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  #91  
Old 08-29-2016, 11:06 AM
WSSix WSSix is offline
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I'm enjoying all this detail, John. Thanks for taking the time to write it and post it.

You're very correct about taking your time with the transition areas on a car. I look into jambs and all areas of the car to see how it was painted. It's such a let down to see a great paint job only on the outside of the car.

Good luck!

Oh, and my car's doors don't follow the contour of the quarter panel either. My front fenders at the top don't transition from the hood to door properly as well. I'm not looking forward to making those areas look correct. Luckily, I don't have the folded jambs at the rear of the doors to deal with.
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Last edited by WSSix; 08-29-2016 at 11:08 AM.
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  #92  
Old 08-29-2016, 01:22 PM
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Great update! Thanx for all of the information...
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  #93  
Old 08-30-2016, 09:46 AM
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Thanks guys! I'll continue bringing this thread up to date.

Earlier in this thread I put the front of one bird on the unibody of another to get a subframe to replace mine. There are two basic subframes for 2nd gen F bodies, one pre and one post catalytic converter to accommodate the changes in the floor pans necessary for the different exhaust. I'm attempting to use a frame from the last year of the 2nd gen production run in a first year car so there were also several other changes made by the factory along the way including a switch to metric fasteners. The old thinking was that a late frame doesn't fit in an early car which it doesn't as built by the factory. However as parts for these cars slowly become more scarce others will find themselves in the position I did. Need a different subframe and none available locally (at the time) that are an exact replacement. Since upwards of 200,000 Firebirds were made every year near the end of the run (nevermind Camaros) the late frames are easier to come by and I suspect others will also want to use one to replace an early one so hopefully this will help some folks.

I'm going to show modifications I've made so I can use the late frame as well as some things I've done to make the frame "better" for my application in my opinion. I'll cover each area of the frame in a different post.

My first task was to be sure the used subframe was square and get some measurements to see if I could make this attempt. I used a couple different Tram Gauges to make sure the frame was square and take measurements comparing the original frame with the newer one so I would know what changes I would need to make. The body mounts for the rear of the frame are farther back in the early frames so next I marked where the frame needed to be drilled out using the Tram Gauge to transfer the measurements from the old frame.

This can all be done with my simple telescoping Tram Gauge and a ruler but I also had a new fancy shmancy really long one with measuring and level features a buddy let me try out. If anyone wants one of the basic ones like I have I can get ya one for $100.00 + shipping from a guy I know who makes them. They're powdercoated/stainless construction and function fine.





[/QUOTE]
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  #94  
Old 08-30-2016, 09:57 AM
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The first step is to drill out the new body mount holes with a 1 1/2" hole saw and then open them up a bit more to 1 5/8" with a carbide bit on a die grinder.



You can see in the pic below that a solid body mount won't sit flat inside the frame because of the sheet metal overlap where the frame is welded together. To fix that problem and strengthen the frame I modified some big washers to be welded in later. a small part of the frame end on one side also had to be trimmed out to allow the subframe connector to slide in later.





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  #95  
Old 08-30-2016, 09:59 AM
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The next item on the agenda for this area is the subframe connector fitment. The SFC's I have are old NMW products from the early 90's and aren't nearly as nice or effective as many of the current offerings. However, I already have them and am waaay over budget so they're going back on and I'll modify things so they're as usweful as I can make them.

The SFC's have a sheet metal part that slides into the subframe as seen below. My feeling is that they could be made stiffer by adding a thick keyed washer to help stiffen them, apply even pressure over a wider surface and clamp them square to the inside of the subframe (where I put the modified washers). The subframe and connectors will be mounted to the car then the washers in the connectors will be tack welded in place. Then the connectors removed to fully weld the reinforcing washers into the connectors. The connectors will be bolted in during this build and I expect sometime later down the road I'll install more modern connectors.







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  #96  
Old 08-30-2016, 10:00 AM
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Now you've probably noticed the deep keyhole in the frame that goes far enough to allow the installation of body mounts in the forward location used by the later cars. I didn't like the look of that strength wise while also thinking it would/could allow some twisting of the subframe. So I decided to add some metal to that section of the frame and kinda got carried away. I boxed the whole section figuring I might as well since I had everything out to do it. Someone with a car only used on the street could just make a plate to eliminate the deep keyhole and be more than good but I'm planning on serious power later and use the car for the strip, road tracks, and hope to attempt 200 MPH at land Speed Races. So I decided overkill is better for me.



The pieces to box the frame were made with the same thickness steel as the original frame and were cut out on a band saw. Then they were drilled for plug welds in areas I knew would have good frame contact and provide strength. Once fitment was determined I removed the pieces and welded the modified washers into the frame, ground them flat, and welded the box pieces on the frame.











With the washers welded in and the frame boxed I then drilled out the new top plate where the body bushings fit. I will trim the body mount between the unibody and frame to make up for the added thickness by boxing the frame. Next topic, subframe/cowl body mounts.



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  #97  
Old 08-30-2016, 10:05 AM
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The body mount brackets welded to the subframe under the cowl have gotten rusty and thin on a lot of 2nd gens over the past 35-45 years. A thick washer modified to fit in the bracket thats plug welded with a couple beads along the sides will stiffen it up. Many of the 2nd gens had no brace for the cowl mount bracket, however WS6 cars had a short brace that attaches to the frame rail and bracket adds strength and some Camaros had a bracket that went from frame rail to body mount bracket to engine crossmember. The frame I'm using was from a WS 6 car so I have the short brackets but I may try the longer Camaro brackets or make my own once the engine is in place and I can check for header clearance.

Frame on the right in the first pic below had a washer welded in previously where the bracket had rusted quite a bit. On the left is my new frame and you can see even though the frame itself has no rust the area where the original body mount was is pitted.







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  #98  
Old 08-30-2016, 12:08 PM
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John,
Have you every thought of attaching the cage down to the
subframe and subframe connectors??? my connectors and rollbar
are all bolted in but very close to each other.. been thinking of tying
the two together to get things more rigid

Bob
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  #99  
Old 08-31-2016, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panteracer View Post
John,
Have you every thought of attaching the cage down to the
subframe and subframe connectors??? my connectors and rollbar
are all bolted in but very close to each other.. been thinking of tying
the two together to get things more rigid

Bob
At the time I had the cage installed I'd considered going through the floor and firewall with the cage. Scope creep had already increased the expense of the safety project by many many thousands of dollars and I was pretty sure my original sub frame was slightly tweaked and would eventually need to come out of the car.

This car kinda evolved slowly over the years after I first got it back around '90 and I didn't do a full restoration initially. Tying the cage into the front and rear frames, adding a knee bar, and a fuel cell with it's own cage may be something I'll do in the future but for now I just want to get back on track. It's been 5 years since I took apart a perfectly good car and I'm regretting taking it apart. It'll be really nice, but I can't have those years back I could have been out enjoying it.
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  #100  
Old 09-01-2016, 07:48 AM
gofastwclass gofastwclass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOT A TA View Post
It's been 5 years since I took apart a perfectly good car and I'm regretting taking it apart. It'll be really nice, but I can't have those years back I could have been out enjoying it.

I completely understand about scope creep adding time to a project, I've done the same thing before. Sadly, I also have a friend building a twin turbo Trans Am that will probably never see the pavement because of scope creep.

Ironically the two most fun cars I've ever built were done with a notepad full of notes before a single bolt was turned. I was on a super tight budget and kept the attitude that anything that came up and wasn't part of the original project (while I'm here upgrades, other people's ideas, etc.) would not even be entertained until the next phase. The next phase was only to be thought about after the car was back on the road.


I love the tutorials on how your updating everything, I do the same thing. This helps people understand normal people like us can build cool cars at home if they can't afford a big name shop.

Last edited by gofastwclass; 09-01-2016 at 08:04 AM.
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