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View Full Version : Easiest Big Power, LS1, LS2, or LS6?


tyoneal
09-11-2006, 02:42 AM
To all:

After reading this forum for quite a while, I have grown to seriously considering putting a LSx Engine into my Camaro. (Despite my old, possibly outdated Bias towards the BBC and the SBC)

Here is my question:

Which Engine, the LS1, LS2 or LS6, would be the easiest platform to build a 750 hp - 850 hp (Probably Turbo Charged) Pump Gas '69 Camaro?

Any and all ideas are Welcome. Has any company that you know of built, or is building these types of Engines?

Thanks again,

tyoneal

ill steez
09-11-2006, 02:51 AM
i could be wrong, but i was under the impression that the LS motors were all based on the same platform, with the exception of some different valvtrain and various different intake manifolds... if thats actually the case, id imagine that an LS1 would be the best bet since they are most common and cheapest, and since you would probably be replacing the intake as well as the cam...

tyoneal
09-11-2006, 05:08 AM
You are probably correct, it would make since that the topend might be what differenciates them.

I'm pretty sure the LS7 is a different beast.

.... but what do I know, that's why I ask.

nitrorocket
09-11-2006, 08:40 AM
There is not one single thing on the LS motors that is similar to a regular SBC, besides haveing 8 cylinders. They have a block that rivals the tall deck Dart block with raised cam, wider rails, tall deck(9.24") etc. The LS1 will blow away any SBC in every dingle cataegory from power, reliability, weight, you name it.
Any motor will make the power you want in a built up stage (i.e. Forged pistons and rods.) The LS7 is the only motor that would make a reliable 800 hp with turbos in completely stock form. All others will need rods and pistons. A typical standard with some porting, new rods and pistons, and good valves can easily make 900-1000 hp on 93 octane with a good turbo setup. Ls1 will be much cheaper then a LS7, they are also much more available. If you are going turbo, just buy an LS1 for $2,500 and change the rods and pistons, you will easily make 800 hp on a mild tune while getting 20+ mpg!

Stuart Adams
09-11-2006, 10:10 AM
Can't go wrong with an Ls motor, go for it.

rocketman
09-11-2006, 12:00 PM
I know the whole world thinks the LSx engine the way to go but,a sbc will still make the horsepower.stock to stock the Lsx is alittle better but when you modify them,the power isnt not much differnet if any.

But with you wanting a Ls the ls7 is the best factory block,next would be a Ls6 which is more available than the Ls7.about a 1/3 the camaro production in 02 used Ls6 blocks.Both engines have to have crank,rods,pistons for that kind of power level.

J2SpeedandCustom
09-11-2006, 12:48 PM
I've seen the stock LS6 with some valve springs take guys into the 700's fwhp range. With some mods you'd easily be able to obtain your goal and keep the $$$ down.

Mkelcy
09-11-2006, 12:51 PM
I know the whole world thinks the LSx engine the way to go but,a sbc will still make the horsepower.stock to stock the Lsx is alittle better but when you modify them,the power isnt not much differnet if any.

But with you wanting a Ls the ls7 is the best factory block,next would be a Ls6 which is more available than the Ls7.about a 1/3 the camaro production in 02 used Ls6 blocks.Both engines have to have crank,rods,pistons for that kind of power level.

I don't have any particular personal knowledge, but my impression is that the head/valve train design on the LSx engines is much better than the 23 degree stuff for the Gen 1 SBC's and that for a given displacement and level of tune, the LSx's will virtually always kick the Gen 1 SBC's rear. Would that it weren't so, since I have a lot of Gen 1 stuff ready to go for a 434 build, but oh well . . .

nitrorocket
09-11-2006, 12:59 PM
A stock ls1 head flows about 280 cfm @.600 lift, not .700 like most sbc heads are rated. A factory ls1 head with a port job will flow 330 cfm int/ 270 cfm exhaust @.600 lift!!! That is insane!! That is with a factory head!

Nobody top date has broken a stock LS1 crank from to much power, I am over 1000 hp and 800 ftlb on a stock crank, aluminum ls1 block, and heads! I made the switch from a tall deck 427" SBC and am still excited about the new motor!!

Stuart Adams
09-11-2006, 01:41 PM
LS motor to me is easy power, easy driveability, and good mileage. Those are big in my book.

camcojb
09-11-2006, 02:12 PM
A stock ls1 head flows about 280 cfm @.600 lift, not .700 like most sbc heads are rated. A factory ls1 head with a port job will flow 330 cfm int/ 270 cfm exhaust @.600 lift!!! That is insane!! That is with a factory head!



The thing that scared me about the stock castings was the thin deck and high boost, so I went aftermarket. Hard to argue with those flow numbers, although a couple big engine builders say they don't flow as much as those companies claim, but still will outflow any 23 degree factory head by a ton.


Jody

syborg tt
09-11-2006, 04:20 PM
If you are going down this road i have a brand new GM FSR LS2 Engine for $3700.00 plus shipping. I was going to buy it for my 2nd project but my wife said she get's half of everything and i can see the kids on weekends.

I said okay i'll wait till project 1 is complete

rocketman
09-11-2006, 04:22 PM
you cant really compare a 15* ls1 to a 23* sbc,but ake a 15* ls1 to a 18* sbc and they are very close,most the aftermarket ls1 heads are 13* to unshroud the valve,sbc 18* and 15* heads flow just as well

I am just say that the sbc isn't dead.

Mkelcy
09-11-2006, 04:43 PM
you cant really compare a 15* ls1 to a 23* sbc,but ake a 15* ls1 to a 18* sbc and they are very close,most the aftermarket ls1 heads are 13* to unshroud the valve,sbc 18* and 15* heads flow just as well

I am just say that the sbc isn't dead.

Perhaps true, but then the LSx engines become much cheaper to build with good power than the 15-18 degree Gen 1 SBCs.

rocketman
09-11-2006, 05:01 PM
I'd agree with that.

Stuart Adams
09-11-2006, 05:08 PM
Just ask Dave Henniger of FAST ( a fuel injection expert). I believe he set a record with an LS1 motor in Florida a couple years ago.


A new corvette gets 25 mpg. is amazing to me.

camcojb
09-11-2006, 05:08 PM
you cant really compare a 15* ls1 to a 23* sbc,but ake a 15* ls1 to a 18* sbc and they are very close,most the aftermarket ls1 heads are 13* to unshroud the valve,sbc 18* and 15* heads flow just as well

I am just say that the sbc isn't dead.


Absolutely not, there is as much potential in a standard small block with the aftermarket goodies. Of course, that can get expensive.

Jody

Mkelcy
09-11-2006, 05:51 PM
Absolutely not, there is as much potential in a standard small block with the aftermarket goodies. Of course, that can get expensive.

Jody
I was chatting with a guy from Chevy High Performance magazine about the LSx versus the traditional SBC last week. He indicated that GM was intent on making the LSx engine the new standard for engine swaps, just as the Gen 1 SBC has been for about 50 years. He said GM will be making a lot of parts (crate engines, cams, heads, short blocks, etc.) available for reasonable cost. Let's hope that's true. I'm thinking quite seriously about returning the SBC haders I got with my 21st Century sub for a set for an LSx.

nitrorocket
09-11-2006, 08:02 PM
you cant really compare a 15* ls1 to a 23* sbc,but ake a 15* ls1 to a 18* sbc and they are very close,most the aftermarket ls1 heads are 13* to unshroud the valve,sbc 18* and 15* heads flow just as well

I am just say that the sbc isn't dead.


My ported factory ls1 heads flow more then my out of the box Dart 18's did at about 1/4 the cost! I love LS1's!! They allow poor people to go fast!!

tyoneal
09-11-2006, 10:16 PM
First, thanks to all who have posted!

True or False?

I have been told that the Iron block LSx engines are the way to go when Turbo Charging over 800 hp if you want good durability. I think the part number is, "LQ4 block".

Patriot Heads for the least expensive, AFR or ET performance at the other end. "Porting the factory heads are just as expensive as buying the Patiot heads"

Recommendation has been for a 408 inch

Any reason why one would not want to stroke it to a 427?

8.0 cr

75 lb. injectors

Does anyone have a web page for, "hk enterprises", in Houston? I have been told that they also make a good LSx Turbo ready engine.

I'm just dumping some information I've found and just trying to get a feeling if any of it is correct.

Thanks,

tyoneal

nitrorocket
09-11-2006, 10:30 PM
Iron block has not proven to be any stronger, unless you are after well over 1000 hp, I would'nt take the extra weight. People have made over 1500 hp and gone 175 mph in the quarter on the aluminum block. I am at 1000 hp right now myself.

Patriot heads are factory heads. they are ported factory heads. TEA are the way to go here.

For low dollar, a 427" motor requires a new crank. Not cost effective. An aluminum block ls1 will be a 347, an ls2 block can go a little bigger on the cubes due to having a 1/10" bigger bore (3.898 vs. 4.00)

75's will be perfect and are the largest high imp injector made right now.

camcojb
09-11-2006, 10:37 PM
If you want more cubic inches the LS2 is the way to go; 402 is an easy stroker combo for that engine. I believe the LS1's need different liners and more mods to stroke.


Jody

rocketman
09-12-2006, 01:46 AM
A Ls1 block will need new sleeves to bore bigger.


I prefer an alumunin block when building big hp engines.

Afr and Trick flow are probably the best aftermarket head out there.

There is no substution for cube's,even when turbo'ed,while I haven't built a turbo motor I have done acouple Lsx style engine they like cubes.

tyoneal
09-12-2006, 02:40 AM
Iron block has not proven to be any stronger, unless you are after well over 1000 hp, I would'nt take the extra weight. People have made over 1500 hp and gone 175 mph in the quarter on the aluminum block. I am at 1000 hp right now myself.

Patriot heads are factory heads. they are ported factory heads. TEA are the way to go here.

For low dollar, a 427" motor requires a new crank. Not cost effective. An aluminum block ls1 will be a 347, an ls2 block can go a little bigger on the cubes due to having a 1/10" bigger bore (3.898 vs. 4.00)

75's will be perfect and are the largest high imp injector made right now.

Nitro:

What are "TEA" Heads?

Thanks

nitrorocket
09-12-2006, 06:59 AM
Like they said cubes are everything. Depends what you want too, My littel 347" ls1 get 20 mpg on the freeway and makes 1000 hp, a 427 I would guess might get 15 mpg and make 1150-1200 hp on the same setup. My old na 427 sbc got 10 mpg on the freeway!! :faint:

TEA (TOTAL ENGINE AIRFLOW) is a very reputable and state of the art head porting company. Good bang for the buck. My motor made 430 rwhp through an A4 with TEA stage 1.5 heads and a tiny 224/224, .581 hydraulic cam. Shop around for specs and prices before you buy any head because I got a kilelr deal on porting at the time. Darts are also super cheap for the money, but I wanted a low dollar setup so I stuck with a factory head. I tried to stick with factory original parts as much as I could, it is less stressfull to beat on a motor knowing it only costs less then $3,000 to completely replace the entire engine if you grenade it! Depends what your budget is.

Diognes56
09-12-2006, 03:08 PM
You might check with Speed Inc (http://www.ls1speed.com/). They like LSx/Turbo/Pro-touring :yes: :) .

Check this out: http://www.ls1speed.com/59/

David

tyoneal
09-14-2006, 01:58 AM
If you are going down this road i have a brand new GM FSR LS2 Engine for $3700.00 plus shipping. I was going to buy it for my 2nd project but my wife said she get's half of everything and i can see the kids on weekends.

I said okay i'll wait till project 1 is complete

Can you give me some more info on the, "FSR", LS2?

Thanks,

tyoneal

tyoneal
09-14-2006, 02:08 AM
Just watched the Video on the Motor Trend Web Site.

That 455 LS2 Turbo GTO Kicked some serious ASS for a Heavy car and one not obviously built for speed like the Ford GT, Viper and Vette.

I guess they re-sleeved the hell out of the LS2 to get that kind of size, right?

It would be neat to see them go to Bonneville and really stretch their legs.

I call, "Shotgun X 5"!!

tyoneal

BTW: Thanks for the company information. I'll take all I can get.

Diognes56
09-14-2006, 08:48 AM
Can you give me some more info on the, "FSR", LS2?

Thanks,

tyoneal

I am thinking he means "factory stock replacement", "full service replacement" or something like that.

Probably looks about like this:

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevySmallBlockV8s/images/cratels2.jpg

If it is what I am thinking it is, $3,700 is a heck of a deal :yes: . I would be all over that if I had the money :( .

David

Project_Gotham
09-14-2006, 12:43 PM
If you get an LS1 I would look for a 2001 and up block if you plan to stroke or go for bigger HP numbers because of the changed oiling system apperently due to hard exelleration/cornering oiling problems. Most 2001+ engines have the LS6 intake manifold too. Don't get me wrong. 1998-2000 LS1's are great. My buddy has a MTI built 99' 427 Ls1 and has not had any oiling issues. I guess the safer the better.
Easy Hp is correct with these motors. On my Zo6 I had a Heads and Cam package with LG Longtubes, TPIS Throttle body, Tune, and got 532 Flywheel, 452 rear wheel Hp.


LS2 are considered gen IV rather than Gen III (Ls1/6) because:

LS2 blocks feature a 4.00" bore, LS1 / LS6 have 3.888"
Crankshafts, connecting rods, pistons and cylinder heads are interchangeable between LS2 and LS1 / LS6 engines
LS2 cylinder heads are made from the same castings as the LS6
LS2 blocks have the knock sensor on the side of the block compared to LS1 or LS6 block that have it in the lifter valley.
The cam sensor has been moved to the timing cover (requires use of LS2 cam gear)
LS2 knock sensors send a different signal type and are not interchangeable with LS1 / LS6
LS1 computer will control LS2 engine, except for the knock sensors.