Once more .. Art Morrison or DSE sub?

[Bowtieracing]

Hello friends..

Its about time to make my mind wich way to go. I need new subframe fast and have come to two choises. Mostly because i have C6 brakes allready.

1 ) DSE front clip
I like:
-C6 spindles
-splined swaybar
-"detroit tuned" shocks to match my DSE rear shocks
- 10" wheels

I dont like :
-price


2) Art Morrison clip
I like:
-The price !! and possibility to bay it the bare frame now and later the rest of the parts
I dont like :
-the fabbed look compared to hydroformed
- looks of the stock style swaybar ( yes yes i know it sounds crazy..)
- "only" 9,5 wheels

Plase give me your opinions , i need to make my mind asap.

[mazspeed]

I have seen both close up. Art's at the Goodguys show. And CAR has a DSE unit one for display. Both company's are top notch, but if it was my car, I would go with the DSE. The quality is just outstanding, not that Art's isn't, just the DSE is a work of, well art. Now if you went for the full frame, you would get the Art frame. But you're not going to go wrong with either sub. BTW you can also get DSE's without powercoat.

[murtah]

Concur with above.

Go with the DSE sub if you want a top of the line piece that to the uninformed looks like it came with the car. DSE hasn't included their sub with any specials but if you shop around with their dealers you might get a break on price when they are running a sale.

Art's sub is also top of the line, with a damn bargain of a price for what you get. A good portion of the suspension pieces can be replaced OTC at GM or at the yard, plus Art has enough space between the rails to run a aftermarket AC compressor in the stock location of a LSX with little modification.
If these bennies aren't that important to what you have in mind and you have the cash; get the DSE sub.

[70gotboost]

Depends on what YOU really want?? In your words it reads like you want something that 'looks good' that is less expensive, rather than something that performs at a price.

[Bowtieracing]

Thank you for good opinions - as always :cheers:

If i decide to go with DSE sub can someone give me a hint were to ask "good" deal ? And is there any dse dealer close to Florida ( my freight forwarder is in FL lake worth )

[rwhite692]

One thing to consider (or at least, one thing that I'm considering, I guess I should say) is that with the Morrison sub, because it is built around the (wider) C5 arms, you will be running front wheels with a significantly greater amount of backside offset. This tends to make the front wheels look very "flat" ie not much "dish" to them, much like what a current late model vette looks like. I much prefer the look of a little more depth to the front wheel appearance on a 60's musclecar, and the DSE accomplishes this since they are using a totally different approach...Just my $.02 -Rob

[Silver69Camaro]

One thing to consider (or at least, one thing that I'm considering, I guess I should say) is that with the Morrison sub, because it is built around the (wider) C5 arms, you will be running front wheels with a significantly greater amount of backside offset. This tends to make the front wheels look very "flat" ie not much "dish" to them, much like what a current late model vette looks like. I much prefer the look of a little more depth to the front wheel appearance on a 60's musclecar, and the DSE accomplishes this since they are using a totally different approach...Just my $.02 -Rob

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Our subframe has a 1/2" wider hub track than stock and does not require a flat-faced wheel, but keeps scrub in the optimum range.

Bowtie, a small correction, you can indeed run a 10" wheel with our subframe. Heck, we have one customer running a 295mm tire.

At any rate, pick whatever subframe you think looks the best. If you like the look of a stock appearing subframe, go with DSE. If you like the fabbed/aftermarket look, use ours. Both drive very similar and handle extremely well and there isn't anybody on these forums who would be able to tell the difference. I bet the weight between the two is darn close, also.

[Silver69Camaro]

Depends on what YOU really want?? In your words it reads like you want something that 'looks good' that is less expensive, rather than something that performs at a price.

Again, handling performance is the same between the two subframes.

[PTAddict]

I have the DSE sub, which we have just test fitted into my '69. It really is a remarkable piece of engineering. And the price is not actually much different, at least if you're using all new suspension components ... The DSE will fit all LSx oil pans, and will clear a stock F-Body A/C compressor, if that matters. Ultimately, the choice of DSE partly came down to wanting front and rear suspension (Q-link) engineered together, thus having one fewer vendor to deal with in getting things set up the way I want when I hit the track.

I have a Morrison Tri-5 chassis in my wife's '55, and that is also a terrific piece. Both companies are great to deal with from a customer service perspective, so you really can't go wrong either way.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Have I got a deal for you. In a couple weeks I am going to Indiana to get our new 2 car trailer. On the way back I am swining through North Carolina by DSE to pick up a Subframe for a project. I could grab 2 while I was there.

Or, if you decide on Art Morrison, I have to order one of their chasiss in a day or 2 and I could have the 2 ride together.

What does this mean for you?

a couple things.

1 I have a truck that goes to South Florida every 2 weeks, so we can deliver which ever subframe you choose to you forwarder free!

2 Should you decide on the DSE frame, I will bring it back from DSE factory to my shop, FREE!

3 If you decide on the Art morrison Chassis, we can shipp your with ours and save a few hundred on shipping splitting shipping.

So which ever you choose, your going to save $400 to $600+ on shipping alone.

[wiedemab]

Indiana - that's my neck of the woods. What part of the Hoosier State? Have a good trip Frank.

Bowtieracing - good luck with the decision - it's a tough one. I don't think you'll be disappointed either way though.

[Bowtieracing]

Bowtie, a small correction, you can indeed run a 10" wheel with our subframe. Heck, we have one customer running a 295mm tire.

At any rate, pick whatever subframe you think looks the best. If you like the look of a stock appearing subframe, go with DSE. If you like the fabbed/aftermarket look, use ours. Both drive very similar and handle extremely well and there isn't anybody on these forums who would be able to tell the difference. I bet the weight between the two is darn close, also.

Matt THANK YOU for your personal input - means a lot to me. I have never thought this could be so damn hard to choose. And all this came way faster than i was planned due several reasons.

10" Wheels ? Great because i have stuck in a idea having 285 fronts to get needed grip for 14" brakes. I had skinny fronts with big brakes last project and hated it .

I am not too much of fan of dished wheels so that isnt such a big deal for me but stock appearing looks are - and not just by me . Here in finland cars need to be inspected once a year and sometimes too much aftermarket modifications can be a broblem.

This is killing me :willy:

[Bowtieracing]

Have I got a deal for you. In a couple weeks I am going to Indiana to get our new 2 car trailer. On the way back I am swining through North Carolina by DSE to pick up a Subframe for a project. I could grab 2 while I was there.

Or, if you decide on Art Morrison, I have to order one of their chasiss in a day or 2 and I could have the 2 ride together.

What does this mean for you?

a couple things.

1 I have a truck that goes to South Florida every 2 weeks, so we can deliver which ever subframe you choose to you forwarder free!

2 Should you decide on the DSE frame, I will bring it back from DSE factory to my shop, FREE!

3 If you decide on the Art morrison Chassis, we can shipp your with ours and save a few hundred on shipping splitting shipping.

So which ever you choose, your going to save $400 to $600+ on shipping alone.


Frank this is really really good news:lateral: The freight savings are like music to me:bow:

[dhutton]

I recently chose the AME subframe over the DSE for my project. Since the performance was essentially the same and I'm not concerned with bling the primary driver was cost - I was able to save $400 on shipping through one of the dealers here. While not a big difference when combined with the difference in price it was enough to push me in the AME direction. The other cost considerations were that I could use the stock F body LS1 accessory drive and oil pan. I was also able to install a Sanden compressor using the $100 Vintage Air bracket that VA included with my kit at no cost. Another plus for me has been support. They are helpful on the phone but I have also sent messages to Matt directly and received an answer very quickly. I don't think there are many products out there where you can communicate directly with the designer.

The quality of the subframe is excellent. The welds are a work of art and everything fit together including their LSx mounts and headers. The ceramic coated custom headers are nicely made and priced fairly.

Don

[Bowtieracing]

I recently chose the AME subframe over the DSE for my project. Since the performance was essentially the same and I'm not concerned with bling the primary driver was cost - I was able to save $400 on shipping through one of the dealers here. While not a big difference when combined with the difference in price it was enough to push me in the AME direction. The other cost considerations were that I could use the stock F body LS1 accessory drive and oil pan. I was also able to install a Sanden compressor using the $100 Vintage Air bracket that VA included with my kit at no cost. Another plus for me has been support. They are helpful on the phone but I have also sent messages to Matt directly and received an answer very quickly. I don't think there are many products out there where you can communicate directly with the designer.

The quality of the subframe is excellent. The welds are a work of art and everything fit together including their LSx mounts and headers. The ceramic coated custom headers are nicely made and priced fairly.

Don

Thanks Don!!! Have you driven it yet ? If so how do you like it ?

[dhutton]

Thanks Don!!! Have you driven it yet ? If so how do you like it ?

Sorry, my first roadtest is several months away. This is a total project and I'm doing all the work myself on weekends.

Don

[ProdigyCustoms]

Wiede, The new trailer is being built in Goshen. I don't know where the hell that is, but I will find it, LOL! It is supposed to be ready around the 10th, I just need it before SEMA departure on the 25th of October. I will be heading in from Nashville and out towards the east coast. So I will be in a hurry, but I have to pass by you along the way, maybe I can stop and say hey

[rwhite692]

[quote=Silver69Camaro]I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Our subframe has a 1/2" wider hub track than stock and does not require a flat-faced wheel, but keeps scrub in the optimum range.

quote]

Agree, It's really not a huge difference:

Stock Track Width = 60"
AM Sub = 60.5
DSE Sub = 58.5

So, the AM is 2" wider hub-to-hub, or, an inch of track width per side as compared to the DSE sub.

An extra inch of backspacing isn't a HUGE deal, I'll admit, but, it does change the look of the wheel, especially if you are getting up toward the maximum rim width possible...How much that aesthetic matters to any one person is of course just a personal preference.

[CraigMorrison]

Kyle and I had this same very conversation back at the March Pleasanton. He was answering questions about why the DSE was better than ours, and why ours was better than DSE's and it sounded like we both gave the same anwers......so here is the heavily paraphrased version......

We have both done a lot of homework and engineering on our products, and as a result you are probably going to be very hard pressed to find a performance advantage of one over the other. It is then down to what you like the look of (fabbed or hydroformed) and what "name brand" you like more.

Kyle and Stacy are great people, and if you go with those guys, you are going to get a great product. We're pretty good guys too (might be biased here :unibrow:) and you will great a great product. Either way you are going to have a great piece you will have a lot of fun with.

I know this really wasn't an answer, but this is the answer that I give when asked......

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

shoot, if you have the cake to get either one youre pretty much good and ballin..

I LOVE the fabbed look so im getting an Art frame.. should be in the works..

and you CAN run 10s.. why?.. because i am.:faint:

[Datsbad]

We currently have both frames, they both a real nice. So far only driven the DSE frame. It performs nicely but I think the base level coilovers are just not enough . Honestly my speed 3 kit I had in Fuel was excellent also . I cant tell a diff on the street at all between the new and what I had.

Now the ART frame is so badass looking . Everyone that has been through the shop says "wow they are both nice but I would go with one with the Vette arms " why? It just looks better.

Basically looks is the answer here. Both cars are running 10" wheels , one has 6.125 bs and the other 7 3/8. Not much difference here.

Both are very nice .

[Bowtieracing]

We currently have both frames, they both a real nice. So far only driven the DSE frame. It performs nicely but I think the base level coilovers are just not enough . Honestly my speed 3 kit I had in Fuel was excellent also . I cant tell a diff on the street at all between the new and what I had.

.


Hello Datsbad... wish you would step in little bit sooner:unibrow: I would saved few bucks going on speed 3 kit!!!!

Frank made me a good deal offering free shipping and i send the money allready for new sub.

As soon as i hear from Frank and my freight forwarder i could post my first "update pic" !!!!!!!!!

[PTAddict]

We currently have both frames, they both a real nice. So far only driven the DSE frame. It performs nicely but I think the base level coilovers are just not enough . Honestly my speed 3 kit I had in Fuel was excellent also . I cant tell a diff on the street at all between the new and what I had.

Now the ART frame is so badass looking . Everyone that has been through the shop says "wow they are both nice but I would go with one with the Vette arms " why? It just looks better.

Basically looks is the answer here. Both cars are running 10" wheels , one has 6.125 bs and the other 7 3/8. Not much difference here.

Both are very nice .

Now, maybe it's just the engineering background in me coming out, but something really bothers me about choosing one or the other of these because "it just looks better". Looks are a subjective thing, of course, and if all the further you intend to push your car is some brisk on-ramps and some backroad corners 15 MPH over posted, I suppose looks might be as good a criteria as any. But partly because my previous post encouraged the overall "one is as good as the other" gist of this thread, I feel like I ought now to stress that there may be very real differences in these products, and there are questions you can ask to get a feel for these differences.

The kinds of questions to ask break down into three categories: What were your design goals? What are the tradeoffs and decisions you made to achieve those goals? How much real world validation of your product have you made to ensure it reaches those goals?

To ask intelligent questions, you first have to have specific ideas in mind yourself about how the car will be used. If you're never going to put in on the track for an HPDE events (and if not, you're really missing something!), then your criteria for ultimate roadholding and adjustability need not be nearly as high. On the other hand, ultimate track fanatics will want to know what track testing (they did do a lot of track testing, right?) has revealed about the range of optimum setups for this subframe. Another thing to consider is the match of your chosen sub/suspension to your intended rear suspension. Will your rear suspension match the front in terms of damping ratios, roll vs. bump stiffness, roll center, and anti-squat/anti-dive goals? What problems will occur if it doesn't? Did the vendor emphasize weight reduction first, torsional rigidity first, or some balance between the two (or was that tradeoff never intentionally made)? Have they done FEA on their products, and what does that analysis reveal about the torsional rigidity of their product vs. the stock subframe? Why did DSE choose fabricated control arms, and Morrison stock 'Vette arms? And so on.

I think, in this case, we have two vendors who are respected, respectable, and successful. Neither wants, at least in a public forum, to get into an "ours is better than yours" p***ing match, particularly because real facts are usually obscured in such a debate anyway, and ultimately there is damage to the reputation of both. So it falls to us, as consumers, to push hard enough to get enough answers to make rational decisions. Which is not to say that in the end, it still might be a coin toss for you.

Cheers,

Scott

[Bowtieracing]

Now, maybe it's just the engineering background in me coming out, but something really bothers me about choosing one or the other of these because "it just looks better". Looks are a subjective thing, of course, and if all the further you intend to push your car is some brisk on-ramps and some backroad corners 15 MPH over posted, I suppose looks might be as good a criteria as any.Cheers,

Scott


Scott i highly agree with you.

And i think i have pretty good resons to go with aftermarket sub. Heres goes;

I need oilpan clearance because i want to use drysump engine with stock pan. Therefore the front steer is a must. My first plan was to use DSE speed 3 kit, unisteer or BRP rack an pinion and ATS spindles to mount my C6 brakes easily.

After reading many posts and talking to Steve(streetfytr68)
- who has actually ride many camaros with stock modified and aftermarket subs and doing the math ( dse speed kit+ats parts+steering kit + labour ) It was pretty clear to me i NEED new sub. And one of the most important reason was, i want wide fronts because i am going to drive my car hard and need the brakes. Not just 245s wich i can lock easily.

I hope you find my reasons far a way from "just because its cool" category.

:cheers:

[Silver69Camaro]

Now, maybe it's just the engineering background in me coming out, but something really bothers me about choosing one or the other of these because "it just looks better".


Scott,
I totally agree. Choosing expensive aftermarket parts for your vehicle based on cosmetic reasons is foolish.

But I feel this is a different case. Take two subframes, DSE and ours (which are in question here). Both of these subframes are VERY well engineered (like Craig always says, I may be a bit biased...). But really, they are engineered and designed by people who know what works and what needs to be done for these vehicles to handle well. The performance between the two is nil and will make any customer happy. The only difference: looks. That's it. Seriously.

You can't go wrong with either subframe!

[gearhead1186]

im planning on getting a dse quadra link for sure... now yearone has a good holiday sale 20% off and then 10% off if you order over 1g. They carry the dse subframe. After the discounts the price comes down to 4680. Thats a savings of $1820. A pretty good chunk of change. Im nowhere near ready for the new front clip but thats a hell of a deal.

Should I jump on it or go with an AME clip when Im ready for it? I dont see myself shelling out the normal price of 6500 for the DSE frame in the future when Im ready for it. Is mixing AME front clip and DSE q-link no good for handling characteristics?

[simbad's68]

Yearone discounts are only for there stocked items. Starts @ 10%, over $500 extra 5%, over $1000.00 extra 10%. For a total of up to 20% off, does not include special orders.. Tried to order a Quadra-Link myself>>

[Gordz32]

Go with the AM frame for Sure!

[gearhead1186]

Yearone discounts are only for there stocked items. Starts @ 10%, over $500 extra 5%, over $1000.00 extra 10%. For a total of up to 20% off, does not include special orders.. Tried to order a Quadra-Link myself>>

this is a holiday sale promo code. its 20% and then 10% more when you order over 1g. I called up a rep and asked if the subframe applied and he said no but then he said he was gonna check... 2 minutes later he said i could apply it... im not gonna argue with him ha.. so discounted DSE or AM? assuming quadra link rear already..

[ProdigyCustoms]

Soon as I saw your post this evening I called also since that is WAY under distributor pricing by HUNDREDS of dollars. I got the same thing but when I tried to pay it was rejected.

[ProdigyCustoms]

As for which frame I honestly believe if the two frames were run in the same car, same driver, same track, same weather, same humidity.............well you get the point, that when the dust settled neither would have a sizeable advantage over the other.

It has been said a few times, what the hell, I will be the parrot! Do you like the Corvette aluminum / fabricated stuff, or more modified factory / OEM look. Not often is the final decision for suspension components all about looks, but this could be the exception. The rear suspension really has no bearing on the final subframe decision in this case.

Some people like to keep the car all with one manufactures products, others like to mix it up

[gearhead1186]

Soon as I saw your post this evening I called also since that is WAY under distributor pricing by HUNDREDS of dollars. I got the same thing but when I tried to pay it was rejected.

So the guy told you that you can apply the discount at first but then when he asked for credit card info something happened?? When I called I didnt try to pay, I just asked if the discount would apply and he said yes.

[gearhead1186]

As for which frame I honestly believe if the two frames were run in the same car, same driver, same track, same weather, same humidity.............well you get the point, that when the dust settled neither would have a sizeable advantage over the other.

It has been said a few times, what the hell, I will be the parrot! Do you like the Corvette aluminum / fabricated stuff, or more modified factory / OEM look. Not often is the final decision for suspension components all about looks, but this could be the exception. The rear suspension really has no bearing on the final subframe decision in this case.

Some people like to keep the car all with one manufactures products, others like to mix it up

this is more of a long term build as I dont have the funds to make a 6500 purchase at once... with that said AM seems like the one for me.. I can buy the bare clip, I like the fabricated look and you cant go wrong with vette aluminum. it will always be there.. thanks a bunch

[ProdigyCustoms]

We have to verify it in the morning.

[gearhead1186]

let me know when you find out.. thanks