Manual or Auto?

[jonny51]

Okay I need some opinions.Should I run a T-56 or a 4L80E with a shrifter in my camaro.It will have a SBC TT, Hp will be about 800+.I am having a real hard time deciding on which one to run.

[XcYZ]

TT and Shrifter. :thumbsup:

[jonny51]

Scott I should have put that your not allowed to vote :lolhit:

[XcYZ]

Lol :D

[T Bell]

that's a hard one for me because I have never driven a Shrifter equipped car. So for now I would say the T-56.

[camcojb]

If you drive a lot, or get in heavy traffic often the auto with Shrifter is the way to go. I like the manuals for fun, but prefer the new autos for extended driving, plus the Shrifter puts a LOT of the fun back into it.


Jody

[Hydratech®]

For max E.T. and MPH I'd definitely do the auto trans. For the max street driving fun factor I'd do the manual (though I'd speculate your ride could be up to a full second slower with the manual trans if you figure a 1/4 to 1/2 second loss per shift average). Unless you're running a Lenco, or you are the power shifter from hell, no human can shift as fast as an auto trans while continuously applying power to the rear wheels, not to mention the torque multiplication factor of a nice converter. Actually it's real simple in my book, as you're running a twin turbo setup = definitely go with the auto to keep the whistlers boosting continuously and smoothly vs pounding your blow off valves to death with the manual.

There is always merit to putting an engine just about up against its rev limiter and side stepping the clutch though! :D :willy:

Steevo's Shrifter will help keep both hands on the wheel during your banzai blasts, which in a serious power situation is always a good thing! :drive:

[MRBoss429x]

Im new on here so Im not sure if you're lookin to drag race or road race or what. Obviously the auto is going to be ebst for draging and even possibly the twisties if set up right but shear fun factor goes to the t56. I drive an LT1/4L60 but have driven many a t56 equipped vehicle and would take that over an auto. For some reason I dont like paddle shifting though im sure its quit fun and practical.

[Steve Chryssos]

I had a nice lengthly response typed up. Instead, I think I'm gonna try to stay out of this one.
/Steevo

[907rs]

I had a nice lengthly response typed up. Instead, I think I'm gonna try to stay out of this one.
/Steevo

Go ahead, I'm sure Jonny would like your input, Steve.

[race-rodz]

real cars have 3 pedals :unibrow:

[XcYZ]

I had a nice lengthly response typed up. Instead, I think I'm gonna try to stay out of this one.
/Steevo

Lets hear it, Steve. :yes:

[MaxHarvard]

Auto :D

best part... you can chirp the tires or in your case... ROAST THEM at your whim :)

oh yea, not to mention the cruise factor you have with an auto compared to a stick.

[Steve Chryssos]

Lets hear it, Steve.

Alright,
I didn't want to come across as a biased salesman (It's hard not to since A: I'm biased, and B: I'm a salesman.) Johnny51 PM'd me for my input. I hope he doesn't mind if I post my response in total (unedited) out in the open. Sorry if I will offend anyone and feel free to argue any of my points.
/Steevo

-QUOTE
"I know it's a tough decision. You have to compare a virtual unknown (the manumatic) to a proven solution. I suggest that you think of the paddle shifter as icing on the cake and instead focus on comparing a computer controlled automatic to a manual with the emphasis on "computer control". When you do that, it breaks down like this:

1) Reliability: 4L80E I have not seen any data showing the T56 can handle the recent popularity in big TT power. And it's really too soon to ask.
2) Timed Accel: 4L80E The '80 has the advantage in 0-60, E.T. and most important: consistency.
3) Road Race Acceleration: TIE (The manumatic allows you to pick a gear, hit your apex, and get back in the throttle at the right rpm. The manual will beat the 4L80E if you are very good at shifting.
4) Road Race Decel: Manual If you like to use compression braking when diving into corners, the manual has an advantage due to the lack of overrun clutches in 4th gear on the 4L80E. You can engage the overrun clutches by selecting 3rd instead of 4th with your 4L80E, then paddle shifting 1-2-3 only. Or keep it in 4th and just use your car's brakes to the fullest--which is what I do.
5) Commuting: 4L80E That one's obvious.
6) Installation: 4L80E Spend some time in the "manual transmission" topics and look at all the problems people are having with some T56 vendors and the installation process. Unlike fuel injection, trans controllers are extremely easy to install, will work out of the box (base calibration) and are easy (and fun) to calibrate for optimized performance.
7) "Wow-Factor" 4L80E Trust me, you may as well have Pamela Anderson sitting in your cockpit.
8) Price: 4L80E Total cost is around $3500.
9) Guarantee: 4L80E I offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee on the Shrifter--including shipping. That may be of little consequence since you still have to buy the other automatic transmission system components. I can't help you there. But it's nice to know that I stand behind the paddle shifter. And I'll stick with you throughout the install/calibration process.

So to me, the auto is the quanitifiable winner. You just have to get over some of the subjective issues like "banging gears" and "fear of the unknown". The thrill of bangin' gears DOES get offset with the novelty of triggering shifts without taking your hands off the wheel or switching to "manual mode" on the fly to carve up light traffic on the highway. It's a good feeling, but very different. Paddle shifting is almost too easy. It's a surgical, electronic feeling rather than an aggressive, mechanical sensation.

I can't really help you with fear of the unknown, except to recommend that you test drive some manumatic factory cars--but only if they offer steering wheel controls. Nudging a +/- floor shifter on a Kia is not the same.
I understand that this is new technology. It inspires lots of questions, so feel free to ask away.
And thank you for your interest
/Steevo
-END QUOTE

[Musclerodz]

You know, I have bought and sold TWO six speeds, and one auto trying to make up my mind on this one. As I get closer to the final product design of my car I have taken a couple things into consideration. I do plan to track my car and although I love blast through any corner I find, I have no real world experience. Although I REALLY want a 6 speed for mpg, I am leaning more towards the auto and Shrifter for the '68 for a couple reasons.

A. F1-paddle shift - just cool
B. Grand AM C6 Corvettes- paddleshift - win almost every race
C. auto for big HP realiability
D. easier to use on the track
E. Less likely my wife will break it

With gas looming around $3.00/gal, mileage is everything right now as I do plan to put miles on my car. Auto will have a little less mileage than a manual with everything else equal. Hope this helps. I am sure Steevo is happy he is about to win over another "gear bangin" wanna be.

Mike

[Steve Chryssos]

I am sure Steevo is happy he is about to win over another "gear bangin" wanna be.
Mike

Yeah, I have no delusions of converting everyone. Actually, I'm impressed that the polling results are as close as they are. The vote of confidence is encouraging to say the least. My only goal is to try and educate people as best I can. What ever happens after that is up to the consumer.
Thanks for initiating the poll Jon
/Steevo

[race-rodz]

just to add to the debate i will throw in my $.02 about deciding on auto/manual.

IF i was to build a mostly street driven cruiser, i would lean towards the auto. reasoning should be pretty obvious.... but if it was meant to be a street driven cruiser... why would we be doing TT set-up and shooting for the 800hp mark?

IF i planned on building the ultimate weekend thrasher...800hp TT... and planned on tearing up the dragstrip and seldom looking for the road track... i would also be looking towards the auto.

here is the major reason why i would choose a manual, my personal interests have more to do with road racing, drag racing is cool...but more of a "just cuz i can" thing... i come from road racing bikes, my personal driving style is where the manual trans comes into play..... engine braking is part of it.... but mostly of being able to engine brake to a point.... clutch and select the right gear for accelerating out of the corner.... usually its a downshift beyond where i was for braking. granted.... if i was willing to LEARN to drive the paddle shifted auto.... this could be easy to duplicate... and faster downshift at exactly the right moment to get it back in the power for accelerating out.... but im set in my ways of burning the clutch earlier in the exits keeping the tires on the edge of staying stuck.

i personally wont pony up for something i dunno if i will really like.... for my driving style. i will stick with what i know and like, but thats just me.

i honestly cant see any reason why someone who doesnt have personal preferance to the way they max effort drive... would not be willing to go paddle shifted auto.

btw.. all my vehicles except my bagged crew cab dually have been road raced at some point..... even my daily driver sts has been to an autocross event.(front wheel drive V8/auto...talk about ugly :D)

[steemin]

Real men drive manuals.
On the other hand I wish I was secure enough in my masculinity to let my gears be shifted automatically. :)

All kidding aside if you are on the fence you will be happy with either choice. The Shrifter is a great product..Perhaps the best of both worlds.
However for me I prefer bangin the gears!!!
Scott

[Stuart Adams]

I have a car with a manumatic setup (E55) and I rarely use it. It's nice that the tranny shifts itself. There is a fun factor with the shifting, but If I don't have to I prefer not to.

Manual tranny's have to be shifted, no choice. Most driving, besides racing, is much easier and less hassle when the tranny shifts itself.

My point is that manual HAS to be shifted, Manumatics have a choice.

I must be getting old, but a great auto setup is just as good or better than manual for overall use, IMO.

[Steve Chryssos]

I see a lot of "bangin gears" feedback. I can't do anything to emulate or replace the visceral "rowing" sensation or the heel/toe tapdance. Although paddle shifting is stimulating (much more so than a floor shifted auto, I guess I'm trying to eliminate that sensation with the Shrifter:

1) Complete each shift as quickly and/or efficiently as possible--and with a high degree of repeatability.
2) Concentrate on steering wheel control, throttle control and brake application.
3) Reduce the likelihood of driver error during downshifts.
4) Support the Pro-Touring mantra, by bringing previously untapped technology to the world of hot rodding.

I guess it can be summed up by comparing a hammer to a nail gun. Sure you'll vent more frustration with a hammer, but you'll probably get more accomplished with the nail gun. :D
/Steevo

[lil427z]

go with what you like . it is your car . :willy:

that is what i thank , rick kirkindall

[jonny51]

I like both,thats the problem. :drive:

[race-rodz]

I guess it can be summed up by comparing a hammer to a nail gun. Sure you'll vent more frustration with a hammer, but you'll probably get more accomplished with the nail gun. :D
/Steevo

this needs to go into the quote of the week section.....if we had one

[Musclerodz]

Interesting the poll right now is dead even. Here is where I am at in decision making process.

Manual positive

bangin gears
better gas mileage with lower ratio
bangin gears

manual negative

miss shifts
more work at the track for the inexperienced

manumatic positive

no miss shifts
equal or better et's
easier at track
cool to look at
newest coolest toy

manumatic negative

run higher gear ratio for mpg
no gear bangin
no side stepping the clutch

I know there is more but even my arguement with myself is about even. Go figure.

Mike

[clill]

I am having a ball driving the Malitude with the auto. A stick would probably be handier with engine braking into turns on a road course but how much of the time will you really spend at a track ? But then I have gray hair so the next thing I'll be looking at 4 doors....... :D

[XcYZ]

4 doors, lol.

Jonny, you need one of each - a 69 with and 6 speed and a 69 with the 4L80E. :D

[Payton King]

I will put my two cents in from cars a little more exotic. One of my policyholders has an all wheel drive 956 TT that has has some work done to it. It is making only 546 hp(lol). One of the fastest if not the fastest street driven car I have ever been in. No real worries about wheel spin. Anyway when you are making that kind of power I just felt short changed driving the car though the back roads as you did not spend much time in any gear.

It would pull like a freight train only to bump the red line and time to shift to the next gear. When I was driving I was thinking to myself...if this think had and auto with a paddle shift what a rush that would be.

Drove a 360 Modena with a paddle shift....well that is all that needs to be said.

I am running a T56 in my car. I was concerned with the nitrous I was going to run for the same reason I would be with a TT car. You are on the juice and it is time to shift. You lift a little and the n2o shuts off, bang the gear, and it is back on. Since my car is NA with no juice now, I will stick with the manual. If I had a TT car it would be an auto all of the way.

[Steve Chryssos]

Well that brings us into slightly a differently territory--the discussion of:
a) Lock-up torque converter/Planetary gearset with electronic solenoid control.
vs
b) Clutch/mechanical gearset with manual control.

As engine output increases, this topic becomes more significant. And very few of us--myself included--have real seat time with both transmission platforms when applied to big power. Charley Lillard (Malitude vs Mule) and the folks at Wheel to Wheel come to mind. It would be beneficial to all if they could fill in the blanks on that transmission comparison with respect to big power (i.e. 1000HP-T56 vs 1000HP-4L80E). Put aside the "driving experience" issue here and focus on drivetrain reliability and power application (getting power to the ground).
/Steevo

[jonny51]

4 doors, lol.

Jonny, you need one of each - a 69 with and 6 speed and a 69 with the 4L80E. :D

There you go again!You know I have another 69 with a 6 speed(well soon anyway). :willy: Don't worry it looks like you may get your T-56 :_paranoid

Thank you everybody for your input.

[69rs]

Build one of each and we'll all test each one and get back to you.....me first!

[jonny51]

Build one of each and we'll all test each one and get back to you.....me first!

I am already one step ahead of you :unibrow:

[groovyjay]

Only manual transmissions for me automatics are for handicap people... :thumbsup:

[DCreations]

Only manual transmissions for me automatics are for handicap people... :thumbsup:



Lmao :hail:

[Canadian_Hot_Rodder]

I'm with Payton King on this one. With that much power you are rowing through gears so fast that you don't know what is going on! I would go with the 4L80E + Shrifter for sure.

[Scotch]

On an N/A motor I'd go stick, but with boost (or juice), I say go with the Auto to avoid potential "missed shift" tragedies at WOT. You've got too much into the motor to let a single missed shift potentially hurt it.

I've always preached this with nitrous, and with boost I feel the same way.

The previous comment regarding keeping the boost up during shifts is also a very valid point.

That, and Steevo's just plain cool...


SP~!

[californiacuda]

The F Bomb is using a 2 speed power glide and will add a gearvendors later. Strong combo.

[Bowtieracing]

On an N/A motor I'd go stick, but with boost (or juice), I say go with the Auto to avoid potential "missed shift" tragedies at WOT. You've got too much into the motor to let a single missed shift potentially hurt it.


I am 110% manualtrans guy and wont never go with automatic . But as Scotch said with insane power and boost good automatic will be easyer to drive and control. Johnnys engine will eat up T56 easily if miss shifted.

[Steve Chryssos]

I forgot about this thread.

There have been LOTS of changes as of late:

--Mark Bowler has emerged as a master of electronic transmissions. His units are pricey, but so is an 800HP TT engine.
--Mark Bowler has also developed electronics that will allow you to seamlessly perform gear changes AND gear splits by way of my paddle shifter. So if you put a Gear Venders unit behind a 4L60E or 4L80E, you get a 6/8 speed manumatic. (Six speed with the selector in 3rd gear, eight speed with the selector in OD)
--We are working with Pro Torque to develop small diameter (light weight), high efficiency, multi disc lock up torque converters specifically for pro-touring automatics. We will put one in my car this week for final testing. We will follow up by putting one in the red car. Then I can explain in greater detail. We expect to start selling them in 60 days.
More from Bowler Transmissions:
--They offer valve bodies modified for engine braking. These are for 4L60E class transmissions. also available for the 4L60E is a revised solenoid schematic that turns it into a six speed. You can see and hear the modification in action. HERE (http://www.pro-touring.com/events/pigeon_forge_2006/air-ride-2nd-gen-camaro-medium.wmv)

[Speedster]

A question to add to the auto pile: Has anyone had any cooling (overheating) problems with the automatic trans or the torque converter ? How large a tranny cooler do you need, and between a radiator, intercooler, a/c fins, where have people located their tranny coolers ? What is the overall weight difference between a 4L80E versus a T-56/TKO-600? I want to use a Shrifter with a 4L80E on an upcoming project. Is the point the converter locks up completely programmable from a laptop ? With a laptop or other controller can you have multiple pre-programmed shift maps ? How many ? What are the available 4th gear ratios on the 4L80E ? i.e. how large a drop between 3rd and 4th can be put in to the 4L80E ?

Steevo (or Mark Bowler) - how much power CAN this transmission truly handle ? Assume the extreme case of slicks in a drag race environment. Sorry about all the questions but this is a great thread.

[Steve Chryssos]

A question to add to the auto pile: Has anyone had any cooling (overheating) problems with the automatic trans or the torque converter ? How large a tranny cooler do you need, and between a radiator, intercooler, a/c fins, where have people located their tranny coolers ? What is the overall weight difference between a 4L80E versus a T-56/TKO-600? I want to use a Shrifter with a 4L80E on an upcoming project. Is the point the converter locks up completely programmable from a laptop ? With a laptop or other controller can you have multiple pre-programmed shift maps ? How many ? What are the available 4th gear ratios on the 4L80E ? i.e. how large a drop between 3rd and 4th can be put in to the 4L80E ?

Steevo (or Mark Bowler) - how much power CAN this transmission truly handle ? Assume the extreme case of slicks in a drag race environment. Sorry about all the questions but this is a great thread.

Dern Bruce! That's like 19 questions.
Cooler: Just cracked open my TCI 4L60E for the first time after positively crucifying it for the last four years during paddle shifter R&D. The pan was as clean as a whistle with the pan magnet catching any normal wear. Cooler capacity is 12"x4" for 500HP. I have not seen one single case of excessive heat due to manumatic control.
Lock-up. Yes completely laptop programmable and based on driven wheel speed.
Maps: Maps are handled two ways. Common pc files that are stored on your laptop and uploaded as needed AND tow or more variations that can be toggled by switch or sensor. In your case, I would run the PCS controller and use two load inputs--TPS and Boost. TPS would be the primary load input. Regarding the boost input, when the engine sees vacuum the trans is a *****cat. Boost? The calibration firms up.


That's it for now. More later or tomorrow.

[Speedster]

Thanks for the answers Steve. Like many other industries, the manumatic was tried years ago (like 50-60) but people like you have brought it into the 21st century with modern electronics (and brainpower).

Like many on this thread, I am exploring the present capabilities and plan on using the Shrifter/Auto setup on an upcoming project. How much weight does the Gear Vendors add ?

Thanks again Steevo !!

[Steve Chryssos]

Thanks

Where was I. Oh yeah. Weight for a 4L80E is 180 pounds. Not sure how much a T56 and clutch weigh. Gear ratios are 1:1 for 3rd and .67 for OD.

[Jr]

Steve,
How many up/down shifts do you count in the video you posted?

[Steve Chryssos]

Not very many. That wa strictly a second gear course. 4? 5?

[cutlasskid]

i have a tt set up and i can tell you the first 2 gears in the t-56 seam use less they go by so fast , my foot is off the gas more than on the gas untill 3rd comes along and then the car starts hauling i can say the 6th gear is great with a 3.90 rear gear on the highway 80mph and 2100 rpm you can't beat that. so if you want a good quater mile go auto.

[californiacuda]

Car and Driver has an article about the new Ferrari 599gtb. It has the same engine as an Enzo but with 40 fewer hp and weighs 700lbs more. Its 0-60 time 3.3 and 1/4 mile 11.2.

Same performance time as the Enzo. 700lbs more, 40 hp less? How?????

Answer. Paddle shifter and preset launch program(traction control). Technology works.

[Steve Chryssos]

Yup. And the latest Porsche Tiptronic Turbo is faster that the manual car. Automatics have always benefitted from better torque multiplication and no loss of rpm between shifts. But now, the power is getting through as well. That is mostly due to advancements in torque converter design. The Ferrari still uses a clutch, but the Turbo has a converter.

We developed torque converters in conjunction with Pro Torque that are specifically engineered for pro-touring cars. That means short tires and overdrive. Called MuscleDrive, our converters start with high efficiency turbines and impellors, custom built stators, high surface area, ceramic impregnated lock up clutches and race grade parts such as billet steel front covers, torrington bearings, anti-balloon plates and more.

The typical "street/strip" converter will yield slippage and power loss under part throttle application. Street/strip converters are spec'd for best WOT performance, but ignore the rest of the powerband. They're also cheap which means that they start with turbines and impellors from a 1980-something Oldsmobuick. Lock up versions have clutches that are typically no wider than a shoelace. OE style narrow clutches are only useful for light load highway cruising.

MuscleDrive converters achieve high coupling efficiency at a very low rpm. Stall speeds are calibrated for part throttle performance. The wide area ceramic impregnated lock up clutch can be applied over a wide rpm range. The lock-up clutch is strong enough to stay applied at WOT. And when you take your foot off the gas to dive into a turn, then engine and trans are directly coupled in lock up, so the converter tugs on the motor--just like a manual. I could throw you in the passenger seat, blind-fold you and tell you that you're driving in a car with a sequential manual.

Yeah....Technology is great. :willy:

[customcam]

With these new Coverters does it change the Hp Loss compared to prior Auto trans built?
Nearly every1 thats running a 'NA LSx Non drag only' car has a manual
I think it would be cool to have 6-8 speed Auto behind say an Na Ls2/7 600-650 hp
What would be the loss compare dto a Manual Steve?
thanks

[Steve Chryssos]

Yes. Absolutely. It is a question of coupling efficiency. If engine speed and transmission input shaft speed are the same, 100% coupling efficiency is said to be achieved. AKA direct drive. With a manual transmission, 100% coupling efficiency is achieved as soon as you take your foot off the clutch pedal. After that, the only loss is attributed to parasitic loss through the drivetrain. Ride that clutch and you get slippage.

For most of the automatic transmission's history, lock up converters did not exist. More importantly, converter design has been historically poor. A 1967, '77 or 1983 Oldsmobuick could barely muster 80% coupling efficiency. The engine spins faster than the transmission. The result is slippage. Like everything else, current software technology has made the difference in turbine and impellor design. (The turbine is connected to the input shaft and the impellor, aka pump is connected to the engine). Called Computational Fluid Dynamics, the software has allowed major auto maufacturers to achieve 90% plus coupling efficiency BEFORE lock up. It is not a major leap of faith. It is easy to accept that the converter from a 98 or 2002 vehicle is more efficient than one from an older car. Manufacturers spent ginormous sums of money to improve efficiency in the name of gas mileage. The aftermarket cannot afford this technology, so we start with OE turbine and impellor cores.

Your average street/strip bargain converter is still based on cheap-to-buy old fashioned (pre-CFD) cores. If your converter manufacturer starts with a slightly more expensive late model core, you take advantage of the much higher coupling efficiency rates. Higher coupling efficiency even makes it possible to run a lower stall speed. Power is getting through during the stall and acceleration phases, so it is less necessary to "slip" the engine up to a higher rpm where it makes more power. That high stall slippage feels horrible in a pro-touring car. Start with the right core and a lower stall, and it is possible to acheive a nice tight felling converter without hurting performance. And all this occurs BEFORE the final phase known as lock up where 100% coupling efficiency is achieved.

Once the converter is locked up, you achieve 100% coupling efficiency--just like a manual. The trick is to MAINTAIN 100% coupling efficiency by increasing the clutch surface area and using ceramic impregnated materials. Old school lock up converters have a clutch surface about as wide as your shoe lace. They only lock up under light load circumstances such as highway cruising.
But what if you make more power or want to use the lock up clutch over a wider range--say a winding road? With a heavy duty clutch, you can lock up the converter and leave it locked up without shear. I even use my lock up clutch to induce a small amount of engine braking--which is nice, since you never have excessive drag. These converters are especially useful for pro-touring cars where part throttle operation is key, where most street/strip converters are only spec'd for WOT performance.

Automatic transmissions get a bad rap for excessive parasitic loss when in fact, it is a question of parasitic loss PLUS slippage. While marginally greater parasitic loss is true, much of that parasitic loss is in fact the result of converter slippage. Start with high efficiency blades and augment them with a heavy duty clutch and the numbers are much closer. The difference can be hypothetically zeroed out by a converter's torque multiplication and the fact that there is no power interruption between shifts.

You won't be the guinea pig. I have three development cars at my shop, and I've already sold a few of these converters. There is no magic here. As with everything else pro-touring, we're just taking advantage of modern technology that has trickled down from the OE's. I work with Pro-Torque to make sure that you get a high efficiency, high quality part. They thought I was nuts, so I brought them a pro-touring car and showed them the importance part throttle "on the gas/off the gas" operation. When I send in an order for a Twist converter, they stop, put away their drag car "WOT" philosophy and engineer a converter for a pro-touring car.

I hope that all makes sense. If you need further clarification, be sure to give me a call.

[Steve Chryssos]

One more thing..:faint: ..By geting all of the slop out of the converter, you get that nice "chugging" direct drive feel that makes a manual transmission so entertaining.

[californiacuda]

Steve, how does the loss in acceleration while shifting a manual compare with a properly set up auto? Any time comparisons of like .25 to .5 seconds between gears when acceleration stops?

[Steve Chryssos]

I don't care to guess. Any answer will put us squarely into bench racing territory. Plus the answer is entirely vehicle and driver dependant.

[customcam]

thanks Steve for the thorough run down

[AUTODYNAMICS]

well with all that said, i have decided to install the twist machine paddle shifter in my charger... i have thought about all the aforementioned material, however realizing all this the auto vs manual comparison also comes down to cost, the paddle shifter really doesn't cost that much for the performance you get. I will be installing the shrifter in my charger this week and i will post all pro's/ cons on the unit. i believe the auto trans has needed a product like this for a long time. you get the best of both worlds and above and beyond all Reliablity!!!! we all have missed a gear here and there. well guys i will let you know how it all turns out. I think the steve has a premier product here! PETE

[Ummgawa]

Well.....

If I could get a 6 speed in a golf cart, I'd play more golf. I'd still suck at it, but I'd play more.

I might get a paddle shifter and keep the 6 speed, just to fool em.

[badbu68]

That makes me wonder, how hard would it be to convert a manual shifter for use on an auto by keeping the gate on it and have it control an electronic shifter ala paddle shifter. With a manual valve body, what would be the difference except for no use to hit the 3rd pedal (unless that was a neutral switch). hmmm

[Steve Chryssos]

The biggest limitation to that design is the use of electro-mechanical actuators to perform the shifting. Movement of actuator motors take time whereas a true manumatic relies entirely on electrons--no friction to overcome or rod movement. You tap an electric paddle switch. It sends a signal to a computer which, in turn, directly hits the electric shift solenoids.

The other major distinction is safety. With an all electronic system, the computer can disallow a shift signal input if you shift erroneoulsy (i.e. downshift into 1st at 100mph)

The computer is the heart of the system--not the shifter. The shift mechanism is merely an input device--just like the keyboard or mouse on your PC. On a true manumatic, the detent on the side of the transmission never moves. It stays in the "D" position.

[badbu68]

The biggest limitation to that design is the use of electro-mechanical actuators to perform the shifting. Movement of actuator motors take time whereas a true manumatic relies entirely on electrons--no friction to overcome or rod movement.

I understand this, but what is it that people love about manual transmissions? Bangin gears. If you'd make a "4 speed, manual gated" auto shifter, you could accomplish the same thing. Row it if you want to, other wise leave it in 4th and it will shift for you. You could even have the paddle shifters as a second input once it's in 4th. And I'm not talking about a mechanical actuator other than the lever hitting a switch.

Am I the only guy that likes this idea??? Heck, I'd spring load a 3rd pedal and never worry about crunching into gear or ruining a clutch while powershifting.

[chicane]

In a duality mindset... I really like the idea behind a manumatic... and there have been a few comments that pretty much sell it for what it is.

On a N/A induction, a manual is the ticket. That is just something I enjoy.

On boost... auto/manumatic... all the way. Especially if you see more street time than you will ever on the track. But even then... the electronics and converter technology make it work... just as you would want, on the street or on the track.

I think that just having the ability to effortlessly go between the two modes... makes this a no brainer to me. I think a manumatic would be the way to go. And if you spend any time in traffic... you will thank yourself later... that is for sure. And all of this coming from a manual transmission guy !!

Good luck with the decision.

[deuce_454]

i understand all the emotional arguments about a manual tranny... and for benchracing purposes i agree wholehartedly... but on a turbo car.. it would be lunacy to install a manual tranny simply for he fact that every time you lift the acceletaror and depress the clutch your turbo is loosing revs and you are loosing boost... i know that a blow off valve can help out some.. but yoy are still venting energy into thin air, and not towards the pavement.. heck even supras are faster on the drag strip with powerglides than with high dollar 6 speed trannys and carbon clutches...

and if you plan to drive the car arround it is much.. much nicer to enjoy the ride in trafic than perpetually working the clutch because the guy in front of you is 1 mph slower than your car is running in first gear at idle.. (and with a clutch that can handle a TT engine, you will propably do real damnage to you knee that way)

[COYBILT]

If it were a turbo car I would say auto, but manual it is if N/A.

[customcam]

What if u have a 750 hp big block up front ?

[6D9]

Steve...with your new style "protouring" converters how does exceleration feel from a dead stop as compared to a regular street/strip converter?? Does it flash up at all??? If you did like to go to the strip at all does it make it hard to get into the cams powerband??

[Steve Chryssos]

All converters are built to spec, so if one were to demand a looser converter, I wouldn't refuse. But as a rule of thumb, converter stall runs about 500 rpm lower than your typical street/strip converter. Coupling efficiency is greater across the board as well, so flash stall rpm tends to run lower as well. Your drivetrain will tug harder on the engine.

All this should theoretically hinder E.T. and 60 foot times, but given te traction limitations of the typical pro-touring tire, the tighter converter can help overall.

A more specific response would require a detailed conversation with you regarding vehicle specs. Feel free to give us a call.

Thanks
/Steve

[6D9]

Thanks for the info Steve....yeah when I go to the track I put on big n littles so im sure it would slow the car down. But im sure it would drive a whole bunch better with the tighter converter. If I could just stay away from the damn dragstrip it would be an easy choice!

[SDMAN]

Im doing both. The motor in my current project is using both front and rear motor plates to mount it into the A/M frame. I will swap between the 4L80E and T-56, and with the motor supported on both ends, tranny swaps get real easy under the lift. Im betting I could do it in a couple of hours by myself.

I want the T-56 because its a ton of fun to manually shift a hi HP car (Procharged 542ci pump gas combo....approx 900 HP). But, I will also be making some serious 1/4 mile passes, and want the increased performance and consistency that the auto will have. Frame goes into the race car shop on Jan 3 for the 4-link and watts setup install. The minitub on the body is also underway to make room for the rear tires (the rear seat is going to be pretty narrow).

Question for someone who knows the answer to this. We have to cut the floor out of the car to get it onto the A/M frame. Then, with the drivetrain installed, put a floor back in leaving the required clearance in the tunnel. We would like to use the larger (physically) of the 2 tranny setups to do this. One will be the 4L85E and the other will be the T-56 on a McLeod modular bellhousing.

Which setup is the larger one?

[bigtyme1]

Gotta say 4l80E, I'm old and my knees are older!

[deuce_454]

how old is this... it was posted on 09-04-2005, 10:38 PM please some moderator lock this or add "old thread" in the title... i mean if the guy hasnt chosen a tranny yet, he propably never will

[jonny51]

how old is this... it was posted on 09-04-2005, 10:38 PM please some moderator lock this or add "old thread" in the title... i mean if the guy hasnt chosen a tranny yet, he propably never will

I chose a T56 a long time ago.

[Silver69LS1]

Okay I need some opinions.Should I run a T-56 or a 4L80E with a shrifter in my camaro.It will have a SBC TT, Hp will be about 800+.I am having a real hard time deciding on which one to run.

I'm going with a built 4L80E and the Shrifter. Easy choice with all that power. Once you get over the 750hp mark, The baddest T-56 will not hold up for long. I guess it depends on how hard you are planning on driving it. I was torn myself, until I found that Shrifter. Mine's still not together but I can't wait to try it.

[olds]

You have 800 horsepower in your car as a street driver, or this is the plan ya?

My question is what guy in his right mind would not want to downshift that kind of power? Go with the t-56.

#1 and biggest negative of auto - can only downshift 1 gear at a time.

[gearhead1186]

with that kinda power ur only going to need to downshift one...

downshifting two gears with that power wuld be useless... (read as: sliding sideways into a tree) :wow:

[Stale67SS]

Race cars have 3 pedals !! :thumbsup: So go for the T56

[Weldon0405]

Well, I thought I knew which I was going to vite for prior to reading through this great thread; however, I realized where I stand on this matter once I was educated on what the Shrifter Kit is. I am new to the forum and do not have true race experience, but I will add my 2 cents and experiences.

Lets start with my daily driver; 2005.5 Audi A4 Quattro with the 2.0T. The tranny is a six-speed Tiptronic. The tranny is an automatic which can be manually shifted by moving the shifter to the right from the Drive position. The manumatic tranny makes cornering very simple. Begin braking, manually downshift to the gear you want for coming out of the turn, and continue on by putting the tranny back in Drive for the small stuff. I personally really like the manually shifted automatic.

I took a defensive driving course about a year and a half ago while in a DoD training course. This course was taught by a contracted group of racing instructors (I'm not sure exactly what company they work for). I thought I knew about driving until we hit the road course... For everyday life with driving in the rain and whatnot ABS is awesome, but it does not come close to holding it's own with Thresh hold braking a non-ABS car. Maybe I'm just not skilled enough with a manual tranny, but I found it much easier to make significantly better lap times with the Auto over the Manual on the courses with tons of turns. (Plus it was much easier to control the car going through the turns while being able to maintain both hands on the wheel.) And the auto we were driving wasn't even a Manumatic.

Well, like I said, I am by know means an expert on this situation; just two pennies from a newbie. I know I would have never picked the automatic over the manual until I drove a Manumatic.

[nvr2fst]

Just curious if anybody knows about Mastershift's new paddle shift set up. I think it was debuted at Sema for the "manual fanatics". Although the clutch pedal is not deleted for those who strive on the " 3 pedal way or no way" it does eliminate the manual thrashing gears through the console and putting them up at the wheel. Any thoughts? I heard it may be released some time in January. I personally like the idea of the paddle shifted auto (attributing I guess getting older or getting lazier) and twist machines product is right up there against todays auto technology, but I already have a manual 6 speed and debating on going opposite.
Dave

[Steve Chryssos]

Well, I thought I knew which I was going to vite for prior to reading through this great thread; however, I realized where I stand on this matter once I was educated on what the Shrifter Kit is. I am new to the forum and do not have true race experience, but I will add my 2 cents and experiences.

Lets start with my daily driver; 2005.5 Audi A4 Quattro with the 2.0T. The tranny is a six-speed Tiptronic. The tranny is an automatic which can be manually shifted by moving the shifter to the right from the Drive position. The manumatic tranny makes cornering very simple. Begin braking, manually downshift to the gear you want for coming out of the turn, and continue on by putting the tranny back in Drive for the small stuff. I personally really like the manually shifted automatic.

I took a defensive driving course about a year and a half ago while in a DoD training course. This course was taught by a contracted group of racing instructors (I'm not sure exactly what company they work for). I thought I knew about driving until we hit the road course... For everyday life with driving in the rain and whatnot ABS is awesome, but it does not come close to holding it's own with Thresh hold braking a non-ABS car. Maybe I'm just not skilled enough with a manual tranny, but I found it much easier to make significantly better lap times with the Auto over the Manual on the courses with tons of turns. (Plus it was much easier to control the car going through the turns while being able to maintain both hands on the wheel.) And the auto we were driving wasn't even a Manumatic.

Well, like I said, I am by know means an expert on this situation; just two pennies from a newbie. I know I would have never picked the automatic over the manual until I drove a Manumatic.

You nailed it. The two benefits of a paddle shifted transmission--any paddle shifted transmission--is speed and focus. A paddle shifter simply frees you up to concentrate on throttle, brake, steering. Car control. And virtually all paddle shifted transmissions allow you to change gears faster than the time required to push in a clutch pedal, row a gear, and release the clutch pedal. And don't forget to add in the time it takes to take your hand off the wheel and reach for that shifter handle. It's just another example of computers enhancing man's capability. Superhuman.
That visceral sensation of manually yanking back and forth on a stick is powerful and undeniable. I love it too. Then feet from my desk are two paddle shifted autos, one Richmond 6, one T-56 and two Harley Davidsons. Out in the parking lot is a paddle shifted dual-clutch Audi. I enjoy them all. Shifting the Richmond 6 or T56 is like reaching down into the transmission and grabbing the shift forks.
But it can be hard to admit that as amateur drivers, manually changing gears has its drawbacks. And it's not just shift time. Consider power loss during coupling interrupt. And don't forget that occasional missed shift or non shift due to hesitation or confusion. But all that gets washed away by the visceral sensation of manually changing gears--espcially on a message board. After seven years of making and selling paddle shifters and transmission controllers, I've heard it all. And I take it in stride.

To me it sounds (and looks) like this: "Man, I'm keepping mu typewriterr. No computerised word processor forr mee. Ever!! When I push the keys on my yypewriter, I feel each letter's arms swing forward snd mechanically thwack the paper. And then it smaks back home. What a feelingg. I feel connected to te paper. Typewriters fprever! Wprd peocessors are for girlz and handicaped people. Typewriters forever.

That analogy sounds pretty silly, but it provides some perspective. Desktop computers and word processing software killed the typewriter. Paddle shifters are simple input devices--not unlike the keyboard or mouse in front of you. It's a tool connected to a computer. And a computer is a device that simplifies or multiplies our abilities as humans. Once you get past that notion, you might see yourself entering a corner faster, shifting without hesitation and focusing on the perfect line. I do. Paddle shifters are fun. It's just a different kind of fun.

[Steve Chryssos]

Just curious if anybody knows about Mastershift's new paddle shift set up. I think it was debuted at Sema for the "manual fanatics". Although the clutch pedal is not deleted for those who strive on the " 3 pedal way or no way" it does eliminate the manual thrashing gears through the console and putting them up at the wheel. Any thoughts? I heard it may be released some time in January. I personally like the idea of the paddle shifted auto (attributing I guess getting older or getting lazier) and twist machines product is right up there against todays auto technology, but I already have a manual 6 speed and debating on going opposite.
Dave

Disclaimer: Twist Machine provides paddle shifters for Mastershift.

No other company has made more progress towards adapting mechatronic manual technology for hot rods. And it's been a long road. Mastershift has spent years refining the process. Mechatronic manuals have been around since the late 80's (in racing) For OE applications, where every car that rolls off the assembly line is identical, the technology has been perfected. But in the world of hot rods, every car is unique. Making a product that can be adapted to a wide range of applications is the challenge. Adaptation is the key word. Mastershift has done it. And I think the price is reasonable. Big progress has been made in just the last six months. If the Mastershift system interests you, give them a call. Be prepared to spend some time discussing how the system works and how it installs to see if it fits your needs.

[nvr2fst]

Disclaimer: Twist Machine provides paddle shifters for Mastershift.

No other company has made more progress towards adapting mechatronic manual technology for hot rods. And it's been a long road. Mastershift has spent years refining the process. Mechatronic manuals have been around since the late 80's (in racing) For OE applications, where every car that rolls off the assembly line is identical, the technology has been perfected. But in the world of hot rods, every car is unique. Making a product that can be adapted to a wide range of applications is the challenge. Adaptation is the key word. Mastershift has done it. And I think the price is reasonable. Big progress has been made in just the last six months. If the Mastershift system interests you, give them a call. Be prepared to spend some time discussing how the system works and how it installs to see if it fits your needs.

Steve,
Thanks for your input on my Nov. post. I have contacted them since then and have reviewed the info they sent me on mechanics of operation, installation and trouble shooting issues they have had in the past. I was just a little leary after seeing a certain mustang not perform very well through the mastershift unit, but rumor has it that the driver was not used to or prepared for this shifting operation. Yes, I agree the cost is reasonable. Right now Im waiting on some info from them on there harness.
Thanks again,
Dave

[Steve Chryssos]

.....I was just a little leary after seeing a certain mustang not perform very well through the mastershift unit, but rumor has it that the driver was not used to or prepared for this shifting operation. .....

And think about that car's engine. A twice blown small block has a less than predictable power curve. It's a moving target as far as calibration is concerned. A runaway freight train. If you're seriously considering a mechatronic manual, keep outside variables to a minimum. A torquey, predictable engine with a wide flat power curve and the right final drive ratio will go a long way.

That might blow your mind a little. Gotta equate shift time to rpm and power band. A 500 rpm window for shift time is fine. If the engine spins right to redline that window becomes critical. When a human misses a shift, or shifts too slow, the human says "Oops, my bad. Let's go to Starbucks and get a couple of double shot latte's". When an expensive computer performs in the exact same way, the human says "You #@$% piece of $%$#, I want my money back!"

An SMG BMW shifted faster than 99.9% of its human owners, but the system was criticized, nonetheless, for not shifting quick enough.

I always enjoy talking about this stuff. Sorry for blabbering.

[nvr2fst]

Thanks Steve,
I appreciate the feedback and trust me I dont feel your blabbering.
Your expertise in this field weather it be auto or manual is great knowledge and I always look forward to reading posts that you chime in on.
Looking back about 3 yrs ago when I was thinking about redoing the camaro, my thoughts were simple upgrades and a repaint until I came across this forum about 2yrs ago. Dam u Lateral G LOL
Thanks again Steve,
Dave

[Steve Chryssos]

Does this thread have some legs or what? I am adding video so that people can see how this stuff works.

Strap on your helmet and crank those speakers. Listen for the engine braking, and watch the gauges. 12 o' clock positios are 80mph and 5K rpm. What you are seeing here is the 4L65RR manumatic. It's a collaborative effort between Bowler Transmissions, Compushift transmission control, Twist/Pro Torque MuscleDrive torque converters and Twist Machine Shrifter® paddle shifter.

Probably the most interesting and most overlooked distinction between a manual and an automatic is that the auto provides torque multiplication. So take note of how the car rockets off corners.
Thanks for looking

0H0kfXSNvps

[Jr]

Steve,
Great video!

I got some questions for:
How big is your steering wheel? 350mm?

Why do you have the compushift mounted in your car? What are you monitoring?

How big is the stall in your car?

Are you running a trans cooler? If so, what trans cooler, and where did you mount it?

[Steve Chryssos]

Yup--350mm. Works best in muscle cars. I've tried 330mm and smaller. They look like the steering wheel equivalent of a shrunken head.

Converter is our 9.5" 2500 stall MuscleDrive™ billet converter. Super tight and locked up at low revs, but listen to it scream at WOT!!! The torque multiplication provides a slingshot effect that can't be achieved with a manual (or OE style 11-12" converter). Nothing like it. We have comprehensive answers to questions that the other guys haven't even asked yet.

A few of our customer store the Compushift display/tuner in the glove compartment. But most mount it line of sight. First and foremost, you can tune on the fly without having a laptop sliding around on the passenger seat or taking your eyes off the road. No need for a helper. From there, the Compushift display shows gear position. In automatic mode, gear display shows 1, 2, 3, 4--4, 3, 2, 1. In paddle shift mode, it shows S1, S2, S3, S4--S4, S3, S2, S1. That's the primary reason to mount it line of sight. And it doesn't rotate with the steering wheel. The display/tuner also shows lock up status, trans temp, vehicle speed, line pressure, rpm. It even has a built in accelerometer. So you can do simulated rear wheel dyno runs as well as inline accelerative/braking g-loads. Again: Nothing like it.

At Gingerman, The Bowler 4L65RR never exceeded 205 degrees F. Which is great considering that the Redline Oil Synthetic D4 is rated to almost 400 degrees F. Vinnie's car is now testing Redline Oil Synthetic D6 which is stable past 400 degrees F. D6 is also thinner, so shifts happen faster. I can't believe how quick the shifts are in Vinnie's 4L80E. Bowler has perfected the blueprinting and calibration process for manumatics. Shifts are quick, but never harsh. Best way to describe it is "Oomph!"--a quick tug.

[Steve Chryssos]

Oops! Forgot about the cooler: Mine is a 11" by 5" secured to the front of the core support with simple hardware store flat stock. My car has a B&M super cooler as listed on our website HERE (http://twistmachine.com/shopping/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4&products_id=24), but any good plate style cooler will work.

[69pro-touring]

About how quick and responsive are the shifts?
Basically what I'm asking for is, a Ferrari gearbox with paddle shifters supposedly will shift is milliseconds (not that I've driven one to know how quick that feels), but low end sports cars with manumatic modes I've driven feel like they take hours to shift when youre waiting for them at high rpms.
I'm assuming it is somewhere in between but just concerned about the lag between hitting the paddle and the actual shift

[Sandbagger]

In the vid are you shifting it or is the trans in drive ? I couldnt see much engine braking .

Lots of track left out of T9 btw ...
I really wish I could have seen more than just a little vid .
Why does the vid skip just out of T5 differant laps ,??
I saw 6200 rpm on the front straight , :wow: couldnt detect a downshift into turn one .

[JamesJ]

Probably the most interesting and most overlooked distinction between a manual and an automatic is that the auto provides torque multiplication. So take note of how the car rockets off corners.


Every transmission provides torque multiplication until you are at 1 to 1

[GregWeld]

Every transmission provides torque multiplication until you are at 1 to 1

Actually -- what he is referring to is the term "torque multiplication" of the TORQUE CONVERTER.... and some folks then get that in their mind that the automatic must multiply the torque somehow... which, as you pointed out... is wrong. Torque multiplication occurs only when referring to the torque converter and some do this better than others depending on the design of various components making up the converter.

What the feeling is of the automatic vs the manual is the stall of the converter allowing the engine to flash to peak torque which the manual won't do. Whether there is a plus or minus in that is debatable I think... since there is lag induced during the flash period which may or may not be made up for.

[GregWeld]

About how quick and responsive are the shifts?
Basically what I'm asking for is, a Ferrari gearbox with paddle shifters supposedly will shift is milliseconds (not that I've driven one to know how quick that feels)


Big difference -- Ferrari is a multi clutch (meaning anything more than ONE) and a manual transmission.... It is NOT a paddle shifted AUTOMATIC.

[Roadrage David]

Here is the awnser to all your prairs. T56 with pedal shifter or stick. you stil use the clutch, but that dont matter this is the bisenis http://www.mastershift.com/ chek video,s ..

[Steve Chryssos]

Actually, torque multiplication occurs anytime that there is a significant difference in rpm between a torque converter's primary elements: The Turbine and the Pump. Picture a given volume of fluid being fed into the Turbine (output side) when the Pump (engine side) is spinning at the same speed. Now picture that the pump is feeding an additional volume of fluid when the engine is spinning at a much greater speed that the input shaft of the trans. As long as that speed differential is great torque multiplication is in the house. The 3rd element, the stator, changes the direction of fluid.

Of course, maximum torque multiplication occurs at the start of a drag race where the vehicle is not moving with the engine at maximum stall speed, but rest assured that if there is a 2000 rpm differential like a downshift at the beginning of a straight, torque multiplication exists.

So the three pedal car is better at diving into turns, as the car benefits from true engine braking. Coming out of that same turn and onto a straight, an otherwise equivalent 2 pedal car can perform more work across the subsequent straight because of torque multiplication. That assumes that a downshift is made coming onto the straight to induce the rpm difference. The 3 pedal car completes it's shifts going into the corner, the 2 pedal car saves a 3-2 downshift for coming onto the straight.

Visualized as an data acq graph across that given straight:
The 3 pedal car: Will show a rising rate diagonal graph.
The 2 pedal car: Will show a near vertical spike followed by a flatter curve near torque peak across the length of that straight.

'Hope that helps....

[blazer1970]

I went with the T56 Magnum (Had a turbo 400) for my 68 Firebird. Im only making 625hp though.