Aluminum body panels for 69 Camaro

[XcYZ]

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/al/aa%20041.jpg

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/al/aa%20042.jpg

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/al/aa%20043.jpg

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/al/aa%20044.jpg

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/al/aa%20045.jpg

[XcYZ]

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/al/aa%20046.jpg

http://www.lateral-g.net/temp/al/aa%20047.jpg

[Fluid Power]

My wallet trembles at the cost of those babies...

Darren

[clill]

I think they are hoping to sell all the pieces for less than 4K including trunk lid and front and rear bumpers. Stuff looked nice. Top of the fenders was wavy but Rick said they were straight but everyone at the shows keeps tapping on them. Supposed to take 200 lbs off the car.

[syborg tt]

You Camaro Guy's have all the fun.

[Mick Mc]

Rerminds me of the AC Corbra days, very cool, light weight, but don't touch it. Very sensitive to touch, leaning, pressing, fender covers, any thing you might do to work on a car...
But very cool. Camaro guys get all the cool parts.

Mick

[Steve1968LS2]

Rerminds me of the AC Corbra days, very cool, light weight, but don't touch it. Very sensitive to touch, leaning, pressing, fender covers, any thing you might do to work on a car...
But very cool. Camaro guys get all the cool parts.

Mick

This would be my concern. If they dent up from people tapping on them then how will the hold up in the real world?

If you had them you would have to not tell anyone or they would want to tap on them. Then someone would lean against a fender and "oops".

Other than that those panels are VERY cool.

[BRIAN]

I assume they are stamped as there are no wheel or work marks on them. Inner frame aluminum also? I would think you would have to run cage with forward struts to take stress off fenders??

Nice pieces! Not bad price considering what you are getting. How was fit panel to panel? Edges?

[Fluid Power]

I think they are hoping to sell all the pieces for less than 4K including trunk lid and front and rear bumpers. Stuff looked nice. Top of the fenders was wavy but Rick said they were straight but everyone at the shows keeps tapping on them. Supposed to take 200 lbs off the car.


Cheaper than NOS stuff, if you can find it....

Darren

[toddy]

Anyone do doors? would love a pair of Ali doors.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Gentleman, I have had the "honor" (clears throat) of restoring 2 factory lightweight Z11 1963 Impalas in my day with aluminum fenders. And of coarse the fenders were banged up and had to be bondo repaired to make them nice and straight. Filler jumps off aluminum just looking at it with a mean glance. We shipped both cars to Barrett Jackson and by the time they got there the fenders were cracked on both cars. I would not want aluminum p[anels on any car that needed to look straight and be driven. And as Steve brought up, who would want something so sensitive, when we all build our cars to beat the crap out of them. Now, Carbon fiber? We talking about loosing weight and getting at least as strong.

[awr68]

Thanks for calling me (us) gentleman!! ;)

I have to agree for a track only car they might be cool...but for the street it would be a nightmare....thanks for giving your direct experiance!!

So did you have to fix the cars after the auction?

[Ummgawa]

Calling us gentlemen is like calling Jesse Jackson "Reverend".


I question who you are hanging out with.:D

[Clockwork]

Seen these this weekend in Carlisle thanks to Charley pointing them out to me. Loved finally seeing the Witch in person as well! I agree though, these pieces would not be the best for street cars.

[Musclerodz]

I am with Frank. I would rather see Carbon Fiber for weight saving and rigidity. I have dealt with aluminum panels on vintage aircraft for 20+ years and I always cringed everytime we took one to the show and prayed some kid didn't use a wheel pant as a step. I don't know I would use them on a racecar either knowing the abuse they take.

Mike

[comp-spec]

I check these out pretty good and are like most aftermarket panels.There's rough corner stamps and lines so some filler would need to be used. As Frank said if you have worked with aluminum panels you know its not the same as metal panels

[ProdigyCustoms]

I guess you missed the part where Rick said people had been taping the fenders and that is why they were wavy?

"Top of the fenders was wavy but Rick said they were straight but everyone at the shows keeps tapping on them"


The problem with repairing the aluminum is in the flex. There really is not a great filler that has enough give to handle the flex of aluminum.

Anthony. Yes I fixed the F..kin fenders, of each car, MANY times! The last trip we figured out if we tied the car to the suspension, instead of to the frame, it relieved at least the stress long enugh to get them delivered to the new owners.

We gave one away in a raffle, I never heard if it arrived OK, I doubt that guy was lookig a gift horse in the mouth. It's not everyday you win a $200K car for a $50 ticket.

[TravisB]

I don't get the big problem with fixing, repairing or painting aluminum body panels? I believe that they make body filler and other products that are designed to adhere to aluminum . More and more newer high end cars are being built with aluminum body panels, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, even some of GM's cars are now using aluminum body panels. I don't think car manufactures would be using aluminum body panels if they where flimsy, dented easily and weren't repairable. Are these 69 Camaro body panels made of a thinner gauge of aluminum then what new cars are being made of ? Do you guy's think you should be comparing 35 or 40 year flimsy acid dipped body panels to these? Do those new panel look flimsy? I'd like to know a little more about them. All aluminum nose sounds pretty cool though.

Jay


most collision shops wont repair alum. panel's on the newer cars anything more than about a fist sized dent gets a new panel. As frank said filler does not like aluminum.

[comp-spec]

I've repaired alot of aluminum panels of diff cars Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, GM and others and yes you can fix them but it dosn't last like it does on metal.

[clill]

I like them. What I saw was a guy knocking on it like he was knocking on a door. Even if the fenders and hood scare you the bumpers, lower valance and maybe trunk lid would save a bunch of weight. I had a flier on the stuff but can't find it.

[comp-spec]

Im not saying there junk. I like the idea alot.All I was saying- From what I seen they will need a little work before paint.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I think they are cool is the right situation. But what I see is them being used in hard core cars that first need to look really good which will require work even with NOS panels> Cars that are driven hard, and wrenched on a lot, all of which can lead to headaches with soft panels.

James, I have a friend with a NSX he needs to fix the fender. I could probably save my guy some serious money if he can repair instead of replace since the Acura dealer told him absolutly not. I had a nightmare with my aluminum repairs, although i will admit it was 15 years ago.

Can you share the precautions,steps and materials you use.

[comp-spec]

(Can you share the precautions,steps and materials you use)
I would also like to know If you don't mind
Thanks

[kennyd]

i wish we would have seen these before we bought NOS for the one we are working on .

[kennyd]

most collision shops wont repair alum. panel's on the newer cars anything more than about a fist sized dent gets a new panel. As frank said filler does not like aluminum.


it's not the body shop , its the cheap ass insurance adjuster that dont want to add extra time for the repair .

[LateNight72]

My point was, new cars are made of aluminum and don't dent by "taping on them" and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these brand new panels with no "fist" size dents to be repaired? There are plenty of auto body shops out there repairing aluminum body damage, mine being one of them. I can't image having to tell one of my customers that I couldn't fix the small dent in there rear quarter panel and that I'd have cut it off and replace it because it's aluminum . There are special precautions,steps and materials in repairing aluminum and if you don't follow them or use them, you will probably have a repair that won't last.

I'd like to know what series and gauge aluminum there made of? The wrong series or gauge maybe the reason for them denting so easily. Dose anyone know what there made of besides just aluminum?

Man you guys make it sound like these things are junk. They can't be all that bad.

Just my take at the subject at hand.

Jay

I agree, my DD had an aluminum hood & trunk lid. Either panel is harder to dent than the steel quarters.



Either way, you could simply lay down an epoxy primer, THEN do your filler work over the epoxy. This would be the optimal way to do it, IMO.

I can see these denting if they are made of 26ga. aluminum. But because they're aluminum, they could easily step-up to 18 or 16ga, and still have them alot lighter then OEM.

-Todd

[68TT396]

I have been wanting these for a very long time. Aluminum body panels when done right will work even better than steel. If this were not so then all our fighter aircraft would be made with steel skins.

Let me start by saying I have 13 years of experience working on US Air Force fighter aircraft in the repair & fabrication area.

Every fighter aircraft skin is made from aluminum, titanium or some form of composite. We make most of the skins from 2024 or 7075 grade aluminum. They are all installed with flush mount removable fasteners or with panel adhesive & flush mount rivets. The exotic materials are typically only used for radar tracking reasons and in high heat areas that would melt aluminum.

For the building of complex shapes like our fenders the material needs to be weldable so the higher strength 2024 & 7075 can not be used. We need to switch to 5052 or 6061 in an un-heat treated condition so they don't crack during forming. After they are formed the product needs to be annealed to remove the stresses put into the panel during forming then it needs to be heat treated.

An after fabrication heat treated 6061-T6 formed panel will be extremely tough to dent but if you do manage to dent it then it is as simple as lightly heating the area with a rosebud torch until the area returns to its as-heat treated shape. As long as the area is not too badly damaged (like a sharp crease) the light heating will bring the panel back into shape.

If these new aluminum fenders were dented from people knocking on the top surface then they were made from un-heat treated material and never annealed and heat treated as they need to be.

Another thing that needs to be done is to increase the panel thickness a little. From the photos it looks pretty close to the same thickness material that the stock steel panels are made from. This just won't work. The material needs to be about 50% thicker than steel to have the same dent resistance after it is heat treated. If it is un-heat treated and the same thickness as the steel counterpart it will dent if somebody even looks at it funny. This is probably what the Cobra's & early 60's light weight cars used, un-heat treated low strength aluminum that formed easily. It would explain why they all dent so easily and couldn't handle people leaning on them. We walk all over our fighter aircraft with no fear of denting the panels.

Aluminum body panels can be made to be very durable and light weight at a fraction of the cost of carbon fiber. They will be more expensive than steel but should not be $4000 for a front clip. I can see a 50% upcharge for the material change and heat treatment so a front clip should be in the $2000 range.

[BThibodeaux]

Or how bout just runnin a big F'in motor that don't know the difference between +-200lbs.?:thumbsup:

[JamesJ]

Or how bout just runnin a big F'in motor that don't know the difference between +-200lbs.?:thumbsup:


yup.... could not have said it better....

[andrewmp6]

I'm with everyone else nice idea but a fender denting from getting knocked on somethings wrong there.I'm cheap ill stick to fiberglass.

[tyoneal]

I have been wanting these for a very long time. Aluminum body panels when done right will work even better than steel. If this were not so then all our fighter aircraft would be made with steel skins.

Let me start by saying I have 13 years of experience working on US Air Force fighter aircraft in the repair & fabrication area.

Every fighter aircraft skin is made from aluminum, titanium or some form of composite. We make most of the skins from 2024 or 7075 grade aluminum. They are all installed with flush mount removable fasteners or with panel adhesive & flush mount rivets. The exotic materials are typically only used for radar tracking reasons and in high heat areas that would melt aluminum.

For the building of complex shapes like our fenders the material needs to be weldable so the higher strength 2024 & 7075 can not be used. We need to switch to 5052 or 6061 in an un-heat treated condition so they don't crack during forming. After they are formed the product needs to be annealed to remove the stresses put into the panel during forming then it needs to be heat treated.

An after fabrication heat treated 6061-T6 formed panel will be extremely tough to dent but if you do manage to dent it then it is as simple as lightly heating the area with a rosebud torch until the area returns to its as-heat treated shape. As long as the area is not too badly damaged (like a sharp crease) the light heating will bring the panel back into shape.

If these new aluminum fenders were dented from people knocking on the top surface then they were made from un-heat treated material and never annealed and heat treated as they need to be.

Another thing that needs to be done is to increase the panel thickness a little. From the photos it looks pretty close to the same thickness material that the stock steel panels are made from. This just won't work. The material needs to be about 50% thicker than steel to have the same dent resistance after it is heat treated. If it is un-heat treated and the same thickness as the steel counterpart it will dent if somebody even looks at it funny. This is probably what the Cobra's & early 60's light weight cars used, un-heat treated low strength aluminum that formed easily. It would explain why they all dent so easily and couldn't handle people leaning on them. We walk all over our fighter aircraft with no fear of denting the panels.

Aluminum body panels can be made to be very durable and light weight at a fraction of the cost of carbon fiber. They will be more expensive than steel but should not be $4000 for a front clip. I can see a 50% upcharge for the material change and heat treatment so a front clip should be in the $2000 range.
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To All:

This Post is Spot on. I worked in the Aerospace Industry a number of Years, and Aluminum Panels when properly Engineered, Formed, and Annealed and or Heat Treated are very stable, light and strong.

The Heat Treating and the annealing is the key to working with Aluminum. Plus Aluminum has a lower melting point making it easier to Anneal, Heat Treat, Acid Dip, Work harden etc.

It's all in the Technique used as to what your out come will be. I built numerous panel for the F-16 (Fort Worth, Texas) And Aluminum also stands up to many types of forming Techniques. You can hammer, draw, stretch draw, hydra-form and Hand work, etc. etc. Aluminum. The Key is getting it soft enough to be worked,(Annealed), then Harden it to make it strong.(Heat Treating) You also need a place to properly quench it.

If you have large panels, many times it is how the panel is engineered as to whether is has the strength necessary for a specific task.

Like anything else, understanding the material, and engineering around the weaknesses that you have to live with, will be your key to success with it.

Aluminum is a really cool metal to work with whether pressing or machining, and it comes in a variety of different types. You can also make tools and Die sets for it out with cast-able epoxy, so having a Foundry, die grinders and the expense and safety issues associated with it are not necessary. A DROP HAMMER die for 125/1000's Aluminum, forming a part with concave, convex and tight radiuses, can be formed off a checked piece in about 10-14 days, and that includes any stepped heat curing of the epoxy.

If you have never seen a Pneumatic Drop Hammer Machine Operate, it is really amazing how tough properly prepared epoxies can be, and they work like a charm with Aluminum, so it allows smaller shops the ability to construct parts that would normally not be able to due to lack of proper equipment. (This is the case in many Prototype Shops Around the Country)

Anyway, long story short Aluminum is a terrific material to construct high performance pieces out of.

Thanks for your patience's during this semi dissertation.

Regards,

Ty

[JamesJ]

I am all for it... Whatever anyone wants to do is cool... Just not for me and what i want...

[preston]

Thanks for the information guys. Is there an explanation of the kind of heat treat we could do at home ? I assume you need a large enough oven. I know true heat treating is a pretty meticulous process.

Also, back to applying epoxy so we can do body filler. There has been some talk about using powder coat as a pre-paint application instead, and I know powder coat would stick to aluminum. Would that be an effective method ie powdercoat the panel, rough it up, and then start on the bodywork ?

ANd for that matter, Powder coating would be a controlled 400 degree bake. Would this add any strength back into the material ?

I have built some big TransAm/DTM wheel flares out of .05 5052 which is probably too thin, but with the flanges and such that were added its reasonably strong. I never annealed it but I did obviously tig weld it along the entire seam. Its not OEM strong and I dont' expect them to be but I would like to think they won't just disintegrate on track at speed !

http://carter-engineering.com/preston/newChassis/DriverFlareConstructionSmall.jpg

[dave96dcm]

There is some really good info in this post, it's cool to see new stuff that is being made. I have a few friends with E46 (2001 - 2006) M3's and they have Aluminum hoods, and they don't have any dents, and I know at least one of them was in a small wreck on the side of the car, and they did not need to replace the hood but the core support is out of wack a little and you need to push pretty hard on his hood to get it to close and there is no dent at all.

[CraigMorrison]

Or how bout just runnin a big F'in motor that don't know the difference between +-200lbs.?:thumbsup:

You'll then need to add a few sacks of concrete mix in the trunk to balance out the car.

[68TT396]

==================================

Aluminum is a really cool metal to work with whether pressing or machining, and it comes in a variety of different types. You can also make tools and Die sets for it out with cast-able epoxy, so having a Foundry, die grinders and the expense and safety issues associated with it are not necessary. A DROP HAMMER die for 125/1000's Aluminum, forming a part with concave, convex and tight radiuses, can be formed off a checked piece in about 10-14 days, and that includes any stepped heat curing of the epoxy.

If you have never seen a Pneumatic Drop Hammer Machine Operate, it is really amazing how tough properly prepared epoxies can be, and they work like a charm with Aluminum, so it allows smaller shops the ability to construct parts that would normally not be able to due to lack of proper equipment. (This is the case in many Prototype Shops Around the Country)

Anyway, long story short Aluminum is a terrific material to construct high performance pieces out of.

Thanks for your patience's during this semi dissertation.

Regards,

Ty

OK, who do we know that can do an epoxy mold drop hammer production run of cowl hoods, trunk lids & cowl panels for us? These would be a great starting point as they will fit all first gen Camaro's. The year specific parts like doors, fenders, header & valance panels and bumpers can come later after the process is ironed out and gets some popularity.

Bumpers and their mount brackets might be an easy first step in doing this for somebody interested even though they are year specific.

On A-body cars this could save a ton of weight putting on aluminum bumpers & mount brackets. They could even be chrome plated to look completely stock.

[tyoneal]

OK, who do we know that can do an epoxy mold drop hammer production run of cowl hoods, trunk lids & cowl panels for us? These would be a great starting point as they will fit all first gen Camaro's. The year specific parts like doors, fenders, header & valance panels and bumpers can come later after the process is ironed out and gets some popularity.

Bumpers and their mount brackets might be an easy first step in doing this for somebody interested even though they are year specific.

On A-body cars this could save a ton of weight putting on aluminum bumpers & mount brackets. They could even be chrome plated to look completely stock.
=======================================

I'll quickly run through some of the steps necessary to make parts off of plastic die sets. It won't be complete, because it is late and I'm tired, but it should be close enough to give you an idea.

First
1) How big is your production run?
2) A complete hood would be pushing the limits of a Hammer forming press because of size, however some of the larger presses might be able to do something that large.
3) The process of making any of these is very methodical, but easy if you don't get in a hurry.
First Get a good part to make your dies from. Take the good part and put a releasing agent on it. Usually paste wax will due

Off the part create:

a) A checking fixture (This fixture will be used as a reference as to the quality of the part being made. With this you will also use a template to scribe your newly formed parts. The scribing will also show where to drill registration holes. (Out side of the actual part surface) These holes will make sure the new part is on the checking fixture in the right place. The checking fixture will have dowels in it where the new piece is to be placed. once everything lines up and is checked for a tight fit, the part is trimmed along the scribed lines and is ready to be used. Sometimes due to material thickness variation or wear on the die set a part will fail when used on the checking fixture. In this case, hand forming (Tweeking) might have to take place to slightly modify part until it conforms acceptably to the checking fixture. Once it passes the trimming can be done.


b) A good reliable source for consistent material ( type, thickness, etc.) will need to be acquired.

c) Access to a the correct presses (many of these can probably be found for a song in the Detroit area (Many of these presses in the automotive or aerospace companies have been around since the 1940's), or any area where metal parts were formed for aircraft (or cars) when they were primarily aluminum. If nothing else many shops, especially prototype shops will do small runs (25 - 100 parts)

d) You make your die set out of a good quality part, surface coat (gel-coat) that was made for part production. These gel coats are enhanced with ceramic powder, (Alumina Oxide), iron powder, silicon carbide etc. depending on cost and how many parts you want to make) These extra ingredients add abrasion resistance to the surface so the dies will last a long time.

A wooden box will be made to support and surround the part while the pouring of the material is being done and the initial cure is taking place.

The die set is made 1/2 at a time. Once the gel coat is applied to the part and becomes tacky, pour in a very slow curing epoxy. In weights over 1 pound expect a cure time from 1 to 10 days, otherwise excessive heat will build up and ruin the die by causing excess shrinkage or even fire (If you have a moron as a chemist) This will need to be poured 6-12 inches thick depending on the shape of the part being made. The die will have to be larger than the part by 4-8 inches on all sides for strength and to allow the excess area of the part being made to have a place to be. Once this has cured, remove part from initial casting. and turn the first part of the die on it's back with the part side up. Wax the surface of the die half as a releasing agent. Then place sheet wax (Melting point over 150 degrees) instead of the original part of the same thickness of the part, where the original part used to sit.

Carefully brush on the gel coat over the entire surface making sure to relieve all radiuses of any air pockets. (Brushing in one direction will usually work in this case) Once completed and the gel coat is tacky pour in another batch of the properly mixed epoxy compound. Again let cure depending on the amount and size of the part.

Once initial cure has taken place, take a hardness test of the epoxy. it should read 75-80 on a shore "D", Durometer. If possible at this point, slide into an oven at 100 degrees for 3-6 hours. Raise temp to 125 degrees for 3-6 more hours, and finally to 150 degrees for 3-6 final hours. Once die set has come back to room temp (25 C/77 F) Take another hardness reading. it should have hardened up into the 85 to 92 range on the durometer. This will depend on what was used as an elastomer (sp) in the plastic. (This gives the epoxy it's impact resistance. usually it is type of pour-able rubber compound that takes the brittleness out of the cured plastic. ATBN is a common compound used in hammer formed dies)

At this point separate the die set and machine off the back sides until each half is level. Mount each half onto a piece of plate steel as to give a very solid foundation to the plastic die set, and something that can be used to mount the die in the hammer press.

You can start making your initial parts at this point.

I'll writie more is you have some questions. I'm pooped right now.

Take care,

Ty