ATS adapter plates + stock fbody oilpan in stock sub??

[Bowtieracing]

Is stock Fbody LSx oilpan supposed to fit in stock subframe with ATS adapter plates and mounts? Mine wont clear ???

Have i understood right at the ats modified energy suspension poly mounts should be installed upside down ?

Any ideas?

[Jr]

Is stock Fbody LSx oilpan supposed to fit in stock subframe with ATS adapter plates and mounts? Mine wont clear ???


Any ideas?

Are we talking about the 67-69 camaro? If so, you will NOT be able to use the Stock LSX oil pan. You will need to buy an aftermarket oil pan. ATS and AutoKraft supply these oil pans

[QSPres]

Which part of the pan doesn't fit?

[Teetoe_Jones]

The front part of the sump will contact the drag link. You have a few options- 1st is our aftermarket oil pan. While we feel our pan is of the highest quality, there are others out there that work too.
2nd option is to hack up the pan until it clears the drag link like S&P does.

Tyler

[QSPres]

In my GTO, I'm using spacers underneath the frame mounts to get the engine to clear the centerlink...

If your hood clearance allows it, that's the cheapest way to go...

[Bowtieracing]

The front part of the sump will contact the drag link. You have a few options- 1st is our aftermarket oil pan. While we feel our pan is of the highest quality, there are others out there that work too.
2nd option is to hack up the pan until it clears the drag link like S&P does.

Tyler


Thanks Tyler!!!

I just want to be sure at mounts are installed correct to my mock up motor.

I will just un bolt the stock pan and carry on the work:thumbsup:

[chicane]

If your hood clearance allows it, that's the cheapest way to go...

But the worst for your driveline / pinion angle...

[Bowtieracing]

But the worst for your driveline / pinion angle...

Chicane can you help me to get the right driveline angle. I am just now working on the rear transmission mount and can do a lot adjusting there. Should the engine be as level as possible ?

[QSPres]

Its not going to mess with your driveline angle at all.... In fact, its going to correct a design that is not right for an A-body.

If you look at a standard Chevelle motor mount, its a good 1/2+ taller than the Camaro mount that comes with the ATS kit. Chevelle guys would most likely try to use this mount anyway. That is, untill they tried running the stock A/C system..

If you look at the other mount kits out there, they all raise the engine up higher than the ATS kit. And with good reason, they all clear the centerlink but the ATS kit....

The common denominator is the trans crossmember. As long as its stock, or in the stock location/height, you're fine.

[Bowtieracing]

The common denominator is the trans crossmember. As long as its stock, or in the stock location/height, you're fine.


Hmm .. i a am trying to copy the dse desing my self and start by setting the engine / trans combo straight. I prefer the engine low and back.

Oil pan clearance wont be an issue because i am planning LS7 drysump

[QSPres]

I hear you. I purchased the ATS system for the same reasons. Their wording:

"The plates allow a direct bolt in of an LSX engine into the engine bay of most GM muscle cars, and include all needed hardware, and optional polyurethane Energy Suspension engine mounts."

Is deceptive at best, and pretty much false when it comes to A-bodies, which, other than F-bodies, is my definition of "most GM muscle cars"... What it should say, or at least have a disclaimer about, is the fact that you can't use the stock oil pan or accessories with this kit.

After all, when it says direct bolt in, that should mean you take the motor out of a donor car/truck and bolt on the ATS kit and "directly" bolt it in the car. But, as we're finding out, it doesn't.


I have no problem with the quality of what ATS includes in the kit, but their write up on the product needs an overhaul.

[Teetoe_Jones]

QPres-

Most people swapping in LSX engines know that stock oil pans don't fit into the chassis. If you came into this swap thinking the engine mounts were the only part that were required for installation, you didn't do your research. Even on our products page, catalog and supplement sheet, the fitment of the engine and oil pan clearance is talked about.

Here is an example-
Wheel companies sell 18x12 rims for the rear of Camaro. It won't fit without mini tubbing, but for most people looking at that wheel, it is common knowledge.
We sell bolt on engine plates. People who buy them know up front that the A/C, oil pan, engine mounts, exhaust, and crossmember all need to be changed to allow the install of an LSX engine.

You make it sound like we are intentionally deceiving people with our descriptions when it just not the case. You have mentioned it on other boards in multiple threads. I don't know what you expected when you started your swap, but it seems our plates are the thorn in your side when it comes to your installation. I'll add a notation for future swappers that there will be an oil pan fitment issue, so we don't cause any more issues like we've caused you.

Tyler

[QSPres]

Well Tyler, that's odd, because the CTS-V factory pan fits the A-body chassis without modification.... With other companies' engine mounts.. And ironically, with yours as well. Yours just happens to set the engine too low for the pan to clear the centerlink. Not so with the other kits out there..

I'd say that's an important distinction.... Wouldn't you?

And the only reason I know that is because people do actually discuss such things on these forums.. That's what they're there for.

I bought your engine plates.. I read your description of them on your website several times. I didn't read about any fitment issues, anywhere. I just looked at the plate page again, and surprise, it still doesn't mention it. You have it on another page? Doesn't do anyone buying the plates any good there, does it?

It wasn't till I called in, after I bought everyting and was trying to get it to work that I found out no one did any research on a A-body before these things were designed.

Hey, I don't blame you for designing them the way you did, I mean, what smart business man wouldn't make them so that the person buying them would have to spend an additional $4000 (that's more than twice what my entire engine cost) to make it a bolt on deal.....

I'm simply letting everyone know that there is a far easier, cheaper way to do the swap if they think that's a bit rediculous. A simple set of spacers and a notch on the front crossmember is all it takes. Total cost to me: $20 and a couple of hours of cutting and welding.

You've sold, and will continue to sell, plenty of your kits and oil pans and accessory drives with me letting people know what my experiences have been with your product. Its a good product, just not described in a truthful fashion on the page where it counts. But as more and more people start doing these swaps and more and more is learned about what is required to make them happen, you can adjust your descriptions accordingly, no?

Again, I'm happy with the stuff I got, I just wish I would have known it wasn't going to work with the stock drive system and a factory oil pan. The truth is, I would have bought someone else's kit that fit this chassis a bit better. But, you wouldn't have to be reading these posts now.... A difficult trade off to be sure. At least there's a way around it without breaking the bank. And I'm sure there are folks out there that can appreciate that.

[Tom.A]

QSPres- It appears that you feel strong about this being wrong..although I will just offer my opinion. I bought Tyler's mounts for my A-Body and I was aware that the stock pan would not fit. I re-confirmed this when I spoke to Tyler so I don't think anybody is at fault here. ATS can't be expected to prove every GM pan offering or acc. drive system. I took the direct bolt in "GM Muscle Cars" as meaning that I don't have to fab the mounting points on my car...your comments make it sound like you expect it to work any LSX combo. For example if you used these mounts and say your sheet metal intake did not clear the hood? Is it the motor mount adapter MFG's fault?
No, it is the world of Hot Rodding...nothing is easy.


[QUOTE=QSPres] I just looked at the plate page again, and surprise, it still doesn't mention it.

This post is only hours old? He is a Parts supplier not webmaster. I am sure he will follow thru and change.

[QUOTE=QSPres] Hey, I don't blame you for designing them the way you did, I mean, what smart business man wouldn't make them so that the person buying them would have to spend an additional $4000 (that's more than twice what my entire engine cost) to make it a bolt on deal.....

I don't think that is the case at all..

[QSPres]

Please show me where in the description it says you have to use the ATS pan..............

Please show me where in the description it says you can't use the factory accessories......


If I had all day to read through the entire website, like most of the guys who can afford to buy the other stuff listed for sale there, I guess I would have known... But I got silly and just read the actual description of the product I wanted to buy..... Silly me!!!!!!!!

"Bolt in" means just that, no matter how many bad referrences are thrown at me, whether it be 12" wheels or sheetmetal intakes, when the ad says bolt in, that's what its supposed to do.

Especially when the designer knows it won't fit with certain FACTORY combinations. Every LS-x motor comes with A/C, to not mention that this system can't use it when you go to buy it and calling it bolt in is not right.

I understand that Tyler is the "well known" guy here and I'm not. I also understand that coming to his "aid" may earn you guys brownie points with him down the road. I have to call it like I see it.

But right is right. And its not right how these things are described and sold. That, of course, doesn't make ATS any different from the thousands of other companies out there doing the exact same thing on a daily basis.

But if Tyler changes it, that will make ATS different for sure..

[chicane]

Chicane can you help me to get the right driveline angle. I am just now working on the rear transmission mount and can do a lot adjusting there. Should the engine be as level as possible ?

Since this has now become a two headed thread... the answer to your direct question will eventually unfold. So hang in there... but if you are in a time crunch, PM me and we'll go over it.

Its not going to mess with your driveline angle at all.... In fact, its going to correct a design that is not right for an A-body.

If you look at a standard Chevelle motor mount, its a good 1/2+ taller than the Camaro mount that comes with the ATS kit. Chevelle guys would most likely try to use this mount anyway. That is, untill they tried running the stock A/C system..

If you look at the other mount kits out there, they all raise the engine up higher than the ATS kit. And with good reason, they all clear the centerlink but the ATS kit....

The common denominator is the trans crossmember. As long as its stock, or in the stock location/height, you're fine.

Uhm... no.

The fact of the matter is... that it is going to change the driveline angle. And secondly, I highly doubt that most will be using the stock transmission cross member with any LSx combination... as most everyone but you, has already realized this. I would even venture to say that they have also realized that using the AC in its stock configuration is going to have an issue with the frame rail. Not to mention that the related issues with the available oil pans have been discussed for the last... I dont know, say minimum of... three years or more on more forums than I care to mention. Maybe you shouldn't include yourself in the statement of "Chevelle guys would most likely"... because you have pretty much singled yourself out.

What is the factory engine angle of the Chevelle ?? What is the factory angle of the differential ?? Have you taken into consideration any suspension geometry changes ?? Have you taken into consideration any change in ride ??

All of what I just asked, has a net effect on the driveline angle. Which, in most cases, can and will induce other problems... such as U-joint issues, balance and vibration issues and tailhousing failure.



If you look at the other mount kits out there, they all raise the engine up higher than the ATS kit. And with good reason, they all clear the centerlink but the ATS kit...

Hummmm... that is interesting. Now, which oil pan's were being used to give you the impression that they all fit and clear the linkage again ?? Did this also account for any height variance with the body mount bushings ?? And... did this account for the guy that doesnt want to hack his front cross member to make it all fit ??

Most likely not. "And with good reason" = bandaid work around to make it fit. Notice that it doesnt mean engineered or designed correctly to maintain proper alignment or doesnt effect the mass centroid axis or check for hood clearence.



I hear you. I purchased the ATS system for the same reasons. Their wording:

"The plates allow a direct bolt in of an LSX engine into the engine bay of most GM muscle cars, and include all needed hardware, and optional polyurethane Energy Suspension engine mounts."

Is deceptive at best, and pretty much false when it comes to A-bodies, which, other than F-bodies, is my definition of "most GM muscle cars"... What it should say, or at least have a disclaimer about, is the fact that you can't use the stock oil pan or accessories with this kit.

After all, when it says direct bolt in, that should mean you take the motor out of a donor car/truck and bolt on the ATS kit and "directly" bolt it in the car. But, as we're finding out, it doesn't.

I have no problem with the quality of what ATS includes in the kit, but their write up on the product needs an overhaul.



Maybe your interpretation of what is stated that needs to be questioned. As it clearly doesnt state the use of any donor car relate items. The oil pan is a given... and has been for years. But since you have a real need for people to spell it out for you... every combination is a little different. To include your own. So remember, not everyone follows the Jones' around here... and build's cookie cutter cars.

Maybe it's your preception, interpretation and understanding of any write up that needs an overhaul. Because at this point... you seem to be the only one having an issue with what you have. Maybe... just maybe, you... to this point, have not done all of your homework and have not selected the best parts for the direction that you feel that you should taken to accomplish your goals.

I know that everyone else that doesnt want to "hack and fit"... has.

But then again... maybe my entire reply is just like yours. Im splitting hairs about something that I could read into a thousand different ways and that I might not have completely researched... but am expecting a miracle.

:cheers:

[chicane]

And since you like to read things... how about this. Verbatum... right from ATS:

ALL PRODUCTS ARE INTENDED FOR RACING USE AND MAY NOT BE LEGALLY USED ON THE HIGHWAY. The products offered for sale are true race-car comonents and, in all cases, require some fabrication skill.

And... about the whole "bolt-in" thing. "Bolt-in" refers to the engine, not the accessory drive. Nor is there any claimant of such.

:cheers:

[QSPres]

Have to get my waders on for this one...........


Bolt on refers to the engine? How come it won't even do that without mods? Hmmm, probably because you don't know what you're talking about? Yep, that's it...


Highly doubt anyone uses the stock trans crossmember? Again, I think you need to do your homework. No reason not to use it... Fits just fine.. PLenty of folks on LS1tech are using them, and just as many have subscribed to our info thread. I know that bothers you. :)

What change in ride? You know my car now? LOL

I already told you what pan, the CTS-V... And it fits with the BRP and the other mount kit, just like I said... There are plenty who have done that mod.

Body mount bushings control the height between the BODY and the frame. Nothing to do with the center link. Thanks for exposing yourself...

You say hack a front crossmember, I say a small trim that doesn't cost $4000.... You getting a piece of that $? Sounds like.. LOL

Again, you say bandaid, I say not giving your buddy $4000 of my hard earned... We'll let everyone else be the judge... I have no worries.

You say splitting hairs, I say informing the public about alternatives to throwing away $4000 that isn't needed.


Too bad we all can't be as perfect as you, huh? LMAO..

[camcojb]

Have to get my waders on for this one...........


Bolt on refers to the engine? How come it won't even do that without mods? Hmmm, probably because you don't know what you're talking about? Yep, that's it...




You obviously don't know Chicane, he definitely knows what he's talking about. I'll shut this down as the info is here in regards to the original question of if the stock f-body pan works with ATS mounts, and the bickering is giving me a headache! :lol:

Jody