Big problem with my power dyno numbers

[mazspeed]

Ok, I went to the dyno tuning session today and here is my problem, and here are my numbers. At the wheels I got 350ft pounds and 340hp. I spent 20k on Frank's advice on this supercharger setup and at 9 pounds of boost I gained 0 horsepower over what a stock zz430 would make. This too me is VERY unacceptable. The numbers as far as timing and air to fuel is perfect now, but these numbers are not nearly what they should be. I drove the car today, and it didn’t really feel any faster then my straight zz430 setup. What the hell do you guys think the problem might be? Can you tell I'm pissed?

[907rs]

Is the motor actually seeing any boost?

[mazspeed]

Is the motor actually seeing any boost?

Yes, 9 pounds in the carb hat.

[907rs]

I'd be talking to the guy that built the motor. You've got something wrong there.

[mazspeed]

I'd be talking to the guy that built the bottom end. You've got something wrong there.

The engine was built by Campbell Auto Restoration. What do you think the problem might be? I was told that since the air inlet on the supercharger is close to the headers and that there is no intercooler, that we should pick up a bunch of HP, but that they said that doesn't explain the large amount of loss.

[907rs]

It could be a number of things.

[69bird]

Just for kicks why don't you try disconnecting the blower and see how it runs? I have a p1sc procharger on a 350. I havent dynoed it yet but Im sure im in the 450-500 range. What was your afr at? Timing?

[camcojb]

Yes, 9 pounds in the carb hat.


you don't measure boost in the carb hat; you need to measure it in the intake, somewhere after the carb blades. My guess is you're not running anywhere near that boost level, at which point you'll need to figure out why.

A couple questions. What size air cleaner? Is it mounted directly to the blower or does it have some sort of intake tube? What pulley size? What blower? What timing at WOT? What A/F at WOT?

Don't panic yet, once we get it sorted out you'll be very happy with your choice.

Jody

[Steve Chryssos]

So it's getting air. Was it getting fuel? Were you monitoring A/F ratio? BSFC's? Post some numbers. Did you purchase a specialized blow thru carb?

Blow thru carb engines are among some of the hardest to tune as they violate the very principle that carburetors are based on: Signal. By signal, the engine sucks or pulls on the carburetor to draw air and fuel during the intake stroke. With a blow thru system, you are pushing instead of pulling. Be patient. Collect and analyze data on available air and fuel across the pull. Contact ProCharger and your custom carb builder to analyze the data. If you don't have a custom carb builder, get one. And get to know him on a first name basis.

[Jr]

Are you on the stock internals? 9 pounds of boost with no intercooler could wreak your day.

I'm sure you will get this figured out. :thumbsup:

[mazspeed]

you don't measure boost in the carb hat; you need to measure it in the intake, somewhere after the carb blades. My guess is you're not running anywhere near that boost level, at which point you'll need to figure out why.

A couple questions. What size air cleaner? Is it mounted directly to the blower or does it have some sort of intake tube? What pulley size? What blower? What timing at WOT? What A/F at WOT?

Don't panic yet, once we get it sorted out you'll be very happy with your choice.

Jody

Hey Jody. Ill need to pick your brain. The air cleaner is mounted on the supercharger itself, no intake tube. The size of the aircleaner was in the mid range due to clearence issues. It's a P1SC blower, not sure of the timing, but timing changes did nothing for power, and did not hurt power. I thought that was weird myself, but they advanced it 2/3's per pound after going down 1 degree per pound, or something like that. I'm not sure of the A/F. We took the carb hat off and it blows well into the engine, this is all I know.

[mazspeed]

So it's getting air. Was it getting fuel? Were you monitoring A/F ratio? BSFC's? Post some numbers. Did you purchase a specialized blow thru carb?

Blow thru carb engines are among some of the hardest to tune as they violate the very principle that carburetors are based on: Signal. By signal, the engine sucks or pulls on the carburetor to draw air and fuel during the intake stroke. With a blow thru system, you are pushing instead of pulling. Be patient. Collect and analyze data on available air and fuel across the pull. Contact ProCharger and your custom carb builder to analyze the data. If you don't have a custom carb builder, get one. And get to know him on a first name basis.

All the numbers I left in the car. I know that as WOT we read 11.8 to 12.5 on the A/R meter though the rev range to 6k. On the freeway at cruise we had 14 to 14.5. We also had an issue after a long downhill sweep, I was on it pretty good in 2nd at a high RPM and when the straight away came, the car died. They checked the floats and it's a bit on the low side, but they figured it was not the carb that lead to the stall out. The carb is a holley, but was sent to the carb shop and rebuilt for blower power. The boost reference is below the carb height.

[mazspeed]

Are you on the stock internals? 9 pounds of boost with no intercooler could wreak your day.

I'm sure you will get this figured out. :thumbsup:

The engine was rebuilt for blower power. Everything is forged.

[69bird]

You want to mount your boost refrence line for the fuel reg in the carb hat. If you mount it below the throttle blades it will see vaccum and lower your fuel pressure. This is how the guys set them up at turbomustangs.com. Do you have a msd btm? You want to retard timing with boost 1 deg to 1 psi. Or you can lock it out.

[mazspeed]

You want to mount your boost refrence line for the fuel reg in the carb hat. If you mount it below the throttle blades it will see vaccum and lower your fuel pressure. This is how the guys set them up at turbomustangs.com. Do you have a msd btm? You want to retard timing with boost 1 deg to 1 psi. Or you can lock it out.

They had the boost reference on the carb hat, and it was running too rich at WOT. When they moved it, that's when they saw better A/F readings. The timing is what you are referring too, spot on.

[mazspeed]

Just got off the phone with Jody, thanks again BTW, I should really pay you for your advice. We chatted about this problem, and got to the filter, which is mounted on the supercharger. We had to use a smaller one because the one that came with the kit, was hitting the master cylinder. So we got one half the size. Jody thinks this could possibly be a problem. I'm thinking Jody is on to something here. They are going to re dyno it in the morning without the filter on for a few runs. Just to ask, has anyone had similar problems with this before?

[69bird]

What size pulley do you have? What size cam are you running? Whats your compression?

[chrismoe]

Mike,

Chrs here. Sorry you are having trouble dialing in yor car. Hang in there man, it will get sorted out. And, you have a PM.

Take care,
Chris

[mazspeed]

What size pulley do you have? What size cam are you running? Whats your compression?

1 1/8 pully, cam specs are the same as the zz430 cam. Not sure what they are, and the compression is 8.9-1.

[ProdigyCustoms]

My imediate thought was air cleaner. Also, do not under estimate drivetrain loss. I have seen many cars loose 25% on a RW dyno. So you may already be at 500HP before final tuning, which would not be that bad after all.

[mazspeed]

My imediate thought was air cleaner. Also, do not under estimate drivetrain loss. I have seen many cars loose 25% on a RW dyno. So you may already be at 500HP before final tuning, which would not be that bad after all.

I should only have around 10 to 15 percent drivetrain loss. TKO 600 with 373 gears in a 12 bolt with a true trac. We had to downsize the filter by about half from stock.

[67SuperSnake]

You might try getting cooler air from outside the engine bay, and it may allow a bigger air filter (I used a 12" long, 8 inch round conical) :

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/rsowell_2006/DSC_0051.jpg

[Blown353]

I'm also thinking air filter.

Another thing you didn't mention, although I'm sure Jody talked with you about it... what carb hat are you running?

A poor carb hat can absolutely KILL the power, it almost feels like someone cuts the fuel off when you get into the boost.

How closely was the boost watched? Any signs of belt slippage?

What kind of timing numbers are they running (initial, total, when is it all in, vacuum advance or not, and retard amount?)

As far as the discussion on vacuum lines & routing...

The fuel pressure regulator reference goes to the carb hat. You want the pressure in the float bowls to increase at a rate equal to the pressure at the top of the carb & vent tubes, since that's the pressure seen inside the float bowls.

Your timing retard box and everything else should be connected to manifold vacuum (as normal), i.e. below the carb.

[mazspeed]

I'm also thinking air filter.

Another thing you didn't mention, although I'm sure Jody talked with you about it... what carb hat are you running?

A poor carb hat can absolutely KILL the power, it almost feels like someone cuts the fuel off when you get into the boost.

How closely was the boost watched? Any signs of belt slippage?

What kind of timing numbers are they running (initial, total, when is it all in, vacuum advance or not, and retard amount?)

As far as the discussion on vacuum lines & routing...

The fuel pressure regulator reference goes to the carb hat. You want the pressure in the float bowls to increase at a rate equal to the pressure at the top of the carb & vent tubes, since that's the pressure seen inside the float bowls.

Your timing retard box and everything else should be connected to manifold vacuum (as normal), i.e. below the carb.
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o133/no65mph/IMG_0262.jpg
Ok here is the carb hat. This picture was taken a few months ago, so a lot has changed. I'm not sure of the timing numbers. I was told by a few people that the boost reference should also be on the carb hat, but there was too much fuel going in at WOT. They moved it below the carb and that made everything better. They also blocked off a power valve in the carb as well. I hope this answers some of your question, heheh

[mazspeed]

Procharger sent us a 1 inch carb hat spacer, because even they said that the quick curve of the carb hat was too much, but CAR had to shave it down to 1/2 inch because of hood clearences.

[chrismoe]

Mike,

Chris here. I just sent you 2 emails with pictures of my air filter setup.

Hope this helps.

Chris

[Blown353]

That hat isn't helping you, unfortunately. It's not the worst hat out there but it's far from the best hats (i.e. CSU, EV, and SDCE.)

In fact, if you were to dyno with that carb hat and 8 EGT's or WBO2's I'd bet you would be very surprised at how much the mixture varied cylinder to cylinder and would probably end up stagger jetting the carb.

A good carb hat makes tuning much easier and will also make more power.

If it was running too rich with the FPR reference off the carb hat, the correct fix is to adjust the fuel pressure and/or tune the carb-- not to move the FPR reference.

Also, what intake are you running? Looks like an RPM Air Gap. A dual plane will work with a blowthrough setup (I ran mine with one for a while) but a good single plane will have better airflow distribution, a Victor Junior is usually the hot ticket for a blowthrough SBC.

[MarkM66]

Was that $20k a typo? :_paranoid

[69bird]

I think your stock cam isn't helping you out either. You want a cam with 112-114 lobe seperation. You might want to see what that cam is.

[mazspeed]

That hat isn't helping you, unfortunately. It's not the worst hat out there but it's far from the best hats (i.e. CSU, EV, and SDCE.)

In fact, if you were to dyno with that carb hat and 8 EGT's or WBO2's I'd bet you would be very surprised at how much the mixture varied cylinder to cylinder and would probably end up stagger jetting the carb.

A good carb hat makes tuning much easier and will also make more power.

If it was running too rich with the FPR reference off the carb hat, the correct fix is to adjust the fuel pressure and/or tune the carb-- not to move the FPR reference.

Also, what intake are you running? Looks like an RPM Air Gap. A dual plane will work with a blowthrough setup (I ran mine with one for a while) but a good single plane will have better airflow distribution, a Victor Junior is usually the hot ticket for a blowthrough SBC.

Is there a better carb hat? Yes I have the air gap. Ill get with CAR about the boost reference location. Only problem is that if it's moved, then we will have to redyno the car. No big deal as it will need to be done anyways. Is the Victor Jr taller? Also, thank you for the advice as well. You guys never cease to amaze me of the knowledge in here.

[mazspeed]

Was that $20k a typo? :_paranoid
Nope. That's what everything has cost on this end so far.

[mazspeed]

I think your stock cam isn't helping you out either. You want a cam with 112-114 lobe seperation. You might want to see what that cam is.

It's not the ideal cam, but it is the hot cam, so it should be better then a stock cam.

[68protouring454]

It's not the ideal cam, but it is the hot cam, so it should be better then a stock cam.
you did all that work and did not match the cam?

[camcojb]

They had the boost reference on the carb hat, and it was running too rich at WOT. When they moved it, that's when they saw better A/F readings. The timing is what you are referring too, spot on.


the boost reference for the fp regulator must be in the hat. That could be the dying issue you saw. The reason for this is becuase the carb is seeing extra pressure even when you're not in boost. If you do not compensate the fuel pressure regulator then the hat may see 4-5 psi even when the motor is not seeing boost, and the 6 psi of base fuel pressure you have will now be only 1-2 psi, due to the pressure in the bowls reducing the fuel pressure the carb sees.

You must move that back to the hat, it needs to rise evenly with what the top of the carb sees or you're going to be chasing dying and tuning issues forever. The boost gauge goes under the throttle blades, but not the fuel pressure reference. If it's still too rich you need to tune the carb.

Jody

[mazspeed]

the boost reference for the fp regulator must be in the hat. That could be the dying issue you saw. The reason for this is becuase the carb is seeing extra pressure even when you're not in boost. If you do not compensate the fuel pressure regulator then the hat may see 4-5 psi even when the motor is not seeing boost, and the 6 psi of base fuel pressure you have will now be only 1-2 psi, due to the pressure in the bowls reducing the fuel pressure the carb sees.

You must move that back to the hat, it needs to rise evenly with what the top of the carb sees or you're going to be chasing dying and tuning issues forever. The boost gauge goes under the throttle blades, but not the fuel pressure reference. If it's still too rich you need to tune the carb.

Jody

Hey Jody, got your IM. I think they did pulls with the boost reference on the carb, that's when they had problems. I don't pretend to know about this stuff though. I know there were running really rich with the boost ref on the carb. I just sent Mark, the tuner the info from this thread and what you guys have been saying. I think they had the boost reference on the back of the hat, not on top. Does it need to be on top of the hat?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Actually the cam specs were not to bad. We are not looking to rotate the earth here, just make some good power.

As for HP loss.

10% to 15% is not always true. I have seen documented losses of way more then 15% right before my eyes, with engine dynoed, then wheel dynoed, then raced projects.

A few case and facts.

Case one. Michael's Prodigy. On a Friday afternoon at 96 degrees on the engine dyno it made 684HP, 2 days later, Sunday afternoon at 95 degrees it made 455HP at the wheels. This is a TKO, 3.73 car. Also, for performance reference. The following Saturday in Pigeon Forge we were running 97MPH trap speeds in the 1/8. Prodigy has since run 101MPH 1/8 mile traps spinning the tires. For reference, My street racer was running 99MPH in Pigeon Forge and runs 100MPH at the 1/8 mile on motor at home.

Case 2, My Just Bring It street racer. Made 645HP on motor on the engine dyno (a different engine dyno), made 414HP to the tires (same dyno as Prodigy). It is a automatic TH350. For reference, My street racer runs 10.70s, 126MPH in the quarter, 100MPH in the 1/8. Also, it made 635HP to the tires on nitrous, and run 9.30s @ 146MPH

Case 3, Parson Chevy 2, Made 635HP on the yet another different engine dyno, made 440HP on the same wheel dyno as Prodigy and my Just Bring It street racer. It is also a TKO, 3.73 car. Parsons car has not run a quarter yet, but I have some seat time. It will run right beside Prodigy, which is capable of 125MPH + trap speed if they would let us run it out the door. Also, on a roll, say 30MPH, all 3 of these cars would hang very close together as long as they all hooked up.

Is the dyno we are using soft? Maybe, but the street racer went to another wheel dyno and did 428HP, so no big gain dyno to dyno. So long story short, we do not sweat these numbers anymore. But we do not race dynos either.

[mazspeed]

Actually the cam specs were not to bad. We are not looking to rotate the earth here, just make some good power.

As for HP loss.

10% to 15% is not always true. I have seen documented losses of way more then 15% right before my eyes, with engine dynoed, then wheel dynoed, then raced projects.

A few case and facts.

Case one. Michael's Prodigy. On a Friday afternoon at 96 degrees on the engine dyno it made 684HP, 2 days later, Sunday afternoon at 95 degrees it made 455HP at the wheels. This is a TKO, 3.73 car. Also, for performance reference. The following Saturday in Pigeon Forge we were running 97MPH trap speeds in the 1/8. Prodigy has since run 101MPH 1/8 mile traps spinning the tires. For reference, My street racer was running 99MPH in Pigeon Forge and runs 100MPH at the 1/8 mile on motor at home.

Case 2, My street racer. Made 645HP on motor on the engine dyno (a different engine dyno), made 414HP to the tires (same dyno as Prodigy). It is a automatic TH350. For reference, My street racer runs 10.70s, 126MPH in the quarter, 100MPH in the 1/8. Also, it made 635HP to the tires on nitrous, and run 9.30s @ 146MPH

Case 3, Parson Chevy 2, Made 635HP on the yet another different engine dyno, made 440HP on the same wheel dyno as prodigy and my Just bring It street racer. It is also a TKO, 3.73 car. Parsons car has not run a quarter, but I have some seat time. It will run right beside Prodigy, which is capable of 125MPH + trap speed if they would let us run it out the door. Also, on a roll, say 30MPH, all 3 of these cars would hang very close together as long as they all hooked up.

Is the dyno we are using soft? Maybe, but the street racer went to another wheel dyno and did 428HP, so no big gain dyno to dyno. So long story short, we do not sweat these numbers anymore. But we do not race dynos either.

I don't dont these numbers and issues, but seat of the pants feel is that the car is no faster then it was with the stock zz430. I'm not sure about soft dyno's. What does that mean?

[ProdigyCustoms]

By soft dyno I mean one giving low numbers. As for seat of the pants, no dought it should feel faster. Keep in mind though on motor alone, asuming your nor really getting boost, droping compression will have taken a lot out of it.. So try some of these trick, you will be amazed what a difference some of this stuff will make.

BTW, what RPM is peak HP? I would expect it in the 6200 range, give or take a couple hundred?

[Blown353]

Is there a better carb hat?

You bet, but they're probably taller and may give you hood clearance issues.

Good hats:

CSU
Extreme Velocity
SDCE

I am partial to the SDCE hat (and not just because a friend designed it, he forwarded me a lot of test info and that's why I'm partial to it) and it is probably the lowest-profile option of the three. Honestly all 3 are good choices and far better than any of the ATI hats.

You can see the EV and SDCE hats here: http://www.superiorairflow.com/extreme_velocity.htm

As far as your car dying when coasting down from higher RPM, Jody hit the nail on the head. If you have the FPR reference hooked up below the carb, at high RPM overrun there will still be air stacked up in the hat & float bowls and insufficient fuel pressure to keep the bowls filled since the FPR is referencing off manifold vacuum at that time (lowering fuel pressure) when in fact it needs to increase fuel pressure to offset the pressure that's still in the hat. With the reference line in the hat your fuel pressure will always be at your base pressure setting + whatever pressure is in the hat, keeping the fuel pressure balanced against hat pressure.

[TOM NELSON]

340 to the ground is probally about 460 hp.I would check a couple of things one do you have 9 pounds in the manifold at your peak rpm serpentines will slip and if it does the car will feel soft as hell.Two with 9 psi even on a 8.5 to 1 350 with the hot cam you should be making at the very least 580 hp crank and you would definately feel that.I'm not sure if you said your transmission but if it's a auto are you sure it's not sliping,just a thought.Run a compression check on all cylinders see if there within 10 percent of each other and at least 110 pounds cranking.If you have that than i doubt it's in the motor.I've had problems with the procharger units I actually have not used your blower before though but in the past there smaller blowers just did not cut it.I had a 383 with a blower i believe was similar to yours lay down 310 to the ground.We changed pulleys you name it.Not big improvements .Switched to a ysi vortech it picked up 400 hp.and made 710 to the ground and the cam was much smaller than your hot cam.I had good luck with there bigger units like the f2's but even there above 10 psi they really start making heat fast.Ignition Timing can be a huge deal on a 8.5 to 1 motor I've seen 100hp from 25 to 35 degrees the low compression engines like timing at 9 psi and only 6000 rpm But beware carbs timing and boost is a scary deal.If it was mine and i felt good about the tuner i would not shy away from 35degrees total timing at 9si and 6000 rpm this can literally transform the engine.Again beware creap up on it.I would for ****s put some 110 in it and put total at 35 dgrees and see what happens given afr's are in the high 11's low 12's.Hope you fiqure it out

[camcojb]

340 to the ground is probally about 460 hp.I would check a couple of things one do you have 9 pounds in the manifold at your peak rpm serpentines will slip and if it does the car will feel soft as hell.Two with 9 psi even on a 8.5 to 1 350 with the hot cam you should be making at the very least 580 hp crank and you would definately feel that.I'm not sure if you said your transmission but if it's a auto are you sure it's not sliping,just a thought.Run a compression check on all cylinders see if there within 10 percent of each other and at least 110 pounds cranking.If you have that than i doubt it's in the motor.I've had problems with the procharger units I actually have not used your blower before though but in the past there smaller blowers just did not cut it.I had a 383 with a blower i believe was similar to yours lay down 310 to the ground.We changed pulleys you name it.Not big improvements .Switched to a ysi vortech it picked up 400 hp.and made 710 to the ground and the cam was much smaller than your hot cam.I had good luck with there bigger units like the f2's but even there above 10 psi they really start making heat fast.Ignition Timing can be a huge deal on a 8.5 to 1 motor I've seen 100hp from 25 to 35 degrees the low compression engines like timing at 9 psi and only 6000 rpm But beware carbs timing and boost is a scary deal.If it was mine and i felt good about the tuner i would not shy away from 35degrees total timing at 9si and 6000 rpm this can literally transform the engine.Again beware creap up on it.I would for ****s put some 110 in it and put total at 35 dgrees and see what happens given afr's are in the high 11's low 12's.Hope you fiqure it out

Tom, with his BTM he's only got about 15 degrees of timing at WOT and full boost. I think this is a huge power killer, and gave the dyno guy a couple other things to try. Bottom line, he's got to get more timing in the thing, if that takes water injection or whatever.

Jody

[mazspeed]

Tom, with his BTM he's only got about 15 degrees of timing at WOT and full boost. I think this is a huge power killer, and gave the dyno guy a couple other things to try. Bottom line, he's got to get more timing in the thing, if that takes water injection or whatever.

Jody

Hey Jody, do you think with better cooler airflow, would allow for higher timing settings?

[camcojb]

Hey Jody, do you think with better cooler airflow, would allow for higher timing settings?

absolutely. Cooler air (through intercooling, water-alcohol injection, and to a degree a cold air intake) will all allow more timing and/or boost.

Jody

[Blown353]

15 degrees is VERY low timing. I would keep bumping it up and keep a close eye on the power numbers and the plugs. I'd be willing to bet it will run best somewhere between 24 and 30 degrees under boost on 91 octane. You're probably leaving 75-100hp on the table running only 15 degrees of timing under boost.

What heatrange plugs are you running? Keep an eye on that too as you bump up the timing. If your heads use 3/4 reach gasketed plugs I'd say you will probably end up with something equivalent to an NGK BKR6ES, that should be about right for that compression and 9 psi of boost. Maybe even one step hotter at 5ES, but start with the colder ones.

With my blowthrough carb setup on 91 octane I was running the distributor locked at 36 degrees, plus another 14 degrees possible with vacuum advance. The BTM box pulled it down to 27 degrees at 15 psi of boost. That's with 15 psi of boost, no intercooler, 9.25:1 compression, and water injection.

Another thing, don't trust the knob on the BTM. Start the engine and run it and use a hand pump with an accurate gauge to apply pressure to the BTM at your maximum boost level, then adjust the knob to your desired timing number while watching the pointer with a timing light. Obviously, do this with your vacuum advance disconnected and at a high enough RPM so the distributor is "all in" if you have the centrifugal advance hooked up. The numbers on the knob aren't really that accurate. In the ballpark, yes, but not exact. I did this on my BTM and made new tick marks on the knob every 0.5 degrees per PSI of *actual* retard as verified by the hand pump and timing light.

[mazspeed]

absolutely. Cooler air (through intercooling, water-alcohol injection, and to a degree a cold air intake) will all allow more timing and/or boost.

Jody

Ok second question, would more airflow allow for more timing even if it's the same temp?

[mazspeed]

15 degrees is VERY low timing. I would keep bumping it up and keep a close eye on the power numbers and the plugs. I'd be willing to bet it will run best somewhere between 24 and 30 degrees under boost on 91 octane. You're probably leaving 75-100hp on the table running only 15 degrees of timing under boost.

What heatrange plugs are you running? Keep an eye on that too as you bump up the timing.

With my blowthrough carb setup on 91 octane I was running the distributor locked at 36 degrees, plus another 14 degrees possible with vacuum advance. The BTM box pulled it down to 27 degrees at 15 psi of boost. That's with 15 psi of boost, no intercooler, 9.25:1 compression, and water injection.

Another thing, don't trust the knob on the BTM. Start the engine and run it and use a hand pump with an accurate gauge to apply pressure to it to the BTM simulate your maximum boost, then adjust the knob to your desired timing number while watching the pointer with a timing light. The numbers on the knob aren't really that accurate. In the ballpark, yes, but not exact.

I agree with the knob, but I do have fast burn heads. Do you think that the fast burn heads require less timing under boost? I heard that they do under N/A.

[Blown353]

I agree with the knob, but I do have fast burn heads. Do you think that the fast burn heads require less timing under boost? I heard that they do under N/A.

I've never messed with fastburns and boost, but N/A they seem to work well with about 2-4 degrees less timing than a "standard" chamber 23 degree head. I would venture to guess they would also need slightly less timing under boost as well, but probably not 15 degrees low.

However, the only way to tell is to make more passes and keep a close eye on the plugs. Being non-intercooled I'd keep the AFR in the 11.7-11.8:1 range. If the AFR holds steady then add timing and make another pull then check the plugs and look for signs of detonation. If things look good, add more timing and repeat as necessary. Be sure to check ALL the plugs. When I was running my RPM Air-Gap in blowthrough I recall 2 cylinders being leaner than the others so I had to tune for those two cylinders. It was 1 on each bank that was leaner than the rest. I can't remember which unfortunately. That's where the single plane will help.

I'd be real interested to see what your EGT's are with 15 degrees of timing. :willy:

[mazspeed]

Took off the filter and gained 37hp. Also it was much cooler today. It was not the filter. Car is going back to Campbell today. I have no idea what to do at this point.

[Blown353]

Took off the filter and gained 37hp. Also it was much cooler today. It was not the filter. Car is going back to Campbell today. I have no idea what to do at this point.

37hp gain just by removing the air filter is good. Did they also try a pull in the cooler air with the filter on?

I'm still guessing there's another 50+ hp on the table with the timing so low at 15 degrees.

[mazspeed]

37hp gain just by removing the air filter is good. Did they also try a pull in the cooler air with the filter on?

I'm still guessing there's another 50+ hp on the table with the timing so low at 15 degrees.

37hp was because they did it in the morning on a cold run. once everything is heat soaked the power would drop again. There should be 150 left on the table. We should have 500ft pounds at the wheels with this boost and engine configuration.

[camcojb]

do not underestimate the power loss of no timing. Have them switch it over to the 104 fuel and put the 28 degrees in with no retard. Then you'll know where you could be with water injection. As a matter of fact, I can't believe you cannot run 30-32 degrees with that boost level and 104 octane gas.

Jody

[Steve Chryssos]

....I have no idea what to do at this point.

Get Jody to put on his cape & tights and fly over.

[mazspeed]

do not underestimate the power loss of no timing. Have them switch it over to the 104 fuel and put the 28 degrees in with no retard. Then you'll know where you could be with water injection. As a matter of fact, I can't believe you cannot run 30-32 degrees with that boost level and 104 octane gas.

Jody
Hey Jody. I'm aware of the fast burn heads not needing as much timing as other setups, but I do not know if this is also the case with a boosted setup. Ill ask them to do that today.

[mazspeed]

Get Jody to put on his cape & tights and fly over.

I wish.

[Blown353]

Hell, I'd drive over there today if I wasn't stuck here at work. I'm only about 85 miles away from Campbell and Jody's only about another 15 miles further than me.

He would have to ride in the trunk though if he was wearing a cape and tights. :lol:

[mazspeed]

Hell, I'd drive over there today if I wasn't stuck here at work. I'm only about 85 miles away from Campbell and Jody's only about another 15 miles further than me.

He would have to ride in the trunk though if he was wearing a cape and tights. :lol:

heheh :lol:

I think though that I'm just going to sell it and get out of the car game. It has been really bugging me to the point of where I cannot sleep at night, and I have a family and a company to run and I just cannot deal with this car anymore.

[Steve Chryssos]

I agree with the knob, but I do have fast burn heads. Do you think that the fast burn heads require less timing under boost? I heard that they do under N/A.

Don't get distracted, your heads are fine. Fast-burn simply means kidney bean shaped chamber as opposed to old school open style. The shape helps move the combustion process towards the spark plug and then exhaust valve, thereby aiding, or speeding up, the process of moving the mixture in, burning it, and pushing it out. So the logic is reversed: Fast burn heads can accomplish the same goals with less timing. Doesn't mean they can't tolerate timing.

Mike,
Sounds like you have some real good help in your neck of the woods. Focus on problems associated with your blower install. Collect your data and get with ProCharger and the Carb Shop.

[67SuperSnake]

I realize I have a totally different motor (427FE, Fast EFI, etc), but 15 degrees timing is very low. I am running 38 degrees, 10lbs boost, EFI backs out 1 degree for every pound of boost. Using Diamond blower pistons. NGK BKR6ES (I think this is the same plug I am using, but for sure a 6).

Remember that engines are just big air pumps. Everything you have in the way of intake or exhaust restrictions can and will affect it to some degree. I know a guy who has an engine dyno in his garage and does a lot of testing on S/C. He just changed the hat from a lower type to a well round type and gained 100hp.

Similar to this one:

http://www.stevemorrisracingengines.com/images/carb-hat-1.jpg

[rich-allen]

heheh :lol:

I think though that I'm just going to sell it and get out of the car game. It has been really bugging me to the point of where I cannot sleep at night, and I have a family and a company to run and I just cannot deal with this car anymore.

Oh dammit man!!! Don't give up on her yet. Obviously you have a lot of time and money into this project, hell just look at the website you built with all those pictures!

You probably can't sleep because you love that car and you want it to perform like you dreamed of it performing the entire time.. If your seriously at the point of throwing in the towel, put it on a trailer and send it to someone who can tune it properly. When it's finished have them send it back.

Rich

[TOM NELSON]

15 degrees of timing not only is it not enough it's not safe it will hold to much heat and want to pop the head gaskets.From 15 degrees to a very safe 32 degrees with gas you will ****tttt yourself on the difference.Give it a try.Disconnect the boost retard completely set the total timing to 32 degrees look at the light yourself so you no for sure its there .to be sure make sure the motor is at 3500 to 4000 rpm when your setting the timing and if you have vac advance unplug it when setting.Pour some high test over 100 octane and let it rip.The fast burn head gives you a advantage of being able to run more timing if wanted.This motor on 91 should easily be able to run 30 degrees safely at 8.5 to 1 at 9 pounds.You would freak out if you saw a timing curve i run at 38 psi.Ive run as much as 40 it all depends on the motor but 15 not enough.I think weve all been where your at one time or another.When i first started making turbo engines i listened to all the turbo experts and built probally 6 different engines and burned 100's of gallons of racing fuel to only make 600hp with a tt sbc.I just about threw in the towel.It sucks but you will get it the parts are there and 500ft to the tire should be no problem at all.try the timing first.If no improvement compression it.If you like feel free to call me Have a good one Tom

[mazspeed]

Oh dammit man!!! Don't give up on her yet. Obviously you have a lot of time and money into this project, hell just look at the website you built with all those pictures!

You probably can't sleep because you love that car and you want it to perform like you dreamed of it performing the entire time.. If your seriously at the point of throwing in the towel, put it on a trailer and send it to someone who can tune it properly. When it's finished have them send it back.

Rich

Hey Rich, thanks for the words, but I can no longer afford this car in the way it's going. It's going to cost a lot more money and time to fix and I just don't have it in me to continue. I just spent 15k for a rehab facility for my sister yesterday for her alcohol and drug problems, work is a little slow this summer with the housing market the way it is, and I just cannot continue to move foward with this nightmare any longer. CAR is going to want to charge me god knows what to fix this for something that should have been thought about before we went forward with this. I don't think the car is going to be reliable when it's done if it's ever done. And I don't think Ill ever get a chance to enjoy the car this year, I think it's just time to cut my losses. I don't know what else to do.

[Rob07002]

Mike, don't lose faith, your car is awsome!

We've all been ready to throw in the towel at least once. Take comfort in knowing you have lots of support here and real pro's like Tom willing to offer advice and time.

Take a mini-vacation from her and jump back in, in a few weeks.

I wish I knew more to help you, but I am blower-dumb.

[GT500KR_Vert]

Don't give up, getting these cars right or even finished is stressful and a PITA. I've been wokring on mine for 3 years. The hardest part is getting the guys who do work on it to do it right and actually put the time in to get it done.

Hey Rich, thanks for the words, but I can no longer afford this car in the way it's going. It's going to cost a lot more money and time to fix and I just don't have it in me to continue. I just spent 15k for a rehab facility for my sister yesterday for her alcohol and drug problems, work is a little slow this summer with the housing market the way it is, and I just cannot continue to move foward with this nightmare any longer. CAR is going to want to charge me god knows what to fix this for something that should have been thought about before we went forward with this. I don't think the car is going to be reliable when it's done if it's ever done. And I don't think Ill ever get a chance to enjoy the car this year, I think it's just time to cut my losses. I don't know what else to do.

[3kidsnotime]

I havent been on in quite some time, I see anything on ATI (procharger) I feel I need to chine in... I hope you dont give up on the car stick it in the corner for a week and forget about it.. sometimes it needs to be done.
Your getting alot of great advice on this Tom has some greas input as well as Jody, I have literally sold and installed hundreads of these units more in the marine field but also in automotive as well and just about any internal combustion engine i could mess with. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=68611071 I have alot of pics on there you can look at. I also did some R&D for Dan Jones when he started the company for a number of years and its a great product you just need to cover some basics. All the input your getting is great I wont knock any just tell you some basics to fallow on a carb deal.
1 Boost read it after vacume.
2 Fuel boost reference before vacume make sure your at 1 extra pound fuel for every pound of boost.
3 Timing dont go too low you will hurt it worse. I like to lock out on 29 total I do not take timing out under 28 under psi your engine should be just fine.
4 Make sure your belt is tight VERY TIGHT Comon Problem!
5 Remember it takes power to turn your head unit low boost might only be making the added power to turn it hence almost equal from the begining so a slipping belt will just make it fall on its face at RPM
Those are some of the top problems we see your base engine is just fine for adding psi to it and they are very easy to tune most people over think it and miss the obvious.
I would go out crank the timing up make sure the belt is very tight and take it for a burn down the street Good Luck Jeff

[rich-allen]

If things are getting that scary, maybe you should put the car in the garage and cover it up for a month or two. It wont hurt you to store it until you come to a final decision.
Selling the car sounds easy but you will stir up an entirely different set a emotions and problems when you actually do it. There's not a lot of people with the cash to buy someones dream.

Last time I checked, a mans dream is worth quite a bit of money. :yes:


I hope everything works out for you,

Rich

[ProdigyCustoms]

Just a thought. With all the offers of help. Why not accept 353 or Jody's help and see if one of them could spend a day with you at the dyno. Taking it to Campbell, to adjust tiing is crazy. I know those are great guys, but you have a few serious ProCharger experts throwing advice your way.

I bet it is a hell of a lot less money to pay 353s fuel then one hour in a shop.

[Rybar]

Just a thought. With all the offers of help. Why not accept 353 or Jody's help and see if one of them could spend a day with you at the dyno. Taking it to Campbell, to adjust tiing is crazy. I know those are great guys, but you have a few serious ProCharger experts throwing advice your way.

I bet it is a hell of a lot less money to pay 353s fuel then one hour in a shop.

I agree with Frank, ask for help from some friends and this board, you never know how much labor some beer and food can buy you. Good luck with the motor Mike, but don't give up so fast, you have an awesome car and were all supporting you and trying to help. :cheers:

[69bird]

I don't live far away and in the san jose area for work all the time. I'm a hvac contractor I see your a electrical contractor. I would be willing to help you out anyway I can. I was ready to give up on my car too before or go to a ls1.Sometimes a new set of eyes on a problem is a good thing. I have a simlar setup on my firebird. I did go to efi because my carb was giving me a hard time. Heres a pic of my setup.

[V8TV]

I understand how you probably want to drive this thing off a cliff, but you'll probably be more upset if you sell it.

Perhaps the most aggravating thing is how you thought it was going to be right from the beginning, and now you have to go back and mess with it more! But unfortunately, that can be part of the game. Heck, it seems I have to do everything twice... at LEAST twice!

But the payoff is when it all comes together.

Don't overlook the basics, too. Triple check everything. I've personally seen a C5 Corvette with a Vortech pick up 65 HP (yes, 65!) just by letting it cool, changing to cheap NGK plugs over platinums, and adding a few degrees of timing.

Saw the same thing happen at a tune session with the SN65 Mustang. Temp, plugs, and timing added a big jump.

Seeing that this is all chassis dyno, how's the clutch?

You are getting some great advice from some real experts here - hang in there, and you'll be rewarded when you figure it out. And not to sound like a d***, but if you do have to sell it, you'll get more $ with a bigger dyno sheet!

- KO

[69bird]

Just wondering what kind of fuel system are you running?

[youthpastor]

I agree with just about every post

don't think so hard...the car is killer (we've all been there- take a break)

15 degrees is not enough to move my lawn mower, MAJOR power killer and heat producer

it is JUST an air pump- u gotta get the spark there to make the thing rev..

I would hate to see you sell the car (you have inspired a lot of us with the build)
still working on my 68. I know the whole wheel issue would have been enough for me, but hang in there:thumbsup:

[jeff s]

Does the carb still have a choke housing on it?
If so, with that low hat, there will be a huge restriction.
I've also seen 60-100 rwhp increase with a little more timing on a boosted engine.

[Blown353]

Does the carb still have a choke housing on it?
If so, with that low hat, there will be a huge restriction.
I've also seen 60 rwhp increase with a little more timing on a boosted engine.

Jeff, I don't believe that ATI low hat will even fit if the choke housing is still in place... it's only about 1" off the sealing flange of the carb on the inside... But that's still a good question.

As I mentioned several pages ago, even if the current and obviously major problem isn't directly related to that carb hat he could pick up quite a bit of power by going to a good hat. That ATI low hat is pretty mediocre.

[markss28]

dude do not get rid of it you really dont need to spend any money at all. Try th timing in the garage and take it out for a spin this is very simple to do and you should feel the power kick in. Yu are right at the point where most of us would like to be.

stick with it stick with it stick with it stick with it stick with it stick with it

[V8TV]

Yu are right at the point where most of us would like to be.

stick with it stick with it stick with it stick with it stick with it stick with it
:cheers:

[mdprovee]

Mike,

Just set the car aside for a while...I too have been frustrated..it's been 14 years since mine was running. Keep your chin up, and take a break.

Besides the new owner may not give me a ride.

[JamesJ]

You have gotten 76 replys in 28 hours, that says people care. It was said before i bet some members would love to come to your house this weekend and help you with it. the only problem is they may not leave!

[Ummgawa]

Mike

You have guys here that are in magazines every month. Guys that hang out with the Big Dogs in our hobby. You have heard from a good amount of those here. Listen to them. All I can offer is this: Park it in a cool dry spot and let it sit until this passes. There are a lot of us with high 5 figures in a car that we have not even heard run yet. You are so far past the majority of us. Hang in there man, take some offers of help, or cover it and sit it in the corner. Trust me, if you sell, the guy that gets the deal will go that extra inch you need right now and have a wicked killer ride THAT YOU BUILT!

[68protouring454]

take members help, obviously c.a.r.s did not do anyhomework setting the motor up, as any guys i talk to say the ati hats suck, you'll get it, i would just talk to them about the situation, you did not build it to have these issues, goodluck its probably still pissed at you for doing those donuts near traffic!!

[kp.touring]

Well I've been quite, but here I go. In re-but to no doing our home work were do you get off with that. People are throw theirr 2 cents in and those ideas were look at from the start. What we have here is a packaging problem, there is no room for a taller hat over the carb. We know the hat is not helping power, also a single plan intake would work better and ducting the air inlet to get air from outside the car would be awesome, but now we are back to packaging. The other thing is Ca's crap gas we may have 91 oct but it doesn't have the btu's that other areas have so yes our numbers are not going to be those high earth shaking numbers.
Bottom line is Mike's car does have more in it, given time to tune and add some way to cool the air inlet charge it will get there as this was the car's first tuning on the Super Flow dyno. And just a note with anymore timing the engine started to pre-ignite, so we are looking strongly at water injection.
Wish we had room for a intercooler.
Kevin
C.A.R.

[68protouring454]

goodluck mike, i would get jodys help, your not getting much anywhere else.

[camcojb]

Well I've been quite, but here I go. In re-but to no doing our home work were do you get off with that. People are throw theirr 2 cents in and those ideas were look at from the start. What we have here is a packaging problem, there is no room for a taller hat over the carb. We know the hat is not helping power, also a single plan intake would work better and ducting the air inlet to get air from outside the car would be awesome, but now we are back to packaging. The other thing is Ca's crap gas we may have 91 oct but it doesn't have the btu's that other areas have so yes our numbers are not going to be those high earth shaking numbers.
Bottom line is Mike's car does have more in it, given time to tune and add some way to cool the air inlet charge it will get there as this was the car's first tuning on the Super Flow dyno. And just a note with anymore timing the engine started to pre-ignite, so we are looking strongly at water injection.
Wish we had room for a intercooler.
Kevin
C.A.R.


thanks Kevin. There are a lot of factors going on here, and it will make more power if Mike decides to make some changes.

Jody

[kp.touring]

Thanks Jody! We have been looking at all options and I thank you for your helpful input.
Kevin

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey Rich, thanks for the words, but I can no longer afford this car in the way it's going. It's going to cost a lot more money and time to fix and I just don't have it in me to continue. I just spent 15k for a rehab facility for my sister yesterday for her alcohol and drug problems, work is a little slow this summer with the housing market the way it is, and I just cannot continue to move foward with this nightmare any longer. CAR is going to want to charge me god knows what to fix this for something that should have been thought about before we went forward with this. I don't think the car is going to be reliable when it's done if it's ever done. And I don't think Ill ever get a chance to enjoy the car this year, I think it's just time to cut my losses. I don't know what else to do.

Hey! If I'm not allowed to give up after my project is wrecked right after getting on the road then you're not allowed to give up either!!!

Just take a deep breath and work it out, you have a lot of people here that want to help and I'm sure CAR will stand by their work.

It's easy to give up, but far more rewarding to push through till the end. :yes:

[mazspeed]

Hey Guys. I went down to CAR today and had a long but productive conversation with Tom today. It's not a they don't know or don't care thing, but a frustrating time consuming, money dropping situation for me. I have had problem after problem with this car from the get go. This car has had a lot of problems due to changes we made and other issues that have come up. I'm mad and upset at a few things and none of those are Kevin or Tom's fault. It's just hard watching the car take one step forward and two steps back. I was really hoping to enjoy the car at length this year and that's not going to happen, and it's hard to digest the amount of money that I have put into this car, and it still remains a paperweight. I counted up all my receipts today and I have 204k and it can't get out of it's own way. There are still so many issues with this thing that I do just want to cut bait and run and take my losses and move on. I spoke to my wife about it, I spoke to Steve Brosco about it and others today and tonight about what I want to do. Everyone has said that I should take a few steps back and just have the car fixed and keep it, as I would kick myself if I sold it. Thing is, I just don't care anymore, and after looking at it today knowing the problems it has, I would not feel bad if I sold it. Right now I hate this car. I hate the fact that I have to spend money I don't have to make it right, and to be honest I don't think it will ever be right. I take a hard turn it stalls, I stop fast it stalls. The clutch needs Godzilla to depress, the driver side rear wheel is bent, there are water leaks, fuel leaks, it just isn't what I had in mind when I first got started with the second rebuild of this car. I don't wish to rant about this or that, but I’m honestly having difficult sleeping, and it's effecting me in all fascists of life right now. I cannot get my mind off the fact that no matter what is done to the car, it's not going to be right. I just cannot deal with this car.

[mazspeed]

goodluck mike, i would get jodys help, your not getting much anywhere else.

Well Jake I am getting help, it's just not what I had in mind. This project is just beyond everyone at this point.

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey Guys. I went down to CAR today and had a long but productive conversation with Tom today. It's not a they don't know or don't care thing, but a frustrating time consuming, money dropping situation for me. I have had problem after problem with this car from the get go. This car has had a lot of problems due to changes we made and other issues that have come up. I'm mad and upset at a few things and none of those are Kevin or Tom's fault. It's just hard watching the car take one step forward and two steps back. I was really hoping to enjoy the car at length this year and that's not going to happen, and it's hard to digest the amount of money that I have put into this car, and it still remains a paperweight. I counted up all my receipts today and I have 204k and it can't get out of it's own way. There are still so many issues with this thing that I do just want to cut bait and run and take my losses and move on. I spoke to my wife about it, I spoke to Steve Brosco about it and others today and tonight about what I want to do. Everyone has said that I should take a few steps back and just have the car fixed and keep it, as I would kick myself if I sold it. Thing is, I just don't care anymore, and after looking at it today knowing the problems it has, I would not feel bad if I sold it. Right now I hate this car. I hate the fact that I have to spend money I don't have to make it right, and to be honest I don't think it will ever be right. I take a hard turn it stalls, I stop fast it stalls. The clutch needs Godzilla to depress, it just isn't what I had in mind when I first got started with the second rebuild of this car. I don't wish to rant about this or that, but I’m honestly having difficult sleeping, and it's effecting me in all fascists of life right now. I cannot get my mind off the fact that no matter what is done to the car, it's not going to be right. I just cannot deal with this car.

Well, you forgot one option.. and while it's drastic it sure beats selling it.

Sell the supercharger and spend that cash to just put a good old reliable and easy to tune carb and intake on it.. The money made on the blower sale should more than cover the parts and install of a carb.

It's not as sexy, but the car will still be a blast to drive. I would HATE to see you sell her, I have plans to terrorize shows with you.. someday... hey, you still might have yours on the road before mine ;)

Hang in there.. one way or another it will work out. If it was easy everyone would have a hot rod.

[mazspeed]

Hey! If I'm not allowed to give up after my project is wrecked right after getting on the road then you're not allowed to give up either!!!

Just take a deep breath and work it out, you have a lot of people here that want to help and I'm sure CAR will stand by their work.

It's easy to give up, but far more rewarding to push through till the end. :yes:

I know you're right Steve, but I'm beaten. If I could get half my money back by crushing the car, Id push the button. I would not have to think twice about it.

[mazspeed]

Well, you forgot one option.. and while it's drastic it sure beats selling it.

Sell the supercharger and spend that cash to just put a good old reliable and easy to tune carb and intake on it.. The money made on the blower sale should more than cover the parts and install of a carb.

It's not as sexy, but the car will still be a blast to drive. I would HATE to see you sell her, I have plans to terrorize shows with you.. someday... hey, you still might have yours on the road before mine ;)

Hang in there.. one way or another it will work out. If it was easy everyone would have a hot rod.

I would Steve, and I asked Tom at CAR if he would trade my entire setup for their small block 454 engine today, and he kinda ignored me on that, but I would do that in a heartbeat. I wanted to buy that engine orginally, but they would not sell it to me. I think they are putting it in one of their shop cars down the road.

[mazspeed]

Just a thought. With all the offers of help. Why not accept 353 or Jody's help and see if one of them could spend a day with you at the dyno. Taking it to Campbell, to adjust tiing is crazy. I know those are great guys, but you have a few serious ProCharger experts throwing advice your way.

I bet it is a hell of a lot less money to pay 353s fuel then one hour in a shop.

Hey Frank. I know what you're saying buy I have a real problem asking for people to donate their time to fix a car they don't own and then to charge very little or nothing for their efforts. I just can't do that.

[R67Chevelle]

Hey Rich, thanks for the words, but I can no longer afford this car in the way it's going. It's going to cost a lot more money and time to fix and I just don't have it in me to continue. I just spent 15k for a rehab facility for my sister yesterday for her alcohol and drug problems, work is a little slow this summer with the housing market the way it is, and I just cannot continue to move foward with this nightmare any longer. CAR is going to want to charge me god knows what to fix this for something that should have been thought about before we went forward with this. I don't think the car is going to be reliable when it's done if it's ever done. And I don't think Ill ever get a chance to enjoy the car this year, I think it's just time to cut my losses. I don't know what else to do.


Man you and I sound like we have the same family, different business. I too put my son into a 45 day program the end of this past week and cost big bucks, and Im in the mortgage business (maybe I am kidding about being still being in the Mortgage business) and my plans are now on hold with my Chevelle and the 68 Camaro I was going to buy... I know what you are going through, but remember, Gods in control. Just keep moving forward. I pray for you and your family that your sister will come out clean and sober with a new life ahead. I applaud you that you have such a caring heart and willing to invest in your family and their future. If I was closer I would be on a drive up with ya to help you out. A person like you are a blessing to others and if means anything I think that all of us on Later-g (if its okay to say this for everyone else) knows you have a heart of a saint and this problem will be solved...Be patient and hang in there....:thumbsup:

Blessings,

[mazspeed]

Man you and I sound like we have the same family, different business. I too put my son into a 45 day program the end of this past week and cost big bucks, and Im in the mortgage business (maybe I am kidding about being still being in the Mortgage business) and my plans are now on hold with my Chevelle and the 68 Camaro I was going to buy... I know what you are going through, but remember, Gods in control. Just keep moving forward. I pray for you and your family that your sister will come out clean and sober with a new life ahead. I applaud you that you have such a caring heart and willing to invest in your family and their future. If I was closer I would be on a drive up with ya to help you out. A person like you are a blessing to others and if means anything I think that all of us on Later-g (if its okay to say this for everyone else) knows you have a heart of a saint and this problem will be solved...Be patient and hang in there....:thumbsup:

Blessings,

Thanks buddy, you made my day with that. But the only reason I did what I did, well 2 reasons was my sister has 5 kids, 2 of which are not doing well themselfs, thanks to my sisters poor parenting, and I was the only one with a 15k credit card limit for her rehab.

[Steve1968LS2]

Hey Frank. I know what you're saying buy I have a real problem asking for people to donate their time to fix a car they don't own and then to charge very little or nothing for their efforts. I just can't do that.

It's not a matter of asking.. it's a matter of accepting help that's offered. Our community it a "family" of sorts and what makes this hobby better than stamp collectors or others is our willingness to help each other out. No car is built individually, it's a team effort.

If CAR can't help you with a swap to a reliable engine then I'm sure there are plenty of members that would be happy to help you turn a wrench or two.. ok, maybe three. lol

The point is your car can be reliable and fun without the blower. I rather see you keep the car than ditch it and loose faith in the hobby. Later on down the line you will regret it.

[kp.touring]

Mike,
Sounds like Rupp is "calling you out", lets finish the car it is getting closer everyday and your time line isn't bad when you look at that you've almost built the car twice. Make a time to set down with Mark and Tom and map out the final options/details.
Kevin

[race-rodz]

The point is your car can be reliable and fun without the blower. I rather see you keep the car than ditch it and loose faith in the hobby. Later on down the line you will regret it.


if its a major tuning issue with the blower, and spending more money is out.... i would yank the blower belt, swap the carb, and ENJOY the car for a lil while. let things settle down before going back to tuning with the blower.


im not saying its the gonna be a blast to drive, but with the low compression....you can get away with the "cheap" gas.

[mazspeed]

Mike,
Sounds like Rupp is "calling you out", lets finish the car it is getting closer everyday and your time line isn't bad when you look at that you've almost built the car twice. Make a time to set down with Mark and Tom and map out the final options/details.
Kevin

Yeah Steve is calling me out. He kills me sometimes. ;)
Kevin, here's the problem, I'm working the next few days in Redwood City. I am bidding a large project with Steve tomorrow night, after that I'm busy with my sisters kids and my work. I don't have idle time in the next week or so, plus my now more frequent visits to the pub. I really hate the water injection idea because it's such a low buck item on that high dollar junker in your shop. But it's all I can afford, if that. As your PM said, I would do that deal, but I don't think he would. I would feel like an asshole if I asked again.

[mazspeed]

if its a major tuning issue with the blower, and spending more money is out.... i would yank the blower belt, swap the carb, and ENJOY the car for a lil while. let things settle down before going back to tuning with the blower.


im not saying its the gonna be a blast to drive, but with the low compression....you can get away with the "cheap" gas.

I need a loan just for the gas. :P

[race-rodz]

i have a 750DP i could lend ya.... i could pack the box with empty dew cans..... alum scrap is way up:thumbsup:

[mazspeed]

It's not a matter of asking.. it's a matter of accepting help that's offered. Our community it a "family" of sorts and what makes this hobby better than stamp collectors or others is our willingness to help each other out. No car is built individually, it's a team effort.

If CAR can't help you with a swap to a reliable engine then I'm sure there are plenty of members that would be happy to help you turn a wrench or two.. ok, maybe three. lol

The point is your car can be reliable and fun without the blower. I rather see you keep the car than ditch it and loose faith in the hobby. Later on down the line you will regret it.

Steve, you're 100 percent right about the muscle crowd community. It is a bunch of great guys, that's for sure. I don't mind helping others with stuff, I always do, but for some reason I have always had a big issue with others helping me. On the phone yes, but people have other things to do help with this car. for example. I have a lot of tree friends (arborists) and they say that want to trim my trees, and I say, well ok, they call to come over and I tell them to not worry about it, so what do I do, I get my 12 foot ladder out and do it myself. My trees look like ****, but at least my friends didn't have to come over and do this work for me, I just always had a problem withaccepting help from others. I'm wired weird I guess.

[mazspeed]

i have a 750DP i could lend ya.... i could pack the box with empty dew cans..... alum scrap is way up:thumbsup:
hehe
I already have one. I have 2. CAR has my other BG 750DP.

[Steve1968LS2]

but people have other things to do help with this car.

No they don't ... if they don't come help you then they get stuck at home and their wives make them do crap around the house... You owe it to your fellow men-folk to let them help so they can play with cars rather than do f'ing chores..

:cheers:

[race-rodz]

No they don't ... if they don't come help you then they get stuck at home and their wives make them do crap around the house... You owe it to your fellow men-folk to let them help so they can play with cars rather than do f'ing chores..

:cheers:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: thats funny there...i dont care who you are

[Tom.A]

No they don't ... if they don't come help you then they get stuck at home and their wives make them do crap around the house... You owe it to your fellow men-folk to let them help so they can play with cars rather than do f'ing chores..

:cheers:

Well said!, Mazspeed just another vote here to keep the car. I know this must be getting old hearing this. I think Steve's other idea to just sell the pro charger put a carb on it and drive it is also a good option. I have had similar feelings before and sold...lost my you know what on them and then was bummed. And what do I do......get married, house & two kids etc., and now I am back for more punishment. Once it is in the blood it's hard to get it out. Your car is great and you should be proud.

[mazspeed]

No they don't ... if they don't come help you then they get stuck at home and their wives make them do crap around the house... You owe it to your fellow men-folk to let them help so they can play with cars rather than do f'ing chores..

:cheers:

You kill me. :rofl:

[mazspeed]

Well said!, Mazspeed just another vote here to keep the car. I know this must be getting old hearing this. I think Steve's other idea to just sell the pro charger put a carb on it and drive it is also a good option. I have had similar feelings before and sold...lost my you know what on them and then was bummed. And what do I do......get married, house & two kids etc., and now I am back for more punishment. Once it is in the blood it's hard to get it out. Your car is great and you should be proud.

I know what you're saying, but I have to look at my pocket book too. It has cobwebs in it. The thing about selling it and being bummed would only last a few days. I built my race rx-7 by myself, it took years, but I did everything on that car. I built the motor, the chassis, the brake system, the 6 point cage, I fabracated everything. When my wife and I got togther and I decided to buy a house, so the decision was made (by me) to sell it. I felt bad when the guy drove off, but it didn't last that long, and surprised me that I didn't take it worse, and I don't look back and wish I had it back. Maybe a little, but the house was more of a priority, that's why I could part with this thing and not care.
Thank you though. :thumbsup:

[byebye67]

ive been lurking for a while, but heres my take:
1. i agree with mazspeed when he says he has to prioritize for the better of his family. his resources may need to be diverted to allow that to happen, there is no counterpoint to that.
2. lateral-g.net and its members are the most supportive and knowledgable ive ever seen. mazspeed, take them up on their offers of help, its liberating.
3. if you have the car-bug in you then if you sell this car, you will definitely buy another one in the future. i can see why people like jody, j. schwartz, t. nelson, k. oeste, and s. rupp are trying to convince you to keep this car...its sooooo close.
4. i had my camaro in line at a now famous builders shop, i chose the "cut your losses" tagline. now i regret it. it would take me to start from scratch, and getting back there again with a possible magazine car would take years and way more money now than it did then. i shouldve have kept the car because it was worth so much more to me than the money. just the joy of driving it....man that's priceless.

i apologize for preaching, but see this thing through. even if you've made mistakes dont compound them. no regrets, because you are living life to the fullest. if you can let go of a camaro (even on the verge of the release of the new one and the old ones dont grow on trees) then its not for you. but when all is said and done, i know God answers prayers and you will get through this thing.

sincerely,
kevin

[mdprovee]

Mike,

I have a hard time asking for help myself, no sure if it is pride, wanting to do it myself, or what. So I know what you are saying.

But you are sooo close with it, i would be willing to come down and turn wrneches with you, or someone else to help. We are one big community, helping one another. Take up a few offers, for maybe a few days, and see how it goes. You never know what might happen.

[rich-allen]

I don't know what CAR charges and hour but you can get some help for free if you would accept it.

There is another 3-1/2 - 4 months of good driving left in sunny Campbell Calif.
I built two projects in Campbell last year and it doesn't rain that much around there. The winter months have nice cool air and your car will appreciate that enviroment.
I'm not going to lie, $204k is an awful lot of money, but it's all the more reason to give it another month.

You've come a long way bro.

http://www.sledgehammercamaro.com/images/photos/Stage2_030.jpg




http://www.sledgehammercamaro.com/images/photos/Stage7_070.jpg

[Blown353]

YI really hate the water injection idea because it's such a low buck item on that high dollar junker in your shop.

Wow, where'd you come to that conclusion? Water injection isn't a cheap low buck item, it's a superb way of increasing the overall efficiency and BMEP of an engine when implemented correctly. Tons and tons of money and effort was poured into water injection research up until the end of the "golden era" of piston aircraft engine development and the conclusion was it works-- and works very well. Things are no different today. When done correctly you will see more overall power but with less peak combustion chamber pressures than you can achieve on fuel alone.

Heck, I still run water injection even with my new intercooler simply because of the benefits it provides-- besides the charge air temp reduction, it keeps the valves & combustion chambers cleaner, provides excellent detonation suppression, and will allow more timing to not only make more power but drop the EGT's... a lot of benefits for such a "low buck" item.

There are a lot of good progressive controllers out now. The only issues you might have is hiding the tank & pump. You could stash both the tank and pump under the inner fenders behind the bumper and never see them.

[68protouring454]

Hey Guys. I went down to CAR today and had a long but productive conversation with Tom today. It's not a they don't know or don't care thing, but a frustrating time consuming, money dropping situation for me. I have had problem after problem with this car from the get go. This car has had a lot of problems due to changes we made and other issues that have come up. I'm mad and upset at a few things and none of those are Kevin or Tom's fault. It's just hard watching the car take one step forward and two steps back. I was really hoping to enjoy the car at length this year and that's not going to happen, and it's hard to digest the amount of money that I have put into this car, and it still remains a paperweight. I counted up all my receipts today and I have 204k and it can't get out of it's own way. There are still so many issues with this thing that I do just want to cut bait and run and take my losses and move on. I spoke to my wife about it, I spoke to Steve Brosco about it and others today and tonight about what I want to do. Everyone has said that I should take a few steps back and just have the car fixed and keep it, as I would kick myself if I sold it. Thing is, I just don't care anymore, and after looking at it today knowing the problems it has, I would not feel bad if I sold it. Right now I hate this car. I hate the fact that I have to spend money I don't have to make it right, and to be honest I don't think it will ever be right. I take a hard turn it stalls, I stop fast it stalls. The clutch needs Godzilla to depress, the driver side rear wheel is bent, there are water leaks, fuel leaks, it just isn't what I had in mind when I first got started with the second rebuild of this car. I don't wish to rant about this or that, but I’m honestly having difficult sleeping, and it's effecting me in all fascists of life right now. I cannot get my mind off the fact that no matter what is done to the car, it's not going to be right. I just cannot deal with this car.
holy batman!!!

[Ummgawa]

No they don't ... if they don't come help you then they get stuck at home and their wives make them do crap around the house... You owe it to your fellow men-folk to let them help so they can play with cars rather than do f'ing chores..

:cheers:

As a matter of fact, its un American to NOT accept help from other car dudes. Well, you can just not accept our help,

BUT WE CAN NOT STAND BY AND LET YOU BAD MOUTH THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!:D

[mazspeed]

As a matter of fact, its un American to NOT accept help from other car dudes. Well, you can just not accept our help,

BUT WE CAN NOT STAND BY AND LET YOU BAD MOUTH THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!:D

Nothing better then a good ole Animal House reference. :cheers:

[chrismoe]

Well I've been quite, but here I go. In re-but to no doing our home work were do you get off with that. People are throw theirr 2 cents in and those ideas were look at from the start. What we have here is a packaging problem, there is no room for a taller hat over the carb. We know the hat is not helping power, also a single plan intake would work better and ducting the air inlet to get air from outside the car would be awesome, but now we are back to packaging. The other thing is Ca's crap gas we may have 91 oct but it doesn't have the btu's that other areas have so yes our numbers are not going to be those high earth shaking numbers.
Bottom line is Mike's car does have more in it, given time to tune and add some way to cool the air inlet charge it will get there as this was the car's first tuning on the Super Flow dyno. And just a note with anymore timing the engine started to pre-ignite, so we are looking strongly at water injection.
Wish we had room for a intercooler.
Kevin
C.A.R.

Kevin,

Why is there no room for an intercooler in Mikes car? I have the same year car, a very similar setup and I run and intercooler, mounted down low in front of the radiator. Mike has serveral pics of my setup. Is there some reason an intercooler would not work for Mike?

Chris

[mazspeed]

Well I've been quite, but here I go. In re-but to no doing our home work were do you get off with that. People are throw theirr 2 cents in and those ideas were look at from the start. What we have here is a packaging problem, there is no room for a taller hat over the carb. We know the hat is not helping power, also a single plan intake would work better and ducting the air inlet to get air from outside the car would be awesome, but now we are back to packaging. The other thing is Ca's crap gas we may have 91 oct but it doesn't have the btu's that other areas have so yes our numbers are not going to be those high earth shaking numbers.
Bottom line is Mike's car does have more in it, given time to tune and add some way to cool the air inlet charge it will get there as this was the car's first tuning on the Super Flow dyno. And just a note with anymore timing the engine started to pre-ignite, so we are looking strongly at water injection.
Wish we had room for a intercooler.
Kevin
C.A.R.

Kevin,

Why is there no room for an intercooler in Mikes car? I have the same year car, a very similar setup and I run and intercooler, mounted down low in front of the radiator. Mike has serveral pics of my setup. Is there some reason an intercooler would not work for Mike?

Chris

Money. To fab something for my car with my air con rad and my RS lights in the way, it would cost thousands more. 3, 4, 5k

[chrismoe]

Mike,

Got it. I was not accounting for your RS headlights setup. A\C would not be a problem though. At any rate, I hope you remain in the car hobby....either with this car or another one.

Take care,
Chris

[MarkM66]

holy batman!!!

Two hundered and f'ing four grand. WOW!

[Musclerodz]

I know the feeling you are having and it can be so distasteful to even think about it that it will make you pyshically ill. I don't even wish that kind of depression on people I don't like. I have had that feeling in the past with a customers aircraft restoration and all I can say is do what you feel will make this right for you and your family. Most importantly is even if the car has to go, don't leave this community of cars and great people that allow distractions from everyday life BS even if it is only for a few minutes of the day.:thumbsup:

[buickfunnycar.com]

...If it was easy everyone would have a hot rod.

Man ain't that the truth...!:thumbsup:

I have been so fed up with my '69 project I too had thoughts of selling them all off and moving on...still do sometimes,not because of the cars...just because sometimes things change,priorities change...needs change.

I personally would take a step back and listen to what others are saying.I know you want to make the blower setup work...and no doubts with enough time & money...you'll get it right:thumbsup: .Sounds like you need to put a smile on your face though...and quickly!It won't be a step backward to get it sorted out with the carb setup and it will go a long way towards getting your life back the way you want it to be.Biggest thing is to get this car running & sorted out while bringing you pleasure.There is always time later down the road as finances permit to tweak it again w/the blower.

I do believe if you off it incomplete without you realizing it's full potential after all the blood & sweat...you will regret that.

I've been there man...we all have at some point.Step away and take a deep breath...

[Vegas69]

My first car fought me tooth and nail the whole time I owned it. But for some reason it was always worth it when it was on the road. I learned alot of valuable lessons from mistakes. I finally had it just the way I wanted it and it was stolen. Once it's in your blood it doesn't go away. Now almost ten years later I am building another 1st gen and I can't wait. You do what you have to do financially, but I agree a quick decision from frustration may not be the best.

[4mm]

You know it's not too late to sell your engine and SC and later on install an LSx engine with an honest 500+hp, much less headache.

[TravisB]

You didnt count your recipts four times did you?

[mazspeed]

You know it's not too late to sell your engine and SC and later on install an LSx engine with an honest 500+hp, much less headache.

I have thought about it.

[mazspeed]

You didnt count your recipts four times did you?

Nope!

[TravisB]

Nope!
Dam.....best of luck to ya.

We have a friend that has a procharged 64 nova running a P1sc non intercooled 358 running 9lbs of boost. I am sure he would compare set ups with you if you wanted to. I know his has a cam in it for a supercharger because we got it for him.

[69bird]

Sell your carb, intake, wideband, and get a holley wideband efi set up. Your not going to get any money out of it not running right. I was in the same boat as you. I was running a carb on my blow thru set up and ready to get rid of it. I went with efi now I'm able to drive my car anywere. I'll help you out!! I live in the area. Think about it don't give up its only a car.
Email me,
[email protected]

[mazspeed]

Dam.....best of luck to ya.

We have a friend that has a procharged 64 nova running a P1sc non intercooled 358 running 9lbs of boost. I am sure he would compare set ups with you if you wanted to. I know his has a cam in it for a supercharger because we got it for him.

Thanks Travis. Yeah if you can have him, or you send me your info, this would educate me a bit more on this stuff. I know Jody has been in contact with CAR for the stuff that needs to be done, and they are both on the same page, so I might as well try it. First, a new carb hat is needed. The one we have is junk. Who makes the best carb hat? One issue with the carb hats is the end of the hat on ours sticks out straight and comes close to the hood, EV's hat has a dip at the end keeping it away from the hood, which we like. Second, we need to cool off the incoming charge. Water or NOS is an option at this point I guess, I'm just not real fond of either, just something else that can go wrong. Water is cheaper then NOS, and you can get water almost anywhere. NOS refills around here is hard to come by. Third with the cooling of the intake charge, we should be able to raise timing. How much I don't know. I just hate to have to run water as a bandaid to fix a problem like this, but at this point this is all I can think of to fix this issue. Id rather just have a 434 or 454SBC and be done with it.

[mazspeed]

Sell your carb, intake, wideband, and get a holley wideband efi set up. Your not going to get any money out of it not running right. I was in the same boat as you. I was running a carb on my blow thru set up and ready to get rid of it. I went with efi now I'm able to drive my car anywere. I'll help you out!! I live in the area. Think about it don't give up its only a car.
Email me,
[email protected]

How much are they, and how much is something like that to implement? Thank you for your offer. :thumbsup:

[69bird]

I think I spent about $2000 or so on the set up. Holley efi comander 950. Sell your carb, intake, etc.. and your halfway there. I'll pm you my ph# and we can talk.

[zbugger]

Mike, first of all, we sell nitrous at Goodies. Second, if you do go to EFI, you could talk to Paul over here. He's a great tuner. Third, good god you're going through hell right now. But take your own advice that you gave me. Be patient and it will come to you. I know you want the car done, but don't let it beat you. It seems this kind of stuff happens to a lot of guys. Just ask Jon...

[Steve1968LS2]

Thanks Travis. Yeah if you can have him, or you send me your info, this would educate me a bit more on this stuff. I know Jody has been in contact with CAR for the stuff that needs to be done, and they are both on the same page, so I might as well try it. First, a new carb hat is needed. The one we have is junk. Who makes the best carb hat? One issue with the carb hats is the end of the hat on ours sticks out straight and comes close to the hood, EV's hat has a dip at the end keeping it away from the hood, which we like. Second, we need to cool off the incoming charge. Water or NOS is an option at this point I guess, I'm just not real fond of either, just something else that can go wrong. Water is cheaper then NOS, and you can get water almost anywhere. NOS refills around here is hard to come by. Third with the cooling of the intake charge, we should be able to raise timing. How much I don't know. I just hate to have to run water as a bandaid to fix a problem like this, but at this point this is all I can think of to fix this issue. Id rather just have a 434 or 454SBC and be done with it.

I know hood clearance is an issue for you.. I have a spare 4-inch Harwood cowl hood (Penny's old hood) hanging in my garage.. you can have it for free, but it would need to be painted. I'll even bring it halfway to ya :)

Tall cowl hoods are fine if they serve a functional purpose..

[mazspeed]

I know hood clearance is an issue for you.. I have a spare 4-inch Harwood cowl hood (Penny's old hood) hanging in my garage.. you can have it for free, but it would need to be painted. I'll even bring it halfway to ya :)

Tall cowl hoods are fine if they serve a functional purpose..

That's a real nice offer Steve. It really is. It shows what kind of person you are. But I think we are going to try and keep this hood. It's a real GM hood, and I would hate to give it up right now. Tom may or may not have found a hat that might work, I think he's looking for conformation on that. One more thing I think we found out, is that my new Boyd Coddington wheel is bent. This is the replacement to the one that blew off. Less then 300 miles on it, and I noticed it on the dyno the other day. I was hoping it was the tire or axle. :mad:

[mazspeed]

Mike, first of all, we sell nitrous at Goodies. Second, if you do go to EFI, you could talk to Paul over here. He's a great tuner. Third, good god you're going through hell right now. But take your own advice that you gave me. Be patient and it will come to you. I know you want the car done, but don't let it beat you. It seems this kind of stuff happens to a lot of guys. Just ask Jon...

Id love to go with EFI. Only problem, is that it's expensive. The cost of one starts at around 2k and up, plus putting it in would be even more. It would cure all of my carb issues though. and hat isses as well. I just can't afford it right now. I would do that in a second. What kind of deals on NOS if any? :unibrow:

[907rs]

Id love to go with EFI. Only problem, is that it's expensive. The cost of one starts at around 2k and up, plus putting it in would be even more. It would cure all of my carb issues though. and hat isses as well. I just can't afford it right now. I would do that in a second. What kind of deals on NOS if any? :unibrow:

Why not do the install yourself and pay someone to tune it?

[mazspeed]

Why not do the install yourself and pay someone to tune it?

I would if I knew how. I don't pretend to know about EFI stuff. Plus, I don't have a EFI system.

[Steve1968LS2]

I would if I knew how. I don't pretend to know about EFI stuff. Plus, I don't have a EFI system.

I would think that selling your current carb, intake and supercharger would more than cover buying an EFI set-up. I'm sure many here would help with the install.

Or, as suggested, the other option is to just go to a carb and intake for now and bank the $ from the sale of the supercharger. This way you have a car to have fun with and you can "de-stress" for a while.

[FreddieCougar]

This way you have a car to have fun with and you can "de-stress" for a while.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100% with this statement. Driving it (even without the WOW factor of all the cool parts) will put a smile on your face, as will the crowd that will gather everywhere you go with a car that looks like that. You could throw a Q-Jet on that thing and still have a nicer car that most people will ever even see.
I was (am) at a similar point with my race car (as JayR can attest to) the $$ I kept throwing at it, the parts failures, and the associatied stress made me want to give up. I even contemplated selling the car, but when I sat down to attach a price to it, I physically felt ill. The car is now parked, and I will work on my street car for a couple of years. Someday I will want to race again, and the car is waiting for me. It is still in need of repair, but the foundation is there. There is no way I could build another from scratch. Don't sell the car (unless you need to do it for the good of your family) because you have a good foundation, and starting over would be 10 times as hard. and at least 10 times as expensive.
Good Luck!
Tim

[mazspeed]

I would think that selling your current carb, intake and supercharger would more than cover buying an EFI set-up. I'm sure many here would help with the install.

Or, as suggested, the other option is to just go to a carb and intake for now and bank the $ from the sale of the supercharger. This way you have a car to have fun with and you can "de-stress" for a while.

Well the only problem with this Steve is that the supercharger had to be machined to work. Pulleys where machined, and was matched for this block. Just to get it too fit had major issues that selling it might be a problem. A EFI system with this setup though might be the way to go. This carb is a nightmare to tune, and it's a pain to drive. Ill have it this weekend, and I will be taking it to this show this weekend http://carcrazypromotions.org/index.html if it makes it. I think the EFI would cure all of my drivability issues. A good intake tube would also help with intake temperatures, but making one is going to cost $$$. The hat is cheap and we are going to try that as well, but who knows how it's all going to work. I think a good EFI system would help with the timing and create a good intake for the supercharger, but again it's all money baby.

[chrismoe]

MIke,

Chris here. I am glad to hear you plan to go to Carl's show this weekend in San Mateo. Carl is a good guy and puts on a great show. What's more, you will be able to begin to feel good about your car again as I am sure folks will be diggin your Camaro.

Like everyone else is saying....hang in there, it will work out.

Chris

[dave96dcm]

Drive it out here and I will install the EFI for free, if you wanted you could also do a L98 setup from a third gen for real cheap for now then get a good efi setup later.

[rich-allen]

Drive it out here and I will install the EFI for free, if you wanted you could also do a L98 setup from a third gen for real cheap for now then get a good efi setup later.


Hell, there you go.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Mike, before you get to excited about a $2000 fuel injection set up. Unless you have a tuner that is REALLY good with that particular system, you will be on suicide watch after your FI adventure. You only think this carb is a pain in the ass until you get a FI system no one can tune. I HIGHLY suggest finding a tuner and a system they use if you even consider FI.

I have had no luck at all with "package systems" in Forced induction applications and have been forced to use more elaborate sytems like DFI, FAST, and Bigstuff, which by the time you buy everything you need will run you up into the $4000 range pretty quick.

Your not trying to push a ton of boost thorugh that carb, you should be able to find someone that can tune it.

[Blown353]

This carb is a nightmare to tune, and it's a pain to drive.

Then something is wrong.

Back when my car was blowthrough I drove it frequently, even in stop and go traffic between the central valley and the bay area quite a few times (one of those 90 miles in 3 hour trips.) My carb worked fine, A/C on, in 100 degree heat.

A good blowthrough carb will drive and perform very well. It won't have as good of economy as EFI but driveability and and power should not be an issue with a properly setup blowthrough carb.

A poor hat will kill driveability and tuneability because of poor and uneven airflow distribution even if you have the best carb prep in the world.

I would strongly suggest trying a good hat as the next logical step and from there move onto looking closer at the carb. A carb hat isn't that much money and might solve your problems.

[Tom.A]

Mike,

You may want to call these guy's and talk to them about your problems if you really think it is carb-related. We know you don't want to spend any more money but you might be able to ship the carb down to them in Ontario, California. I have not used them but I have talked to guys that had problems, called them and bought the carb that corrected the issues. Maybe they can do something on existing? here is their website http://www.customcarbs.com/Home.htm

[mazspeed]

Drive it out here and I will install the EFI for free, if you wanted you could also do a L98 setup from a third gen for real cheap for now then get a good efi setup later.

I wish I had the time to go to MA. Thanks for that great offer though. That was cool of you to do that. :cheers:

[mazspeed]

Then something is wrong.

Back when my car was blowthrough I drove it frequently, even in stop and go traffic between the central valley and the bay area quite a few times (one of those 90 miles in 3 hour trips.) My carb worked fine, A/C on, in 100 degree heat.

A good blowthrough carb will drive and perform very well. It won't have as good of economy as EFI but driveability and and power should not be an issue with a properly setup blowthrough carb.

A poor hat will kill driveability and tuneability because of poor and uneven airflow distribution even if you have the best carb prep in the world.

I would strongly suggest trying a good hat as the next logical step and from there move onto looking closer at the carb. A carb hat isn't that much money and might solve your problems.

Yeah I think you're right about that. Do you know which carb hat has worked best in the past? Hood clearence is also an issue. It's not the hat itself, but the end of the hat from the pipe that comes into it.

[69bird]

I had no prior experience with efi. With a little help from delta t at pro-touring.com (he has a 383 with a vortech and holley efi) we got it tuned. Its not a hard system and does what I need it to do. Alot of people are running this efi setup with no problems. Sorry it didnt work out for you frank. I think its a great system for the $$. Chevytalk.com has a lot of info for holley efi check it out. A member on this site is a engineer for holley. I know alot of people are running carbs with no problems but for all the money you need to spend on a carb, wideband etc.. You could go efi for a few bucks more and tune on a laptop. Better than changing jets and airbleeds.

[MarkM66]

Frank should of just talked you into one of those World all aluminum BBC. More power, less money, and less hassle. ;)

[Blown353]

Yeah I think you're right about that. Do you know which carb hat has worked best in the past? Hood clearence is also an issue. It's not the hat itself, but the end of the hat from the pipe that comes into it.

EV, CSU, and SDCE all make the good hats. I posted a couple pages back with a link.

I think the SDCE hat is going to be the lowest of all the options (and it includes an integrated surge valve mount to simplify things)-- but it wouldn't hurt to call and get measurements for all of them.

Even if you have to leave the hood off for dyno testing at least you can rule out the hat as a problem... or if you're really lucky it will fix the problem.

If I hadn't sold my SDCE-modded hat last year I'd let you borrow it for testing. Worked great on my car at 15 psi.

[67SuperSnake]

Even if you have to leave the hood off for dyno testing at least you can rule out the hat as a problem...

+1 Rule out the hat.

Carbs do work. EFI is hard to tune, also. Find a guy in your area that tune a lot of EFI if you are going to change to EFI. Packaged/pre tuned EFI are not good in all situations.

[TravisB]

the carb is not the issue....

I would look at the hat and the cam before changing anything else.

[mazspeed]

the carb is not the issue....

I would look at the hat and the cam before changing anything else.

The cam is not the issue either, the hat and intake temp is very high. Too high.

[67SuperSnake]

The cam is not the issue either, the hat and intake temp is very high. Too high.

I think you are on the right track. Intake heat is a HP killer. Get fresh outside air if you can and cut down any air restriction.


I was able to put 12" x 8" round air filter under the fender, and splash shielded it from the wheel.

[mazspeed]

I think you are on the right track. Intake heat is a HP killer. Get fresh outside air if you can and cut down any air restriction.


I was able to put 12" x 8" round air filter under the fender, and splash shielded it from the wheel.
Yeah we are working on looking at air to water intercoolers. New hat is being bought next week.

[mazspeed]

Ok, the car is home for the weekend so I can drive it around. I have a question for the guys here. What is the best air to water intercooler out there? I don't have the real estate for a full air to air. What do you guys think?

[Blown353]

Ok, the car is home for the weekend so I can drive it around. I have a question for the guys here. What is the best air to water intercooler out there? I don't have the real estate for a full air to air. What do you guys think?

I've had Turbonetics make me a couple of them for other cars I've worked on and was very happy with them. They use Spearco cores. Turnaround time was pretty good too, typically less than 3 weeks. CAR could also order up just a core and build their own tanks if you wanted to go that route.

In one of the installs I used a pump and heat exchanger off a Ford Lightning and rigged up my own water tank. The price was right for the pump and heat exchanger and I know they work. The car was making about 700hp and I'm fairly certain under sustained abuse (i.e. 20 minute track session) that the setup would heatsoak and could benefit from a larger heat exchanger, but because the owner typically cruises it and only gives it a quick blast occasionally the stock Lightning heat exchanger was more than adequate.

An air/water setup can and will work well, especially for drag use. Putting icewater in the tank really wakes things up. :thumbsup:

Still, if you can fit a properly sized air/air unit in I prefer that for simplicity's sake, but I understand the packaging difficulties around your RS headlight setup. I also recommending going with water injection even with the intercooler. Depending on how aggressive you want to tune it the water injection will either give you a larger safety margin or it will let you run more timing and make more power... depends on how far you want to push things.

[mazspeed]

I've had Turbonetics make me a couple of them for other cars I've worked on and was very happy with them. They use Spearco cores. Turnaround time was pretty good too, typically less than 3 weeks. CAR could also order up just a core and build their own tanks if you wanted to go that route.

In one of the installs I used a pump and heat exchanger off a Ford Lightning and rigged up my own water tank. The price was right for the pump and heat exchanger and I know they work. The car was making about 700hp and I'm fairly certain under sustained abuse (i.e. 20 minute track session) that the setup would heatsoak and could benefit from a larger heat exchanger, but because the owner typically cruises it and only gives it a quick blast occasionally the stock Lightning heat exchanger was more than adequate.

An air/water setup can and will work well, especially for drag use. Putting icewater in the tank really wakes things up. :thumbsup:

Still, if you can fit a properly sized air/air unit in I prefer that for simplicity's sake, but I understand the packaging difficulties around your RS headlight setup. I also recommending going with water injection even with the intercooler. Depending on how aggressive you want to tune it the water injection will either give you a larger safety margin or it will let you run more timing and make more power... depends on how far you want to push things.

It sounds like you're more in favor of a put together setup instead of a vortech or an aftermarket type of deal? I was thinking of a more aggressive water cooler then what comes with the air to water packages, and then adding watter wetter type of thing.

[Blown353]

It sounds like you're more in favor of a put together setup instead of a vortech or an aftermarket type of deal? I was thinking of a more aggressive water cooler then what comes with the air to water packages, and then adding watter wetter type of thing.

I've never messed with any of the Vortech air/water aftercoolers so I can't give any recommendation on them.

I'm in favor of buying a Spearco or equivalent core sized for your application and then build the end tanks to best fit your space requirements. Turbonetics has a bunch of off-the-shelf cast end tanks that you can pick and choose from, you might be able to make one work. Make foam-core or similar mockups of the intercooler and fit them in the car before buying to make sure it and the tubing will work.

Turbonetics and other guys do sell air/water kits complete with heat exchanger and pump.

You might get lucky and find an off-the-shelf piece that will work and if you do by all means buy it as it will probably be the cheapest option compared to buying just a core and then having custom end-tanks made.

Water Wetter or any other kind of surfectant isn't a bad idea. You still need an corrosion inhibitor of some sort in the air/water system to prevent corrosion, electrolysis, & sludge buildup just like your radiator and engine cooling system. All OEM air/water setups I have seen use a pressurized reservoir similar to a late model detached coolant reservoir, however they usually use a somewhat low pressure cap on the order of 5-7 psi or so. If you have the space by all means buy an OEM reservoir, all the work is done for you and all you need to do is mount it. Ford Lightnings & Cobras are good sources for reservoirs, pumps, and heat exchangers, as are some of the supercharged C-class Mercedes (but prepare to pay the Benz tax.) There are even some trick aftermarket all-aluminum replacement heat exchangers for the Lightnings and Cobras.

I know the Lightning heat exchangers are about 10" x 26" or so-- they're pretty wide. I don't know if you'd be able to squeeze that around your RS headlamps. It might fit below the headlamp doors though.

have a look here... they're not small by any means.

http://www.seanhylandmotorsport.com/online/product_info.php?cPath=61&products_id=374

[R67Chevelle]

any update on the situation on the engine yet??? Hope things are going better for you...

Blessings,

[mazspeed]

any update on the situation on the engine yet??? Hope things are going better for you...

Blessings,

Hey thanks. Well we are going to have to have a custom made intercooler made for the setup. It's a water to air cooler, but we are trying to get a lot of size in it. The hat came yesterday and the car went back today so they will put it on next week. Also having a problem with the braking system. The hydroboost works, but when the car is going slow, and to a stop, the car slows down by itself. Kevin pulled the mater off and found that the master's shaft was too long for the unit and cannot be machined down as it's part of the unit, so I have to either ditch the hydroboost or get another master to work with it. I'm thinking about ditching the hydroboost as it's just a problematic POS. Also I may have to order new wheels as the boyds came bent from the factory. The rears are not round and not true. So far, it is still driving me nuts.

[TravisB]

Hey thanks. Well we are going to have to have a custom made intercooler made for the setup. It's a water to air cooler, but we are trying to get a lot of size in it. The hat came yesterday and the car went back today so they will put it on next week. Also having a problem with the braking system. The hydroboost works, but when the car is going slow, and to a stop, the car slows down by itself. Kevin pulled the mater off and found that the master's shaft was too long for the unit and cannot be machined down as it's part of the unit, so I have to either ditch the hydroboost or get another master to work with it. I'm thinking about ditching the hydroboost as it's just a problematic POS. Also I may have to order new wheels as the boyds came bent from the factory. The rears are not round and not true. So far, it is still driving me nuts.


dont order boyds there quaity control sucks. I have a nice set of 18 and 20 in DP Engineering wheels I need to sell but thats probably bigger than you want

[mazspeed]

dont order boyds there quaity control sucks. I have a nice set of 18 and 20 in DP Engineering wheels I need to sell but thats probably bigger than you want

Hey Travis, I appreciate the offer, but yeah, I'm sticking with the 17-18 combo. It looks best on my car. ;)

[AllSpeedAndy]

Has any body checked to see if you are blowing threw the converter?

I've had several cars in here, that we've put prochargers on and not see any wheel numbers change do to converter slippage or just straight blown threw...

got a good a/f and no more power....i'd look to the drive line before getting to crittical on the motor.

Andy

[Steve1968LS2]

Also I may have to order new wheels as the boyds came bent from the factory. The rears are not round and not true. So far, it is still driving me nuts.

PM me about your wheels...

[mazspeed]

PM me about your wheels

You have a pm.

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Also having a problem with the braking system. The hydroboost works, but when the car is going slow, and to a stop, the car slows down by itself. Kevin pulled the mater off and found that the master's shaft was too long for the unit and cannot be machined down as it's part of the unit, so I have to either ditch the hydroboost or get another master to work with it. I'm thinking about ditching the hydroboost as it's just a problematic POS.

Have Kevin machine a spacer and seal kit for it. IMO sounds like the wrong master.

[mazspeed]

Have Kevin machine a spacer and seal kit for it. IMO sounds like the wrong master.

Hey Vince, would that work? I was told that it might need a drum brake master for the hydroboost?

[Vince@Meanstreets]

Hey Vince, would that work? I was told that it might need a drum brake master for the hydroboost?
Yep, that might be the case then. When you go master shopping you need the piston with the deep hole.

[mazspeed]

Y you need the piston with the deep hole.

One could take this the wrong way. :lol:

[mazspeed]

Yep, that might be the case then. When you go master shopping you need the piston with the deep hole.

Ok, Ill have too see. I hate to lose my master, but id rather lose the hydroboost. Ill run it buy them on Monday though. Thanks :thumbsup:

[ProdigyCustoms]

Now surely this cannot be a shallow hole / deep hole problem (Keep your mind out of the gutter now!). The brakes would not work if that was the case. It is possible but no likely the rod is a tiny bit to long for the hole (watch it now!). This is very easy to verify, when you put the master on, pushing it tight against the booster, if the master springs back at all, the rod is to long or the hole is too shallow (I know, happens to us all the time!). The quick test / fix is to put a couple washers between the master and booster to shim the master away a bit to see if this stops the problem. I doubt very seriously this is going to be the problem though as those guys surely know all this.

Another thing to check though that if could be is to make sure that at the retun line TEE for the hydrobbost / Power Steering, that the brake return side of the TEE is on the straight through side of that TEE. If the brake side is not on the straight side of the TEE, this could prevent the booster from returning fluid fast enough, and making the brakes feel a bit hung (Here we go again).

[Ummgawa]

Now surely this cannot be a shallow hole / deep hole problem (Keep your mind out of the gutter now!). The brakes would not work if that was the case. It is possible but no likely the rod is a tiny bit to long for the hole (watch it now!). This is very easy to verify, when you put the master on, pushing it tight against the booster, if the master springs back at all, the rod is to long or the hole is too shallow (I know, happens to us all the time!). The quick test / fix is to put a couple washers between the master and booster to shim the master away a bit to see if this stops the problem. I doubt very seriously this is going to be the problem though as those guys surely know all this.

Another thing to check though that if could be is to make sure that at the retun line TEE for the hydrobbost / Power Steering, that the brake return side of the TEE is on the straight through side of that TEE. If the brake side is not on the straight side of the TEE, this could prevent the booster from returning fluid fast enough, and making the brakes fell a bit hung (Here we go again) a bit.

I am tempted, but I will just leave this one completely alone....:yes:

[Bowtieracing]

dont order boyds there quaity control sucks. I have a nice set of 18 and 20 in DP Engineering wheels I need to sell but thats probably bigger than you want

Stay away from budniks as well-actually forget all "billet" wheels and go for a real racing quality wheels.

[tyoneal]

Mazspeed:

I'm sorry you have to be the one this headache happens to, but Hang in there I know this is very frustrating, but remember all this is based on the physics of nature. There is a "Bug" in your system temporarily that is obstructing the performance of your car. It will be found and hopefully you will still have a huge grin on your face when things get sorted out.

FWIW: You are helping a lot of people who are reading this thread. You have brought up several big issues that people can learn from not including the obvious SuperCharger bug.

First, High performance engines require special and very accurate tuning. For those who haven't been exposed to this first hand and are expecting an easy time at this, your situation is a prime case and point to the reality of sorting out a "HotRod".

Second, and probably more important, anyone reading this thread should be very impressed with the level of support, encouragement and dedication the members have for each other with their assistance offers. I wish I could help you in the same manner as the people who have chimed in before me, even though I can't, I am very glad to point out how impressive it is to see the true help pour in.

Finally, the subject of sub-quality wheels has been brought up and real, "words of wisdom", have been spoken openly about them. It is difficult sometime for the brutal truth about different products to be made publicly. In many cases the money laid out for these is substantial for most people, and it is something that most people don't want to, or cannot afford to do twice.

As an observer, this is really one of the better threads I have read in a while, and it speaks well of the people on this site.

I'm sure you will have an extremely, "Kick Ass", Ride when you finished. All this being said, Take Care and Good Luck.:thumbsup:

Best Regards,

Ty O'Neal

[mazspeed]

Mazspeed:

I'm sorry you have to be the one this headache happens to, but Hang in there I know this is very frustrating, but remember all this is based on the physics of nature. There is a "Bug" in your system temporarily that is obstructing the performance of your car. It will be found and hopefully you will still have a huge grin on your face when things get sorted out.

FWIW: You are helping a lot of people who are reading this thread. You have brought up several big issues that people can learn from not including the obvious SuperCharger bug.

First, High performance engines require special and very accurate tuning. For those who haven't been exposed to this first hand and are expecting an easy time at this, your situation is a prime case and point to the reality of sorting out a "HotRod".

Second, and probably more important, anyone reading this thread should be very impressed with the level of support, encouragement and dedication the members have for each other with their assistance offers. I wish I could help you in the same manner as the people who have chimed in before me, even though I can't, I am very glad to point out how impressive it is to see the true help pour in.

Finally, the subject of sub-quality wheels has been brought up and real, "words of wisdom", have been spoken openly about them. It is difficult sometime for the brutal truth about different products to be made publicly. In many cases the money laid out for these is substantial for most people, and it is something that most people don't want to, or cannot afford to do twice.

As an observer, this is really one of the better threads I have read in a while, and it speaks well of the people on this site.

I'm sure you will have an extremely, "Kick Ass", Ride when you finished. All this being said, Take Care and Good Luck.:thumbsup:

Best Regards,

Ty O'Neal


Hey Ty, thanks for the kind words. Yes I have received a good education on this thread alone, plus with all the IM messages and phone calls from guys on this site. I should thank Scott for that, as he has put together one hell of a group of people, and the help I have received, and continue to receive will not go without mention. Yeah the wheels are a sore spot as Boyd/American Racing wheels will not do anything for me once the wheels are mounted. They were rather rude about it as well. Anyways this thread has been great for the fact that I'm getting lots of feedback and help and encouragement to keep the car once it's done, don't know about that yet, but I have to at least try and finish it. :thumbsup:

[rich-allen]

I think these shops that get TV shows lose their customer support base in a short amount of time.
Imagine the kind of non stop telephone calls when you have a show like Boyd did. People from around the world trying to get prices and order one off wheels and cars. It must be through the roof.
Shortly thereafter your income is up 1000% and the lawyers get involved, suddenly 95% of your machine work is coming from the far east.

I figure once a shop gets a TV show their yesterday's news anyway.
That's what I love about lateral-g.net, always cutting edge stuff happening here.



Rich

[Flash68]

Hang in there, Mike. You will not regret it in the end, and you have come so far.

:thumbsup:

[mazspeed]

Hang in there, Mike. You will not regret it in the end, and you have come so far.

:thumbsup:

I appreciate that. Hey, are you the one who bought Don's motor?

[Flash68]

I appreciate that. Hey, are you the one who bought Don's motor?

Yep, that is me. I'm Dave.

The mini-tubbing and body/paint is being done now and should be ready for motor install in about a month. I am hoping to have it ready to go by October.

You really do have a sweet ride - would hate to see you sell it. But you are damn close....

I am glad to know Jody built and tuned the motor I have. He really knows what he is doing around here!

Hope to see your car again soon and running well! :)

[mazspeed]

Yep, that is me. I'm Dave.

The mini-tubbing and body/paint is being done now and should be ready for motor install in about a month. I am hoping to have it ready to go by October.

You really do have a sweet ride - would hate to see you sell it. But you are damn close....

I am glad to know Jody built and tuned the motor I have. He really knows what he is doing around here!

Hope to see your car again soon and running well! :)

I almost bought that motor and supercharger combo. Jody is simply the best IMHO. Super guy. I can't wait to see your car running as well. :thumbsup:

[Steve Chryssos]

....FWIW: You are helping a lot of people who are reading this thread. You have brought up several big issues that people can learn from not including the obvious SuperCharger bug.......For those who haven't been exposed to this first hand and are expecting an easy time at this, your situation is a prime case and point to the reality of sorting out a "HotRod"....

Truer words have never been spoken...uhh, typed.

[Flash68]

I almost bought that motor and supercharger combo. Jody is simply the best IMHO. Super guy. I can't wait to see your car running as well. :thumbsup:

Thanks! Yeah it was quite a good deal for everything I got. And I felt a lot better already having spent enough time on this forum and pro-touring to know about Jody and his credentials.

I am sure I will be hitting up Jody for some advice at some point to help get it tuned perfectly and running, but I know it's already got a good base tune in the FAST system he programmed.

Thinking a couple more months, which probably means 4-6 more months! LOL

[mazspeed]

Thinking a couple more months, which probably means 4-6 more months! LOL
Tell me about it. heh