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  #1  
Old 01-20-2017, 08:37 PM
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Default Viking Coil Over Shocks

Hi guys, I'm new to the forum with my first post. I'm looking for some shock advice on my 69 camaro. I bought the car as a full resto-mod with a LS1, 4l60e, 12 bolt posi, tires 275/35/18 rear, 245/40/18 front, CPP slotted disc brakes front/back, quick ratio steering gear box, and Hotchis Sport Suspension kit- leaf springs, front and rear sway bars, non adjustable shocks. I have another engine, a LQ4 stroked to 402 with ported LS3 heads and intake, FAST 2.0 EFI with traction control, mild street cam and rebuilt 4l80e tranny that my cousin built for me for another project that fell through. After buying the very nice 69 camaro, the plan was to just sell the Lq4/4l80e, but I can't get anywhere near what I have in the motor but now I have someone interested in buying my LS1/4l60e in the camaro and I'm considering swapping the LQ4 into the car. The stroked LQ4 hasn't been dyno tuned but should be at least 550HP. I was told by some folks that since my car will never see a drag strip or autocross track, just strictly a local cruiser and local car shows, that I could get away with just installing Viking DA coil overs up front and Viking DA shocks in the back since I already have a Hotchis suspension kit. However, the majority of people I ask say I should go to 4 link rear. Does anyone have any experience with similar setup that can provide some advice as to whether the Viking shocks would be acceptable to be able to handle the extra HP and tune out any excessive wheel hop and provide decent ride for the way I will be driving it? I just want it to be streetable and be controllable when I do decide to punch the gas on the street, supposedly the traction control on the Fast system should help me too. I realize something like a ride tech suspension kit with 4 link rear and new geometry control arms/drop spindles in front would make a huge difference, especially in drag and track use but I won't be using the car at all in that way. Also, I live in West Texas where curves are as rare as trees! Thanks for any advice!

Michael
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Old 01-21-2017, 11:21 AM
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the Hotchkis leafs spring suspension is easy and works well...and the Viking double adjustable shocks will allow control of both rebound and compression separately and will help you smooth out the bumps and control the ride...

do you have the Hotchkis arms also?
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Old 01-22-2017, 05:54 PM
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I'm not sure about the Hotchkis arms or not. I bought the car with everything already installed. Previous owner said he had the Hotchkis suspension kit installed. Obvious to see the upgraded springs, shocks and sway bars but not sure about the arms. This is my first first gen camaro, so not sure how I could tell about the arms? It was a frame off restoration so all the metal looks pretty much new. So for my application you think I could get away with the DA Viking shocks front and rear and have a controllable car for street driving with 550HP?
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:48 AM
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Have you called viking and ask them?

I know they have a 1st gen camaro with a LS that is quite fast through a auto x course. Also I have a friend that works there that would probably be able to help you out.

If you say that you wont be drag racing or doing track days then my opinion would be to dont build it for drag/track use.

Leaf spring work great on the street and the shocks can be tuned to how you like them.
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Old 01-23-2017, 11:05 AM
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The Vikings should work well. Vikings principles will be at BMR in a few minutes.
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:03 PM
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I did call Viking and they said for the way I would be using it that they thought I would be fine with my stock control arms with their DA coil overs up front and DA shocks in the rear. Tx71Nova, the viking 69 Camaro has a fully upgraded suspension with their coil overs on all 4 corners. Can you ask your friend there if he has installed their shocks on 1st gen Camaro with stock control arms and maybe leaf springs in the rear? BMR, or anyone else, have you installed the Vikings on similar setup and were you happy with the ride and able to tune out wheel hop with high HP engines? I'm glad to hear that folks are saying that this setup might be good for me. I really don't want to have to spend a lot of money for a 4 link and tubular control arms if I'm not going to benefit from all the upgrades. If I decide to stick with the stock control arms and Hotchkis suspension and only upgrade the shocks, are the Viking shocks the best option? Thanks again for everyone's advice.
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:51 AM
marolf101x marolf101x is offline
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"are the Viking shocks the best option?"

I’ll just get it out of the way right now I ran Ridetech Engineering for a decade. I now handle special projects (OE, private label, military, etc), so I’m a bit biased. However, I’ve spent a good part of my life now working on different styles and brads of shock absorbers, so I know a little more than the average guy.
Personally I prefer a “true” coil over, control arms that were designed for and can handle the load and forces, and a monotobe shock absorber.

I believe shocks are one of those items where you purchase the best option you can afford. So, as is typically the case, you start with budget, then research within those constraints. . .or maybe just a bit outside them as well.
If you were talking about autocrossing and a bit more competition, then the search is a little easier as you compare "real" coil over kits to each other. The Viking front kit in question is a "hybrid" kit. It mounts the coil spring to the shock body at the bottom like a traditional coil over, but the spring sits in the OE pocket in the subframe like the original OE suspension. So not exactly a true coil over, though it does give you a few spring rate choices as well as the ability to alter the ride height.

Here's what I like about Viking:
-relatively inexpensive
-allows ride height changes
-decent twin tube shock absorber
-decent valve options for the twin tube

Here’s what I don’t like about Viking:
-lower mounting creates stress on the OE control arm which can result in failure of the arm
-hybrid mounting style creates additional side load on the shock
-it’s still a twin tube (I prefer monotube)
-poly mounts can create noise and may fail prematurely
-limited spring rate options

For what you are doing the Vikings would likely be just fine. . .so long as the valving is correct and the control arm doesn’t fail. Get the valving off just slightly in a twin tube and the car rides rough (as the shock is providing too much compression force at low shaft speeds).
However, if the budget allows I would consider a little more complete front kit that addresses the issues listed above and provides geometry changes as well while you’re there.
The rear leafs can stay; just add the same brand shocks you added to the front. Will wheel hop be completely eliminated? Probably not. . .though it can be greatly reduced. You are still dealing with geometry and physics, you cannot get over that. Then again, you probably won’t notice it on a nearly 100% street cruiser.
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:57 AM
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This is something I wrote for another forum where they were going back and forth between twin tube and mono tube dampers, but I thought it applied here. . . just a long winded, basic introduction to shock absorber design.


Shock design and function is something that will be argued for as long as we own these cars.
Just so you all know where I'm coming from. . . I grew up dirt track racing, using everything from OE shocks, to PRO shocks, to Integra shocks, to Bilstein shocks, to Ohlins.
This is a “nuts and bolts” explanation of dampers. You all decide which is best. . .it’s your money.

Back in the day we (Ridetech) were using Brand "X" shocks and were having issues keeping the shocks together. Though we own a 5HP Roehrig shock dyno, I rented the EMA dyno at Roehrig Enders in Morrsville, NC and spent a few days blowing up shocks to figure out what was going on. We needed the EMA (electromagnetic actuation technology) as our 5HP could only go up and down 2". The EMA allowed us the ability to stroke the shock at any measurement we wanted, and at any speed. . .so I could take a data acquisition file from a street car and “play it back” on the dyno. . .the shock would travel 1/8” in up and down in 0.1 second or less (mimicking going over very small bumps in the road). I could also run square waves, triangle waves, etc (however, that’s for another thread).
What we found was that the twin tube shocks we were using were not allowing the fluid to return to the main chamber quickly enough. This built-up hydraulic fluid would pressurize the shock cap and blow it off with a crap ton of force.

Now, I’m not saying every twin tube is a poor design. . .just that the one I had under test was. We’ve switched back and forth on the dirt cars between twin tube and mono tube a lot!
However, everything I’ve seen in a street car indicates a monotube is much more efficient.

Now, let’s think about shocks. . .their main purpose is to convert kinetic energy into heat. I.E. . . dissipating the suspension movement into heat in the dampers. If the shock valving is equal, it comes down to which design can convert the most amount of movement to heat. However, we must also consider the time variable. If one damper can dissipate a lot of heat, but it becomes “heat soaked”, its efficiency drops dramatically in a short period of time. If another damper can dissipate a lot of heat, and not become “heat soaked” nearly as soon, its efficiency drops much later.

Heat is created in a damper in two ways. . .
1-fluid movement through the piston and valve stack
2-movement of fluid around the damper

Let’s look at the basic design of each version. . .


On the left is the gas charged monotube. . .on the right is the twin tube. I should take a moment and explain most decent twin tubes are also gas charged. Some have a small plastic bag filled with nitrogen that is inserted around the inner tube, some have an actual gas chamber.

Monotube: As you can see there is only one tube. Said tube contains two media, oil and nitrogen gas. These are separated by a dividing piston which can “float” up and down the tube.
As the oil in the monotube is typically held under high pressure (75-300psi) you should think of the oil as a solid column. As the shock moves the oil is not pushed through the piston, the piston is pushed through the oil. The oil, for the most part, stays in the same place.
As the shaft is compressed into the body the volume the shaft displaces must be offset, otherwise the shock would blow up. So to accomplish this the dividing piston floats down the tube, further compressing the gas below it.

Twintube: As you can see there are two tubes, and inner tube in which the piston rides, and an outer tube which is used as a chamber to store excess oil.
As the shaft is compressed in a twintube the shaft volume must also be displaced. The oil is forced through the base valve and into the outer chamber. In the twintube the oil physically turned 180 degrees and passed through a valve. This creates more heat.

Now let’s look at the actual pistons being used. The piston and shim stack of the damper is what is creating the actual shock force, regardless of shock design (though both versions have other valves/ports/orifices that influence the overall shock force).
Here’s an image I pilfered from the Bilstein site that illustrates the size difference between the two pistons:


As you can see the monotube piston is MUCH larger, and therefore theoretically more efficient.


Damping Adjustment:
You will notice Ridetech offers single adjustable (HQ) or triple adjustable (TQ) dampers.
Why only one adjuster? Wouldn’t it be better to have two?
First let’s discuss how a shock handles vehicle tire and body movement.
The job of a shock absorber, when on the track, is that of a timing device. . .nothing more. Its sole purpose is to make sure the vehicle is in the correct orientation for what it’s doing. I.E., if the car is under braking the front shocks need to slow the compression forces just enough that the front tires are loaded, but not so much that the front “smacks” the bumpstop and unloads the tires. The rear shocks are providing just enough rebound force to allow weight transfer to the front while keeping the rear tires on the ground (if they provide too much rebound the rear tires will be physically lifted off the ground and you get the “loose in” wiggles.)
Now, the car has slowed enough that turn in could be made. As the vehicle is turned the force is now trying to compress the outside suspension further. The shocks job is basically the same as listed above, but now the inside shocks are providing rebound force.
After the turn is mostly made, you reach apex. What orientation should the car be in now? As neutral as it can be. Apex is the point at which the force of braking and turning are over and the force of accelerating is about to take place. So you want the car back to neutral. It’s the shocks job to make sure this timing is correct. If the front shocks have too much rebound and the front is still down at apex you’ll have a “loose off” condition. If the front shocks have too little rebound and the front is now in the air at apex you’ll have a “push off” condition.

Though it may seem you need the ability to adjust both compression and rebound this is really only true for the true “track guys”. Most of us mere mortals will only go to a track or high performance driving event 3-5 times a year. That means the vehicle spends 90+% of its time on the street.
When the suspension is compressed the spring is compressed and the shock is providing compression force (resistance to being compressed). So the compression side has the spring to help it slow down the suspension.
When the suspension is extended the spring becomes the enemy of the damper. Not only do you have the physical weight of the suspension being pulled away from the vehicle, but you also have a spring pushing it away. As such you need a lot more rebound force than you do compression force.
Remember, rebound is king!

It is my theory that in a “mostly street with some HPDE stuff” shock you run as little compression valving as you can and a crap ton of digressive rebound. This provides a nice comfortable ride on the street (the compression force of the shock is not inducing extra spring rate) and the rebound, when adjusted toward the stiff side, is plenty to get the timing right at the track. Though it’s not the best overall, it is the best of both worlds with the smallest trade off (trade off being the possibility of not having enough compression at the track. Though this is unlikely and can often be mitigated with spring rubbers).

The monotobe design lends itself to a single rebound adjuster, unless you have a remove reservoir in which case it can then more easily utilize a compression adjuster.
However, remote resis and parts add cost, so most people won’t go that far.

I hope this has been a relatively unbiased explanation of dampers and that you all got something out of it.

I feel once you have a basic understanding of how shocks work you’ll be able to ask the right questions regarding your intended purpose for your car.

This is a basic description of shocks with a bit of a high performance driving slant. If you'd like a more "street" description I can do that as well. Just let me know.
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  #9  
Old 01-26-2017, 07:19 AM
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I talked with my friend at Viking and he said their double adjustable rear shocks for F/X bodys are one of their big sellers.

Also he said you can tune the compression and rebound to tune out the wheel hop regardless of what leafs or HP level you are running and they offer different valving option on top of that to fine tune the overall ride of the rear. The front suspension wont affect the rear suspensions performance for cruising.

Hope this helps
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Old 02-04-2017, 12:53 AM
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I would just caution you about mixing and mis-matching suspension parts. I have seen far too many people end up with suspension components that simply do not play well together. It is easier to get your suspension setup wrong than it is to get it right. IMO, you would be better off with a complete suspension system such as a Ridetech Street Grip or, if you want more performance, a TruTrac system.
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Last edited by TheJDMan; 02-04-2017 at 12:56 AM.
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