Sequential Gearboxes.

[PaceCarNut]

Ok, This is my first forum post besides in the new mwmber area, So here goes....
Does anyone make 5 or 6 speeds sequential gearboxes for the sbc and BBC?
I know they are avalible for the Hondas, I use to sell them for Charlie at DC Sports and even though they were BIG coinage 15K they could not be kept in stock anywhere in the country, you guys on the left coast should know, the asians have deep pockets.
Just wondering if they have made there way into our PT type power plants???

[camcojb]

I know I was considering one after discussing with Tyler at ATS. I believe it was an Aston Martin that has a full sequential 6 speed and it's a T56! Pricing was the issue for sure, going to be $15K+ to do it, and the parts were tough to get.


Jody

[Musclerodz]

You mean this? :D
http://zfdoc.com/paddle%20shift%2010.JPG
http://zfdoc.com/paddle%20shift%2004.JPG

[PaceCarNut]

If you never driven a car with a sequential gearbox, You do not what your missing. It is an amazing piece of machinary. we have installed them in 1 acura integra GSR and in an Alex Zanardi limited addition NSX they are kind of like egyption cotton sheets, once you have had the best, you will never go back and HOLY COW, what a differance... and fun to.

[XcYZ]

So how does it work?

[Musclerodz]

The one pictured is a paddle shifted T56. Gearbox is Aston Martin, paddle shift stuff from Ferrari.

Mike

[Musclerodz]

So how does it work?
I am not the expert here by anymeans but I think the electonics matches rpm for the next gear before the spit second shifts that are almost non detectable.

Mike

[Steve Chryssos]

I am not the expert here by anymeans but I think the electonics matches rpm for the next gear before the spit second shifts that are almost non detectable.

Mike

Yes but those electronics are mapped for one particular application: A specific combination of engine output and vehicle parameters. The big question is: What happens when you install that OE "Aston Martin" hardware and calibration to an entirely different application? Vehicle weight, final drive ratio, power curve, redline, rear tire diameter, etc.

Without modifying the calibration, I can see the potential for blown clutches--or worse blown engines.
/Steevo

[PaceCarNut]

I just went to www.quaifeamerica.com and I now see the offer two differant gearboxes for v8 v10 &v12 RWD applacations. The are also the mechanical style, Like we used in the Hondas.
Scott, here is a like that will tell you how the guts of one works, Its not 100% correct, but you will get the idea. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/sequential-gearbox.htm
It still looks like its gonna set you back about 18K-20K by the time your done.
Also, Take a look at there differentials, they are also pretty sweet. I will take some pics of the one I have for a ford 9". I have had this thing for about 7 or 8 years sitting on the self in the garage, ordered for a customer and they never came and pick it up, lucky I did get a deposit.

[XcYZ]

Damn, that's pretty cheap! lol

[jonny51]

18 -20k I guess I better go order one.

[camcojb]

18 -20k I guess I better go order one.

YOU can afford it!

Jody

[jonny51]

YOU can afford it!

Jody

I was thinking you were going to buy me a belated birthday gift.Seriously though I wouldnt spend 20k on a transmission even if i could afford it which I can't. :D

[race-rodz]

so my question is.... with the quaife 15g 5/6 speed trans.... with the super close gears, would clutch usage be optional.... like a bike? blurp the throttle for up/down shifting?

i think i need one of these..... scrap prices are way up.... i just might have $13k worth of crap i can haul off. i can always donate blood....take cans back...stand on the street corner...etc

[PaceCarNut]

That is correct, The clutch is only used when taking off. With the 5 or 6 spd, You could dyno the engine, find its peak power curves and build this geabox to fit those RPM's..
Really if you think about it, I wonder if we are looking at these gearboxes the same way most of us look at a set of golf clubs??? 275.00 to 400.00 per driver aka our 20K-50K on the engine) but most of us have a 30.00 putter in our bags!! And we use the putter more then the driver!!! :_paranoid (our trans are most important pieces of equipment to our cars. Catch my drift?
I cant justify the 15k to 20k price for a street driven car, But if there was a circuit for these things and some money to be made, I would be all over one. orif they could get the cost to under 10k. It just seems funny that some of the guys that have 100k to 150k in there cars, dont have one. (Maybe i will sell a pace car to buy one??? NOT :eek:

[race-rodz]

no... i actually want it for for race use.... my project is more like a track whore shop truck than a "normal" pt car.... i absolutely must have a manual trans, even though i did think long and hard about a paddle shiffted auto... but decided against it for a few reasons. i really like the idea of 6 speeds to get to 1:1...... i kinda gave up road racing bikes and started my truck project.... im seeing lots of pros with the seq gearbox... and the only "major" downfall being the price..... but i just sold my track bike....so im 3/4 there :unibrow:

[race-rodz]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=1120


that would be the thread for my truck... for those who dont know it

[XcYZ]

When are you going to send me some pics so I can put a webpage together for you? :thumbsup: That's a cool project.

[race-rodz]

well... i have been absolutley hammered with the harley painting thing..... been averaging 1-2/week. but im on my last one... sold most my other money pits (track bike, banshee, etc) so hopefully it will be a full time project here soon... and i will be able to update the pics... only got a few monor things done since the last posts.... 13" brakes, some int tin, sront suspension semi finished up.... btw the new engine choice will be an SB2... hopefully one of these seq gearboxs.

[race-rodz]

ix-neh the 5 spd seq box..... wont hold up to the hp/trq.... besides...what i have of the $13k would better suited to the motor cause.

HOWEVER... i did find this... and the idea of running a bulletproof modded M22 has re entered my head. linky (http://www.renagate.com/info.htm)

[Steve Chryssos]

ix-neh the 5 spd seq box..... wont hold up to the hp/trq.... besides...what i have of the $13k would better suited to the motor cause.

HOWEVER... i did find this... and the idea of running a bulletproof modded M22 has re entered my head. linky (http://www.renagate.com/info.htm)

Now yer talkin!! I see Tex Racing in NC is a dealer. And, ironically, Tex Powell himself has purchased one of my paddle shifters for "some street rod project he's working on". I cautioned that our shifter is not designed to work with manual (or any non-electronic) transmissions. He said don't worry about it, but would not elaborate further. I guess I now know the deal:

-Tex Transmission (plenty strong with with a wide choice of gear ratios)
-Renagate shifter conversion
-Bi-directional linear actuator motor
-Shrifter

But paddle shifter or not, the Renagate deal should cut down shift times and reduce driver error. The big questions are 1) clutch apply (should be standard) 2) if it can work on a 4 speed, can a 5 spd or 6 spd model be far behind?
Very cool. Get on that.
/Steevo

[jannes_z-28]

My absolutely top TV-personality, Jeremy Clarkson at Top Gear, tested an Aston Martin with that gearbox and he 100% disliked it. As it was programmed it never shifted when he wanted it to shift. The computer could delay a downshift for several seconds. Not what you want when you drive hard around acorner.

I think that the problem with these is just the programming, you want smooth shifts when driving normally but crisp hard action when really hitting it. And what do you do when going from 5th directly to 2nd? Counting paddle movements. Or you can do as Ferrari, different buttons for different downshifts.

Even though the coolfactor is high on a gearbox like that I myself like the stick as it is.


Jan

[tjs69]

Please excuse my ignorance but, Is this what the F1 guy's are using ?

[Steve Chryssos]

Well, we are co-mingling a few different issues here:

Sequential Transmissions: Good when shifted by a human, but hard to find one that will handle the abuse of direct, clutchless shifting when installed behind big power. They exist, but they are hard to apply to multi-use applications (drag race, road race and street use)

Mechatronic Transmissions: Doesn't matter if it is sequential or not--uses mechanical engineering, electrical engineering and software engineering to perform shifts. A more mainstream term would be robotics. Works great on an F1 car that operates within limited parameters (road race only) and is operated by a professional race driver (limited failsafes). When applied to the Aston Martin transmission shown above, the programming must account for novice drivers (driver error) and mundane tasks like parallel parking and other low speed maneuvering. Aston Marton does NOT want you to make 5th to 2nd downshifts. If you try, it either waits, or denies the innput altogether.
So the delay experienced by Jeremy Clarkson is due to "failsafe" programming that is designed for novice drivers. Warranty concerns supercede performance capability. And those sophisticated computers? They become downright stupid when faced with mundane tasks like parallel parking.
And as I stated above, the stock algorithm for a 2002 Aston Martin Vantage is most likely useless if applied to a twin turbo 69 Camaro (or Targetmaster 350 equipped 69 Camaro) As such, it would be virtually impossible to develop a production mechatronic solution for the hot rod aftermarket, since there is such a wide range of potential applications.

Are there exceptions? YES! And the exceptions are most likely the future of transmission technology.
1) I recently purchased an Audi A3 DSG. During low speed driving in auto mode, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the DSG and an old school automatic. In fact the salesguy kept calling it an automatic even though there are traditional gears inside the case. It's that good. Why? because it utilizes two clutches. And in manual mode--during performance driving, it shifts just like Michael Shumachers F1 car--with lightning quick shifts (where applicable) and no rpm drop between shifts. It's said that DSG will obsolete CVT almost immediately and single clutch mechatronic manuals (on street cars) shortly thereafter.
2) Manumatics. The Mercedez 7G has a stout looking lock-up clutch in the torque converter. So, when locked up and in manual mode (even in 1st gear), you'd have a hard time telling it apart from a true "direct drive" manual. And torque converters are more forgiving that true clutch assemblies. I'm dying to try out a new 6L80E.

The line has become very blurry indeed.
/Steevo

[race-rodz]

im still looking... i really like the idea of the seq gearbox/no clutch action.... human controlled deal. i also dont want overdrive... final drive of 1:1 in the trans is what im looking for. i did look at the t-rex site after i posted the link... and it got me thinkin about jerico and some of the other "clutchless" shifting transmissions. i know i have seen the "straight-cut gear/dogring" upgrade for road race M22's someplace.... then throw one of these renegate shifters to it... and im just about there.(sounds simple enough...riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight)

im tryin to figure out to get the cake and eat it too.... my budget was meant for getting the project finished up.... meaning basically motor and trans.... i cant see blowing it all on just the trans.

[Steve Chryssos]

Attached is a diagram of mechatronics fundamentals.

I hear you on the sequential. Be sure to evaluate functionality in terms of downshifting as well as low speed, part throttle shifting. The Renagate shifter is not a true sequential solution, so I'm sure it ain't clutchless. It's more like a Verti-Gate--which has been around for years (i.e. current Pro Stock)
/Steevo

[67Sally]

2) if it can work on a 4 speed, can a 5 spd or 6 spd model be far behind?
Very cool. Get on that.
/Steevo

I talked to Renagate and asked them about 5 and 6 speed applications and they did not have anything in the works at that time. I will dig up the emails they sent to me.
W.

[Steve Chryssos]

That's a bummer. Also I downloaded the "installation" pdf which has lots of great pix. I'm not impressed with the "swivel block" shift linkage. And the mount for the shift arm is a single shear design. It should be mounted in a c-channel as they've done with Hurst Competition Plus shifters since--what?--the early 70's?
/Steevo

[andrewb70]

Holinger Engineering

http://www.holinger.com.au/index.html

Andrew

[Steve Chryssos]

Now that's a thing of beauty.
/Steevo

[Steve Chryssos]

And more searching turned up an HKS Sequential that seems to be made by Hollinger.
http://www.peak-performance.net/images/stories/racers/hks-sequential-transweb.jpg

[DCreations]

That is a cool trans. So with a trans like that you don't need to use a clutch? or just for take off?


Steve could you use a paddle shifter with something like that?

[Steve Chryssos]

The inline shift pattern means that you absolutely could. Simple robotics could be built to control shift changes. And a simple micro controller could be built for downshift prevention based on vehicle speed/rpm inputs. As long as you are not trying to electronically control both shifting annd clutch operation clutch (as with trying to adapt the afrementioned Aston Martin system), the project becomes way more realistic--Challenging and expensive, but realistic.
/Steevo

[DCreations]

That's good news in my world!!!! :D