G-Machine question.....

[bringemout]

It's seems like most pro touring, and G-machine rides have a manual tranny. Is it like a "requirement" to have a manual. Or has anyone seen a nice machine with like an auto 4 speed??

[XcYZ]

Are manuals required - absolutely not! :thumbsup: Jody is building a Twin Turbo 69 Camaro with a 4L80E and he's going to use a Shrifter paddle shifter setup.

Check out the website for the Shrifter here: TwistMachine.com (www.twistmachine.com)

[bringemout]

that's pretty tight there. different too. I was looking at like a hurst or B&m ratchet shifter. That's probably more for drag racing though huh??

[Musclerodz]

PADDLE SHIFTER!!!!!! The next best thing to manual. That is until I get to try one myself.

Mike

[4mm]

4L80E+Paddle Shifter > any manual trans? I think so...

[gchandler]

I have autos in both of my cars, but after the first time that you get stuck in cross town traffic on the 10 freeway and it take 2 and a half hours to drive 15 miles, you to will want an auto trans.

But if I live without traffic I would love one.

[MaxHarvard]

I have a TH350 in mine. Mainly because i'm broke! :D

[almcbri]

I am running a TH400 w/ a 5.7L 350 Fuel injected SB, pretty mild

[bringemout]

ok cool, I have a BOP th400 for my lemans, I was just gonna throw a shift kit in, ratchet shift, and see how that treats me. Oh yeah, another question, what's a reasonable gear for the street and occasional red light to red light sprint. Heard 3.55's were a solid tradeoff..........

[Steve1968LS2]

4L80E+Paddle Shifter > any manual trans? I think so...

6L80 + paddle shifter > *

:)

[Steve Chryssos]

I think that with respect to well rounded cars like ours, manual transmissions will always be more popular. Indeed Porsche sell three manual equipped cars for every Tiptronic that goes out the door--and that includes all of their tiptronic-only SUV's.
I think a better question with respect to the pro-touring formula would be:

How valuable is overdrive for a pro-touring car?

Whereas overdrive (either manual or auto) allows for transmission gear ratios that are far more appropriate for a well rounded car. Overdrive allows for a steeper 1st gear and better 2-3 gear ratios. Which combined with a middle of the road final gear ratio (3.50:1), works best with our relatively short rear tire diameters for excellent straight line acceleration. On the other end of the equation, an overdriven high gear provides better fuel economy and higher top speed. Performance nirvana.

I always found my TH350 / 3.90 / 275/40ZR17 combination to be somewhat dissappointing. In fact, I'm bummed that PHR selected a TH350 for G/28. I understand that cost is an issue, but a built 200-4R or bone stock junkyard 4L80E would have better fit the performance goals without breaking the bank. We can argue price all day long, but balance price with performace goals and I know I'm right. (I didn't get very far arguing the point with Johnny, though)

So Bringemout
If a TH400 is in your future, I recommend backing it up with a Ford 9" so that you can try different final drive ratios until you're happy. When in doubt, a 3.42 or even 3.31 will maximize all around performance at the expense of E.T.
Even then, when the road gets curvy, or if you find some room for high speed testing, ;) you may find that the 3 speed trans is holding you back.

[bringemout]

Roger that Streetfytr, thanks for the input. I appreciate it. As far as the gears, I was wondering about a good gear for the rear end, 3.55? 4.10? ya know??

[Steve Chryssos]

For a TH400? For best all around performance, I would go the other way because top speed and highway cruising are bigger priorities
With a 4L80 the choices are wide open

Here: Mess around with a gear/mph calculator.
http://www.f-body.org/gears/

And Gear Ratios can be found here
http://www.tciauto.com/tech_info/gear_ratios.htm

[Steve1968LS2]

4L80E+Paddle Shifter > any manual trans? I think so...

actually.. soon it will be

6L80+paddle shifter > 4L80e+paddle shifter > *

:)

A manual is NOT required.. although my current ride will have one just to be different from my last car..

[T Bell]

I just read that 6L80 article in Hot Rod. Sixth gear is .67. Isn't that the same as the 4L80 or close to it? I guess what would be the benefits besides being able to handle more torque and having 5-6 chirps in the back?

[protour]

actually.. soon it will be

6L80+paddle shifter > 4L80e+paddle shifter > *

:)

A manual is NOT required.. although my current ride will have one just to be different from my last car..

I'm still stuck on liking less gears... I HATE hearing my engine/tranny having to struggle through 6 gears in every day traffic. My car has enough jam to just pull in the gear its in, or one kick down. Not to mention having to row through 6 gears(in a manual) vs 4/5

4l80>6l80 for me.

-Matt

[TravisB]

For a TH400? For best all around performance, I would go the other way because top speed and highway cruising are bigger priorities
With a 4L80 the choices are wide open

Here: Mess around with a gear/mph calculator.
http://www.f-body.org/gears/

And Gear Ratios can be found here
http://www.tciauto.com/tech_info/gear_ratios.htm


Steve C will your paddle shifter work with the new 6L80E????? I am assuming it will....but just asking!

Steve R when will this trans be released? have you heard

[61Bubbletop]

You will be waiting a long time to see a 6L80 in the aftermarket....Clutch to Clutch trans vs. a Step Gear 4L80E.....

[Steve Chryssos]

My paddle shifter is essentially just an electric actuator. So the answer should be yes. A better question is: What will it take to adapt the 6L80E's sophisticated electronics to a hot rod. According to my source, that adaptation will be a long time coming. If possible, it may require scrapping the OE computer which would be a shame.

As for the 6L80E having too many gears, I don't think that's how it works. At any given time, these modern 6, or 7 speeds can be looked at as multiple four speeds in one. The computer decides which of the 6 or 7 available gears are appropriate and omits the rest. They just have a more diverse menu of ratios to choose from--kinda like a chinese menu. You wouldn't dare order one of every item offered by China Delight, but somehow, any dish is available when you ask for it.
With the Mercedes 7G 7 speed transmission, the computer might launch in second or downshift from 5th to 3rd without passing thru 4th.
So from point A to point B, that 7 speed might only use four gears-maybe not. Which four is up to the computer. When sequential gear changes fo occur, the close ratios allow for very smooth shifts.

[race-rodz]

keep in mind...most poncho motors are "grunt" motors, they tend to like a lil less gear. again it really depends on your driving habbits.... but i would say 3:30-3:50 with non-overdrive trans.

[el-camino]

i hate manual tranny´s
i fire up my Camino faster with the TCI than others with manual.
all our cars have automatic transmission, also the old BMW from 1984 ;)

[steemin]

I think that the Shrifter is a great option..
But for me a BIG part of the experience is rowing thru the gears.
There is a certain level of satisfaction in a perfecly executed shift.
(I know in many cases autos are faster. I don't care)
Scott

[HotRodV6]

Dam, looks like another toy my truck needs to have in it.

I guess this will hel me mak up my mind which trans to run.

[Dezduster]

WOW no one mentioned the the extra 20 to 40 hp it takes to run the auto trans. I changed from auto to TKO 5sp and the car just feels light and happy OH thats me . Any ways Heat is also aconcern with autos. But they are luxurious.

[ilovefirstgens]

I think that the Shrifter is a great option..
But for me a BIG part of the experience is rowing thru the gears.
There is a certain level of satisfaction in a perfecly executed shift.
(I know in many cases autos are faster. I don't care)
Scott
I couldnt agree more, my car had th350 and its just boring!

And for the arguement that autos are faster, then why dosent everyone put in stability control and abs that makes the car faster, but in normal conditions if you are a good enough driver (be it very very good driver) you can accomplish virtually the same performance. Most of the fun for me in having a fast car is being able to drive it, something like trying to tame a wild animal. The less imput i have in driving the car the less fun!

[Steve Chryssos]

Remember the endgame boys and girls. Way beyond that "perfect shift" is hitting that braking zone and apex perfectly or getting from point A to point B in short order--in other words: Total Car Control. The gear change is just one facet of complete driving pleasure and accomplishment.

If jerking a rod back and forth is the only reason for getting your rocks off, try Playboy. But if maximum car control is your goal, I suggest that--for one minute--you envision yourself making a gear change in the shortest possible time without ever taking your hands off the wheel--10 and 2 baby! You change gears without barely lifting a finger. It is a very different experience. The gear changing process becomes something that you get out of the way--as though you shifted with your brain. There is no more quest for the perfect shift because THEY'RE ALL PERFECT! You, instead devote 100% of your concentration to forward progress of the vehicle: Throttle, brake, steering.

Just picture it: Revs up, palms sweaty, hands at 10 and 2, steering wheel rotating as needed, and one finger reaching back and clicking off a gear change.

[JamesJ]

Remember the endgame boys and girls. Way beyond that "perfect shift" is hitting that braking zone and apex perfectly or getting from point A to point B in short order--in other words: Total Car Control. The gear change is just one facet of complete driving pleasure and accomplishment.

If jerking a rod back and forth is the only reason for getting your rocks off, try Playboy. But if maximum car control is your goal, I suggest that--for one minute--you envision yourself making a gear change in the shortest possible time without ever taking your hands off the wheel--10 and 2 baby! You change gears without barely lifting a finger. It is a very different experience. The gear changing process becomes something that you get out of the way--as though you shifted with your brain. There is no more quest for the perfect shift because THEY'RE ALL PERFECT! You, instead devote 100% of your concentration to forward progress of the vehicle: Throttle, brake, steering.

Just picture it: Revs up, palms sweaty, hands at 10 and 2, steering wheel rotating as needed, and one finger reaching back and clicking off a gear change.

I could not agree with you more... But until the quickness of the gear changes can be controlled, and TQ converter slip can be controlled I will just stick with my stick.

[Steve Chryssos]

I could not agree with you more... But until the quickness of the gear changes can be controlled, and TQ converter slip can be controlled I will just stick with my stick.

Both of those parameters can be controlled through all of the available software programs. Ironically, the first instinct is to set all shift times to the absolute minimum and engage lock-up as soon as possible. After use, it becomes obvious that more "slip" is desirable under most circumstances other than WOT.

[sinned]

Steve, impossible to heel/toe an automatic and no amount of software can program the transmission to match RPM's on the downshift while still providing 100% engine braking.

[Steve Chryssos]

Correct. A different driving style is required. Downshifting in turns is done solely to select the proper gear for corner exit--not for engine braking. So you get your braking done to establish entry speed, downshift to select proper exit gear (i.e. 2nd gear), hit the apex, and when you get back in the throttle, you know for sure that the trans is on 2nd gear whereas in auto mode, the computer doesn't know if you are exiting a corner or slowing for a stopped schoolbus. In auto mode, the computer might choose the wrong gear or lag before finding 2nd gear.

Engine braking is there if you want it, but I don't use it. I've learned to rely soley on the vehicle's brakes. The computer in my DSG paddle shifted Audi A3 (a dual clutch manual) does match revs--perfectly, every time. Effective rev-matched heel and toe downshifting is one of those things that everyone brags about, but very few people have mastered. And it's not just skill, proper pedal placement is a big issue.

[sinned]

Incorrect, downshifting at the proper time is done to have the proper gear selected for corner exit AND allow deeper braking through use of proper engine braking use and thus allowing much shorter braking distances.

The Audi is an unfair comparison, how many guys really have tried to transplant a clutchless manual into their “G” machine?

[race-rodz]

i agree with both arguments, the lack of being able to control clutch "slip" for engine braking and acceleration during corner entry/exit is the big drawback to the auto, but by changing the driving style to rely more on the brakes, and clicking down a gear for the exit....... i think a more consitant lap time can be achieved. by "learning" to drive the auto in max effort conditions, i feel that there is less chance for the variables that hurt the lap times, ie... missed shifts, over engine braking(compression scratches), and whatever else that may come up that makes you change your focus to it... rather than dealing with the "line" in an effort to throw down the best lap you can.

now obviously there is still room for driver error with the shirfter, like double clicking a down shift..... but, overall, consitancy with the manu-matic trans should be vastly improved over traditional heel/toe gear rowing.

every other "spirited driving" vehicle i own has a manual trans, im a die hard "row your own" kinda guy, BUT, my all out g-machine shop truck will be getting a paddle shifted 4L80E, because i want to try something new, which in theroy SHOULD be better overall. now obviously im not affraid to piss off anybody or hurt their feelings, and if i dont like it, or dont like something about it, i will be the first to give an honest opinion of it...good or bad.

obviously this argument can go on and on and on..... im just throwing in my $.02 on the deal.

btw... i will let dennis try it out.... as long as he promises to keep it outa the dirt :lol:

[sinned]

btw... i will let dennis try it out.... as long as he promises to keep it outa the dirt :lol:
Sure, I'll take it out for you :unibrow:

[Steve Chryssos]

Incorrect, downshifting at the proper time is done to have the proper gear selected for corner exit AND allow deeper braking through use of proper engine braking use and thus allowing much shorter braking distances.
The Audi is an unfair comparison, how many guys really have tried to transplant a clutchless manual into their “G” machine?

Dennis,
Please re-read my post. Note that it has not been edited in any way. I am AGREEING with you. At no point do I state that engine braking is un-important. I am stating that the limitations of available aftermarket manumatic systems are such that engine braking--with a manumatic--is not reasonable such that the gear change with a manumatic is only used to select exit gear
I'm fully aware that engine braking is useful as a means of helping the car to decelerate to entry speed without upsetting the chassis (excessive nose dive under braking).
On a regular basis, I explain to people (or disclose if you wish) that manumatic control is merely better than traditional automatic function in that it guarantees that the selected gear is available as soon as you get back in the throttle. And that's all that my post states.
Believe me, I welcome this discussion because it takes the matter beyond the typical snappy comeback of "I like banging gears".

[Steve Chryssos]

now obviously there is still room for driver error with the shirfter, like double clicking a down shift..... but, overall, consitancy with the manu-matic trans should be vastly improved over traditional heel/toe gear rowing.
Race,
Depending on which computer you use and/or which mode you select, there are safety measures built in to prevent double downshifts based on user defined mph limits.


now obviously im not affraid to piss off anybody or hurt their feelings, and if i dont like it, or dont like something about it, i will be the first to give an honest opinion of it...good or bad.

I make sure that every customer is fully aware of what the system can and cannot do before accepting any money. To date, no one has been disappointed. If you accept it for what it is:
1) Better than any non-electronic automatic in every respect except price.
2) Better than a manual in some respects (i.e. traffic, consistency, etc.)
Then you too will come away satisfied.

[sinned]

I was referring to this Steve-o...

Downshifting in turns is done solely to select the proper gear for corner exit--not for engine braking

I may have read too much into though.

[Steve Chryssos]

I'll try again:

With currently availabe aftermarket manumatic systems, downshifting in turns is done solely to select the proper gear for corner exit--not for engine braking.

[Steve Chryssos]

......and no amount of software can program the transmission to match RPM's on the downshift while still providing 100% engine braking.

And the "Audi DSG" content was introduced solely to clarify that there are in fact some great software programs that match revs and provide engine braking. More accurately: Mechatronic solutions exist that perfectly match revs with each and every downshift. So I just wanted to clarify that your statement "...no amount of software..." is technically wrong.

But "big picture", you are right. It will be a long time, before a true mechatronic manual solution can be marketed to hot rodders. Hot rodding is about diversity. So producing a system that can be adapted to a wide range of applications is near impossible. There are countless hardware AND software issues--mostly software. The right calibration for one application is near useless for another. If it happens, it will cost at least five figures.
We're working with a fella who is installing a Shrifter™ on a Pingel equipped Hayabusa sandrail. 900 lbs, 300HP and the motorcycle sequential transmission. Our disclaimers didn't bother him one bit. We'll see what happens.

[sinned]

Allow me to clarify: and no amount of software can program the automatic transmission (vs. a clutchless manual with electronic modules to control shift points) to match RPM's on the downshift while still providing 100% engine braking


:thumbsup:

[Steve Chryssos]

Look! We made the exact same clarification.