincoln vs. a Cadillac when picking out a limo for the year...

[Ummgawa]

Make the cars that sell, cut the excess fat, better efficiency, and become even stronger than before. All of us would be required to do that. Can't ask for money with no plan of attack, that is ridiculous. I think GM is buiding the best cars they ever have right now.

I am the biggest GM homer there is and have a personal friend here that works for them, so I hope it works out.


Same Here. Most of my dad's Brothers worked for GM. I am a GM man all the way. I am pulling for them and the other "Biggies" Ford and Chrysler.

[Flash68]

Well of course you won't. You're going to stick with the popular perception because THATS the popular thing to do.

Why worry if the Big Three go under?

If won't effect you. Right?

Dude. Please don't try to tell me I follow others and don't think on my own. You don't know me. I do my research and make my own decisions, thank you.

I never said I am not worried in general and that I don't care what happens to people.

I have always loved GM (owned Nova, Chevelle, 2 Camaros, Corvette) but I just know we have bigger problems for our country right now than the automakers.

[trapin]

Dude. Please don't try to tell me I follow others and don't think on my own. You don't know me. I do my research and make my own decisions, thank you.

I never said I am not worried in general and that I don't care what happens to people.

I have always loved GM (owned Nova, Chevelle, 2 Camaros, Corvette) but I just know we have bigger problems for our country right now than the automakers.
Fair enough. I am sorry I put words in your mouth. But you have to understand that when I read comments like, "I don't care how the German's get it done" and "I will probably never own a GM vehicle ever again" it just makes me shake my head and I wonder what we could have done so wrong to elicit such apathy.

[Flash68]

Fair enough. I am sorry I put words in your mouth. But you have to understand that when I read comments like, "I don't care how the German's get it done" and "I will probably never own a GM vehicle ever again" it just makes me shake my head and I wonder what we could have done so wrong to elicit such apathy.

Thanks. I am sure this is not easy to watch as a GM employee.

But seriously, you are always going to win some new customers with your new product line and lose some old customers. It's just the way it goes.

And for me, it's not what GM did wrong. It's the fact that I moved up the income scale in recent years and have been able to try out some German cars as daily drivers, and I happen to like them. They make much better daily drivers IMO compared to the GM cars I would be interested (Z06?).

I also just like variety and change my mind too often on cars. :yes:

[Fluid Power]

After spending a lot of time reading and digesting the posts and the information available concerning the auto industry, I have taken the time to compose a post. My thoughts on the industry are based completely on the fact that I own an industrial distribution/engineering firm. In other words, I make my living as well as the 5 people I employee working with manufacturers.

It is no secret that I have complete disdain for the Japanese automobile industry for several reasons. First and foremost, they absolutely will not buy any products that are not manufactured in Japan. Forget about it. If you have the opportunity to walk thru a plant you will see what I mean, Sony computers, Panasonic flat screens in the conference room, and Hitachi tools on the floor. Etc. They use us for labor plain and simple. Honda has been in the news a lot here lately, talking about what a great company they are and they are not laying anyone off during this downturn. The real story is that 30% of the workforce at the Honda plant in Marysville, Ohio is brought in through temp services! So of course they have not let anyone go, but they sure as hell have kicked the temps to the curb! (and with temps, no health care or retirement) Honda fails to mention that they quietly closed the Goldwing plant here, because it could no longer compete with HD.

The legacy costs are crippling the big 3.

There is a lot of discussion about “build cars that we want” what do you want? You guys realize that GM up until last year sold more CARS than ANYONE. If you guys want them to build cars YOU would buy, what should they build because the rest of the country IS buying their cars. If you factor in truck sales, GM kicks Toyota’s ass by about 1.1 million units last year. (http://www.motorintelligence.com/m_frameset.html)

Now Ford and Chrysler, yeah you guys got spanked. Compare that to BMW, with 215,836 units. And the question was asked why can’t GM build a car like the 3 series for that kind of money? There is your answer, because they are boutique manufacturer.

About BMW and Benz, Lexus falls into this category as well. Anybody that has owned one of these vehicles knows about service. Can you imagine the media smear job if a new Cadillac required service calls that would total $1500-$2000 each time it went in? A buddy of mine has the new big Lexus and was complaining about his $180 oil change! My points is, the German cars, while nice and have quality details and safety features, they are expensive to maintain. I am guilty of having owned a Porsche 911. It had electrical gremlins and the service manager said to me as I was complaining of the cost of service, and the number if times I had it worked on ‘you have to pay to play!’

I have a friend that works at a shop that specializes in Italian stuff, Ferrari’s Lambos’ etc. He tells me stories all the time about Murcielago/Diablo’s having the clutches replaced with 7,000 miles! Or how about F430’s requiring top end work with 20,000 miles on them! And the ZR1 comes with a 100,000 mile warranty. I am not comparing ZR1’s with Lambos and Ferraris, in terms of styling or exclusivity but wholly smoke, 200 mph and world beater horsepower for 100k. All that with a warranty!

Should they be bailed out? absolutely, manufacturing jobs have a ripple effect, for every manufacturing job, it supports 4 other jobs.

The auto industry is in a strange mess. If the big 3 could shed the union contracts and the government would work an arrangement out from a trade agreement stand point (we currently export ZERO cars to Korea (another rant for another time) and less than 10K a year to Japan) the big wigs need to be removed and replaced with new management.

Whatever the answer is, short term they need the money, give it to them.


Darren

[camaro2nv]

After spending a lot of time reading and digesting the posts and the information available concerning the auto industry, I have taken the time to compose a post. My thoughts on the industry are based completely on the fact that I own an industrial distribution/engineering firm. In other words, I make my living as well as the 5 people I employee working with manufacturers.

It is no secret that I have complete disdain for the Japanese automobile industry for several reasons. First and foremost, they absolutely will not buy any products that are not manufactured in Japan. Forget about it. If you have the opportunity to walk thru a plant you will see what I mean, Sony computers, Panasonic flat screens in the conference room, and Hitachi tools on the floor. Etc. They use us for labor plan and simple. Honda has been in the news a lot here lately, talking about what a great company they are and they are not laying anyone off during this downturn. The real story is that 30% of the workforce at the Honda plant in Marysville, Ohio is brought in through temp services! So of course they have not let anyone go, but they sure as hell have kicked the temps to the curb! (and with temps, no health care or retirement) Honda fails to mention that they quietly closed the Goldwing plant here, because it could no longer compete with HD.

The legacy costs are crippling the big 3.

There is a lot of discussion about “build cars that we want” what do you want? You guys realize that GM up until last year sold more CARS than ANYONE. If you guys want them to build cars YOU would buy, what the hell should they build because the rest of the country IS buying their cars. If you factor in truck sales, GM kicks Toyota’s ass by about 1.1 million units last year. (http://www.motorintelligence.com/m_frameset.html)

Now Ford and Chrysler, yeah you guys got spanked. Compare that to BMW, with 215,836 units. And the question was asked why can’t GM build a car like the 3 series for that kind of money? There is your answer, because they are boutique manufacturer.

About BMW and Benz, hell Lexus falls into this category as well. Anybody that has owned one of these vehicles knows about service. Can you imagine the media smear job if a new Cadillac required service calls that would total $1500-$2000 each time it went in? A buddy of mine has the new big Lexus and was complaining about his $180 oil change! My points is, the German cars, while nice and have quality details and safety features, they are expensive to maintain. I am guilty of having owned a Porsche 911. It had electrical gremlins and the service manager said to me as I was complaining of the cost of service, and the number if times I had it worked on ‘you have to pay to play!’

I have a friend that works at a shop that specializes in Italian stuff, Ferrari’s Lambos’ etc. He tells me stories all the time about Murcielago/Diablo’s having the clutches replaced with 7,000 miles! Or how about F430’s requiring top end work with 20,000 miles on them! And the ZR1 comes with a 100,000 mile warranty. I am not comparing ZR1’s with Lambos and Ferraris, in terms of styling or exclusivity but wholly smoke, 200 mph and world beater horsepower for 100k. All that with a warranty!

Should they be bailed out? absolutely, manufacturing jobs have a ripple effect, for every manufacturing job, it is supports 4 other jobs.

The auto industry is in a strange mess. If the big 3 could shed the union contracts and the government would work an arrangement out from a trade agreement stand point (we currently export ZERO cars to Korea (another rant for another time) and less than 10K a year to Japan) the big wigs need to be removed and replaced with new management.

Whatever the answer is, short term they need the money, give it to them.


Darren

So the answer is "give it to them"??? So just give them the cash and HOPE things work out?

[Fluid Power]

No the answer is throw the management out, make the unions concede and overhaul the brands.

In the mean time, give them the money.

Anybody care to analyze the bank deals to this level of scrutiny? It just seems to hit a nerve here because we are car guys. Citigroup anybody? AIG? Come on, lets discuss this to this detail. The 25 B for the car makers is a squirt of piss in the financial pool at this point.

Darren

[Tony_SS]

Anybody care to analyze the bank deals to this level of scrutiny? It just seems to hit a nerve here because we are car guys. Citigroup anybody? AIG? Come on, lets discuss this to this detail. The 25 B for the car makers is a squirt of piss in the financial pool at this point.

Darren

That's what I've been saying all along. The banker bailout is up to 7 trillion dollars. Thats right, 7 trillion, with a T. 7,000,000,000,000 of our tax dollars going to reward bad decisions and corruption on Wall St, not to mention foreign entities.

But no one give's a rats ass about that, they just want to throw GM off a cliff and pitch a bitch about the unions, management and 16mpg SUV's.

[Flash68]

Do you guys understand the ramifications of too many large banks/insurance/financials being allowed to fail? I don't think you do. It is paramount to keep the financial system intact. Things are very bad, but we are lucky they are not worse than they are!

You can't just equate the $ amount of a bank bailout to what the Big 3 are asking for. The automakers do not keep the financial system flowing and operating like AIG, Citi, etc do. If you guys do not understand finance, banking, flow of money, and how the Fed, FDIC, major banks,etc are all interrelated, then you will just not understand. It is quite complicated no doubt.

The amount is small in comparison, sure, but the Big 3 did a pathetic job in front of Congress last week in their attempt to get the money. Unprepared, no plan, and pompous I would say. They didn't deserve the money with that poor showing!

It sucks that the people behind the banks/financials are not being penalized, but unfortunately the bailouts are for the greater good, believe it or not.

It all sucks, and it looks wrong, but again, we could be in a lot worse shape than we are. And that is what is pretty scary right now.

[Ummgawa]

6. It never looks good when you step off your Lear Jet with a Tin Cup in your hand.

GM and the other two still cannot fail. Period.

[Fluid Power]

Flash and Tony I agree with you 100%. I think the issue with the banks is transparency and liability. Hold the guys responsible for the problem. The subprime mess is very small to the grand scheme of fraud those guys were cooking. If you want to solve the problem on wall street, start taking guys mansions in the hamptons and jewelery off of their wives and girlfriends necks. The mess the bankers have caused is akin to robbery...

I guess the point I am trying to make is that nobody asked what the banks 'plans' were, AIG has taken 2 corporate retreat trips since the bailout money, they all showed up in DC on corporate jets and no one said a word. I do understand how the ebb and flow of money and how important banking is, in fact, that is part of the problem. The day banking and paper pushing out stripped manufacturing as a nations main source of productivity, there is serious issues, as we are currently seeing.

It just sucks that the big 3 roll in and everyone says you guys made crappy decisions and didn't provide a product people would buy. Like Tony said, union deals, bad management, 16 MPG SUV etc. While flying in on private jets is mind boggling, it happened. (It is the same reason I make visit customers in my 2000 Chevy Silverado, with 175K on the clock. I do not need the perception that I am over charging for my services)

My opinion is this, level the playing field by wiping out the unions, work on better trade deals with the foreign companies that build cars here, and bring in better management. The issue at hand is the legacy costs are what is sucking the money at GM. That is why they cannot weather the storm. The money flows no matter what is going on. Unlike other manufacturing plants, that idle workers, shift work weeks, cut shifts, etc, their monthly nut to the retirees never changes.

Like I said before, manufacturing supports 4 jobs for every 1. Loose a factory in your town, several machine shops, and engineering firms go with it.

[BRIAN]

There should be a bail out but the money should be given to the buyers of the big three products.

Think about the discount you could be given?? If you were given $5000(or??) cash to buy a US built product that already has dealer incentives???? .What would say 15 billion in cash incentives equal for say 2 years of sales? Talk about leveling the playing field. It would be a hard deal to beat. Problem is it will never happen as they want the money for operating expenses and salaries. Just like with the banks, at this point sending out $10k checks would boost spending and kill debt but instead it will get burried into a tangled untraceable where did it go mess.

Not even worth the typing as most can see nobody can give a rats ass as they will just roll over and buy an Import. WHO CARES??? Just like who cares that we are at war???

It isn't the failing money wise it is a death blow to America as we know it. ZERO loyalty. The Co's have already sold out so why not!!

I Gotta get that English or should I say Spanish to Japanese dictionary!!

[murtah]

Fail? No. Undergo a govt managed bankruptcy? Yes. We cannot allow a huge part of our domestic manufacturing base to collapse, nor can the population and pols tolerate it being sucked up by a foreign firm.

Many members of this forum seem to think Chapter 11 means they disappear and that is simply not true. The core suppliers and dealer network will remain if it is a managed bankruptcy.

The benefits of undergoing a managed chapter 11 have already been listed in previous posts. Managed means the govt gives the companies and their associated suppliers/ dealers federal guarantees of credit (just like fannie and freddie mae/mac) while allowing federal bankruptcy judges to oversee their restructuring.
The down side and upside of restructuring has also been stated in previous posts. People face it: this problem has 2 possible outcomes.

1. The govt loans them money WITH a wall street type set of stipulations. Those stipulations will be heavily laced with POLITICAL manipulation and agendas. The one most Americans (especially gearheads) will take issue is the sub cabinet level auto czar that will oversee the federal/legislative mandated restructuring. There are many powerful interest groups who hate the internal combustion engine and will seek to influence our govt as they (politicians) go about mandating to the domestic manufacturers the type of cars they will produce. Can you say small, green and cute? Geo metro anyone?
The problem with this option is that they will have spent billions of taxpayer dollars getting lean, mean and cute n green, but Americans still won't want to buy the line up that the federal govt said they must build. Think I'm wrong? Think the pols will give a big loan to an industry that 30% of their political constituents loathe without telling them exactly what they will do with it? The extreme wing of the green movt has a lot of lawyers and lobbyists.

2. The companies go into managed chapter 11 under the purview of federal bankruptcy judges. The govt provides loans/ guarantees to the companies along with suppliers and dealers.

The companies emerge lean n mean (white and blue collar) without federal mandates on the exact type of car they have to build and the companies took a near fatal measure of pain for their hubris and poor decisions.
I would rather trust my tax dollars and the future of domestic manufacturing to a group of bi-partisan bankruptcy courts than an executive/legislative cabinet appointee any day.

The bottom line is that the govt has to round off the sharp edges of a private sector failure, not catch the whole thing less it end up taking one of those edges through the chest. There is famous quote from the savings and loan meltdown of the 1980s: “Capitalism without bankruptcy is like religion without hell”.

[Flash68]

Fail? No. Undergo a govt managed bankruptcy? Yes. We cannot allow a huge part of our domestic manufacturing base to collapse, nor can the population and pols tolerate it being sucked up by a foreign firm.

Many members of this forum seem to think Chapter 11 means they disappear and that is simply not true. The core suppliers and dealer network will remain if it is a managed bankruptcy.

The benefits of undergoing a managed chapter 11 have already been listed in previous posts. Managed means the govt gives the companies and their associated suppliers/ dealers federal guarantees of credit (just like fannie and freddie mae/mac) while allowing federal bankruptcy judges to oversee their restructuring.
The down side and upside of restructuring has also been stated in previous posts. People face it: this problem has 2 possible outcomes.

1. The govt loans them money WITH a wall street type set of stipulations. Those stipulations will be heavily laced with POLITICAL manipulation and agendas. The one most Americans (especially gearheads) will take issue is the sub cabinet level auto czar that will oversee the federal/legislative mandated restructuring. There are many powerful interest groups who hate the internal combustion engine and will seek to influence our govt as they (politicians) go about mandating to the domestic manufacturers the type of cars they will produce. Can you say small, green and cute? Geo metro anyone?
The problem with this option is that they will have spent billions of taxpayer dollars getting lean, mean and cute n green, but Americans still won't want to buy the line up that the federal govt said they must build. Think I'm wrong? Think the pols will give a big loan to an industry that 30% of their political constituents loathe without telling them exactly what they will do with it? The extreme wing of the green movt has a lot of lawyers and lobbyists.

2. The companies go into managed chapter 11 under the purview of federal bankruptcy judges. The govt provides loans/ guarantees to the companies along with suppliers and dealers.

The companies emerge lean n mean (white and blue collar) without federal mandates on the exact type of car they have to build and the companies took a near fatal measure of pain for their hubris and poor decisions.
I would rather trust my tax dollars and the future of domestic manufacturing to a group of bi-partisan bankruptcy courts than an executive/legislative cabinet appointee any day.

The bottom line is that the govt has to round off the sharp edges of a private sector failure, not catch the whole thing less it end up taking one of those edges through the chest. There is famous quote from the savings and loan meltdown of the 1980s: “Capitalism without bankruptcy is like religion without hell”.

Well said. Look at the airlines. Many of them have done fine in a similar scenario.

[Tony_SS]

You can't just equate the $ amount of a bank bailout to what the Big 3 are asking for. The automakers do not keep the financial system flowing and operating like AIG, Citi, etc do. If you guys do not understand finance, banking, flow of money, and how the Fed, FDIC, major banks,etc are all interrelated, then you will just not understand. It is quite complicated no doubt.


Please, enlighten us then, because I'd love to know just how creating 7 trillion out of thin air is good for our financial system and the value of our currency. Take a look at how the little beta test turned out in Iceland and then tell me how a private financial system, like the Federal Reserve, isn't in control of/or in cahoots with our government to loot out this entire country.

But sure, go ahead and kick GM to the curb and let them dwindle to nothing until they are forced to go under, while one of the international banks that was injected with bailout money, like Citigroup Inc, invests in China so they can buy GM up for pennies on the dollar.

[XcYZ]

This is what really burns me... How many billions have we given to Citi now? How many are they going to lay off? And they're STILL going to spend nearly a half billion on naming rights to a stupid baseball field? It's incredibly sickening.



Citigroup says Mets naming rights deal still in place

CHICAGO (Reuters) - The New York Mets and Citigroup Inc said on Friday the naming rights deal the struggling banking giant has for the baseball team's new ballpark remains in place.

The 20-year deal, announced two years ago, was reported to be a record $400 million and entailed naming the new stadium Citi Field after it opened in 2009 in the New York borough of Queens, adjacent to the team's old home, Shea Stadium.

"There is no change in regard to Citi's commitment to the new ballpark," Mets spokesman Jay Horowitz said in an email.

Citigroup spokesman Steve Silverman said: "We remain committed to our relationship with the Mets. It's an important marketing priority for us."

Citigroup shares tumbled for the fifth straight day on Friday as Chief Executive Vikram Pandit tried to downplay speculation the second largest U.S. bank by assets may sell major businesses to restore its health and investor confidence.

The company's shares have lost more than half their value this week, and investors widely wonder if the government will have to offer some form of additional assistance to what was once the largest bank in the world.

Earlier in the week, Citigroup set plans to shed 52,000 of its 352,000 jobs by early 2009 and move tens of billions of dollars in troubled securities onto its balance sheet.

A person familiar with the matter told Reuters on Thursday that Citigroup was weighing options, including a sale of parts of the company or a merger with another company.

[Flash68]

Please, enlighten us then, because I'd love to know just how creating 7 trillion out of thin air is good for our financial system and the value of our currency. Take a look at how the little beta test turned out in Iceland and then tell me how a private financial system, like the Federal Reserve, isn't in control of/or in cahoots with our government to loot out this entire country.

But sure, go ahead and kick GM to the curb and let them dwindle to nothing until they are forced to go under, while one of the international banks that was injected with bailout money, like Citigroup Inc, invests in China so they can buy GM up for pennies on the dollar.

Sorry if that sounded offensive. I didn't mean to imply I know everything and everyone here does not. But with the multiple complaints I have read about comparing the Big 3 bailout to the banks', it was obvious to me most do not get it. Hell, some of the smartest economists in our country don't get it either!

Our currency? That has been in the ****ter since well before this meltdown started, and we have established that we (our govt) are not willing or planning to defend the dollar. The dollar is another non-priority right now IMO.
Again, bigger issues at hand. This economy is so unstable right now and many do not know how close we have come to total financial collapse in recent months. It's very scary and real.

[Flash68]

This is what really burns me... How many billions have we given to Citi now? How many are they going to lay off? And they're STILL going to spend nearly a half billion on naming rights to a stupid baseball field? It's incredibly sickening.

If it was $400M all right now, yeah I would agree that is ridiculous. But spread over 20 years @ 20M per, that is a pittance compared to all other numbers at hand.

But still, I hear ya....

[XcYZ]

I just want to take a moment to say that this thread has been remarkably positive and you guys have done a great job on debating the issue without it going downhill. I think that's a product of people on one side having respect for the other side.

[Flash68]

I just want to take a moment to say that this thread has been remarkably positive and you guys have done a great job on debating the issue without it going downhill. I think that's a product of people on one side having respect for the other side.

Couldn't agree more, Scott. This is a highly contentious issue and it affects a lot of people, some right down to their paychecks.

[Tony_SS]

Sorry if that sounded offensive. I didn't mean to imply I know everything and everyone here does not. But with the multiple complaints I have read about comparing the Big 3 bailout to the banks', it was obvious to me most do not get it. Hell, some of the smartest economists in our country don't get it either!

So let me see if I get it.. a private global institution like the Federal Reserve gets to hand out funds to the private global banks like Citigroup Inc while allowing, smaller national private institutions/banks to fail thus facilitating the consolidation of wealth and power that's all funded by the American taxpayer.

But GM's the bad guy, them and their suits and private planes.

[Flash68]

So let me see if I get it.. a private global institution like the Federal Reserve gets to hand out funds to the private global banks like Citigroup Inc while allowing, smaller national private institutions/banks to fail thus facilitating the consolidation of wealth and power that's all funded by the American taxpayer.

But GM's the bad guy, them and their suits and private planes.

Okay, what are you really saying? Do not bail out the banks/AIG?

You have to save the big players (or at least most of them) so a nasty ripple does not rip through the banking system and cause a catastrophic breakdown. Smaller banks can be allowed to fail and that will not adversely affect the overall system. I didn't say I like it.


Who said GM is the bad guy? Not me...

[Fluid Power]

Fail? No. Undergo a govt managed bankruptcy? Yes. We cannot allow a huge part of our domestic manufacturing base to collapse, nor can the population and pols tolerate it being sucked up by a foreign firm.

Many members of this forum seem to think Chapter 11 means they disappear and that is simply not true. The core suppliers and dealer network will remain if it is a managed bankruptcy.

The benefits of undergoing a managed chapter 11 have already been listed in previous posts. Managed means the govt gives the companies and their associated suppliers/ dealers federal guarantees of credit (just like fannie and freddie mae/mac) while allowing federal bankruptcy judges to oversee their restructuring.
The down side and upside of restructuring has also been stated in previous posts. People face it: this problem has 2 possible outcomes.

1. The govt loans them money WITH a wall street type set of stipulations. Those stipulations will be heavily laced with POLITICAL manipulation and agendas. The one most Americans (especially gearheads) will take issue is the sub cabinet level auto czar that will oversee the federal/legislative mandated restructuring. There are many powerful interest groups who hate the internal combustion engine and will seek to influence our govt as they (politicians) go about mandating to the domestic manufacturers the type of cars they will produce. Can you say small, green and cute? Geo metro anyone?
The problem with this option is that they will have spent billions of taxpayer dollars getting lean, mean and cute n green, but Americans still won't want to buy the line up that the federal govt said they must build. Think I'm wrong? Think the pols will give a big loan to an industry that 30% of their political constituents loathe without telling them exactly what they will do with it? The extreme wing of the green movt has a lot of lawyers and lobbyists.

2. The companies go into managed chapter 11 under the purview of federal bankruptcy judges. The govt provides loans/ guarantees to the companies along with suppliers and dealers.

The companies emerge lean n mean (white and blue collar) without federal mandates on the exact type of car they have to build and the companies took a near fatal measure of pain for their hubris and poor decisions.
I would rather trust my tax dollars and the future of domestic manufacturing to a group of bi-partisan bankruptcy courts than an executive/legislative cabinet appointee any day.

The bottom line is that the govt has to round off the sharp edges of a private sector failure, not catch the whole thing less it end up taking one of those edges through the chest. There is famous quote from the savings and loan meltdown of the 1980s: “Capitalism without bankruptcy is like religion without hell”.

Exactly! Think the regulations are bad now...Can you name any industry that is so regulated by the Government BEFORE the product even comes out?

Although I believe it was Ronald Regan who said the worst thing one can hear is "Hello, We're from the Government and are here to help"

Darren

[fleetus macmullitz]

I just want to take a moment to say that this thread has been remarkably positive and you guys have done a great job on debating the issue without it going downhill. I think that's a product of people on one side having respect for the other side.

Respecting people even when they vigorously disagree with us ... priceless. :thumbsup:

Seriously.

[trapin]

Bankruptcy worked for the Airlines because they don't sell a PRODUCT. All you're buying is a ride on an airplane. There's no warranty or part longevity to worry about. History has typically shown a severe decline in sales for any product company that files for bankruptcy. It'll just motivate more people to buy foreign cars. Plus there's the issue of all the parts suppliers who would not get paid for their services under a managed bankruptcy, putting further stress on the manufacturing sector and the economy in general.

Bailout Loan with conditions is the only way to go. Bankruptcy is not the "get out of jail free" card that some think it is.

[sniper]

Do you guys understand the ramifications of too many large banks/insurance/financials being allowed to fail? I don't think you do. It is paramount to keep the financial system intact. Things are very bad, but we are lucky they are not worse than they are!

That is exactly why we are in this position in the first place. As long as there are people that think their industry is more vital than the others, we will have bailouts. Let's get this straight, there are TONS of local and smaller banks that are doing fine if not outstanding because they did not and do not shell out cash for high risk investments.
So like the automakers, if some large banking institutions go under or downsize, there will be others to step into their places, and maybe, just maybe do it right.

About 8 weeks ago, Bush came out pleading and begging to get that 700billion bailout out passed. Yet they haven't written IOU's for all of that yet and they are not even using it for what they begged for in the first place.
The sky still hasn't fallen and the stock market still tanked. What exactly has any of the bailouts accomplished? We are all suckers and when these companies sink, and come to the fed to cash in that guarentee, the dollar will all but disappear and we will be far worse off, than dealing with the pain of losing some very large businesses.

The only thing the government should be doing is relaxing manufacturing regulations to bring back those business and jobs to the US while increasing tariffs on imports especially from countries that ban importing US goods.

Bankruptcy worked for the Airlines because they don't sell a PRODUCT. All you're buying is a ride on an airplane. There's no warranty or part longevity to worry about. History has typically shown a severe decline in sales for any product company that files for bankruptcy. It'll just motivate more people to buy foreign cars. Plus there's the issue of all the parts suppliers who would not get paid for their services under a managed bankruptcy, putting further stress on the manufacturing sector and the economy in general.

Bailout Loan with conditions is the only way to go. Bankruptcy is not the "get out of jail free" card that some think it is.

What exactly will 25 billion spread to threee huge manufacturers do? They are losing how many billions every quarter?
And yet you keep going back to eveyones comoplaint about GM's longevity, so a bailout right now, WILL SOLVE NOTHING. They can't rid themselves of the unions or CEO's. So now what? Chrysler anyone?

[tones2SS]

Bankruptcy worked for the Airlines because they don't sell a PRODUCT. All you're buying is a ride on an airplane. There's no warranty or part longevity to worry about. History has typically shown a severe decline in sales for any product company that files for bankruptcy. It'll just motivate more people to buy foreign cars. Plus there's the issue of all the parts suppliers who would not get paid for their services under a managed bankruptcy, putting further stress on the manufacturing sector and the economy in general.

Bailout Loan with conditions is the only way to go. Bankruptcy is not the "get out of jail free" card that some think it is.

I agree with you there, this will definitely motivate more people to buy foreign cars. It's too bad it's come to this.:(

[rich-allen]

I just wanted to point something out here: Citibank lead the charge to loan money to illegal Mexicans. They went as far as hiring over 400 Spanish speaking mortgage finance pros.
These guys would go around and help illegals get loans without documentation and even jobs! All they needed to say was that they did landscape work under the table and they were golden.
Add twenty friends from the home land and suddenly you have a bunch of illegals with 13 cars and a house they turned into one BIG MATTRESS.

As soon as they defaulted on the loan, many took sledge hammers and destroyed the homes turning them virtually into junk.

One of my employees just bought his house and he told me that 5 out of 10 homes he looked at were damaged in this manner and 8 out of 10 had extensive remodeling done so the home could sleep 20+ people.

Now we find out Citibank has $1.4 Trillion in bad home loans.
I'm sure everyone can remember when Bank of America followed suit.
All these banks were jumping on the band wagon attempting to loan to illegals. A market untouched (for a damn good reason).

I would rather see the big three get $100 billion each than see these back stabbing banks get a dime!!


Sorry, I had to rant.

Rich

[enzo]

I just wanted to point something out here: Citibank lead the charge to loan money to illegal Mexicans. They went as far as hiring over 400 Spanish speaking mortgage finance pros.
These guys would go around and help illegals get loans without documentation and even jobs! All they needed to say was that they did landscape work under the table and they were golden.
Add twenty friends from the home land and suddenly you have a bunch of illegals with 13 cars and a house they turned into one BIG MATTRESS.

As soon as they defaulted on the loan, many took sledge hammers and destroyed the homes turning them virtually into junk.

One of my employees just bought his house and he told me that 5 out of 10 homes he looked at were damaged in this manner and 8 out of 10 had extensive remodeling done so the home could sleep 20+ people.

Now we find out Citibank has $1.4 Trillion in bad home loans.
I'm sure everyone can remember when Bank of America followed suit.
All these banks were jumping on the band wagon attempting to loan to illegals. A market untouched (for a damn good reason).

I would rather see the big three get $100 billion each than see these back stabbing banks get a dime!!


Sorry, I had to rant.

Rich

dude - you could not be further from accuracy

Having first hand experience with dealing with the hispanic community, these are usually the most hard working and proud group of individuals you will ever find. Keep your racist rants on another website - you sound like an idiot. Stereotyping an entire group in order to excuse the general irresponsibility of the american consumer and the corporations that caused this mess is about the dumbest thing I have seen in a while.

[James OLC]

One of the issues that will exist with altering the current union agreements outside of bankrupcy (and probably the biggest reason that no union managers are making any public comments) is the potential snowball effect into other industries. Legacy agreements are hurting other manufacturing industries and I am sure that those other businesses would welcome the opportunity to eliminate those problems. If the big 3 were given a mechanism to eliminate or significantly alter their relationship with the UAW due to hardship I imagine that it would be difficult to deny that same option to other industries who are similarly burdoned. That is probably why many in the government are leaning to some form of bankrupcy over a straight bailout.

I know that it is difficult to see how 25 billion dollars will make a rats butt of difference given the companies respective burn rate (I know that I don't see how it will help) but... there are so many different cause's and effect's in play here that if a real plan can be made (aside from eliminating voice mail, stopping the clocks and changing from mechanical to old fashioned yellow B pencils) then maybe they can succeed.

However, in my humble opinion looking from the outside in, I think that the only way to succeed (especially if GMAC etc want to be viable) two things will need to happen - first, total unit sales will have to decrease and second, a major change will have to be made to manufacturing costs (and that will have to involve the unions). As it has been pointed out, GM has been the volume sales leader and yet they are not profitable as is....

just my two bits

[surreyboy]

I just wanted to point something out here: Citibank lead the charge to loan money to illegal Mexicans. They went as far as hiring over 400 Spanish speaking mortgage finance pros.
These guys would go around and help illegals get loans without documentation and even jobs! All they needed to say was that they did landscape work under the table and they were golden.
Add twenty friends from the home land and suddenly you have a bunch of illegals with 13 cars and a house they turned into one BIG MATTRESS.

As soon as they defaulted on the loan, many took sledge hammers and destroyed the homes turning them virtually into junk.

One of my employees just bought his house and he told me that 5 out of 10 homes he looked at were damaged in this manner and 8 out of 10 had extensive remodeling done so the home could sleep 20+ people.

Now we find out Citibank has $1.4 Trillion in bad home loans.
I'm sure everyone can remember when Bank of America followed suit.
All these banks were jumping on the band wagon attempting to loan to illegals. A market untouched (for a damn good reason).

I would rather see the big three get $100 billion each than see these back stabbing banks get a dime!!


Sorry, I had to rant.

Rich

so you dont support the banks who lent money to people in america regardless of that wrongfull statement about mexicans and their contribuition to this problem, but you support gm who sends our jobs to mexico?

[spchiv]

I think Jack Welch had it right on CNBC a few days ago. Prepackaged bankruptcy with the federal government guaranteeing the debtor-in-possession financing if necessary, including warranty obligations. I think they have made great strides with their products and just need to deal with their costs. Given their long history, I don't think management and the UAW are capable of dealing with the cost issue outside of bankruptcy. That's why they are in the position they are in, they've had their chance and they took too long.

[Fluid Power]

"The only thing the government should be doing is relaxing manufacturing regulations to bring back those business and jobs to the US while increasing tariffs on imports especially from countries that ban importing US goods."


See my previous comment about the number of cars exported to Korea --- NONE! and to Japan? Thank the government for allowing those agreements to go thru...

Darren

[Tony_SS]

Originally Posted by Flash68
Do you guys understand the ramifications of too many large banks/insurance/financials being allowed to fail? I don't think you do. It is paramount to keep the financial system intact. Things are very bad, but we are lucky they are not worse than they are!

Flash I love you like to tell everyone they don't understand how the sky will fall and how folks don't 'get it' when it comes to the bailouts, but you've yet to articulate your point of exactly why this looting is necessary outside of 'we need a financial system'.

[Flash68]

Flash I love you like to tell everyone they don't understand how the sky will fall and how folks don't 'get it' when it comes to the bailouts, but you've yet to articulate your point of exactly why this looting is necessary outside of 'we need a financial system'.

Think what you want Tony, but I decided after my last post to leave this thread alone. We obviously have a disagreement about this. I have neither the time nor the patience for this topic. I usually don't allow myself to get into these types of threads and I broke my own rule here. I want to talk about and read about car stuff on this forum. I follow financial blogs and sites for my financial/econ information. Calculated Risk is a great one if you are interested. So is Paul Krugman's blog at the NYT.

My intention was not to talk down to anyone. Have fun with this. Unsubscribed.

[Jim Nilsen]

I have had enough of all of this and see only one solution.
1st we all have to agree on one thing. 2nd we all have to stand together. 3rd we have to act upon it and make sure it happens.

There is only one thing that it seems we all do and that is point the finger at the top of everyone involved. Whether it be the auto industry,the banking industry,the polititions or the unions the one thing we all seem to agree on is that there are people representing all of us in one place or another that need to be taken out. How we take them out is a subjective attitude that we(the american people) have to change to do it. The people on top are not going to walk away and they sure aren't going to take each other out either. It's a stalemate on a chessboard that has the American people in check.

It will take all of us to finally agree on the fact that it is this one perception,one way to act that brings us together. When we start to have enough support to arrest and prosecute along with remove and replace the cause of the main roots of the problem only then will this country get the cooperation and results it is looking for. When you start to hear the words BAILOUT associated with the names of people who just got arrested and put in jail for the crimes they have commited against this country will you see the attitude on top change. Until then we will continue to be raped and lied to with the deception that gets passed around through all of the blame and finger pointing that makes us divided.

I don't know what else to say anymore and I sure am tired of listening to everyone argue about who is to blame.

IT'S ALL OF US , THE AMERCAN PEOPLE WHO ARE TO BLAME !!!!!!!

WE have to stand together on one issue and act on it. That issue has to be who has to go and who gets to stay on the top no matter which part of the top you look at.

I PRAY that someday this will happen until then I see no hope for any of what we are fighting about to change a damn thing!

[hellrace]

I bought a 2009 Corvette Z06 only 3 weeks ago, and ordered a 2010 Camaro SS last week. Just doing my part :lol:

We are taking our family holiday in orlando next year, wounder if I could be your friend :unibrow: and come and visit you :rofl:

:thumbsup:

[conekiller13]

msnbc.com news services

updated 1 hour, 6 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - General Motors said Tuesday it needs $4 billion in government loans this month and a total of $12 billion by late March to keep operating. The troubled automaker said it plans to slash its numbers of workers, vehicle brands and plants by 2012.

Altogether, the auto giant is seeking up to $18 billion in government funding — including a $6 billion line of credit in case market conditions worsen.

General Motors Corp. would focus on 4 brands — Chevrolet, GMC, Buick and Cadillac. By 2012, the plan calls for 20,000 to 30,000 fewer workers, a reduction of nine facilities and 1,750 fewer dealers.

GM CEO Rick Wagoner is offering to work for a dollar a year and top executives will take major pay cuts.

Detroit’s automakers, making a second bid for $25 billion in funding, presented Congress with plans Tuesday to restructure their ailing companies and provide assurances that the funding will help them survive and thrive.

Chrysler LLC said Tuesday it has asked the U.S. government for an emergency $7-billion bridge loan by the end of the year, saying it needs the funds to survive a brutal downturn in sales that has depleted its cash reserves.

Earlier, Ford said it is asking Congress for a $9 billion “stand-by line of credit” to stabilize its business, but says it doesn’t expect to tap it.

Unless one of Detroit’s other Big Three auto companies goes bust, Ford expects to have enough money to make it through next year without government help, it said in a plan that projected the firm will break even or turn a pretax profit in 2011.

GM, Ford and Chrysler LLC said they would refinance their companies’ debt, cut executive pay, seek concessions from workers and find other ways of reviving their staggering companies.

The Big Three executives also are offering a series of mostly symbolic moves to burnish their images, badly tattered after they arrived in Washington D.C. last month on three separate private jets to plead for a federal lifeline for their struggling companies. All three companies offered separate plans for hearings that will be held Thursday and Friday.

That approach the auto executives took last month led Democratic congressional leaders to declare they didn’t come prepared to justify their pleas and they told them to go back home and ready a new plan.

This week, the automakers are going out of their way to show deference to lawmakers and a willingness to flog themselves for past mistakes. “I think we learned a lot from that experience,” Ford CEO Alan Mulally told The Associated Press in an interview.

Mulally said he’d work for $1 per year if his firm had to take any government loan money. The company’s plan also says it will cancel all management employees’ 2009 bonuses, scrap merit increases for its North American salaried employees next year, and sell its five corporate aircraft.

And for this week’s appearances here, all three company chiefs will skip the lavish travel arrangements. Mulally is coming by car from Detroit for this week’s second round of congressional hearings on government help for the Big Three. GM Chief Rick Wagoner will drive a Chevrolet Malibu hybrid sedan for the 520-mile trek from Detroit to Capitol Hill, spokesman Tony Cervone said Tuesday. Chrysler LLC CEO Robert Nardelli also plans to travel to the hearings by car...........

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28012984

[sniper]

Why is there still Chevy and GMC? You would think the first thing they would drop would be any duplication.
The company’s plan also says it will cancel all management employees’ 2009 bonuses, scrap merit increases for its North American salaried employees next year, and sell its five corporate aircraft.
Ummm, only the north american employees?

[conekiller13]

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0812/gallery.detroit_brands/index.html

If GMC sells every truck each year, then there is no reason to cancel that line. "Light trucks are a key part of the U.S. auto market and always will be. Consumers want to buy them and dealers need to sell them. And GMC is a trusted name in trucks, whatever its relationship with Chevrolet."

Jeff

http://www.kodakgallery.com/67rscamaro


If anything GM should cancel Chevy trucks and just have GMC as thier truck manufacturer. Give each brand it's own identity and product so GM is not competing with itself. Give Pontiac the G8, Solstice and Vibe and drop the G5 and G6. Leave Saturn with it's Euro sourced cars and eliminate the Sky and Outlook. Buick has only three cars right now and that's fine. It can be done.

[tones2SS]

Man, it is looking bad for the Big 3.
I still cannot believe the government & corporate watchdogs, let it get this far?? I mean, now what happens to these people that work in America for an American car company? I mean, this isn't going to shy me away from any GM product at all, but I bet it looks bad to other people out there. I think it's such a f'ning shame.:(
Meanwhile, we "continue" to send our jobs overseas for cheap labor and our own people, the American people, have to suffer. I agree to a point, that GM is a little to blame with big pay for car assembly employees and high retiree payouts. Sorry guys/gals, just had to vent a little.:mad:

[tones2SS]

I am not sure that is wise, since Chevy Trucks is the best seller. Regardless, Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra are made in the same assembly plant. If you look at the 4 brands (Chevrolet, GMC, Buick, and Cadillac) that is GM's most popular brands based on their previous sales. http://www.media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewpressreldetail.do?domain=827&docid=46752
Selling off the other brands makes more business sense than shutting down those brands. Currently, Buick only has 3 models, but I have seen a new model that is supposed to be introduced in either 2010 or 2011. I was surprised that Hummer wasn't mentioned, but GM might be planning for the new defense contracts that is in the future.

Jeff

http://www.kodakgallery.com/67rscamaro

I agree as well, but wouldn't trying to sell those other less popular brands be a lot more harder to do because they are already "damaged" goods? Wouldn't they be looked upon as failures and not likely to succed and not worth any good amount or any money at all? Like I said, I'm not getting political here, just bringing up a point, I think?? Just my opinion.

[Jim Nilsen]

Tommorow is going to be an interesting day in Washington.
If I can I am going to watch as much of it as I can.
I never cease to learn something about the character of all of the individuals invloved. It seems that they are as emotional,uninformed and uneducated sometimes about what is going on as the rest of us and they are the ones who get to make the decisions on what to do.

I will be praying for the ones who need a job and may the wisdom of someone shine through and give them all a promising way to lead us out of this.

[trapin]

Amen to that, Jim.

[Young Gun]

I dont want my current chevy to be my last...lets hope congress comes through

[69MyWay]

Wow...I just got throught these 17 pages. Great discussion and excellent view points.

Just my .02. I have bought four new GM cars in the last four years. My trucks have all been made in mexico. Our Buick was made in mexico with a chinese "world platform" engine. Service parts come come china. When I just did LS2 crate conversion on a 1985 Corvette...the accessory parts (like the a/c) came from korea.

The quality of my 07 Silverado (new body style) is poor compared to my 04 Silverado. The interior is garbage and falling apart. The panels are thin and materials are cheap.

I have wind noise, brake squeek...rattles, issues, and electronic problems in the 07. Had stupid issues with my others.

I am a die hard GM kind of guy. My dad went way up the ladder when he retired in 1988 and I grew up believing in the company and the product. I grew up believing in the value of Made in the USA. I remember as a kid that cheap junk toys came from Japan...and now we see how that has gone.

However...I get confused and frustrated when I can't even honestly say any more that even my truck is truly made in the USA...and inferior to its prior model at that.

The whole thing is confusing and frustrating. I don't want them to go under, but I sure do want them to get a clue.

I will never buy import...but then again...I'm already buying import, just paying a fortune for the union labor...etc. associated with it! LOL

[Flash68]

I just had to post this...

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/flash68/bailoutyk2.jpg

[tones2SS]

It's really too bad. I've said this before and I'll keep saying.
Looks like they don't know what to do to help bail out the Big 3?? Now, they want to dip into the financial bailout money of 700,000,000?!?!!?
Man, this is nuts!!!!:willy: :willy:
I just wish America and all of it's people are going to be ok. But, I don't see that happening for a long time with all the job cuts/losses. And that's besides the number of people that are going to be directly affected by a bankruptcy if the Big 3 go that route.

[ProTouring442]

There are also good and defensible reasons as to why the major car companies should be assisted through the approval of loans for the purpose of helping them survive a serious economic crisis. Of course their is the incredible impact that the loss of GM or Ford would have on the US economy due to the large number of people employed either with or through them. While the so-called "Big Three" directly employ around 335,000 people, their jobs would not be the only ones affected by the failure of the US auto industry. It is estimated that nearly 1 out of every 10 people employed in the US is employed by a company or in a service related to the US auto industry. Even if we could somehow contain the job losses to the 335,000 directly employed by the industry, the collateral effect such an increase in the number of people suddenly jobless would have on the economy is likely to be more than our economy can handle and will plunge the US, and most likely the world, into a depression likely to be much larger than the one experienced in the 1930s. History also shows that the major auto manufacturers played a vital role in the defense of the US during WWII and Korea. During WWII the former president of GM, William Knudsen, headed the effort that lead the US auto industry to produce some $29 billion dollars worth of vital war materiel. Thus it can be truthfully stated that the US citizenry has a vested interest in the survival of the US auto industry due not only to the impact their closure would have on the economy, but also as to the role they would play in any future major conflict in which the US was involved.

As for the supposed lack of quality in the domestic vehicles, I can say that my company car, a 2007 Chevrolet Equinox AWD, is a very nice car. It gets very good fuel mileage, is quite, rides smooth, and handles better that any car-truck has the right to do. My parents own a 2008 Buick Lucerne, and it is a fantastic automobile. On their recent trip for the holidays their Lucerne averaged 30mpg, and has to be the quietest car I've ever ridden in. Everything about this car performs flawlessly, a statement I cannot say about my wife's current car, a 1999 Mercedes Benz SLK230. The SLK's interior sheds parts faster than a long haired dog sheds hair in the spring, and the seats are really comfortable for at least the first 30 minutes! Her former car, a Mazda Miata was the worst though. The engine was noisier than a 40 year old sewing machine, and the interior was made by the same people who bring you those molded plastic cafeteria chairs!

My last GM car was a 1996 Pontiac Bonneville SSEi which pushed 30mpg on the highway, and had more than enough pep to be quite a fun car to drive. Before the '96 was a '90 that we sold when it turned past 200K miles, needing only a security module and an alternator during its stay in my family.

Yes, GM in particular and the US Auto Industry in general need to revamp their operations, but you cannot change a company as large as GM overnight. Especially one that is required to pay the employees it lays off for an additional four years! GM pioneered the air bag, brought us the successful front wheel drive car, designed (and I believe still builds) the crash-test dummy, etc, etc. GM has been turning its ship around for some time now, though the recent economic downturn hit them while they were still down, and much like the Queen Mary, this ship will need a bit of room if it is to avoid a fatal collision.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill