Famous last words...

[DDY RCKT]

"It's a bet!"

:willy:

This is about how the conversation went down:

Buddy: "I love muscle cars, man, but they can't hang with my [97 E36] M3 on the track. Not for the money, at least."

Me: "That's total crap. I bet I could build up a sexy muscle car that could destroy that German turd of your for less than you paid for it!" (I like his M, but I gotta give him crap about it.)

Buddy: "You really think so? Well, what are you willing to bet?"

Me: "I bet I can build up good old American Iron to run a faster road course lap than you in your M. If I can't beat you, you can have the car. But if I win, you have to pay half the build total, and I keep the car."

Buddy: "Ok, but I've always wanted a 2nd Gen Camaro. Try to make that beat the M3 and it's a deal."

Me: "Ok! It's a Bet!"

Ok, so I paraphrased a little, but the context is there. Ok, 2nd Gen Camaro it is. Given that I am a big fan of the Transformers movie, and it happens to have a 2nd Gen Camaro in it, we're going with that car.

Enter Project BumbleBeast. It's lame, I know, but I needed a name. :unibrow:

The challenge is to replicate the look of the Transformers 1976 Camaro, as closely as possible to provide track ready performance, with a cap of $12K for the entire project.

So far, we're on track. I got the Camaro, a 1975 Model with a missing fender, no engine, and minor rust that I can fix. Total cost: $400

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/samuraiwill/CAEVQN8F.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/samuraiwill/CA0HMZW9.jpg

I traded some stockpiled parts for a complete T56 setup. I'll need to figure out the mounting and hydraulics, of course, but with your help, I think we can do it!

I also have a complete running 472 BBC that was donated to the cause.

So far I have the car and I have an engine and transmission that should easily be able to give me track worthy performance. I'll need to get a bigger compressor so I can do the paint, otherwise I doubt I'll come in under budget. So I'll be learning to paint cars, too. Not a bad skill to learn, I think.

And now I turn to you, my friends of the road course, for help in making a list of parts to complete the project. Keep in mind what I'm trying to accomplish. I need to beat a stock 1997 M3 around a road course. This car has 250 HP, legendary handling, and will be driven by an above average driver. I've got a 472 ci Big Block Chevy, 6 gears, and a much heavier car that was not designed to run a road course.

Me, I'm 28, I'm a Physicist for the DoD, I've been doing my own car work since I could lift a 1/2" wrench, I've designed aftermarket performance parts for a few car companies in my off time, I can weld (but not that well, need to work on that) and I hate losing bets.

And I love a challenge! :captain:

[HRBS]

That 472 BB will hurt in weight transfer.
I'd go with something like an alum. headed small block etc.
That extra 200lbs on the front wont help in cornering one bit.
Good thing is, you've came to the right place and will find alot of answers here.

[DDY RCKT]

That 472 BB will hurt in weight transfer.
I'd go with something like an alum. headed small block etc.
That extra 265lbs on the front wont help in cornering one bit.
Good thing is, you've came to the right place and will find alot of answers here.

I thought about that. I may end up selling the BBC for something else. But it was free, so it helps the budget. If I go with an aftermarket front subframe, which is likely, many of them are lighter than the stock unit. Martz claims ~200 lbs lighter, which does offset the weight somewhat for the front, but enough? I do not know.

I found this forum by accident, and it seems to be the kind of place I need to hang out more.

[XcYZ]

Awesome first post, welcome aboard. :thumbsup:

Was there anything said in your agreement about tires? Can you run slicks? :unibrow:

[DDY RCKT]

Awesome first post, welcome aboard. :thumbsup:

Was there anything said in your agreement about tires? Can you run slicks? :unibrow:

Actually....technically....I think I can..... :evil:

[XcYZ]

I'd start with the best tires/slicks that you can run and build the car around that... Make it light and make it stick.

[DDY RCKT]

I'd start with the best tires/slicks that you can run and build the car around that... Make it light and make it stick.

Anyone think I can mount the T56 in the rear like a 'Vette? :lol:

I need the car to be streetable. That was another detail I left out. I need ot be able to drive it to work, like he does his M.

[va72mlibu]

Dude, I am TOTALLY down to help out on this project. Where are you in Richmond?

[DDY RCKT]

Dude, I am TOTALLY down to help out on this project. Where are you in Richmond?

There ya go! There's the attitude I like to hear! I live out in Mechanicsville, man!

[DHARROD]

To be clear ... all you have to do is show up with that car and beat him? It doesn't have to look good (at least not at race time)? it only has to function... right? If so you shouldn't worry about paint, body work, interior – in fact you should strip the car as much as possible - even if he said it has to be close to stock weight .. you want to put the weight in the right places. I assume he gave you some cap on the build cost (what is your budget)?. I'd put the money in the drive-train, suspension and tires; skip the cosmetics. After you win and recoup half the build cost .. then finish up.

Also - I'll assume you'll take the time to go drive the course you'll be on (if you haven't already). If your just starting in track racing you may want to gets some instruction in some live situations.

... Also I do agree a good set of tires is a must/priority.

[va72mlibu]

There ya go! There's the attitude I like to hear! I live out in Mechanicsville, man!
I live just off the Glenside exit off 64. I'm quite serious about helping out, let me know.

[DDY RCKT]

To be clear ... all you have to do is show up with that car and beat him? It doesn't have to look good (at least not at race time)? it only has to function... right? If so you shouldn't worry about paint, body work, interior – in fact you should strip the car as much as possible - even if he said it has to be close to stock weight .. you want to put the weight in the right places. I assume he gave you some cap on the build cost (what is your budget)?. I'd put the money in the drive-train, suspension and tires; skip the cosmetics. After you win and recoup half the build cost .. then finish up.

Also - I'll assume you'll take the time to go drive the course you'll be on (if you haven't already). If your just starting in track racing you may want to gets some instruction in some live situations.

... Also I do agree a good set of tires is a must/priority.

It's gotta be a streetable, daily drivable car. So really, being a beater is kinda out of the question. Body work has to be done, no rust holes, etc. Paint is a nice to have, but not necessary I think. However, a man's gotta learn sometime, right? Has to be comfortable and drivable, essentially like his M, street to track.

I'll be running DOT slicks, probably. The build total has to be $12K or under. I can barter and sell off my stockpile of parts to augment the funds.

It'll be at VIR. I've been on the course multiple times, so I'm decently familiar with it. I'm no pro driver, but I know the course.

[DDY RCKT]

I live just off the Glenside exit off 64. I'm quite serious about helping out, let me know.

That's not far at all! You're hired! I hope you work for beer and Mt. Dew! :lol:

Can you weld body panels? Paint? Figure out how to adapt a push style LS1 hydraulic clutch to an old BBC?

[RedRyder]

Wow does this sound exciting. Subscribed!!

[va72mlibu]

Can you weld body panels? Paint? Figure out how to adapt a push style LS1 hydraulic clutch to an old BBC?
No, no, and no...but I can correctly identify an alternator on 4 out of 7 attempts. And lift heavy stuff.

[DDY RCKT]

No, no, and no...but I can correctly identify an alternator on 4 out of 7 attempts. And lift heavy stuff.

All those answers are acceptable. But the most important question is...

Do you want to learn?

[DDY RCKT]

Wow does this sound exciting. Subscribed!!

:D

There will be a new thread in the projects page once I start getting pictures, and get the car in the garage. I'll let everyone know!

[DDY RCKT]

No, no, and no...but I can correctly identify an alternator on 4 out of 7 attempts. And lift heavy stuff.

Wait, how'd you get an LS7 Malibu and not know how to do any of that?!

[monza]

Killer thread .... good luck and kick his asss!
D

[awr68]

Wait, how'd you get an LS7 Malibu and not know how to do any of that?!

Sometimes entering contests pays off! Optima rebuilt the car for him a year ago...you could say he is a very lucky guy!!

[DDY RCKT]

Sometimes entering contests pays off! Optima rebuilt the car for him a year ago...you could say he is a very lucky guy!!

That's incredible!

So it'll be a good thing to have him help me? Maybe some of that luck will rub off! :bow:

[DDY RCKT]

Killer thread .... good luck and kick his asss!
D

Thanks! I aim to!

[DDY RCKT]

:evil:

How big do I need the turbo's to be for a 472 or 502 BBC.

:evil:

[va72mlibu]

All those answers are acceptable. But the most important question is...

Do you want to learn?
Well, I bought MY car to learn on then luck kinda stepped in, so yes.

[DDY RCKT]

Well, I bought MY car to learn on then luck kinda stepped in, so yes.

That's cool. It'll be a good opportunity for you, cuz if you screw it up, well, it's not your car. :lol:

[deuce_454]

awesome first post... like it was said.. keep it simple, light and buisness looking.. take a look at nelson racings 2.gen, its flat green and still awesome looking..

there are many dollars to be saved buying used nascar stuff on ebay, race brakes, spindles steering components and so on... the BBC with aluminum heads might not be perfect weight wise, but the Hp will definately giv eyou an edge, especially if you have some decent straights on the track.. just set it as far rearward as possible

if there is anything i can do to help, let me know..

just off the top of my head i only have a pair of BBC long tube headers to donate to the cause... but let me know if you are interested

[va72mlibu]

Is there a time limit for completion? Does your BBC have iron heads?

[DDY RCKT]

awesome first post... like it was said.. keep it simple, light and buisness looking.. take a look at nelson racings 2.gen, its flat green and still awesome looking..

there are many dollars to be saved buying used nascar stuff on ebay, race brakes, spindles steering components and so on... the BBC with aluminum heads might not be perfect weight wise, but the Hp will definately giv eyou an edge, especially if you have some decent straights on the track.. just set it as far rearward as possible

if there is anything i can do to help, let me know..

just off the top of my head i only have a pair of BBC long tube headers to donate to the cause... but let me know if you are interested

I have no headers, so these would be very welcome!

Also, since I'm not that up on NASCAR stuff on ebay, if you could point me in the right direction to some links, I'd really appreciate it! :bow:

[DDY RCKT]

Is there a time limit for completion? Does your BBC have iron heads?

Not really. I've got a year, year and a half or so. I travel a lot for work, so working on th eproject will come in spurts. He works here, too, so he gets the schedule issues.

I dunno. I need to go get it next weekend.

[novanutcase]

You might want to hit up alot of the subframe companies to sponsor you with one of their subs. This would be an excellent way for them to demonstrate how good their product really is, not just claims and skewed magazine articles, but an average joe that, with company ABC's product in it, smoked one of the best handling production cars out their! There's a certain company with 3 letters in their name that are starting to make your year subs and rear suspensions. They are one of the best companies out their!
Same deal with the other parts(Brakes, tires, etc.)
This, and the $50 paint job(LOL!), just might bring you in on budget!

Good Luck!

John

[DDY RCKT]

You might want to hit up alot of the subframe companies to sponsor you with one of their subs. This would be an excellent way for them to demonstrate how good their product really is, not just claims and skewed magazine articles, but an average joe that, with company ABC's product in it, smoked one of the best handling production cars out their! There's a certain company with 3 letters in their name that are starting to make your year subs and rear suspensions. They are one of the best companies out their!
Same deal with the other parts(Brakes, tires, etc.)
This, and the $50 paint job(LOL!), just might bring you in on budget!

Good Luck!

John

:lol: So you're thinking rustoleum and a roller, eh? :willy:

That particluar subframe is one of my favorites. The Jim Meyer unit is also very very pretty.

[mazspeed]

I just saw this thread. I love it, but that M3 is a great handling car. I would go with a used ls1-2 if you can find one. That big block is going to kill you on that budget. The Martz subframe is light, but very flimsy, not a good subframe. You might go with DSE's subframe as it's a very good product, get some steel wheels with some R888's. His M3 cost 60k plus, what is your budget on this car?

[DDY RCKT]

Nah, his M cost him $12K. He bought it used last year, it's a 97.

I still think I can win on the track. I mean, he's got a great handling car, but that puny 2.5L engine with 250 HP shouldn't be all that hard to destroy. It's not an E46 333 HP machine.

[novanutcase]

Nah, his M cost him $12K. He bought it used last year, it's a 97.

I still think I can win on the track. I mean, he's got a great handling car, but that puny 2.5L engine with 250 HP shouldn't be all that hard to destroy. It's not an E46 333 HP machine.

Yeah but unless there are a lot of straights he's gonna kill you in the corners! Especially if he has some seat time! Can you try and use the stock sub and maybe do the Guldstrand mod? Can you do the Guldstrand mod on 3rd gens? Maybe some UCA's and spindles that can give you better geometry along with more camber.

Try and center as much of the mass as you can. Trying to set up a 'vette transaxle in your car will probably take you over your budget. I would opt for a good used LS1. New heads and a cam. 5 speed. Stiffer springs and adjustable shocks so you can dial it in. PHB or Watts? Truck Arm?

John

[va72mlibu]

When this project gets done, I think we need to make it a :lateral: event and show up in force. In the unlikely event DDY ROCKET's Camaro comes up short, I'm sure somebody else can represent!

[DDY RCKT]

When this project gets done, I think we need to make it a :lateral: event and show up in force. In the unlikely event DDY ROCKET's Camaro comes up short, I'm sure somebody else can represent!

:lol:

Awesome!

Though there ain't no way I'm letting that M3 beat me. Just not going to happen! However, the more American Muscle that can show up and beat on him, the better!

:lateral:

[novanutcase]

We can do "Shake and Bake" like in Talladega Nights!:rofl:

John

[va72mlibu]

We can do "Shake and Bake" like in Talladega Nights!:rofl: John
But we may need little baby Jesus's help.

[wiedemab]

Aftermarket Sub-Frame - I think this one piece alone will help to blow your budget out the water. I would try to stick with the stock subframe and talk to someone about upgrades to it - ie: DSE, SC&C. ATS makes spindles for the 2nd gens too. You are also going to want sub-frame connectors.

I think I'm P.C. here cuz these are all site sponsors - if not edit out.

http://detroitspeed.com/

http://www.scandc.com/faqs.htm

http://www.t56kit.com/

I've seen some cars with leaf spring rears perform very well, depending on budget you could probably get a set of leaf springs to work well for you.

Oh - get some good Shocks!

Just my opinion, but the weight savings from an LS series engine or just a well built small block w/ aluminum heads would help more than the $7K you could easily spend on an aftermarket sub-frame. Try to pick up some fiberglass body panels - ie: hood, decklid. ---Weight Savings

I know you got the car cheap at $400, but it won't take long to spend $12K. Even if you paint it yourself you could have well over $1,000 in materials.

Just don't shoot your wad too early!!!!!!!!!!

I look forward to following this thread/build. Good luck and Godspeed!

[zbugger]

Hey man, welcome to the site. I have a '77 that I'm trying to build to do the same thing. If you need any info, I'm here to help. I'd also hit up the guys at www.nastyz28.com for as much info as you can get. Most of your money may be going into suspension/wheels/tires, so I'd think about selling the big block for a small block or LSx motor. Remeber, second gens are actually better handling cars than most people give them credit for.

[DDY RCKT]

No love for the BBC! :willy:

[Payton King]

VIR is a long track. I know they run a short version as well. The long one will work to your advantage.

I would ditch the big block as well. 7 or 8 miles to the gallon as apposed to 20 for the LS Motor...and the LS will make the same HP.

You never said much about the BBC. Does it need a rebuild? I am assuming it is a steel head motor?

From a budget standpoint, if you do not need to rebuild the BBC you might as well use it. Adding the 6 speed is easy. Use the stock sub and opt for upgraded control arms and stick with the leafs on the rear with different bushings. You should be able to pick up a trans am rear end with factory disc brakes and sway bar pretty cheap. I think they are 8.5 10 bolts with a gear raito of 3.31 and posi. Run the stock brakes front and rear with a really good set of pads and fab up some cooling ducts.

Just like everyone else said. You are going to blow through $12,000 pretty quick. If you had more money to spend the recs would be a lot different.

[HAULNSS]

This sounds like a cool project. Coming from a guy that runs road courses in a big four door Impala SS, you should be able to pull this off. :thumbsup:

Just a few things to consider.

-- C5 front brakes -- pretty cheap for parts, minimal fab work. (Probably get some donated from the Vette racer guys)
-- Herb Adams suspension stuff? Didn't he make some great 2nd gen cars back in the day (before my time)?
-- 2nd gen WS6 Firebirds had a factory disc rear, like stated earlier.
-- I think Z28 and WS6 cars may have a faster ratio steering box?
-- Plan for oil and power steering coolers.
-- Possible LT1 swap? Might be cheaper than the LSx based stuff. A mild cam, good tune, and headers should get 340-ish rwhp.

I'd look into keeping the stock front subframe (for $$ reasons) and put in good subframe connectors and a rollbar or cage. That should stiffen things up pretty good.

Good luck,
Randy

[deuce_454]

i think that a stage 2 front end from SC&C on a stock subframe is your best bet... tie it on with solid mounts and subframe conectors..

with regards to the engine, you are propably better off selling the BBC and investing in a LSx engine... most power for your money is propably a 6.0 with L92 heads, a big cam like a TSP, MS4 and a single-plane+carb... that should put you well into the 500-550 rwhp. that way you are still able to use OEM bellhousing and ls7 clutch, keeping cost down...

new f-body long tube headers are prety tight and should work in your 2.gen.. and so should an f-body oilpan with enough engine setback..

brakes should be a matter of keeping stock rear discs, and perhaps upgrading to ls1 brakes via some brackets....

interior should be a pair of light weight seats and a cage...

rims.. id get some el-cheapos for a bmw off ebay and run a good sticky tire.. and find out what to do in the rear.... sliders, tractionbars and perhaps a watts-link??

[DDY RCKT]

What do you guys think of this plan of action:

Work the suspension, brakes, subframe, body work, etc. first. Hang on to the BBC for now (Since I have it, and it just needs new bearings and to be put back together). Find out where my budget is when I get that sorted out, and make a decision on the engine. If I've got room, go for the LSx, if not, use the BBC.

[wiedemab]

Not a bad plan - Don't forget about the good ole Small Block. LSX engine would be preferable, but the a small block will be much lighter than the BB and still make good power for the money - just a thought.

[deuce_454]

Not a bad plan - Don't forget about the good ole Small Block. LSX engine would be preferable, but the a small block will be much lighter than the BB and still make good power for the money - just a thought.

you can get a used 6.0 for arround 500-750, and a pair fo L92 heads flow 320 out of the box and costs arround 1000, for that money you cant even get a set of AFR sbc heads.... and a 6.0 iron block is stronger than almost any sbc block out there, oem or aftermatket....

[vinz68]

Great thread :thumbsup: Good luck I hope you kick his a$$.

[wiedemab]

you can get a used 6.0 for arround 500-750, and a pair fo L92 heads flow 320 out of the box and costs arround 1000, for that money you cant even get a set of AFR sbc heads.... and a 6.0 iron block is stronger than almost any sbc block out there, oem or aftermatket....


Point taken - I just didn't want the old SBC to get left out - Just throwing out another option. He may run across a good deal on one - you never know. I would like to see a budget 6.0L make its way into this project - it would give me chance to learn more about them!

I really hope this thing smokes the little BMW - Good Luck

[rich-allen]

You could save a lot of cash going with an lsx motor and using a single plane intake. That would save the extra cost of FI and expensive ecm.

GM sells a 440 hp single plane crate for $4900, I'm sure you could get a good engine for half that amount.



Good luck,

Rich

[DDY RCKT]

Hi guys! Thanks again for all the help and encouragement! The Camaro should go into my shop this weekend for disassembly, so I can see what I'm working with.

As far as the engine goes, I've researched, and looked, and shopped, and I think I've come up with potentially the answer. The LQ4, or iron block 6.0L that has been suggested. I have seen complete motors for $1500 +/- $200, all accessories and wiring, etc. included. This is a truck motor, they make around 300/370 stock. Mild cams can get them up to 480/450 with the stock iron heads! If I have the budget, the L92/L76 combo ($1000) can put these things out to 550/470 range! That's being completely streetable, with good mileage. They'll rev out to 6800 RPM, too! Should make generous use of that T56!

So I think I've settled on going that route, as it seems to be the best budget/power option for this project. They aren't much heavier than the aluminum LS motors, either, esp. with an aluminum head swap.

So now it's just finding a deal on a complete LQ4 sometime in the next year, or so. The sooner the better, as far as fabrication goes, but I have some time before I need it.

Again, thanks to everyone! The upcoming long weekend should give me a chance to get the website up and posted, so I can chronicle the entire process starting with getting a non running car up the grade into my shop. :lol:

:lateral: FTW!

This has to be my favorite forum I've ever been to!

[DDY RCKT]

Point taken - I just didn't want the old SBC to get left out - Just throwing out another option. He may run across a good deal on one - you never know. I would like to see a budget 6.0L make its way into this project - it would give me chance to learn more about them!

I really hope this thing smokes the little BMW - Good Luck

Wish granted!!!! Everything will be posted!

[DDY RCKT]

OH!

I almost forgot. Interior, paint, etc. are exempt from the budget, so anything I do for paint, or interior bits (basically, anything not functional to make it faster or work, like gauges) will not be counted against the $12K limit, so that gives me a little more flexibility.

[Payton King]

but I am sure someone here does. In my Denali it is the 6.0 motor with aluminum heads. Maybe called a LQ9 motor. That set of heads are the same as the LS6 head except the chambers are larger thus lower compression. Great head for a boosted application.

Hop on www.ls1tech.com and go to the for sale section. lots of good parts there.

[DDY RCKT]

but I am sure someone here does. In my Denali it is the 6.0 motor with aluminum heads. Maybe called a LQ9 motor. That set of heads are the same as the LS6 head except the chambers are larger thus lower compression. Great head for a boosted application.

Hop on www.ls1tech.com and go to the for sale section. lots of good parts there.

Yep, that's the LQ9. Originally, the distinction was the LQ4 had Iron heads. They later went to an aluminum head in the LQ4

[CRCRFT78]

GREAT THREAD. I will definately watch this to see what happens. Good luck to your friend with the M3, hes going to need it. I hope you wax the track with his a$$.

[krptonite]

i'm pretty sure the lq9 from the escalade etc needs higher octane than an lq4 as it is higher compression,

[DDY RCKT]

i'm pretty sure the lq9 from the escalade etc needs higher octane than an lq4 as it is higher compression,

Yep, this is true!

[Jimjim]

Hi All; Been lurking here for a week or so and just saw this thread. American cars can be made to outrun most sports cars (until you reach the Mega ones ie; Farrari, Maserati, etc.). The old 76 Trans Ams like The Smoky and the Bandit car, a Camaro clone, (the dash had a plaque that said "Radial Tuned Suspension" would outrun most Porches, Jags, Mercedes 450s, etc right out off the dealers lot. You might want to look into what thier specs were. I've built numerus (Camaros, Grand prixs, Impalas, Trans Ams, etc) over the years (I'm 65)that would blow the doors off most high dollar road cars. My ride right now is a sleeper '00 S10 Xtreme with a LS1, le1 discs, Ford 8.8 3.73 posi rear w/ discs, and numerous other mods to the suspensions. Other than the cost I've got about $9.000 in it. Heres some pictures. A friend of mine has a '90 Porche 911 and I eat him alive going thru the Blue Ridge Parkway.....Jim

[krptonite]

i think this is a cool project and you may even beat the beemer if its a long track but where will the pleasure come from when you beat "the puny 2.5l" with a 6ltr+ motor? another post said that the smoky /bandit style transams would smoke them straight off the lot but 6.6ltr compared to most sub 3 ltr, come on!! great till the first corner then its all over, the europeans realised years ago that a near 50/50 weight bias was far more important than just dropping in a massive motor, even in the sixties there were ford falcons with289's getting whupped on tracks by 1.3 ltr mini coopers , there is probably not much weight difference between the beemer and camaro so should the camaro keep a full interior too? please dont think i am trying to start an argument here as i am not, i would much rather have the camaro , i just think it strange that everyone thinks the best idea is to throw the biggest motor at it and hope for long straights, its a massive prop to german engineering that it will take a bigass engine to beat their little one!(no, i am not german!!lol) i remember seeing on tv an m5 fourdoorsedan annihilating an 03 vette round a formula 1 track, americas best handling sports car getting owned by a 5 seater sedan! but the 07 would do better though, as its a 427! an even bigger motor to make up for a lack of balance.

[DDY RCKT]

Well, that's the root of the argument, and the bet. Can I make an American Muscle car become a sports car for 12 grand? The M3 is a sports sedan, it's fast in the corners, but he can maybe hit 160 with a tail wind. But he's 500+/- lbs lighter than the Camaro. ~3200 vs ~3700. Doesn't seem like a big difference, but it's actually 16% heavier! Plus, it's ancient in terms of handling, and not weight balanced. There are a lot of things that I need to compensate for with an American muscle car. There's no way in hell his M3 would hang with a 6.0L Camaro in a Drag race. He knows this as well as I do. I'd destroy him in the straights with a 350 any day of the week. and he'll make up all that time in the corners, which is what we are trying to stop.

[DDY RCKT]

I brought the Big Block home today. I'm tempted to use it again. It's....imposing, to say the least. :D

[deuce_454]

Imho, stick with the Ls engine... there are alot of things that get easier with that 6.0, clutch and flywheel are oem GM... and are cheap.. a 5-600 Hp clutch for a BBC costs real money.. i mean if you are going to race it anything less than a mcleod street twin or tilton for that BBC is waisting cash, a stock LS7 corvette clutch will get you home in first go... a bbc to t56 bellhousing is spendy! a Junkyard LS/t56 isnt.... heads for a BBC is upwards of 3 grand, for that money you can get L92 heads, a big cam, single plane intake, MSD ignition box and gaskets to perform the swap... throw in alittle extra and you can get an LQ9 longblock...

[deuce_454]

but i sure understand where you are comming from with that BBC, its what am running in my 32 roadster... and just because it looks cool

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s295/deuce_454/IMG_0008.jpg

[DDY RCKT]

I have the T56 and a McLeod street twin 1200 Hp holding clutch to go with it!

But I'm going with the LQ4 for the Camaro. I just need a new project for the Caddy Big Block at somet point! It's just too cool for words.

[silver63c10]

Very cool project, always good to see a late 2nd gen getting built.

My dad and I are building a 79 with much the same goals, less emphasis on street manners, though. Like nearly everyone else, I would turn the BBC for some cash and go either LS or small block. We're going with an aluminum headed 377, and will be moving to a LQ4 after we find the breaking point with it.

A lot of progress can be made on a tight budget with the stock subframe, the suspension forum at www.nastyz28.com is a great resource for info.

I've got tons of pictures and all the specs for our build at http://www.acmeautopartsonline.com/camaro. Can't wait to see the progress on yours, and it tearing up some German meat!

[DDY RCKT]

I think it's awesome what you are doing! It looks pretty good to me!

Do you have the truck arms in yet?

[silver63c10]

Yeah, all the suspension fab is done. We're working on getting the rest of the minor sheet metal work (trunk, dash, etc.) done, then it will be on to paint. Here's a shot of it all together..

http://www.acmeautopartsonline.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_camaroweb124.jpg

It's about like stuffing 23 pounds of potatoes in a 5 pound sack. We'll find out how good of an idea doing all that work was eventually :lol:

[deuce_454]

That truck arm setup really looks like the ticket! i doubt there is a cheaper full race solution for your car... it does however require a fair bit of cutting and welding....

[DDY RCKT]

That truck arm setup really looks like the ticket! i doubt there is a cheaper full race solution for your car... it does however require a fair bit of cutting and welding....

Hmm... The cutting and welding doesn't bother me. Hot Rods to Hell has a full truck arm setup available for the 2nd Gen, I think they come in at $1900 for everything.

You guys really like the truck arm for track duty, then? Even over a 4-link?

[novanutcase]

Hmm... The cutting and welding doesn't bother me. Hot Rods to Hell has a full truck arm setup available for the 2nd Gen, I think they come in at $1900 for everything.

You guys really like the truck arm for track duty, then? Even over a 4-link?

I like it although I think some are concerned with the unsprung weight it provides along with trying to run exhaust.

John

[MarkM66]

Using an iron block LSX will save you little in weight. If you've got a good BBC at a good price, use it.

LS1:

457.6 lbs, LS1 auto; 497.2 lbs, LS1/LS6 manual

BBC & SBC

From Chevy2only; http://www.chevy2only.com/index.php...N_position=54:8

Weights are from carb to oil pan with HEI dist, harmonic balancer, and iron water pump.

SMALL BLOCK
All iron small block 520 lbs.
Alum heads w/iron small block 480 lbs.
All alum motor 389 lbs.

BIG BLOCK
All iron BB 754 lbs.
Alum heads with iron block 660 lbs.
All alum BB 501 lbs.

[backtobas]

My brother recently picked up LS out of 98 Camaro, with a cam, upgraded rod bolts, headgaskets, etc, plus 4l60 trans, for 2600.00 Engine trans, wiring computer, etc everything for 2600.00

Point being, the power, weight of LS engine, are hard to beat, and out there if you shop it around.

[silver63c10]

You guys really like the truck arm for track duty, then? Even over a 4-link?

We picked it mostly because of the simplicity of the setup. There is adjustability, having two positions in the front and being able to affect it with blocks, but to be able to really fine tune the car, a 3-link seems to be the way to go. We're just sticking to the KISS principle, coming into this with basically zero chassis tuning experience.

[silver63c10]

it does however require a fair bit of cutting and welding....

A fair bit, yes :lol:

http://www.acmeautopartsonline.com/gallery/albums/camaro2/normal_camaroweb42.jpg

http://www.acmeautopartsonline.com/gallery/albums/camaro2/normal_camaroweb45.jpg

On the weight issue, we never weighed them side by side, but I would be willing to bet that the arms, shocks, and crossmember don't weigh much more than the factory leafs did. We got all our parts from Stock Car Products (http://www.stockcarproducts.com/trkarm.htm). Their arms are $225 each, and it says the bushing style ones weigh 19 pounds each.

On the exhaust, pretty much the only possibility is a side dump. There's room around the rear end for tailpipes, but there's just no clearance around the arms to get pipe back there. We will be running oval tubing with the low profile SpinTechs, mounted solid to the frame rails and body, with a slash cut exiting in front of the tire NASCAR style.

[DDY RCKT]

I'll have to see if the Hot Rods to Hell kit needs that much cutting. That's getting too close to purpose built race car trim for the conditions, methinks.

[va72mlibu]

Do you have a line on the LQ4?

[DDY RCKT]

Do you have a line on the LQ4?

There are a few out there, but they're all pretty far away. I'm not pressed to get one now, so I'm just casually looking right now.

[va72mlibu]

I assume though that if a "deal of a lifetime" LS1 stumbled your way, then you would get it? In other words, is the LQ4 a compromise or is there some particular reason you want to get that, other than cost?

[DDY RCKT]

I assume though that if a "deal of a lifetime" LS1 stumbled your way, then you would get it? In other words, is the LQ4 a compromise or is there some particular reason you want to get that, other than cost?

I wouldn't pass up a deal of a lifetime LS1 for sure! I like the LQ4 for the 4" bore, but I can get power from an LS1 as well. The LQ4 with the L92 heads and the L76 intake with a mild cam is around 550 HP, but it's also 150-200 lbs heavier than the all aluminum LS.

Why, do you have one? :unibrow:

[deuce_454]

th hotrods to hell kit http://www.hotrodstohell.net/truckarm/truckarm_camaro/f_body_truckarm.htm appears to have the disadvantage of not leaving room for subframe connectors... not without re-egineering atleast

[deuce_454]

I have the T56 and a McLeod street twin 1200 Hp holding clutch to go with it!

But I'm going with the LQ4 for the Camaro. I just need a new project for the Caddy Big Block at somet point! It's just too cool for words.

i thought it was a Chevy by the way???

[DDY RCKT]

i thought it was a Chevy by the way???

So did I, until I picked it up. Turns out the casting is a caddy big block. I thought they were all the same, but apparently not! :willy: :willy:

[silver63c10]

th hotrods to hell kit http://www.hotrodstohell.net/truckarm/truckarm_camaro/f_body_truckarm.htm appears to have the disadvantage of not leaving room for subframe connectors... not without re-egineering atleast

The arms will clear SFCs on a 2nd gen, the floorpan and framerails are much different on the 2nd gen. The arms come closer to hitting to the rear frame rails than the connectors. I don't have any pics that show how everything fits together, but we used the Comp Engineering connectors and everything clears.

HTH doesn't have any shots of their kit installed on a 2nd gen (I've never been able to find pictures of truck arms on another 2nd gen..). There is pretty much no room in front of the rear end housing for a traditional coil setup, so I'd like to know how exactly they're doing it, if they have done one before.

[Fastbowtie]

Ok I just want to say I agree with using a LS2 Engine but in case you can't find the deal your looking for here is some food for thought. Cadillac has some good performance parts too and with aluminum heads and intake they weigh only as much as a small chevy.:D


http://cad500parts.com/head/head.htm

[dave96dcm]

I think that this is going to be great, but FIY the E36 M3 puts 220hp to the wheels on a Mustang dyno, and the E46 puts 275 RWHP, and the E46 weighs 200 ish lbs more, I usually see both of them running pretty much neck and neck with similar drivers in each car, so your competition is 220RWHP and 3100 lbs, basically really similar to a base c5 vette, with 50/50 weight distribution, the LS engine will help you alot more than you think in the weight department, also remember that the M3 has aluminum control arms and a independant rear so you have your work cut out for you. But I think that you can do it.

[moorepwr]

This is about how the conversation went down:

Buddy: "I love muscle cars, man, but they can't hang with my [97 E36] M3 on the track. Not for the money, at least."

Me: "That's total crap. I bet I could build up a sexy muscle car that could destroy that German turd of your for less than you paid for it!" (I like his M, but I gotta give him crap about it.)

Ok, so I paraphrased a little, but the context is there. Ok, 2nd Gen Camaro it is. Given that I am a big fan of the Transformers movie, and it happens to have a 2nd Gen Camaro in it, we're going with that car.

The challenge is to replicate the look of the Transformers 1976 Camaro, as closely as possible to provide track ready performance, with a cap of $12K for the entire project.

So far, we're on track. I got the Camaro, a 1975 Model with a missing fender, no engine, and minor rust that I can fix. Total cost: $400

I traded some stockpiled parts for a complete T56 setup. I'll need to figure out the mounting and hydraulics, of course, but with your help, I think we can do it!

I also have a complete running 472 BBC that was donated to the cause.

Keep in mind what I'm trying to accomplish. I need to beat a stock 1997 M3 around a road course. This car has 250 HP, legendary handling, and will be driven by an above average driver.

Man, I sound like a pretentious pr*ck according to that story, don't I? Of course his version sounds more dramatic. Yes, I'm that buddy with the E36 M3. I got tired of waiting to start the restification of My '69 Camaro, and I paid $11k for mine, not $12k. And I've been helping him plan the mods!

Thanks for calling me an above average driver :-D

I'd just like to point out a couple funny points: That pile of parts he traded for a T56? It was a 1995 TA he bought with a new long block for $1500. It just needed to be reassembled. And it counts on the tally. If anyone can do something on an impossibly small budget, it's him.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/moorepwr/1969%20Camaro/P1010645_sm.jpg

The free engine? 472 Caddy with bad bearings. Not concerned about it :-p.

So let me introduce myself, I'm 28, and I'm a Mechanical Engineer for the DoD as well. I work with DDY RCKT, and I've had my 1969 Camaro since 1984. (Gift from my grandfather) And it hasn't run since then either. Taking it off the trailer Wednesday, the front driver wheel wouldn't turn. But, I have a long ways to go.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/moorepwr/1969%20Camaro/P1010682_sm.jpg

My first real modification was a 1986 Monte Carlo SS with a B-spindle conversion 5 years ago. Del-a-lum bushings, Bilstein shocks, and it rode pretty well. It needed bodywork like nobody's business, but check out the stance:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa62/moorepwr/1986%20Monte%20Carlo%20SS/MonteFrontQuarter_1.jpg

I think this is a neat concept for a build, but it's not like I'll be surprised if he's successful.

[DDY RCKT]

Sup Rickfert! You're an engineer, you're automatically a pretentious bastige, and you know it!

You are an above average driver, but I've got more track time than you. Nyah Nyah! :lol:

I miss the Monte... :( But I can't wait to tear into that 69!

$11K! Curses! There goes my budget...

[deuce_454]

Enough with the small talk.. show us some pics :D LOL

hows the project going?? what did you end up with suspension wise?? truckarm ? hotchkiss? air? SC&C? alot of names has been tossed arround here

[Beach Cruiser]

Guys! Where have I been on this! I'm in Va Beach and totally missed this thread. I have a WS6 Trans AM that I auto-x (right at your back door at RIR) I'm building a 67 RS that hopefully will outrun the T/A. I consistantly beat porshes, BMW and Mercades Benzs so it can be done! My T/A is stock with the LS1 and a 6Sp, and no chassis mods. Check out this site for tons of F-Body Road Racing info http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/ Send me a PM and I'll be glad to help you with the planning for your build and I do work for Beer! The suggestion about Nascar or Circle track suspenstion parts is right on time... I'd start there, yeah, and loose the boat anchor engine, you won't like the push at 100+ MPH on a real road course. I'm running my T/A at VIR in Danville in March.

[Herb68]

Your opponent is helping you plan your set-up? I would be suspicious if he starts suggesting things like a solid-axle front suspension or a 2bbl carb for the BB Caddy motor!

Seriously, though, it sounds like good friendly competition. I think you are definately headed in the right direction with the build. The T-56 is longer and heavier than the stock tranny (I assume?), so it will give you a little better weight distribution when coupled with aluminum heads. Have you thought about other ways to reduce front end weight such as manual steering, plastic radiator, etc.? You could also flare the fenders to fit wider tires after you lower the stance.

After the final race, you guys should trade cars and run them again. (double or nothing?)

[Daz]

Subscribed :lateral: !!!

[OldSchoolSS]

You could always cut up the firewall and set the engine farther back to help out the weight balance. That 472 BB Cadillac is actually pretty light. If you throw an aluminum intake in it, it is only 50 lbs heavier than an all iron sbc, or so I've read.

Why don't you make your own front subframe using a c4 corvette K member & suspension components? I just picked up a whole c4 frame for 850 bucks.

Yes all us engineers are pretentious, or that's what the shop guys at work like to think of us as.

[DDY RCKT]

Having moved that 472 around a bit, I'm suspicious of anyone who says it's light. :_paranoid

[Daz]

I think LS1/LS2/LS6 is the way to go ! Lightweight, potent in stock form, response to power adder's extremely well, besides you can pick one up off of LS1tech for anywhere from $1200 to $3000 including the ECU as a drop in !