"The Bet" Suspension Thread - 75 BBC Camaro

[DDY RCKT]

Just in case any of you haven't read the original thread, the details of the bet are outlined here: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=12083

So, having read the scenario, you know what must be done. The M3 must be destroyed. Bascially, those things are amazing in the turns. I'll easily be able to make up plenty of time on the straights with at least twice his power.

But I don't want the Camaro to be a slouch rolling the curves.

So my options are to replace the factory suspension bits with newer racer parts, or replace the subframe at a cost of $4000-$7000, depending on who's subframe I choose. Martz is very nice, and $4K, DSE and Jim Meyer have very nice setups for the $7K range.

So now I open the floor up the the more experienced members here for suggestions on what path to take to get the Camaro in shape to repeat the outcome of WWII?

[novanutcase]

Posted this in your original thread:

You might want to hit up alot of the subframe companies to sponsor you with one of their subs. This would be an excellent way for them to demonstrate how good their product really is, not just claims and skewed magazine articles, but an average joe that, with company ABC's product in it, smoked one of the best handling production cars out their! There's a certain company with 3 letters in their name that are starting to make your year subs and rear suspensions. They are one of the best companies out their!
Same deal with the other parts(Brakes, tires, etc.)
This, and the $50 paint job(LOL!), just might bring you in on budget!

Good Luck!

John

[NOT A TA]

If you're seriously gonna go for it with a 12,000.00 budget I'd suggest you keep it simple. Build a car like my Firebird but lighter and with more power. Mine cost about 10-11 thou several years back.

Tires!
The widest stickiest tires you can get away with! If you can mini tub the rear within budget do it. I run 315 35 17's and 275 40 17's without tubs but the 315 rears won't fit on Camaro's without mini tubbing. I run Yokohama AO 32's but there's other tires out there also. Light weight 17" wheels without blowing the budget.

Weight!
Trunk mount the battery in a cheap box to the inside (pass side if they run clockwise there). Replace the front bumper with a cheap fiberglass one for the "race"(I have one on my 74 Camaro and it only weighs a couple lbs)and use light weight mounts for it instead of the shocks. The weight of the battery, bumper, and bumper mounts is cantilevered in front of the front wheels and makes a huge difference. Ditch the inner fenderwells(for the race) and air cond. system if it has them now. The lightweight front bumper isn't a safe idea on the street so keep the orig to put back on for daily driving. Install a factory front spoiler and keep the rear one to add downforce. The rear Camaro one is actually better than the TA one I use on my Firebird.

Suspension
Hotchkis kit (orig designed for 71 Camaro) includes springs sways tie rod adjusters etc and get the offset upper control arm shafts from them. They also have Bilsteins to match if you want or there's some adjustable ones available to aid with tuning. Global west upper and lower control arm Del-A-Lum bushings unless your budget allows buying the tubular arms with the bushings already in them. Subframe connectors(weld in if you're confident with a welder) Solid or Poly body mounts.

By purchasing a suspension kit you eliminate the guesswork of what works well with what. You also eliminate the learning/tuning suspension problems. just get the front end aligned to the specs they give you and you're done. Suspension engineers have already done all the development and testing! It won't stick like a racecar but should give you enough cornering capability be good enough in the corners to use the power in the straights to win.

Engine/trans/rear
I don't think you need to blow the budget on a 6 speed for the "race", you really only use a couple gears on most tracks so if you gear the rear accordingly then a 3 or 4 speed is all ya need for this kind of race and budget. I use a 2.72 or a 2.41 10 bolt posi rear for road tracks with a 3 speed auto so I can hit 150 MPH in the straights without killing the motor. It's not drag racing from a dead stop so you won't need those 3.73's and 4.10 kind of gears. Sounds like you'll have the BBC so you'll have plenty of horsepower even naturally aspirated with no power adders.

Brakes
The 2nd gen cars have pretty good spindles and brakes so for your "race" just get a good set of semi metallic pads and shoes (bedded in properly on freshly machined seasoned rotors and drums) and make sure the system is optimized with a new master, hardlines, and the flexibles. Use the Ford heavy Duty DOT3 fluid which holds up as well as "race" fluids at much less $. Install cooling ducts to the front rotors if you can but it's not necessary for your "race".

If you haven't been around that track with a really good driver to teach you the line then sign up with N.A.S.A. or another group for the HPDE events and then practice that line. Seat time in your car is going to be important because you're going to run against an experienced guy that knows the line and is familiar with his cars limits already.
GOOD LUCK!!!

[deuce_454]

first of all, the 472 should be a screamer if its done right... (427 crank in a 502) what are the specs on that engine??? (heads, cam, CR. intake, etc?)

and you need to do the build with the sole pupose of handling, once you get into billet this, and pretty that.. your budget is gone.. if you havent bought the t-56 yet then it is worth mentioning that a tko transmission, or even a super t-10 will get the same job done for less money.. id get the OD though if you intend on driving it on the street,

while i agree on the subframe, especially if you can get some sponsor... but you could also give marcus a call at SC&C (look in the left vendor coloum), he is very well versed on suspension tuning and not only the "replace everything"-kind... you will definately need solid frame mounts and a subframe connector... and i am prety sure you will need to do somthing semi-drastic about the rear suspension..

other than that... start removing weight... EVERYWHRE.. get a scale and start going nuts.. there is alot of weighy to be removed in the interior, and every pound lost is time gained arrount the track..

ebay and racingjunk can save you alot of money and used racing seats, seatbelts, brake calipers, steering wheels gauges and so on, are every bit as functional as new ones... just cheaper... leaving more money to get the important parts (pm me your address with regards to the headers btw)

also find out what you need in the way of rollcage to run on your track

by the way if for some reason you are you willing to add fender flares? if you are then my suggestion on the wheels would be a set of used 16 inch T/A race wheels, 12 and 13 x 16, the slicks for them are prety cheap, and T/A Front Tire Size 325/35R16 and T/A Rear Tire Size 335/45R16 should give you the grip to run circles arround a bmw
http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?form_prod_id=298,57,363_1663&action=product

[DDY RCKT]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys! Much more info to research, which I really appreciate!!!

I already have the T56. It was a trade up for parts I had for my Corvette, that I don't need anymore. Basically, I've got the 472, the car, and the T56 and I'm only $400 into the budget so far. I'm working on a website to get everything in one place, so when that's done I'll let everyone know!!

I'll have to work with my friend on the rules regarding what I can and cannot run (fiber bumper, etc.) just to see what's "allowable" in the comparison of street car to street car. Thanks so much for the help, now I have more questions to ask.

Thankfully, I've got a lot more track time than my opponent. Unfortunately, the main component of my track time has been in my MINI, which is a slightly different ballgame. But I've been on this track a bunch with NASA events and riding with other friends who do it regularly.

So now I'm off to research everything you've just told me! I'll come back with more questions soon, I'm sure!

:bow:

[MarkM66]

What track will you be racing at?

[DDY RCKT]

What track will you be racing at?

Virginia International Raceway, VIR.

[ArisESQ]

I'll have to work with my friend on the rules regarding what I can and cannot run (fiber bumper, etc.) just to see what's "allowable" in the comparison of street car to street car. Thanks so much for the help, now I have more questions to ask.

:bow:


maybe you should just leave out mentioning fiberglass bumper and that type of stuff when you talk to your friend... just ask him if you can run slicks...

[deuce_454]

its like talking to a cop or a woman... dont say anything! dont ask anything untill you find out what you are being acused for... dont ask him what you can run... just agree on road legal tires.. and show up on DOT slicks...

and what ever you do... dont tell him any specifics about the build, that way he is liable to start buying and installing BMW track suspension goodies...

[DDY RCKT]

I think the front is going to get treated to a rebuild on the stock subframe. A lot of people are getting good performance out of that, it seems. Now I just need to figure out who all has front kits available, and where it fits in the budget.

The rear, hoever, is a different story. Here's what I'm thinking, tell me what you think about it.

Go with a kit like the Hotchkis TVS kit, and reinforce that with a Fay's 2 Watts Link. I have to see if the Watts link will work with lowering leaf springs. I don't see why not, but it's good to check on that sort of thing.

This is about the same price, give or take, as the Martz 4-link rear. I'm not sure what's the better bang for the buck. I like the looks of the Martz rear 4-link, but I see more people complaining than praising Martz, and that makes me wary.

[deuce_454]

I love the idea of a Fays2 watts... i am not sure what the right rear suspension setup is though.. i think you will need some kind of over or under rider tractionbars... (Im getting a fays 2 watts through SC&C that marcus had developed for g-bodys... he is a fays2 dealer so give him a call)

if it were me building sosthing like that on a budget i would put in some stiff leaf bushings (aluminum perhaps), some stiff shackles or rear sliders.. and make some under rider traction bars possibly out of some top-bars from a tractor (cheapest way to get adjustable rod-ends in a decent size) somthing like this:
http://www.americanpony.com/store/graphics/00000001/5/0291.jpg
its a poor mans 4 link that uses the front part of the leaf as the top link

(Im getting one through SC&C that marcus had developed for g-bodys, and he is a fays2 dealer so give him a call)

[Jimjim]

One of the biggest problems with Camaros for Road Racing is body flex. You should stiffen up the body with sub frame connecters, a roll bar, Poly body and suspension bushings, etc. If you're going to build a Canyon Carver (We built these all the way back in the 60's) you're going to need a strong frame to build off first....Jim PS these mods are relativly inexpensive really, theres lots of used stuff floating around.

[deuce_454]

x2 to what jimjil said.. except, bolting or welding in a subframe connector only to use poly body mounts .. whats that about ?!? .. solid all the way !!.. and tie into the rockers if possible,

[deuce_454]

here si a pre-engineered truck arm kit for your project... http://www.hotrodstohell.net/truckarm/truckarm_camaro/f_body_truckarm.htm

[DDY RCKT]

here si a pre-engineered truck arm kit for your project... http://www.hotrodstohell.net/truckarm/truckarm_camaro/f_body_truckarm.htm

I'm thinking that may be the way to go, but I need to figure out how much re-engineering I'd need to make it fit. The Gen 1 kit requires new or modified floor pans, from what I understand. For ease of intallation, the Watts link/sport leaf springs or the Martz 4-link are tops, but is the truck arm suspension better enough that it's worth the extra $400? The floor pans are toast, btw, and need replaced anyway, so maybe...just maybe it's well worth it.

[Jimjim]

As some of you know my S10 truck has been mildly modded suspension wise with the addition of an LS1 Vette motor. I'm reminding people of this because I have a neighbor (Don) who owns an M3 with wider tires, mild suspension mods and who knows (same problem, big mouth). Anyway I'm telling him of this project and Don says "Ain't now way any American POS can" well you get the gist. Bottom line is theres a twisty long road out in Tattanal County that people have been know to slightly drive above the posted limits :rolleyes: . My truck destroyed him in the curves and of course the straights. I'm telling you this to let you know that you don't have to spend a lot of money to outdo most sports cars, (exceptions are ferrari etc.). Theres lots of just mild mods you can do without breaking the bank. I only spent about $9500 on mine including the engine to upgrade the truck.....Jim PS, Don don't like me anymore:D

[DDY RCKT]

As some of you know my S10 truck has been mildly modded suspension wise with the addition of an LS1 Vette motor. I'm reminding people of this because I have a neighbor (Don) who owns an M3 with wider tires, mild suspension mods and who knows (same problem, big mouth). Anyway I'm telling him of this project and Don says "Ain't now way any American POS can" well you get the gist. Bottom line is theres a twisty long road out in Tattanal County that people have been know to slightly drive above the posted limits :rolleyes: . My truck destroyed him in the curves and of course the straights. I'm telling you this to let you know that you don't have to spend a lot of money to outdo most sports cars, (exceptions are ferrari etc.). Theres lots of just mild mods you can do without breaking the bank. I only spent about $9500 on mine including the engine to upgrade the truck.....Jim PS, Don don't like me anymore:D

Well, you aren't too far. We can bring you and him up at the same time as me and my friend go to the track, and see what's what. :thumbsup: :unibrow:

[Jimjim]

Wouldnt it be fun to trash some supposedly high dollar sports cars with an old Camaro and a pickup truck.:lol: :lateral: ....Jim

[DDY RCKT]

Wouldnt it be fun to trash some supposedly high dollar sports cars with an old Camaro and a pickup truck.:lol: :lateral: ....Jim

Bringin the :lateral: to the people! :bow:


:lol:

[gt1guy]

but is the truck arm suspension better enough that it's worth the extra $400?

Um, actually truckarm suspensions are not even worth 400 bucks. It's a crap design. It's also mandated by NASCAR. They don't run it because they want to, they run it because they have to. Given the choice, nobody would run a truckarm suspension in NASCAR. And if the NASCAR boys didn't use it, that would make..............lets see............................absolutely nobody using a truckarm suspension in a racing application. Kind of takes the wind out of that sail doesn't it.

Kevin

[DDY RCKT]

Wow, there's really no middle ground on truck arms, is there? Either people love it or hate it. Strange.

[gt1guy]

I would think most people that have installed the kits, and say it's great, were replacing the stock 30+ year old worn out, sagging leaf, blown out shock suspension. At that point, anything is a vast improvement. But, for a suspension to run on road courses, it's at the very bottom of the list. A properly built leafspring set up, with a panhard bar, is much more capable than a truckarm.

Kevin

[DDY RCKT]

I'm going to spend a significant amount of time this weekend with a couple of old road race car designers/builders. It'll be interesting to see what they come up with for a suspension. I have a feeling the Camaro project is going to have something very interesting developed as a one off for her. These guys are really good at what they do, so we'll see. I'll be sure to let you all know what they think!

[moorepwr]

its like talking to a cop or a woman... dont say anything! dont ask anything untill you find out what you are being acused for... dont ask him what you can run... just agree on road legal tires.. and show up on DOT slicks...

and what ever you do... dont tell him any specifics about the build, that way he is liable to start buying and installing BMW track suspension goodies...

LOL! I'm the guy and I'll spot the fiberglass a mile away :-D DOT racing tires would be out too. He needs to be able to drive it to and from work to qualify and that's like 65 miles, with his so in the passenger seat.

I want him to pull it off. I'll be helping him. I won't be paying him. And the deal was basically my car as I got it with the BFG G-Force Sport KDW tires in stock sizes.

I know this takes a lot of the fun out of it, but I have my own fish to fry: My 1969 Camaro:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/moorepwr/1969%20Camaro/P1010684_sm.jpg

Question for the crowd: How hard will adapting the 2004-2007 GTO IRS be, and how well will it work? Between DDY RCKT and myself, we'll figure out the mounting. My Camaro is nothing special, just a base Camaro with V8, deluxe interior, and 12-bolt. The GTO and Camaro are be similar weights; the Camaro will eventually get LS2/4L60E power too.

The first piece of information is that my quicky measurement on widths is that the 12-bolt that's in my Camaro is about 58" wide flange to flange, and that's similar to the width of the IRS from the GTO.

[bucks69]

OH SNAP!!!! He is onto your little scheme!!!!!! LOL

[deuce_454]

Dang.. busted!

wr2 the IRS.. i have helped install a jag IRS on a 67 camaro, its not on the road yet... but it wasnt too hard.. if you should decide against the GTO shoot me a PM and ill send you some sketches...

and wellcome to the site

[stonebreaker]

Pre-fabbed kits cost bucks. Try these sites and do it yourself:

http://www.millikenresearch.com/books.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~whshope/
http://ubmachine.com

[AllSpeedAndy]

I can say from my expierence....call Tony at air ride technologies!!!

I will say at first when building Rogue I was skepticle on all I read, and heard about their stuff...however. First test drive and I was IMPRESSED!!
first off, just the smoothest ride in a muscle car I have ever been in.
second, responsive...man just un-real, a few miles in to it I got a grip on things, and started cranking on it....on the street by far the best stuff you put under a car! On goodyear eagle f1 run flats...this thing would just turn I couldn't believe the performance....i could emagine the track:unibrow:

This stuff seems to work great...and as a package you get all you need.
I'm pretty sure that Phillym5, (who owns a modded '02 m3, lots of susp. work)
wouldn't want to take the same wager against Rogue...of course the only problem with that car is the over abundance of power, she can get away fast!

I'll second the stiffening needed...box that thing up!! solid mounts, threw floor connectors, moly cage, and get the center of gravity as low as possible...and don't think the big block will hinder you much with right set up,
(and possibly alum. heads if not already on it)

Not to step any toes...there are some very good set ups out there and mentioned here...this is just my exper. and opinion.

thanks.

[Daz]

Subscribed !

[Silver69Camaro]

I guess I don't see what the big deal is. Here's why:

My daily driver is a E46 330i with the ZHP package. That includes most of the M-sport goodies except mine has the 5-speed auto (very nice tranny, BTW...). Also has 225/40R18 on front, 255/30R18 on back, which are fairly soft Pilot Sport Cup tires. While it doesn't have a huge amount of power (runs mid 14's in the quarter), it handles and feels very well. It's basically as close to an M3 as you can get without paying the M3 price tag. M3's have lots more power, but the suspensions are very close.

My '69 has our GT Sport Subframe and had fiberglass leafs (changing to something else...). 245/40R18 up front, 275/40R18 in back. 52/48 weight distribution, 2950lbs dry, stock LS1 (with headers), T56, no subframe connectors or cage.

Here's my comparisons between the two cars:
1. The BMW has EXCELLENT steering feel. Most steering systems engineers will tell you the BMW is the benchmark for feedback. When the tires start to slip, you'll feel it and have sufficient time to react. My Camaro did not have this luxury at first, but now that I've reduced the flow rate of the LS1 PS pump, it feels like a race-oriented BMW.

2. The BMW rides better, but rolls more in the corners. I'm very sure the bimmer can turn over .90g, but the Camaro is much more like a track car. Very flat on corners, but still soaks up bumps and is a joy to drive on long trips.

3. The Camaro has much more bite in the turns, and is incredible for the wear rating of the tires (300, BFG KD IIs). The Bimmer is close, but not quite.

4. The Bimmer responds much better to tire pressure changes. Probably because of the weight balance (it's 50/50 or 49/50, somewhere around there). I've found 36psi cold works best on all four corners for balanced handling. Anyway, the Camaro is happy with a wide range of pressures (about 34psi +/- 2psi, so 32-36psi works well). Makes it easier for tuning.

Anyway, so in summary the Camaro feels much more like a race car than the bimmer. A M3 will close this gap somewhat, but I feel the performance of the two vehicles is so close it would be up to the driver on which car is faster. The race may go for the M3 because bimmers are notorious for making a novice driver go fast. If both drivers are good, then it would be a close race!

If I upped the spring rate to 650lbs/in, increase roll stiffness by 15%, lower by 1", and added some sticky DOT tires, it would be untouchable by a stock M3. And these are all changes I can do in a couple hours...

[Rick Dorion]

Thanks, Matt.

HMMM - what's the something else you changed to?

[Silver69Camaro]

HMMM - what's the something else you changed to?

You'll see.