So lets start a 19" / 20" Arguement . I mean discussion!

[ProdigyCustoms]

So over the years there have been some monumental arguments......... Excuse me........... DISSCUSIONS, over tire / wheel diameter and performance. It has been said over and over again that 18s are the maximum diameter for performance, and that 19s, and God forbid 20s, have been labeled "poser" wheels.

But I have to wonder. After just watching the excelent track footage of the new ZR1............

Why 19s and 20s on the New ZR1 Corvette? I wonder how much performance the Corvette team are giving up to "Pose"?

It has been almost 3 years since we started using 19s and 20s poser wheels. I will never forget some of the threads when we put the poser wheels on Project Prodigy and The Billy Goat back in the summer of 2005.

I just wonder if feelings have changed? Or has Chevrolet sacrificed performance for looks? Lets not even mention the Lambos, Ferraris, Vipers, that all use 19s and 20s.

[XcYZ]

Don't forget, the new Camaro will be rolling on 20's, too. :cheers:

[Bowtieracing]

Thank you Frank for bringing this up.. Most of us has "vintage" rides like first and secong gen camaros. And do those 19" and 20" really fit on these cars. Yes offcouse the fit bu just bolting on but do look good and fit for the lovered stance and orginal wheelopenings etc etc ??

I would be intrested of moving 19/20 combo but i am affraid it might look just ridicoulos. 18" look really good for me. 17" too small.

[TravisB]

Doesnt the new cuda/ challenger mopar wear a set of 20's...... as well.


My car will have 19's and 20's :yes:

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

my car wears 18s and 20s... and will be formidable.
:thumbsup:

and also the RS 66 chevelle is sporting 20s, homie.. if i remember correctly it was pretty formidable on the track..

as for an argument.. it doesnt matter.. a poser is a poser wether its 18s 20s or damn 15s... when youre scared to death to drive your ride to its potential. or what you claim as a Gmachine/protouring car..

oh yea btw thanks Frank for hooking up my wheels..

[va72mlibu]

I don't think 19 and 20 are "poseur" but remember that styling is a major reason why OEMs (be they Chevrolet or Lamborghini) do things. How many pure racecars are wearing 20" wheels?

I agree with Venomous. How you drive your car determines your poseurness.

[ironworks]

It probably is not the rim size as it is the height of the car with the bigger wheels. If you design that car with higher spindle centers you can still maintain a low center of gravity, but you do have heavier wheels and bigger brakes to stop them which is more weigh.

just my 1/2 penny of thoughts

[Tom.A]

Ironworks thoughts sound logical to me....but I don't jack about any performance side of the thing. I think I accept them more than say three year's ago. I don't plan to run that big of wheel on my car though. In fact I never would of thought I would own anything with 20" wheels. That changed 2 month's ago when we bought a new family wagon. My friends tease me that I am rollin on dubs or whatever. I just say these are OEM wheels. I feel on the SUV's dubs are now the 22's or 24's which look silly to me.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x82/passperf/denali750.jpg

[ironworks]

We just finished the fab on a 69 camaro that left that had 18's and 19" and it looked really slick. 20's on the back would be to big unless you build your own frame so that it can be dumped. I have 22's on the back of my Old farm truck the C6-57, it looks dumb until you put the rear fenders on to cover up the wheel to almost the lug nuts.

I have found if you set different size wheels under the car at the height you have or can make happen the car will tell you what it wants. It will scream at you when it looks good.

Rodger

[Bowtieracing]

We just finished the fab on a 69 camaro that left that had 18's and 19" and it looked really slick. Rodger


Would it be too much to ask few pics Rodger ?:cheers:

[Bulldog68]

It's all about proportion. If you have a larger vehicle with bigger wheel openings, then larger wheels may fit the look and perform accordingly. If you have a smaller vehicle, then stick to the smaller sizes, or one or two sizes bigger than stock. The "poser" look comes when people overdo it, using wheels a few sizes over what the right proportion should be. Maybe they want the attention, or they think it looks good, who knows. I think it's ridiculous.

As for the Corvette ZR1, the 20/19" wheel package looks just about right, if not just a hair too big. Either way, they seem to perform well based on the numbers/reviews. For the older cars, I prefer nothing bigger than 19" unless the car is a monstrous boat. In that case, larger wheels are fine because you're going more for the stance/look as opposed to handling performance. My 68 Camaro has 17s and my 70 Chevelle will wear 18s, maybe 19s in the rear, nothing bigger. But that's my preference for the compromise between handling and looks.

[jack67rs]

I've had both 18" and 20" on my 67 camaro. I like how the 20"s fill the open wheel well and to be honest, the ride surprised me. I was expecting a harsher ride after riding around in a friends audi with 20"s. No, I don't autocross the car! But that is because the painter went crazy and took the car a few levels above what I was looking to have done. Not complaining about how it turned out!, I just could'nt imagine cone marks down the sides of my car. You'll ALWAYS have people with different opinions on how a car should look or handle. If some people think I'm a poser, so what, people have only said positive things about my car since it has been finished, yet to have someone say "Those 20"s on your car look stupid!". And everyone I've ever taken for a ride have always had one hell of a grin on their face! :D

[notorious1970]

It's all about proportion. If you have a larger vehicle with bigger wheel openings, then larger wheels may fit the look and perform accordingly. If you have a smaller vehicle, then stick to the smaller sizes, or one or two sizes bigger than stock. The "poser" look comes when people overdo it, using wheels a few sizes over what the right proportion should be. Maybe they want the attention, or they think it looks good, who knows. I think it's ridiculous.

Well said. Its all based in my opinion on vehicle size and wheel well dims. Some of the smaller muscle cars look really good with the 18s b/c of their overall size. I would say that 20s on muscle dont look right., with 19s being the largest i would go.

[J2SpeedandCustom]

Good topic. We've put 18's, 19's and 20's on. If your looking to do competitive autocross / road racing, then choose a wheel/tire setup thats more racecar oriented. For road performance I don't think the "WHEEL" size matters at all. I personally don't like to run under a 35 series sidewall on the tire. The ride quality really goes down ALOT!

[jvike]

The ZR-1 has huge brakes, 15.5" Carbon-Ceramic brakes. They need a big rim. Audi also has 20" on their new RS6 with those brakes..

[COYBILT]

Proportion is key here. I am most likely going to put 18x9s in the front of my goat and 20x12s in the back will see how it turns out. The wheel wells are a decent size on the car so it should look correct.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Proportion is key here. I am most likely going to put 18x9s in the front of my goat and 20x12s in the back will see how it turns out. The wheel wells are a decent size on the car so it should look correct.

I know when I did the Billy Goat we test fit a 335 / 30 18 under it and it swallowed it like it was a donut spare. Those 65s need at least 27" tires under the rear, and at least 26s up front. But if you do 27s in the rear, and 26s up front, then you need to look at 19" front rims as the sidewall will be way to large on 18S. To me this is one of the biggest mistakes one can make, have a shorter sidewall on the rear tire then the front.

Here is a pics of a (26") 335 / 30 / 18 under the rear and a (25") 245 / 40 / 17 we just threw under the car to get some ideas. Pushed us right into 19s and 20s

[Alex396ss]

As been said earlier in this thread, it´s all about proportions. Personally, the first thing I want to do is to really fill out the wheel openings, and then you can start playing with wheelinches and tireprofiles. I like a low profile on a pro touring car and then you have to have a big wheel to fill out the opening! I don´t give a damn about posing, I build my cars for myself and don´t care if someone think´s I´m a poser because I´ve got 20"s instead of 18"s.

How many on this board drive their cars so hard, that they would feel an important differance regarding 18"s to 20"s?

Alex

[Bowtieracing]

Sorry for turning this little bit 1gen direction..

What do you think would be optimun wheel size for 69 camaro with minitubs ?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Sorry for turning this little bit 1gen direction..

What do you think would be optimun wheel size for 69 camaro with minitubs ?

Personally, I really like the 345 / 30 / 19 tire on a 12" rim. Right at a full inch taller then a 335 / 30 /18, it fills the wheel well better and still has the same amount of sidewall so it rides and work the same

With a 6" lip and this tire, I think it is the baddest combo.

What do you think?

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1073.jpg

[Bowtieracing]

Frank i love it!

But isnt 345 too wide for 12" wheel ? I never thought this was even an option!! I was stack on 335s! Could i use 12,5" if i roll the fender lip - or ist it just overkill here ?

What would be good pair at front ? You know my secret and the need for 10" wheel...;) :woot:

[ProdigyCustoms]

Frank i love it!

But isnt 345 too wide for 12" wheel ? I never thought this was even an option!! I was stack on 335s! Could i use 12,5" if i roll the fender lip - or ist it just overkill here ?

What would be good pair at front ? You know my secret and the need for 10" wheel...;) :woot:

You cannot run this tire with a larger rim then a 12" and fit it under a mini tub no matter what you do to the lip. Tt that size, adding a 1/2 inch of wheel adds a half inch of section width and quickly make the sidewall to large. I just had to re do a pair of 13" rims that would not fit. I had to have them made into 12s.

As for that tire fitting on a 12" rim, Actually Michelin spec is done with a 12" wheel. Here is the Tire Rack page on Michelin PS2s

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Michelin&model=Pilot+Sport&partnum=43YR9SPORT&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=0


Up front a 285 / 35 / 18 would work and give you a real nice tire height stagger. Tire stagger is important and many screw this up. I cannot stand it when someone puts 18s on the back that are 26" tall, and 17s on the front that are 26" tall! it looks like the front tire is taller then the rear tires! The front tires need to be as much shorter as the rim, so if the rim is a 19 on the rear and a 18 on the front, the tire needs to be a inch shorter, at least!

The rears on this set up at 27.4" on a 19" rim will leave 4.2" of sidewall on the rears, a 26" tire height on the front on a 18" rim will leave a 4" sidewall. I HATE when the front tires have a taller sidewall then the rears, HATE IT! Did I mention I do not like that look?

Also, with this set up, you will have a consistant sidewall buldge that matches nicely from front to rear with a bit more buldge on the rear tires. The rears on this set up having a section width of 13.6" on a 12" rim and leaves a .8 buldge on either side of the rear rim. The front having a 11.3 section on a 10" rim leaves a .65 sidewall buldge on the fronts, which again is the look were going for.

[comp-spec]

Check this site it has all this info
http://www.rims-n-tires.com/rt_specs.jsp
You cannot run this tire with a larger rim then a 12" and fit it under a mini tub no matter what you do to the lip. Tt that size, adding a 1/2 inch of wheel adds a half inch of section width and quickly make the sidewall to large. I just had to re do a pair of 13" rims that would not fit. I had to have them made into 12s.

As for that tire fitting on a 12" rim, Actually Michelin spec is done with a 12" wheel. Here is the Tire Rack page on Michelin PS2s

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Michelin&model=Pilot+Sport&partnum=43YR9SPORT&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=0


Up front a 285 / 35 / 18 would work and give you a real nice tire height stagger. Tire stagger is important and many screw this up. I cannot stand it when someone puts 18s on the back that are 26" tall, and 17s on the front that are 26" tall! it looks like the front tire is taller then the rear tires! The front tires need to be as much shorter as the rim, so if the rim is a 19 on the rear and a 18 on the front, the tire needs to be a inch shorter, at least!

The rears on this set up at 27.4" on a 19" rim will leave 4.2" of sidewall on the rears, a 26" tire height on the front on a 18" rim will leave a 4" sidewall. I HATE when the front tires have a taller sidewall then the rears, HATE IT! Did I mention I do not like that look?

Also, with this set up, you will have a consistant sidewall buldge that matches nicely from front to rear with a bit more buldge on the rear tires. The rears on this set up having a section width of 13.6" on a 12" rim and leaves a .8 buldge on either side of the rear rim. The front having a 11.3 section on a 10" rim leaves a .65 sidewall buldge on the fronts, which again is the look were going for.

[NOVA]

I am planning on some new wheels (hopefully in 08) for my Nova and have thought about the 18/19 combo, are there alot of tire options available for the 19 inch?

a couple people advised me to look into this wisely, I would be looking for a 19X8 maybe 9 inch rim? I have not spent much time looking at tires just yet, just was advised to tread ;) lightly with 19's?

[ProdigyCustoms]

More and more 19s are coming available as more factory cars use them. Just call me when your ready and I can help spec out the sizes with you. You do not have to buy through me to use that service, so do not be affraid to call.

[Tony@AirRideTech]

The biggest reason for the whole "They're poser wheels" is because up until recently, there were hardly any manufacturers that did any competitive wheel and tire in anything larger than 18". I dont think anyone thought about it until Porsche and Viper both went that way. Then it all boils down to weight and mass. By bolting on a set of 20's you were bound to be using heavy wheels and a set of average Z rated tires. Now the manufacturers are stepping up so it just isnt so anymore.:unibrow:

[Jason@Driverz]

You cannot run this tire with a larger rim then a 12" and fit it under a mini tub no matter what you do to the lip. Tt that size, adding a 1/2 inch of wheel adds a half inch of section width and quickly make the sidewall to large. I just had to re do a pair of 13" rims that would not fit. I had to have them made into 12s.

As for that tire fitting on a 12" rim, Actually Michelin spec is done with a 12" wheel. Here is the Tire Rack page on Michelin PS2s

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Michelin&model=Pilot+Sport&partnum=43YR9SPORT&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=0


Up front a 285 / 35 / 18 would work and give you a real nice tire height stagger. Tire stagger is important and many screw this up. I cannot stand it when someone puts 18s on the back that are 26" tall, and 17s on the front that are 26" tall! it looks like the front tire is taller then the rear tires! The front tires need to be as much shorter as the rim, so if the rim is a 19 on the rear and a 18 on the front, the tire needs to be a inch shorter, at least!

The rears on this set up at 27.4" on a 19" rim will leave 4.2" of sidewall on the rears, a 26" tire height on the front on a 18" rim will leave a 4" sidewall. I HATE when the front tires have a taller sidewall then the rears, HATE IT! Did I mention I do not like that look?

Also, with this set up, you will have a consistant sidewall buldge that matches nicely from front to rear with a bit more buldge on the rear tires. The rears on this set up having a section width of 13.6" on a 12" rim and leaves a .8 buldge on either side of the rear rim. The front having a 11.3 section on a 10" rim leaves a .65 sidewall buldge on the fronts, which again is the look were going for.

The industry rule of thumb is that for every 1/2" change in rim width, the tire's section width will correspondingly change by approximately 2/10".

[markss28]

I think if your running in 1/4 then the thickness of your tire is whats going to matter for traction. If on the road course then 19/20 will probably help in the turns due to less tire flex but if you have a little rubberband around your wheel more then likely you will be sliding all over. SO just make sure you balance wheel size with the right amount of tire.

[ProdigyCustoms]

The industry rule of thumb is that for every 1/2" change in rim width, the tire's section width will correspondingly change by approximately 2/10".

From 12" down this is true. But from 12" to 13" on a 335 / 345, the tire move nearly the entire inch. However if you go below 12" to 11.5, the section changes about 1/4". Lived this nightmare, so know all about it unfortunatly, LOL!

[rocketman]

The tiremakers for one are making more 18" and bigger tire size's for one, plus there have 18's and 19's that weight less than a 17" or small wheel. plus the looks of a bigger wheel are much better.

[Bowtieracing]

You cannot run this tire with a larger rim then a 12" and fit it under a mini tub no matter what you do to the lip. Tt that size, adding a 1/2 inch of wheel adds a half inch of section width and quickly make the sidewall to large. I just had to re do a pair of 13" rims that would not fit. I had to have them made into 12s.

As for that tire fitting on a 12" rim, Actually Michelin spec is done with a 12" wheel. Here is the Tire Rack page on Michelin PS2s

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Michelin&model=Pilot+Sport&partnum=43YR9SPORT&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes&place=0


Up front a 285 / 35 / 18 would work and give you a real nice tire height stagger. Tire stagger is important and many screw this up. I cannot stand it when someone puts 18s on the back that are 26" tall, and 17s on the front that are 26" tall! it looks like the front tire is taller then the rear tires! The front tires need to be as much shorter as the rim, so if the rim is a 19 on the rear and a 18 on the front, the tire needs to be a inch shorter, at least!

The rears on this set up at 27.4" on a 19" rim will leave 4.2" of sidewall on the rears, a 26" tire height on the front on a 18" rim will leave a 4" sidewall. I HATE when the front tires have a taller sidewall then the rears, HATE IT! Did I mention I do not like that look?

Also, with this set up, you will have a consistant sidewall buldge that matches nicely from front to rear with a bit more buldge on the rear tires. The rears on this set up having a section width of 13.6" on a 12" rim and leaves a .8 buldge on either side of the rear rim. The front having a 11.3 section on a 10" rim leaves a .65 sidewall buldge on the fronts, which again is the look were going for.


Thank you again Frank for wery professional and understandable reply. This coming really hard to decide what way to go. I had allready made up my mind based on this car :

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/emalikyltti/thebest.jpg

How do think 19" at rear would change the image? Do still get the same stance? I cant live with rake ie. car having nose down. And i do prefer some spring travel at rear too. I am looking for real driver wich i can take on track too.

[Vegas69]

My car that Frank is laying the clear on this week is running the 19/18 stagger with the 345/30/19 27.4" and 255/40/18 26". There were a few reasons I decided on this setup. When I ordered the wheels it was a pretty new deal, I wanted to keep the sidewalls as uniform as possible, and the vette and viper both staggered 19/18 at the time. I went with a coil over set up in the rear to get the car at the proper ride height. You can figure out your sidewall heights by multiplying the apect ratio times the width. 345 x .3 =103.5 255 x .4=102 This gives you a slightly larger sidewall int he rear. I hope to see the photos on my car soon! It's been almost a year since I bought those wheels.:willy: Unfortunately they sat around my previous builders shop and collected dust for a while.

[Bowtieracing]

My car that Frank is laying the clear on this week is running the 19/18 stagger with the 345/30/19 27.4" and 255/40/18 26". There were a few reasons I decided on this setup. When I ordered the wheels it was a pretty new deal, I wanted to keep the sidewalls as uniform as possible, and the vette and viper both staggered 19/18 at the time. I went with a coil over set up in the rear to get the car at the proper ride height. You can figure out your sidewall heights by multiplying the apect ratio times the width. 345 x .3 =103.5 255 x .4=102 This gives you a slightly larger sidewall int he rear. I hope to see the photos on my car soon! It's been almost a year since I bought those wheels.:willy: Unfortunately they sat around my previous builders shop and collected dust for a while.

Thanks Vegas, i really look forward to see your car. This 18/19" is totally new idea for me so i cant wait to see some pics!:cheers:

[Payton King]

I am runnng stock C6 rim and tire package, but I would keep the sizes is I ever changed rims...it just fits the car in my opinion.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Thank you again Frank for wery professional and understandable reply. This coming really hard to decide what way to go. I had allready made up my mind based on this car :

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/emalikyltti/thebest.jpg

How do think 19" at rear would change the image? Do still get the same stance? I cant live with rake ie. car having nose down. And i do prefer some spring travel at rear too. I am looking for real driver wich i can take on track too.

That is my customer Vance Wheelers car. Those are 18s

[Bowtieracing]

That is my customer Vance Wheelers car. Those are 18s


I know , and Vances camaro has perfect stance ! I mean PERFECT:woot:

[ProdigyCustoms]

We have Lisa's car set up to ride so low I do not think we get a true perspective on how the rear tires work, I am going to get some pictures of Lisa's car raised up to the same height as Vance car for some pictures as most cars ride about that ride height. I think it would be good for rear tire size comparisons. I will try to do that later today.

[NOVA]

perfect stance ! I mean PERFECT:woot:

Stance is everything,period. oh and correct wheel offsets!:thumbsup:

[TravisB]

We have Lisa's car set up to ride so low I do not think we get a true perspective on how the rear tires work, I am going to get some pictures of Lisa's car raised up to the same height as Vance car for some pictures as most cars ride about that ride height. I think it would be good for rear tire size comparisons. I will try to do that later today.


that black car appears to sit lower the firebird......

[ProdigyCustoms]

I think the FIrebird is 1 inch lower. These are 19s on the Firebird, so the rim is taller, but we are completely cupping the rims and the black car appears to be almost 2"s away from cupping the rims.

I am thinking it is the litterly the difference between black and white!

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u212/ProdigyCustoms/DSC_1070.jpg


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/emalikyltti/thebest.jpg