dual m/c and balance bar

[GM Muscle]

ok so i have a stock 69 camaro braking system, 4 wheel power drum brakes.
i have a set of 4 wheel disc off of a 2002 trans am and the adapter plates for the fronts to bolt them up to my stock drum hub. of course i know i have to turn the drum down to fit the rotor.
My motor is not going to have enough vaccuum to run the power booster right and i dont really like the looks fo all the lines and stuff on the hydro boost setup, so im opting for a manual daul master cylinder and balance bar setup. im guessing 7/8front and 1"rear? what should i go with using the discs? im trying to keep this car budget oriented so any input would help. ive seen a few cnc setups for like 300 or so but if i can just go to smilies and pick up some wilwood m/c's im only 1 mile away. thanks in advance.

[turbo67camaro]

How big the MC's are, depends on the piston area of the calipers.

To calculate piston area, use the following equation: πr2 (3.14159 x radius squared.)

If using calipers with more than one piston, calculate the area for each piston, and then add the areas together. If the caliper has pistons on both sides of the rotor, disregard one side.

Caliper Piston Area (in2) - Master Cylinder Bore Diameter (in)
Up to 3.6 - 5/8
3.6 to 4.2 - 7/10
4.2 to 4.5 - 3/4
4.5 to 4.7 - 13/16
4.7 to 5.5 - 7/8
5.5 to 5.9 - 15/16
5.9 to 6.3 - 1
6.3 to 7.6 - max 1⅛

Often, the piston diameter is known and specified in millimeters.

Example: 45mm rear single piston calipers. So:

45mm diameter = 22.5mm radius
22.5 millimeters radius = 0.885826772 inches radius
Piston Area = 3.14159 * 0.885826772 inches * 0.885826772 inches = 2.465 in2

Thus, a 5/8" bore MC is called for in this example.

[GM Muscle]

wow. thanks man

[Apogee]

In addition to turbo67camaro's information, you'll want to consider the brake balance that you want to build into your system. Normally you would size the MC bore for the front caliper (twin 43mm in this case), then the rear and then adjust the rear bore (typically increase in order to reduce pressure) to set the baseline balance of the system. This should take your ride height, weight distribution, tires, etc into consideration as well as the range of adjustability of the balance beam setup for optimal performance, but a 65/35 or 70/30 split is fairly typical.

A balance bar system generates a linear relationship between front and rear brake pressure based on the bore sizes of the MC's. There is no "proportioning" involved unless you install a proportioing valve, adjustable or otherwise, into the rear system. The only adjustment is on the beam to shift your balance front to back or vice versa.

It's actually a bit more involved than that, so I would strongly suggest contacting Tilton and discussing your application with them as they seem to have the most helpful technical support IMHO, nothing against Wilwood or CNC Brake.

Tobin
KORE3

[GM Muscle]

Ok guys im ready to do this. Does any one recommend a specific brand of m/c and or pedal? anyone use any combination on theirs that worked out good?

[Payton King]

I am running a twin set up on my car. I use tilton masters and if you are willing to cut up your stock set up now I can give you pics of mine. the easier way is to use a tilton pedal set up as well, but you may have to alter to pedals. if you want more info let me know.

[XLexusTech]

Turbo 67 thanks for the post great info right there

[GM Muscle]

I am running a twin set up on my car. I use tilton masters and if you are willing to cut up your stock set up now I can give you pics of mine. the easier way is to use a tilton pedal set up as well, but you may have to alter to pedals. if you want more info let me know.


let me know what i need to do. :thumbsup:

[Payton King]

My work computer. I will post them monday.

More than one way to do this. Get on the Tilton site and they have a pedal system with clutch and brake. To use that one you may need to cut into the cowl a small amount not enough to effect your wipers. Looking at the drawing on their site, I think it will fit without doing that. Because the way the toe kick comes out you may need to alter the pedals which is easy to do.

You could also do like I did and alter the stock pedals. I had Jim Pettigrew do mine and I am sure he could do one for you as well.

The third option is use a remote ballance set-up where you leave your stock pedals, mount the remote system on the firewall. Ron DeRaad did that on his 68 with the twin turbo ford motor and Tyler was working on a similar deal.

By far the easiest thing to do is just run the car the way it came from the factory and use a Wilwood tandem master 7/8 bore. It will stop great and bolt right up. The stock pedal ratio in the top hole is 6 to 1. A little more ratio by drilling a new hole a little higher up will make the pedal easier to push.

[GM Muscle]

id like to see some pics of your setup if you have any

[Payton King]

Since we are basing it off of the stock pedals. We need to drop the pivot point of the brake pedal down to get a straight shot at the masters. We could not move the masters up because of the cowl. The stock point is used for the clutch pedal and Jim made a new point for the brakes. Sounds funky but works like a charm. I am running 6:1 pedal ratio, 5/8 on front and 3/4 on the rear. Not standing on it but with a good amount of pressure, I developed 1200 psi on the front and 1100 psi on the back. Once I get the bias adjusted I thing the leg pressure is going to be the best I have had. 1200 psi is the max reccommended on a Wilwood caliper, so after I get the bias right and if I am generating too much pressure, I will size the masters up one step. Lots of trial and error but I am close to getting it nailed down.

[syborg tt]

Great thread guys

[Payton King]

If you call Wilwood they will tell you to get a 7/8's for a manual system. That is correct if you are using a tandem master. It will not work with duals and a ballance bar. Been there and tried that.

You are pushing 2 masters so you will need to split the leg pressure by 2. I have run a number of calculators on this and trial and error testing...how I arrived where I am now.

I have 1 inch, 7/8, 3/4 and 5/8 masters now in my possesion. LOL

With a 6:1 to 6.2:1 ratio, you are looking at 5/8 or 3/4 on front. Size the rear one step bigger( all of this depending on your calipers. If you are using SL6's and SL4's in the rear I am right on). That will get you close on the bias and use the ballance bar to tune from there.

My piston size is 1.62, 1.12, 1.12 on the front and 1.75, 1.75 on the rear with 13 inch rotors.

[GM Muscle]

thanks man. great pics. im just using the pbr calipers in the front and the factory late gm rears. ill pull down my factory pedal and stuff when i get the chance and see if i cant get it all mocked up. once again thanks for the pics and info

how far down would you say you had to move it? just guessing?

and do you have anyway that i could contact jim p?

[Payton King]

Caliper.

The distance he moved the clutch down had to do with getting a straight shot at the masters so the master push rod was not moving at an angle and loosing mechanical advatage. On mine it is about 1 to 1.5, I did not measure but it is close.

You never said if you were running a stock type clutch, hydrolic or if you car was an automatic. Anyway I am sure Jim would be happy to get you set up but I still think if I had it to do over I would get the Tilton pedals to work

Take a look here: http://www.tiltonracing.com/content.php?page=list2&id=4&m=b

I think it would be far easier to do this than the route I took. Take a look at the drawings as it has measurements. You will need to cut holes in your firewall, but you will need to do that anyway. If you do this you will need to remove the stock brace/pedal locator and fab up something else.

If you like mine I will get you Jim's number

[carbuff]

but I still think if I had it to do over I would get the Tilton pedals to work

Take a look here: http://www.tiltonracing.com/content.php?page=list2&id=4&m=b

I think it would be far easier to do this than the route I took. Take a look at the drawings as it has measurements. You will need to cut holes in your firewall, but you will need to do that anyway. If you do this you will need to remove the stock brace/pedal locator and fab up something else.


Is there anyone here that has actually done something like this: installed an aftermarket set of Tilton / Wilwood / etc pedals into their project, specifically a 1st or 2nd gen Camaro?

I would think this would be a nice way to go also, but I have no idea how one would go about mounting the pedals in a safe/secure enough way under the dash area. Other than the steering column mount, I don't remember any significant bracing to work from. And you can't simply mount them to the firewall, there would be entirely too much flex.

So I'm curious as to what people have for ideas on mounting a set of aftermarket pedals like this...

Thoughts?

[Payton King]

pretty stout piece. Just messing with mine I would imagine that you would need to take the stock brace out and fab up your mounting system and bracing. Should not be that difficult. Where it gets tight is the clutch and brake pedal drop straight down so the column would go in between those. It will be tight but it will work. Not sure how far over it is and what kind of room you have for the gas pedal but Matt made it work.

Matt Jones from AME did this on his 69 Camaro. There is a thread over at www.pro-touring.com that is beind discussed right now. I think Matt is going to post up some pics.

[GM Muscle]

i may be going down that road since jim never called me back...

[Payton King]

message. That is not like him not to return a call.

[GM Muscle]

i talked to him initially and he said he was going to call me back. i just figured maybe he was on vacation with spring break goin on and stuff