who gets credit?

[bill amsley]

if an artist draws a car, and someone else builds it who gets credit for the design? i see a lot of cars w/artist renderings i always wonder who to toast the artist or the builder?

[ccracin]

I think you have to toast both. I can only speak for my situation. The artist we are working with is extremely talented not only at design, but listening as well. (Ben Hermance) The reason I say both is he truly uses what the customer likes/wants (listening) and puts that together along with his touches to come up with a final product. So in alot of cases it is a team effort. I am sure there are times when someone say here's the car I have, go to it. Ben also does cars on his own. You can see some on this sight. These designs are his alone, but thay all have to be built. You then have to look at execution of the design. This is a team effort as well. A builder can only truly reproduce the design if they are talented enough and if the design is capable of being built. Alot can be put on paper that will be dang near impossible to make work in the real world. So in the end for a complete car, rendering to finished piece I think it is truly a team effort. JMO :thumbsup:

By the way I used Ben as an example because we are working with him. All the artists on this board are extremely talented. Maybe some of them will give you some input.

Later,

[Flash]

I have seen many different versions of who gets the credit. If Chip Foose draws the car he gets the credit but I have seen a car drawn by Chip after the car was in full bare metal, who gets the credit then? The builder or the artist? Ten points is you can name the car in question. I don't believe in a credit as to who owns the rights to the car by just drawing something, but then again I'm just a photographer.

[Steve1968LS2]

Just because an artist did a rendering doesn't mean they designed the car. They could have just followed the styling cues of the car's owner.

However, if the artist did design the car then they should get the credit. Or at least share the credit.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Steve is exactly correct. Very rarely does a artist doing my rendering do the design. Most times when I contact a artist, I / my customer have a clear vision of what we / he wants and I beat on the artist until I get it, LOL! This is not to say I do not listen to the artist input. I may tell the artist to give me some different ideas for a graphic, color combos, after I give my own ideas, then look at their twist on the idea. But I would not consider that "designing" if I use ideas from the artist either.

With that said, I am not oppsed to building something of the artist design, I just have not had the situation / customer to allow it to happen yet. But I have seen quite a few designs I would love to build, Just need to find the right customer!

[Spiffav8]

I get the credit, but only when things go wrong....oh wait that's called blame. :lol:

[Vegas69]

I had my rendering done to reinforce my vision for the car. That said, now that the car is mostly done exterior wise, I already plan to make a tweak from the rendering.

[mlomaka]

So far, I haven't done a whole lot of renderings, but so far mine have been a colaborative effort. Someone comes to me with an idea, be it how ever specific, but there are usually some holes in it somewhere. My first big project I got after it was already started. The shop knew what they wanted to do with the body. The customer couldn't visualize what the mods would look like, but he knew what motor and suspension he wanted. I helped pull all the ideas together so the customer could make the final decision on direction. I had input on a lot of areas, but that part was mostly already decided on. The interior on the other hand, no one had really thought about. I have also done some paint combos and top colors which vary from "I want this" to "what would you do". In the end, I think it should be a colaborative effort. The artist should listen to the owner and work off their ideas, but really help develope it and get everyone on the same page. I might change, but so far I am not looking for credit, I am just just thankful to be part of the process.

[ironworks]

Does it matter?

The artist is usually the guy who puts everyone on the same map visually and puts in his 2 cents. The builders attempts to make the car look as similar to the rendering depending on the customers budget. The customer OK's and pays for all the work.

The owner paid the bill so he gets the credit. None of it would happen without the CASH. So the owner gets the credit.

Rodger

[kennyd]

the owner .

[Hdesign]

This isn't the first time this issue has been raised and I'm confident it's not the last. It's a great question. Honestly, there is no single answer that is true for every project and every situation.

For example, the Dream Car of the Month is a rare opportunity that allows designers to present their thought process and ultimate vision for a particular vehicle based entirely on "What if...?" You can approach your choice of car from a practical and logical point of view or you can really push it. I typically take the title of the feature literally..."Dream Car" and try some crazy stuff. Opportunities like that are very, very rare. Is everyone going to like everything I do? No but at least you can see I'm not thinking with blinders on or playing it safe just to fit in. That's exactly why I chose a 71 Monte Carlo last time and a 73 Charger the time before. Basically, I put everything on the line. I have 100% risk and 100% credit. If PHR is satisfied by the subject and quality of work, they use it and I am compensated. You could say that they are my client.

For the most part however, I am commissioned by a builder or an owner. I answer to them almost always. They pay me and I value their business greatly. That isn't to say that I'm just a yes-man or a door mat, that's not in my nature anyway. My job is to use my professional training and experience to aid them to make the best decisions, similar to a consultant. I'm as involved as the owner or builder wants me to be from a decision making perspective. I have to read them very quickly. Regardless of what each tells me, I always, always add one or two versions that I'd like to see. They may love it or hate it but I like to be involved to the extent that my client feels comfortable. I would be selling my client short if I didn't offer some input.

As far as credit, I don't keep score. Frankly, I don't care. I'm hired to do the best I can with the budget I've been given and the knowledge of the owner's tastes and goals. As long as my signature stays on the art, I consider it free advertising. They can do whatever they want with it, it's theirs.


I hope this clarifies things from our perspective.

Chad-check's in the mail buddy!:thumbsup:

[tellyv]

How much does it usually cost to have a rendering done? I know it depends on how much time you spend with a customer and how involved the project is, but just a general idea.

[Flash]

It's interesting to here various artists thoughts on this subject. The underlying cause for the question of 'who gets the credit" I think ultimately comes down to who owns the rights to the design and like it or not it's the artist that owns the intellectual right to the rendering, I believe. Credit may put money on the table once but rights can put money on the table for years to come. But then again, I'm just a photographer.

[XcYZ]

It's interesting to here various artists thoughts on this subject. The underlying cause for the question of 'who gets the credit" I think ultimately comes down to who owns the rights to the design and like it or not it's the artist that owns the intellectual right to the rendering, I believe. Credit may put money on the table once but rights can put money on the table for years to come. But then again, I'm just a photographer.

Excellent point, Scott. When I have artwork/renderings created, it's for the purpose of promoting Lateral-g. I have every intention of using it for t-shirts, posters, decals, webpage headers, etc. The issue of who owns the rights was brought up a long time ago by a person who's work is featured here, and as far as I'm concerned, I contracted the artist to bring my ideas to life for that very purpose. The idea that I'd have to pay the artist a royalty fee for every t-shirt, poster, calendar, etc, was not a popular one.

I think anyone that has renderings, illustrations, and/or design work done needs to discuss this point ahead of time.

[tyoneal]

It's interesting to here various artists thoughts on this subject. The underlying cause for the question of 'who gets the credit" I think ultimately comes down to who owns the rights to the design and like it or not it's the artist that owns the intellectual right to the rendering, I believe. Credit may put money on the table once but rights can put money on the table for years to come. But then again, I'm just a photographer.
=======================================
THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS TO BE CONSIDERED.

1) If the photographer/renderer is hired to take or draw or take a picture, the person that owns it is the person who paid for it. (Unless specifically spelled out otherwise) Hence the clauses at many companies, that if an employee creates ANY product while employed with that company, the Company owns 100% of the rights to all your creative endeavors, or some photographers want rights over the images of someone's wedding. I for one would not handle an issue like that under those terms, but that's just me. Another exception to this is a person who is a "Public" person. Their rights concerning their images are greatly diminished.

2) If the photographer/ renderer takes a picture/ draws a picture then they own the rights to their work to a point. First, original Art should allow them them to sell or market it as they see fit. They can sell a copy of that image and retain the writes to that image. However, if the photographer/renderer creates an image of a Camaro or anything else that has been previously Trademarked, copy-written, or Patented (Whether designed or a utility Patent has been granted), they do not own the design, they would own the rights to their "Changes", to the original, or the additional or enhanced use of a product, or in some cases where "Parody", has been used.

GM would still own the, design of the Camaro with the Name as well. "Camaro".

Draw or take a picture of Mickey Mouse and try to sell it without permission from Disney. They are extremely aggressive towards ANY unauthorized use of any of their art work. If you do this, Be sure and Get your wallet out and your Attorney on the line.

3) I have some Patents. When I hire a renderer for an item, I own the rights to that picture. The artist/Engineer was paid for their work. Beyond that they own nothing regarding it.

To sum up, this area of Law is very diverse as different people defend their "Intellectual Rights", with varying levels of aggressiveness.

The best thing I was told is to ALWAYS HIRE A COMPETENT ATTORNEY, spell it ALL out ahead of time, so there are no unintended, "assumptions".

If there is any doubt, communicate with the other party and be courteous and respectful. In many cases that will help you avoid a lot of headache, and it would help establish that you were making a layman's attempt at doing the right thing.

If you have something you intend to possibly make money on, "Put it in Writing" beforehand so everyone is on the same page. Have things reviewed by an attorney beforehand specifically skilled in this aspect of law.

I know there are many many exceptions and variances with different types of intellectual property. This is barely scratching the surface by someone who has limited experience on the subject, and further is NOT an attorney.

It is however a real interesting facet of law.

Thoughts?

Ty

[jannes_z-28]

The idea that I'd have to pay the artist a royalty fee for every t-shirt, poster, calendar, etc, was not a popular one.

I think anyone that has renderings, illustrations, and/or design work done needs to discuss this point ahead of time.


Exactly!

However the royalty fee is something that can be negotiated. If you don't try or mentioning it it will automatically kick in. And go on for a long time.

If you negotiate away the royalty you most certainly has to pay a higher fee for the work. You can make a deal that the artist get royalty for the first n objects you sell or for a limited time. But those deals is two sided, after the time limit you can not use it either.

Look at Elvis, he is the dead person with the highest income in the world. $300 000 000 every year in royalties.

Jan

[Hdesign]

I'm reading about all this stuff right now actually in an extremely boring Art Law book. Ever have trouble sleeping? Read this little gem!

The bottom line is that if you commission the artist, you own the art. The client can do whatever you want with it. The artist has no right to royalties for tshirts or prints produced by the client unless it is laid out and agreed upon in writing.

From what I understand, our signature doesn't have to stay on the piece but I also don't know too many people that were so disappointed in the art that they feel it's necessary to remove it as long as it's tastefully and subtly placed. Beyond that, as the artist, I reserve the right to use the art as a portfolio piece and I always ask permission from the client before I post it on my website. I also give credit to the builder and/or owner if applicable.

This is a completely separate issue from credit for a design. Manufacturers get the credit for the design of the vehicle they produced. There is nothing I can do as a designer or artist to protect my design of modifications to a manufacturer's vehicle. I can protect the original "likeness" or artwork though. "Credit" for a modified vehicle has less of a legal meaning and more of an understood recognition of the work.

[JayR]

All good points and all pretty on the money. People shouldn't hesitate to hire an artist because they're afraid of litigation unless they happen to be slippery characters and anyone in business knows the type I speak of. As said before, if you pay for your artwork, you own it and the rights to it. If you plan to take that image and make a product you plan to mass-produce or sell t-shirts by the thousand at Wal-Mart, you should work that out with your artist in advance but we are in the business of designing people's dream cars so we should expect you to reproduce the image as your vehicle.

And more to the point of this thread; If you hire your designer to figure out what color you want your hood stripes or whether to run Torq-Thrusts or Rallye wheels, you aren't really under any obligation to give him credit in bold type and he probably isn't hanging his hat on that job but when it's something like the Nemesis Mustang Ben designed or the 'Cuda I did a few years ago on the cover of Hot Rod or Camaro I just had on the cover of Chevy Rumble, that owner and builder should give us credit because those cars wouldn't be what they are without our involvement and we have a ton of time invested to make sure those cars look like that even beyond what is invoiced because when a car gets to that level, our hearts are in it and we want to make sure everything we designed looks just right.

Those cars are also good examples of what happens when a client, designer and builder put their heads together and think outside the box to make a statement. It's good to have some strong sense of what you want as a final product but you shouldn't stifle a designer or dictate to him because we do a lot more than put color on paper. We have a lot of design experience and wisdom to share if you let us and can maximize your investment as well as help you properly plan it and probably save you some time and money by showing something on paper before you pay a fabricator or painter to do it only to realize it doesn't look as good as you hoped and pay him to redo it.

[mlomaka]

These are all very good comments. I was just rereading over this and noticed this may have gottin a little off track from what was originally asked. If the question was as "simple" as it was stated, "who gets the credit?", then it would be a matter of team work and who had had what involvement with what. I would also like to clarify a comment I made earlier. When I said I wasn't looking for credit, I meant with the final product. A lot of time, money, talent and craftsmanship goes into every one. I do appreciate credit for a good rendering though, regardless of the amount of input I had.

[Tony@AirRideTech]

Steve is exactly correct. Very rarely does a artist doing my rendering do the design. Most times when I contact a artist, I / my customer have a clear vision of what we / he wants and I beat on the artist until I get it, LOL! This is not to say I do not listen to the artist input. I may tell the artist to give me some different ideas for a graphic, color combos, after I give my own ideas, then look at their twist on the idea.

"That is until your artist is telling you that he will not draw that convertible fire chicken with camo paint and 38" ground hawgs....."